Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

dustyk

"C & D minivan June 2004 comparo: The 3.8L engine is gutless and won't cut it with the others(Honda, Toyota and Quest) in this class."

Did C&D use the term "gutless," or are those your words?

fish8

If I remember correctly, those were the exact words from C&D.

macakava

Yes and more. Glad you asked.

Here it goes...

Lows:"Gutless engine, flacid suspension, iffy steering, slack back driver's seat"

Verdict: "A great idea(i.e referring to StoGo) sabotaged by tofu mechanicals"

I agree having rented 60 - 70 minivans in the past 2 yrs, mostly DGC with a few loaded new T &Cs at times.

hansienna

WHY don't you rent an Odyssey ?

When people think that the Odyssey, Sienna, and Quest are superior, WHY do they rent the inferior DCG?

macakava

Cannot find one, or a Sienna, or Quest!

Maybe they are too good/unaffordable to rent??

DGCs go for $37.99 daily at Dollar and Thrifty and are affordable. Similar prices at Alamo, Budget. I need the space to take my team to clients. The safety of a mnivan is also a plus.

dustyk

Well, the last T&C I drove was a 2003, I believe. If that 3.8 was "gutless" then I think Car & Driver's perspective is highly skewed, especially if the T&C is only one second slower than the Honda. I guess a magazine like Car & Driver would put an emphasis on speed.

Dusty

fish8

If you drive by any rental lot (Enterprise, Budget, etc...) you will notice mostly domestics makes. It's all about economics. Domestic manufacturers sell their cars for deep discounts (fleet sales) to rental companies. Japanese car companies don't need to discount their products to sell them. Therefore, rental companies don't buy them.

Selling to rental companies helps sell units and for many years it allowed Ford to brag about the Taurus being the top seller in the family sedan category. I know this Ford comment is completely off topic, but I just wanted to make my point.

But, I still love our T&C.....

isellhondas

I also agree, there is nothing wrong with a pushrod engine. GM's 3800 engine is a great example. It's a lot smoother and more refined than Chrysler's.

Still, having a pushrod engine doesn't make for a bad car.

isellhondas

It must be remembered that in many parts of our country, driving a "foreign" car is taboo. That, in itself has a lot to do with this.

marine2

Lows:"Gutless engine, flacid suspension, iffy steering, slack back driver's seat"

Funny, Edmonds says,

"Excellent ride and handling characteristics, good low-end pull from 3.8-liter V6, roomy cabin, nifty fold-flat second- and third-row seats."

New Car test drive . com says,

"On the road, the Dodge Grand Caravan and Caravan offer a smooth ride and responsive handling. These are family-friendly vehicles that offer the features and flexibility most buyers want and there's a model for every budget. Most models come with a powerful V6 engine that delivers strong acceleration for merging onto hectic freeways. Anti-lock brakes and side-impact airbags are available.

Automotive.com says,
" The 3.8-liter V6 available for the Grand Caravan delivers strong power. This big V6 is responsive when merging into fast freeway traffic, accelerating from "intersections, or passing on two-lane roads.

Canadan Online Auto Review says,

"On the road, the Grand Caravan offers a smooth ride and predictable handling. The test Grand Caravan SXT had the 3.8-litre V6 and its power off-the-line or when merging into freeway traffic was impressive."

All of which is the opposite of gutless engine and iffy handling, don't you think?

macakava

C & D is more oriented to testing the dynamics, handling, acceleration, cornering, etc to the likes of energetic, highly spirited drivers. C & D does actual measurements (with actual g's) for acceleration, cornering, slalom with more lead feet than others who try to do similar measurements. So you get the extreme capabilities/limits of the tested vehicles.

Most other testing sources just do their testing with driving impressions and state just generalities and subjective (not objective) comments like you described. This may be adequate for a broad group of people. But for the car enthusiasts in us, irregardless of vehicle types, that is not sufficient.

marine2

Most other testing sources just do their testing with driving impressions and state just generalities and subjective (not objective) comments like you described. This may be adequate for a broad group of people. But for the car enthusiasts in us, irregardless of vehicle types, that is not sufficient.


