Postwar Studebakers

Mr_Shiftright

It's too bad that Studebaker didn't pair up with BMW instead of Benz. There might have been some interesting cross-pollination, since Studebaker was building relatively compact cars and not luxury barges. BMW very nicely found a niche under MB in the "sport sedan" which no American company had the vision to fill for a long, long time.

fintail

That would have been interesting to time - I don't think BMW had much of a lineup before 1962 or so, they might not have had much product to sell. The pontons and fintails, while not huge volume leaders, at least were some material to sell, along with the glamorous SLs.

I think MB tried to buy out BMW around 1959-1960, and got pretty close, too.

uplanderguy

fintail and I have discussed this here before, but I think the Studebaker that most apes a M-B sedan in concept is the 1963 Cruiser. Add the optional Skytop, disc brakes, and broadcloth interior, and that's a Lark-based sedan I'd be absolutely delighted to own today. The largest Stude parts vendor owns a black one with Skytop and red broadcloth, but I've never seen it. Supposedly originally bought by a lady who in her advancing years started parking it by 'feel', so it's got dings here and there. It's on his list to finish up. I'd love to see it.

uplanderguy

http://www.autolit.com/Store/1963-studebaker-cruiser-original-factory-photo.html

fintail

I can definitely see a MB link with the styling and those European style features (fintails had discs by then, you also had the choice of a couple cloth interiors, and sunroof).

uplanderguy

I think the car is elegant in profile; something not expected in a domestic compact from 1963.

omarman

Would the '63 Cruiser have been a direct competitor to a Falcon Futura sedan back then?

Mr_Shiftright

fintail said:

That would have been interesting to time - I don't think BMW had much of a lineup before 1962 or so, they might not have had much product to sell. The pontons and fintails, while not huge volume leaders, at least were some material to sell, along with the glamorous SLs.

I think MB tried to buy out BMW around 1959-1960, and got pretty close, too.

One of BMW's Quandt brothers was Josef Goebbels stepson. That might not have been a good marketing ploy in early 60s America or a good association for Studebaker.

Reminds me that Studebaker had to drop the "Dictator" name in the 1930s, for obvious reasons.

fintail

Chevy also had the "Confederate" in the 20s. These days, both names might find a market

MB had some negative historic associations too, and made it. I think BMW just didn't have enough of a product line to work in a distribution partnership like MB.

Mr_Shiftright said:

One of BMW's Quandt brothers was Josef Goebbels stepson. That might not have been a good marketing ploy in early 60s America or a good association for Studebaker.

Reminds me that Studebaker had to drop the "Dictator" name in the 1930s, for obvious reasons.

uplanderguy

Probably would've been cross-shopped with a Falcon or possibly a Fairlane 500 4-door sedan.

I am fully-aware that styling is totally objective, but I can't stand the droopy rear wheel openings almost every car was using back then.

uplanderguy

Here's an ad I'd posted here a few years back I think--'63 Lark with disc brakes versus '63 Falcon. Not fair, as the Lark has whitewalls and wheel discs, and of course the Falcon is the bottom-of-the-line version, but the styling difference is considerable--MHO only. Of course, there is no doubt that the Falcon outsold the Lark many, many times over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYW7YkVLBDw

ab348

Mr_Shiftright said:

Reminds me that Studebaker had to drop the "Dictator" name in the 1930s, for obvious reasons.

The current issue of Collectible Automobile has a lengthy and good article on the Dictator. Seemed to do well for the company and had some nice styling.

uplanderguy

I bet that Dictator article was written by Richard Quinn. He is the foremost authority on prewar Studebakers.

omarman

uplanderguy said:

Here's an ad I'd posted here a few years back I think--'63 Lark with disc brakes versus '63 Falcon. Not fair, as the Lark has whitewalls and wheel discs, and of course the Falcon is the bottom-of-the-line version, but the styling difference is considerable--MHO only. Of course, there is no doubt that the Falcon outsold the Lark many, many times over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYW7YkVLBDw

Even though this disc brake ad was all about Detroit compacts, muscle cars in the 60's typically had terrible brakes. I recall seeing our local Chevy dealer selling 396 SS Chevelles with drum brakes in 1968.

isellhondas

fintail said:

It may just need a servicing. Becker NA is still around, based in NJ I think, and they refurbish old radios. My fintail has a Becker Europa, and I had them rebuild it about 10 years ago - wonderful job, and not insanely expensive.

I would strongly advise to keep the original radio if you plan to sell the car in the future, MB enthusiasts are really into Becker radios.

I can believe the SLC is 3900 lbs, it is built like a tank. My Bluetec is 4200 lbs, which is more than my old W126 S-class which felt like a tank.

isellhondas said:

This 450 SLC I just picked up has the original Becker "Mexico" radio. I'm not impressed with all of the static!

