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Manual transmission in 2011 Porsche Cayenne anyone?

Comments

  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
  • Because I consider MT lot more fun compare to AT. Porsche is one of last manufactures offering MT SUV in U.S.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Manual transmission....Fun...??? SUV...??

    In a sports car, yes, YES, but in a 4500lb SUV....NOT...!!

    "..last manufactures offering MT SUV...

    That's mostly because the clear majority of SUV's sold in the US are "base" FWD vehicles. Many of those SUV's are purchased for wintertime on-road stability and driving dynamics.

    Regretably many of those are patently UNSAFE FWD, and/or maybe F/awd for a little safety re-gain. Throw a manual transmission into that mix and most driver's would be operating at death's door a lot of the time.

    VW has a new technique that I expect will dramatically improve the safety factor of FWD stick shift vehicles. VW will automatically "up-rev" the engine if the driver inadvertently downshifts to a level that results in so much engine compression braking that traction is lost.

    So we may soon see a resurgence of vehicles with manual transmissions, especailly FWD and/or F/awd vehicles, if the VW technique is widely adopted.

    FWD alone is quite bad enough
  • Well it is a matter of opinion. I don't like to drive AT as you just sit behind the wheel doing nothing. I like to feel the car and be connected with it. I'm not saying it is for everyone I was just trying to find any owners who made the choice.
    I have M3 now and lots of people question why BMW sells manual if you can have better performance with paddles.
    For me AT Cayenne is no different from Buick. Its the transmission that makes the difference and I'm sure I am not alone as they still sell it.
  • rodutrodut Posts: 343
    k1200r for you, driving is a passion. You can be emotionally "connected" with the car. I bet you hear noises nobody can hear, and feel if there is a problem with the car before anybody else. Me, I am the same. I agree that A/T Buick or A/T Porche are the same thing, from a real driver point of view.

    But we are a dying breed. These days people want computers to do the driving for them. The multiple layers of software between them and the road made them numb. They don't feel anything anymore. The passion for driving was replaced with the passion for gadgets. They are delighted to see that a f...ing computer preaccelerates the VW engine when they downshift. The new Volvo XC60 computers are supposed to brake the car without driver intervention. Why in the world are they doing that ?!?! For safety ?!?! Is it safe to convert the drivers into numb puppets, unable to feel anything ? Unable to decide in a split of a second what must be done ?!? That's wrong people ...

    First, the pleasure of driving dissapears. "Driving" becomes "transportation". Second, the skills of the average driver will become scary. Especially here, in Canada, on snow and ice, having numb drivers all over the place is scary.

    And what about computers malfunctioning ?? They tend to do that after a number of years. Imagine cars braking or steering by themselves all over the place ! VSC computers may steer the car !
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "...preaccelerates..."

    No, the system is purely reactive, it only up-revs the engine once a downshift actually results in wheelskid.

    You want to see more manual transmissions in the market...?

    FWD and/or F/awd especially...??

    Then they have to be made safer for the average John Q Public that hasn't a clue.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    My wife has established a new rule...

    If we're taking the Porsche for a drive then I must take it out first, alone, and get "it" out of my system and then come back and pick her up. Strange rule since she's as "bad" as I am behind the wheel given the opportunity.

    IMMHO the only reason for a stick shift in an SUV, HEAVY SUV such as the Cayenne, is for FE. Now that torque converters are being eliminated that argument is no longer valid.
  • rodutrodut Posts: 343
    My knowledge could be obsolete, but I don't know:
    _ what IMMHO means ?
    _ what FE means ?
    _ what has the torque converter to do with a manual transmission ? The torque converter is a part of an automatic transmission. It slips to allow smooth automatic gear changes. Or it locks to save gas. There is no such part in a manual transmission.

    Basically what I was saying is that computers replacing us makes life crappier. Driving becomes transportation. At the limit, if computers will become smart enough to drive the car without any driver intervention, then riding your Porche will be exactly as exciting as riding a bus (driven by somebody else).

    Is it exciting to ride a bus ? Do you say: "oohh man ... today I rode a bus ... it was soooo exciting ..." ? Does it matter if it is a Buick bus, or a Porche bus ?? You are sleeping in it anyway !
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    edited November 2010
    In my most humble opinion.
    Fuel Economy

    "..The torque converter is a part of an automatic transmission..."

    Not any more....

    The new dual clutch, DSG, automatic transmissions do not use a torque converter so that loss factor is eliminated.

    "...Driving becomes transportation..."