CR, test of Dodge, verses Honda, on the quarter mile. Honda 16.9 sec. Dodge,17.7 sec. Less than one sec. difference Mac. While I'd admit that the Honda is faster and does a better job passing at higher speeds, you still can not call the Dodge gutless.

macakava

CR does NOT use lead feet like C & D does and their times are always slower for all the same cars tested by both agencies.

hayneldan

Macakava please re-read the post 3748. If you were to put all the so called experts in one small room, they would not be crowded. If you believe the ratings without doing your own comparasons perhaps they could choose a wife or girlfriend for you too,

marine2

CR does NOT use lead feet like C & D does and their times are always slower for all the same cars tested by both agencies.


That is why I could care less what C&D says. We are driving family minivans Mac, not sport cars. Most of us want a van with an engine that will be powerful enough to get us up a mountain without straining, enter a freeway and be able to melt in with the moving traffic. Pass cars that are not keeping up with the flow of traffic. We could care less if it can't out race the car or van next to us. Maybe that means something to you and a few other lead foots, but not to most of us. We are carrying family and friends in our vans and we just want to get them from point A, to point B, safe. I could care less if you beat me there by 30 sec. less. You seem to have a hard time understanding that.

minivanguy

I think 1 second means alot, because that would mean that the odyssey is only 2.3 seconds slower than the hemi powered charger. "2005 models of coarse"

macakava

"That is why I could care less what C&D says. "

As I said in the past, it depends on where you are in the driving spectrum from the "Floridian retiree types" on one end to the "Mario Andretti types" on the other end. It is obvious and I fully understand where each one of us belong.

It does not matter what vehicle type we drive, the energetic spirited drivers prefer the vehicle to have great dynamics/handling and swift acceleration.

macakava

One second is lot to those who understand and appreciate what it means in performance.

macakava

Been married for 31+ years. No divorce in on my side or my dear wife's side, unlike so much of the typical American family. I guess there is that good DNA in both of us!

I have lots of girlfriends and they happen to be those of my many friends who are females.

Maybe you are secretly crying from within for some female company through others?

CR uses statistical data based on their sampling to predict/project their results with a certain level(say 90%+) of confidence. Those who do not understand statistics will certainly be doubters.

hayneldan

"CR uses statistical data based on their sampling to predict/project their results with a certain level(say 90%+) of confidence. Those who do not understand statistics will certainly be doubters." Please provide "any" detail on CR statistical data on what their sampling is. The only FACT that CR reveals is they only send questionaires to subscribers, and no numbers on the number of returns are given. I do understand statistics, having studied it in College.

hansienna

NONSENSE
CR obtains statistics but then their biased writing is not supported by the data they collect. The March 2005 issue article comparing minivans was blatantly biased in the writing on page 53 where they quoted directly from Honda advertising: "A new design makes the Odyssey more crash-friendly". CR will ignore the fact that the Odyssey door flew open in a crash. :sick:
Most Recent Example: August 2005 Small SUV comparison.
CR Test data showed the Ford Escape Hybrid FASTER at 6.3 sec 45-65 MPH than the Honda CRV 6.5 sec.
In the write up CR states "the smooth 160-hp, 2.4 liter 4 cyl engine performs respectably and feels lively ". "The Ford Escape 2.3 liter, 4 cyl and the electric motor combine to make 155 hp. Together they provide mediocre performance ".
CR does not understand the English language. Since when is 6.5 sec "lively" and a faster 6.3 sec "mediocre"? :sick:
CR is NOT RECOMMENDED for purchase because it is an unreliable, biased publication . :lemon:

dustyk

I could go on about Consumers' Report sloppy methodology. I think the most unreliable feature of anything found in CR is their "reliability" data.

The point should be made here that the Car & Driver comments are not the holy grail, and that comments should be taken as a whole by various sources. Here the Honda flagwavers are concentrating on one source to denigrate the Chrysler, which they have to do because Chrysler's the van to beat. Other sources seem to have a much different opinion and are completely ignored. The reason is obvious.

Dusty

bvtesh

I see some interesting posts on this topic - I own 2 minivans (Odyssey EX 99 and a Mercury Villager 93) - occasionally I rent minivans when I get a good deal and have to put in miles. Here are my 2 cents:
The Villager (with the then Nissan Maxima's engine) has exceeded our expectations - 130K trouble-free miles and still a very smooth ride.
Odyssey has been a mixed bag - very roomy, some problems (sliding doors, rattles, unexplained transmission noises, rear wiper gave up a while ago) - all this with about 70K miles on it - all these started after the warranty expired, hence I budget each repair and then handle them. Road noise is more noticeable than in other vehicles.
Ford Freestar - avoid this completely - have rented it twice, including once when I transferred stuff and people from my Odyssey to the Freestar and drove about 600 miles each way - far less room for cargo and for people - uncomfortable, poor handling, poor ergonomics, unsure of what the fixed contraption between the 2 front seats is for.
Dodge - have rented this a few times - uncomfortable rear seats, smooth ride but handling is poor. To use professional lingo, unresponsive engine - feels like a minivan (unlike an Odyssey that feels and handles like a car).
Sienna: Have driven my buddy's Sienna - drives well, would prefer an XLE over lower versions - also, for identical features, Odyssey is cheaper.

In summary, if in the market, would still go with the latest Odyssey. Until then, Villager drives great and will hold on to it, leaving the Odyssey for my wife to drive.

minivanguy

"AMEN BROTHER"!!!

minivanguy

I also like my 2005 odyssey for the safety features, and all the neat little features I get to play with.

dae

Other sources seem to have a much different opinion and are completely ignored. The reason is obvious.

Every single head to head professional comparison of 2005 minivan picked Odyssey as the best one. The reason is obvious - it is a better vehicle.

Motor Trend
Car&Driver
Consumer Reports
Edmunds.com
Automotive.com
MSN Autos
AutobuyGuide
New York Times
CNN/Money
...

List goes on and on. Oh, yeah. It is because small Honda unlike giant union mafia controlled US automakers bought off ALL reviewers.

Yeah. Right.

hansienna

Might be true but 2005 DC minivans outsell the Odyssey by 3 or 4 to one.
There are also more problems reported in Edmund's Town Hall by Odyssey owners :mad: than by the more numerous owners of DC minivans.

macakava

The accollades/awards from all these independent agencies spead for themselves.

What you and I, as engineers, hear from others is background noise that we can ignore. The noise is trying to get our attention, but we know it is a harmless and just a nuisance.

exploder750

CR writeups are subjective opinions and nothing more than that. Sometimes CR's writers are as jaded as your run of the mill writer from Car And Driver magazine. Thankfully the majority get out from behind the magazines and into the REAL WORLD behind the wheel when making a buying decision.

marine2

It does seem we have some real anti American buying sentiments on here doesn't it? That's to bad.We are making some of the best vehicles ever produced by American manufactures the last couple of years and buying American keeps so much more money in this country to create other jobs for more Americans.

nwng

let's not go there, dc is owned by???

So your choices would be the gm triplets and ford freestar :surprise:

masterpaul1

Well, can we say that things are getting heated up in here? I have said this before and stand by it, CR as well as all the other car magazines are just for resource info. only. (Do not let them pick your vechicle for you). According to CR back in their 2003 summer/fall issue and other sources, are 01 DGC EX should have had transmission, brake and electrical problems and was not considered a reliable vechicle. (We bought our van in Sep. 2003). Well, are van is over 4 yrs old now with just over 60K and the only none maintenance issue we had was both front power window regulator motors needed to be replaced back in Sep. 2003. The only thing that really holds true with all of these car magazine opinions is when they do a two year study on the vechicle to see how it holds up in real life situations. I'm sorry, but I can't tell how reliable a vechicle is just from one test drive to which I don't believe they can either, even though that is there profession. I received more helpful and reliable information from people like you and me posting about their problems and solutions here on Edmunds. Edmunds is as close as one can get to real life situations that people experience in everyday life.

marine2

let's not go there, dc is owned by???