    Yes, and isn't that nice...!
  • rodutrodut Posts: 343
    edited November 2010
    IMMHO the torque converter was worsening the FE because it was slipping. The "new dual clutch" will slip too (this is what clutches do !). Anyway, I really don't care how automatic transmissions work.

    About driving becoming transportation, no that is not nice. The passion dissapears. Transportation (by bus, or by a computer driven car) from point A to point B has nothing to do with passion. What kind of life is that when there is nothing to be passionate about ?!

    That reminds me my old Volvo 240 station wagon. It was the car I loved the most. Pure passion. And if you search the web you will see that legions of people loved it to death. I drove it for about 10 years even if the engine power was laughable. It had absolutely no f...ing computer, anything was so simple that I replaced parts by myself many times. I remember drilling holes in the interior door panels to bypass broken electrical cables ! Try to fix or modify something on a Cayenne electrical system ! There is absolutely no way you can play with the damn computer on wheels. I think you are pretty young, and have no clue what kind of pleasure / happiness / passion you can feel when really playing with a car. And "playing" sometimes didn't even require removing it from the garage.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    I was 70 in July and my earliest "driving" experience was behind a team of mules pulling a busting plow or harrow or what have you. Graduated shortly thereafter to Farmall, AC, Deere, and Ford Ferguson tractors.
  • rodutrodut Posts: 343
    Man ... so your spirit is still young ...
    Good for you.
    So I was wrong about your age.

    I tend to be the common older guy, and regret the past. I definitely had my moments of pure happiness fixing those simple cars. And the noise of that 4 cylinder engine barely able to push that brick ... I get melancholic when I remember it. It's a pity I didn't tape it. Sometimes I still go on brickboard.com to see how they are fixing those old bricks (the 240s and 740s were affectionately called "bricks").

    Cheers
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Probably my most fun keeping running and driving was a 4 cylinder/stick shift Sunbeam Alpine, little "sister" to the Sunbeam Tiger bought back in ~66 and gave away 3 times.
  • I am looking for one in the North east--any prices --who would be a good dealer?
  • lednameledname Posts: 23
    edited December 2010
    About 3 months ago my wife and I went into a Porsche dealer and were told that you could not get a manual in a Cayenne. The Porsche website will still allow you to configure one with a manual. Does anyone know with certainty whether a manual is truly available on this vehicle? Like others, my wife and I treasure the manual transmission. We had one in her BMW X3 and had to turn it in before the next model year was available (though they don't offer a manual in that now either)...so we are stuck with a very unpleasant MDX and are thinking of biting the bullet on it if the Cayenne is available with a manual.

    Thanks in advance...
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Just ordered a base Cayenne, manual transmission. Based upon the configuration I ordered (normal options), my dealer has agreed that if I don't like it after it arrives, I don't have to take it. But based upon my previous drives of a manual transmission Cayenne GT-S, I suspect I will find it to my liking.

    I'm 53, my wife is 51 and other than our current MDX, neither one of us has ever owned an automatic. Prior to the MDX, we owned an Isuzu Trooper 5-speed. It was a dog, but the automatic version was an even bigger dog.

    With regard to the Cayenne, the price savings ($3k+) is significant, the performance advantage (.5 sec 0-60) is noticable, the FE is better in real world driving, and, frankly, with the Cayenne's weight reduction and improved handling, it will be more fun to drive. Not a replacement for my 911S perhaps, but better than a slushbox.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "...the FE is better in real world driving..."

    Sorry, but no...NOT.

    There is just no way the average driver, REAL-WORLD driver, will be constantly attentive enough, is even interested in being constantly attentive enough, to attain the FE level of any modern day 6(10) speed automatic transmission.

    With the advent of more robust torque converter lockup clutches automatic transmissions now spend the clear majority of drive time with the lossy torque converter bypassed, a SOLID connection between the engine and the "gearbox".

    And just try and replicate the new coastdown engine fuel cut, fuel starvation technique using a manual transmission. Hint: You'll need to add a switch so you can manually STARVE, COMPLETELY STARVE, the engine of fuel during coastdown periods. And then you'll need to constantly downshift the transmission "incrementally", avoiding a "too" significant level of engine compression braking, to keep the engine turning over so when it comes time to restore fuel flow....

    Oh, for the days of yesteryear......
  • eliaselias Posts: 1,923
    there's no need for a manual switch to ensure ZERO fuel delivery on over-run/coast-down condition, no matter if it's a manual transmission car or automatic.