True, although there are still many American companies that own stock in Chrysler through their pension and 401-K plans, along with about 20%-25% individual ownership of their stock.

It's just not GM& Ford vans. There are many people out there that wouldn't think of buying an American car. I own a Honda Civic now, but it's the first foreign car I have ever owned. Even though we like it a lot, we wouldn't think twice of buying an American car or van the next time if it was priced right and had the features we wanted. I sure wouldn't swear off on owning American.

marine2

I'm sorry, but I can't tell how reliable a vechicle is just from one test drive to which I don't believe they can either, even though that is there profession. I received more helpful and reliable information from people like you and me posting about their problems and solutions here on Edmunds. Edmunds is as close as one can get to real life situations that people experience in everyday life

I will agree to that. I think most people are honest when they come on here and post their problems. I am sure there are a few that don't fit that bill. But Edmonds does seem the best for information.

hansienna

Agree with masterpaul and marine.
Our 2002 T&C LX has had only regularly scheduled oil and oil filter changes plus the engine air filter was replaced at 32,870 miles. Brake pads still have many miles left and it has required no front end alinement. Front tires are wearing evenly so there is no reason to rotate tires. No transmission service recommended for 100,000 miles unless it is driven over 50 % of the time when temperature is 90 F or above. :shades:
Our experience is typical of the majority of the numerous owners of DC minivans.

socalawd

According to CR back in their 2003 summer/fall issue and other sources, are 01 DGC EX should have had transmission, brake and electrical problems and was not considered a reliable vechicle.

Well here is what CR says(2005 buyers guide) about the 2001 GC now. I don't have 2003 data sorry!!

Transmission- Above average(2-5% with problems)
Brakes- Below average(9.3-14.8% with problems)
Electricial- Average(5-14.8% with problems)

So in your case CR is right on. You have to be aware that new cars are very reliable.Its pure statistics. If with brand A 2% of people have a issue and on another brand B 10% of people have a issue. Than its 5X as likely to have this issue with brand B. Still 90% of brand B buyers have no issues at all. You are a very small test sample(1) be aware results vary the larger the group the more true the stats. I really wish CR did it by telling the sample # and percentages in tenth of a percent. But for now this is the best we got. Or you can put your head in the ground and yell those guys are biased!! They hate(place you favorite brand here)!!!

masterpaul1

Well here is what CR says(2005 buyers guide) about the 2001 GC now. I don't have 2003 data sorry!!

I have the 2003 summer/fall CR report, if any body is interested.

hayneldan

From CR own site,

Autos Editor Rik Paul

Deputy Editor Cliff Weathers

Senior Editors Jeff Blyskal, Gordon Hard

Coordinating Editor Jonathan Linkov

Associate Editor Eric Evarts

These SIX people call the shots on the ratings and still no data on the size of the so called statistical sampling! No person or engineer in their right mind would hold their findings as factual.

socalawd

Might be true but 2005 DC minivans outsell the Odyssey by 3 or 4 to one.
There are also more problems reported in Edmund's Town Hall by Odyssey owners than by the more numerous owners of DC minivans.

Talk about statistical nightmares. You get a very small amount of traffic per vechicle sold and the same people are always posting. The real number is more like 2.5 to 1for DCX to Handa minivan sales. The posts for reviews 2005 on the car pages are 67 for dodge van + 113 for chrysler vans for a total of 180. Honda has237 33% more than DCX even though they sell 40% of the DCX van total.
BTW look at the last 4 reviews of the Dodge if you took then as gospel I'd be afraid to drive a dodge. Is this what really going on with dodge I doubt it but small numbers of the same people can make infrequent problems look big. Here is a taste(cut and pasted to make my point of course LOL) from the Dodge Grand Caravan review most recent 4 reviews.

1.The second seat cupholders are poorly designed and placed. So far only 13.1 miles per gallon city, the same as my previous SUV V-8 which had all the amenities. For the high cost, this vehicle appears stripped and is not a good value.

2.Have had a few minor problems with trim coming off after only 2 months. Front bumper cracked, how, I don't know, no marks. The dealer said too bad, no warranty, $750 repair. I would have bought the Odyssey, but Dodge came in $5K less plus 0% financing for 5 years.

3. Our 2005 Grand Caravan sxt has had to have the air conditioning repaired. We also had to have new plugs and wires and the software upgraded on the computer. It also has a whine around 50 miles per hour.(Dealer has heard noise, design flaw, no fix as of yet) I am very unhappy with this van, we bought a new van, not a used one.

4. This is the first vehicle I've purchased. I waited a long time for it! All was beautiful until the driver's side sliding door opened while I was driving at 40 mph! I think it may have been a factory defect. Then later the door would NOT open when I was parked!

Wow damn that looks scandelous. But in fact its a statisticial lesson. The edmunds town hall may be one of the worst ways to see whats actually going on. Don't you think!!

dustyk

I agree. And I know a little something about statistics, too. the fact is that Edmunds and CR are unsolicited surveys. Statistical theory has always accepted the fact that unsolicited surveys elicit input on a emotionally linear basis. People with strong opinions either way are much more prone to respond to Edmunds and CR's survey questionnaires. It is also accepted that people with negative opinions on a subject will respond at a greater rate that those with positive opinions. This is known as a bias.

Most unsolicited research accommodates bias in some objective way, usually by producing a norm factor from a test population of solicited research. CR not only violates sound statistical principals by not conforming their data base numbers, as a few posters here have pointed out, but they do not have a norm factor to compensate for the statistical distortions noted above. In the case of the forum information especially, you are very correct.

However, the unreliability of unsolicited survey results cannot be confined. It will be universal since the statistical methodology itself is flawed without anti-bias adjustments. I have seen this first hand, I might add. I was and have been until a little while ago, involved in fleet management for a large US corporation. Our service fleet contained (at one time) approximately 8500 vehicles (US & Canada). In the late seventies we saw a huge failure rate of transmissions on Chevrolet Impalas. The problem was with the then THM200. Consumers' Reports at the time, and for a number of years afterwards, listed the transmission problem as "average" on this car.

In recent times we witnessed just the opposite. For a while Consumers' listed transmission problems as "much worse than average" on Chrysler mini-vans. However, for the very years they were reporting we found that our Dodge and Plymouth mini-vans were experiencing transmission problems at a rate almost identical to the Ford Aerostar, and even less than our Chevrolet Astros, two vehicles that did not fare as badly as the Chrysler versions in CRs supposed "reliability" data.

As to the opinions of various automobile enthusiast publications, this is all very subjective. As a couple of people here have demonstrated, opinions vary to complete contradiction on the Chrysler mini-vans. One can argue that the weight of the number of magazines proves something, but does it? Are the opinions of professional opinion givers more valuable than ordinary people without the benefit of being published? If so, remember that when the weight of opinion is against yours.

What I've been seeing here in this forum is about 99% opinion and unfortunately, about twenty percent ego and moral superiority.

Dusty

dennisctc

I didn't see any Six-Sigma proof in your response, and I know of quite a few OHV engines that are still going strong after 150,000 miles and still have not had major repairs. I'm

I had a 1983 Chevy Cavalier, put 190k trouble free miles on her...just normal stuff - plugs, wires, brakes, battery, muffler...and a starter.

I scope out the DCX problem chats....you see a lot of "got 150k miles and need tranny", or other high mileage issues. I still see many of the kcar based DCX vans on the roads.

Now think of the Japanese cars you see on the roads???? 80s, 90s?? They've all gone to heaven

I have to admit I love German cars....I can look at an old BMW and still appreciate it's classic lines and proportions. I look at old Japanese cars like Supras, or Celicas, or Previas and just see weird looking designs (like the current Impalas!!)

socalawd

What I've been seeing here in this forum is about 99% opinion and unfortunately, about twenty percent ego and moral superiority.