    I understand the zero-fuel-delivery during over-run/coastdown feature has been standard on fuel injected vehicles since as early as the 1970s, independent of manual vs automatic transmission. For esample, my 1989 chevy with 5-speed-manual definitely had that feature - it was described specifically in the owners manual and in various old GM documents available online.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    edited January 2011
    With a manual transmission how might the factory design engineers ascertain themselves that a FULL fuel cut during coastdown periods would not result in a COMPLETE engine stall and therefore use of the starter motor, or a clutch "dump" ("push" restart), upon the need to restart...?

    With an automatic the factory engineer "is in control", with a manual it would require the driver to be cooperative with executing the incremental downshifting.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,161
    I think the zero-fuel on coasting is the least of the variables when comparing...

    Manuals and automatics almost always have different final drive ratios... It's like comparing apples and oranges.. The application on different vehicles would be different... For instance, on my wife's car, the auto transmission will downshift when coasting down a long slope, requiring the driver to apply throttle to maintain the current speed... I can put my manual in 5th on the same hill, and coast with no throttle, maintaining speed.. That's just one example... I'm sure there are plenty of examples on the flip side..

    Stating that one or the other will always result in higher real-world MPG is just a guess...

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    edited January 2011
    You're missing the point.

    First, the presumption is that if you lift pressure completely from the gas pedal then you are doing so to enter coastdown mode, with an expectation that the vehicle will begin slowing. With an automatic transmission the designers then have the option of improving FE via full fuel cut and keeping the engine from stalling via incrementally downshifting the transmission as roadspeed declines.

    "..requiring the driver to apply throttle to maintain the current speed.."

    Not if the downslope is "enough".

    Just as in your own example there is an equivalent speed, and down slope, wherein your wife's automatic will also coast downhill with no speed declination. The exception being if she should happen to step on the brakes, even ever so slightly. In that case the shift pattern switches to "help slow the vehicle" using engine compression braking, more aggressive downshifting, rather than a simple fuel cut coastdown.

    "...Manuals and automatics almost always have different final drive ratios..."

    Stuff of legend....

    No more.

    These days the only time the torque converter is in the drive "loop" is during acceleration, if the brakes are being used, applied, or the roadspeed is so low the lockup clutch MUST be disabled.

    You may have noticed that while 6(10) speed automatics are now common, with 8(15) speed automatics not uncommon, manuals seem to be stuck at 6 speeds, passenger vehicles only.

    How many of us would wish to "stir", CONSTANTLY stir, a manual transmission with 10 forward speeds, let alone 15, in order to keep the engine RPM at the most optimal(***) insofar as FE is concerned.

    *** Lowest engine RPM, lowest frictional component, wherein the engine just barely produces enough "go" to maintain the current desired speed. CVT is IDEAL, otherwise the more gear ratios the better. But, to me, 8(15) (Lexus LS) does seem a bit beyond reason.
  • We test drove a Cayenne (again) yesterday. The used car manager was not on-site to appraise our MDX so we had to wait until Monday. Just got an e-mail from the rep saying he can't order any more manuals during this model year. You can still spec one on the Porsche website...very disappointed.

    I was wondering which dealer you ordered yours from?...I want to contact them. I will also call another dealer around here.

    Thanks!
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    edited February 2011
    Sounds as if you need to find another dealer. Porsche model change over is in late fall, September....

    Try carsdirect.com

    MDX is famous for torque converter failures and dealer is likely to be aware of that.

    What is your reasoning for wanting a manual transmission Cayenne..?

    It's an SUV, not a 911....
  • We have always liked and driven manual transmission vehicles. Our 2008 BMW X3 was a manual and my wife, the primary driver, loved it. The X3 was not available when her lease was up and neither was the Cayenne base so we opted for the MDX. It was a huge mistake...the handling is just not the same.

    Anyway, the Cayenne was supposedly the only German SUV available with a manual...though apparently it isn't.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    With the newer automatics yeilding better FE than a manual I don't think I'd ever buy another manual except in a true sports car wherein it will be "constantly" enjoyable.
  • Everyone has their personal preferences. We prefer / enjoy a manual regardless of the type of vehicle (we don't live in a heavily congested area).

    The other local dealer in our area was able to swap an "allocation slot" with another dealer such that they could order a manual for us. We are now deciding if we want to wait 4+ months or just get an X3 or X5 in 5 weeks.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Wait...winter is almost over.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,161
    You can't get a manual in a new X3.. guessing that you can't get one in an X5, either....

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This discussion has been closed.