Wow Dusty 119% now if only I could get that out of the technicians that work for me!!!
I try and be as open about how I look at issues as I can. We are all baised in some way!! I bought the Honda for the standard safety features and the driving feel/comfort. Dodge wasn't on my list had a 2001 with some issues and there was no VSC on the 2005. I think even CR says dodge is improving and the difference between a great reliablity car and a poor one is getting very fine. On a great one maybe 99% of people have no big issues the first 3 years and on a bad one maybe 90% on people have no big issues the first 3 years. I know 3(2 others on my street) other people(+ myself) with 2005 Odyssey with no problems. But I'll see on here, hey there's no posts on the Dodge board, that's because people are driving there car HAHA!! The Dodge has things going for it Stow and Go and lots of packages. But no sunroof with side airbags(strange). I like my choice and would make it again tomorrow(3000 miles later) I do wish they had put in a big center console instead of the flip up thing. DRL's would be nice and the interior is too nice(thanks for pointing that out marine) but I'm getting used to it!!! Go test drive them both people and pay attention to whats important to you. A car you like you will keep much longer. That in itself will save you money. If you want to keep the car for 4 years or less the dodge may be the way you want to go. I did it and have only minor regrets.

marine2

My only regret is that I should have leased this Dodge minivan so that when the lease was up, the new model Dodge will be out. Since I bought it, I am sure I will keep it for at least 5-8 years.

The car I traded our Honda Civic in for, was a 1993 Eagle Vision. The air worked on that up to last year. Outside of normal maintence, I put in new motor mounts and a crank sensor. In 11 years of owning the Eagle, I had less than $1,000.00 in repairs. Before that, I had a 1988 Chrysler New Yorker. Only thing that went wrong with that was the automatic A/C control. Fixed under their Crystal Key warranty.

My brother has a 2001 Plymouth minivan. He replaced the brakes last week. So we can't complain about Chrysler products so far.

The Honda Ody, is a very nice van with some very nice features. It was just too nice for what I wanted to use my van for and it didn't have the features that I wanted on a minivan. Like the stow-n-go, under seat storage and the overhead console. If the Dodge had not had them on there, I would have kept my pickup truck. I don't think you can really compare the two vans. They are made to do different things. What is important to many Ody owners are not important to many people that bought the Dodge/Chrysler.

hansienna

Ody EX and GC SXT are very comparable in content - size and features.
2005 Ody EX MSRP is $28,710 while the 2005 GC SXT MSRP is $27,725.
Actual purchase price: 2005 Ody EX about $ 26, 400 while a GC SXT is now about $21,000 after $2,000 cash incentive, $3,084 employee discount and dealer discount of $1641.
That $ 5,400 difference would increase about $ 300 to 400 in less sales tax, many $$$$ less in finance charges and more than compensate for the higher rate of depreciation of the GC SXT vs Ody EX.
If you have unlimited financial resources, buy the Ody Touring with all the options or the loaded Sienna XLE and spent twice as much as for a GC SXT. :confuse:

mrblonde49

Actual purchase price: 2005 Ody EX about $ 26, 400 while a GC SXT is now about $21,000 after $2,000 cash incentive, $3,084 employee discount and dealer discount of $1641. "

Dealers are giving additional discount on top of the employee price and rebate? That was a quote you got, or an estimate? That's a pretty sweet deal then...

macakava

Chrysler plans to use Lee Iacocca(with an unspecified handsome sum of cash) with his above subject quote to promote their employee price offer soon.

But this is exactly what we owners of Ody, Sienna, and Quest have done! This is stale news!

Have a great weekend!

dustyk

"Wow Dusty 119% now if only I could get that out of the technicians that work for me!!! "

I obviously meant 20% of the 99, but my wording was less than careful. I'd have thought an engineer would have figured that out, but, shame on me!

masterpaul1

I obviously meant 20% of the 99, but my wording was less than careful. I'd have thought an engineer would have figured that out, but, shame on me!

I did and guest what? I'm not an engineer. He! He! He! You all have a blessed weekend.

hansienna

Add all of you up for any year and your total number of these 3 minivans does not approach the number of DC minivans sold in that year
Must be nice to belong to a small club.

marine2

There is no putting down the Ody, Sienna, and Quest. They do what they're made to do very, very well. And look good doing it. It's just that they don't do enough for a lot of us.