Oh, I know I'll sell it. It was a spur of the moment purchase that I just couldn't pass up. It is so nice I'm actually afraid to drive it. NOTHING has been changed or modified and the old guy who had it kept hand written spreadsheets of every nickle he put into it. I saw one recently that someone had slapped on a set of those hideous (my opinion) chrome wheel lip mouldings that go about two inches onto the fenders. Not my cup of tea but I guess this was a fairly popular addition!

Maybe they make fender shirts and continental kits for these!

fintail

Yeah, those fender moldings are awful, a lot of people dislike them, and they are rust nests in harsher climates. I think they were pretty popular in the 70s and 80s though. If you keep away from major repairs, maybe you'll stay above water. A radio renovation might be $200-300.

No skirts or continentals for one, but I think US spec models, early cars especially, could be ordered with whitewalls.

isellhondas said:

Oh, I know I'll sell it. It was a spur of the moment purchase that I just couldn't pass up. It is so nice I'm actually afraid to drive it. NOTHING has been changed or modified and the old guy who had it kept hand written spreadsheets of every nickle he put into it. I saw one recently that someone had slapped on a set of those hideous (my opinion) chrome wheel lip mouldings that go about two inches onto the fenders. Not my cup of tea but I guess this was a fairly popular addition!

Maybe they make fender shirts and continental kits for these!

ab348

That poor Falcon...

Seems like competitors liked to use Ford products as bad examples in comparisons back then, as epitomized by this Corvair Rampside vs Econoline pickup film:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrhCAiV7diY


The GM A-bodies had front disks optional until the '72 model year. Not at all uncommon to find a 4-4-2 or GTO in those years with them. They weren't even particularly good ones either, using 9" drums.

Mr_Shiftright

I think the Lark was a much more solid car than the Falcon. The early Falcons were so tinny and cheap you could destroy one with your bare hands. Everything in it felt like it would break if you weren't careful how you touched it.

omarman

ab348 said:

That poor Falcon...

Seems like competitors liked to use Ford products as bad examples in comparisons back then, as epitomized by this Corvair Rampside vs Econoline pickup film:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrhCAiV7diY


The GM A-bodies had front disks optional until the '72 model year. Not at all uncommon to find a 4-4-2 or GTO in those years with them. They weren't even particularly good ones either, using 9" drums.

My dad liked the Corvair so much that he bought 2. First was a Corvair van for his business and then a Corvair Monza for my mom. Far as I can remember both Corvairs had drum brakes all around and never was a problem - either for the van or Monza. Lighter cars handle and brake better.

But Edmunds points out in an article called Are Small Cars Safe? : It's a matter of physics: Bigger and heavier is safer than smaller and lighter. Large vehicles weigh more and have longer hoods and bigger crush zones, which gives them an advantage in frontal crashes.

uplanderguy

I've seen that Chevy video where the Falcon pickup about stands on its nose during a panic stop, LOL.

ab348

uplanderguy said:

I bet that Dictator article was written by Richard Quinn. He is the foremost authority on prewar Studebakers.

That's who it was.

uplanderguy

I am fully-aware that styling is totally objective

Duh, meant 'subjective' of course. Sorry about that.

fintail

I see those later Larks as more comparable to an "intermediate" Fairlane than a Falcon.

Mr_Shiftright

I wouldn't say "totally" subjective. I mean, there are some basic design principles in good styling and there are some cars that are regarded rather universally as ugly by just about everyone.

What we consider today as "classic looks" for instance, were really car companies playing it a bit safe. Many people might think a GT Hawk as nicely styled, but few would regard a '58 Packard Hawk as such.

uplanderguy

Packard Hawks usually sell for more than GT Hawks, condition-for-condition. Go figure.

fin--I think unlike other compacts, Larks were built on two different wheelbases--109 for two-doors and 113 for four-doors. Those early Fairlanes were 115 wheelbase I'm pretty sure, but too lazy to check. Don't know what Falcon's wheelbase was.

uplanderguy

We had a '62 Fairlane when I was a kid. It was the car that swore Dad off Fords for life, LOL.

uplanderguy

Early sixties Falcons have 109.5 inch wheelbase; a half-inch longer than two-door Larks of '62 and later but shorter than four-door Larks of that iteration. Early sixties Fairlanes have a 115.5 inch wheelbase. Just looked them up.

fintail

I remember looking at a Fairlane with my dad, who liked to dabble in old Fords, sometime in the early 90s. It was an oddball, a 62 "Sport Coupe", which was a faux hardtop - chrome window frames, but not a true hardtop. It was in OK condition, and I think he could have picked it up for a few hundred bucks, but passed. I think it had a 221 or another small unusual V8.

Falcons, 4 doors especially, always seemed kind of downmarket to me. I remember sometime in the mid 90s, visiting my grandparents, and my dad was talking about one of his cars (the 68 Fairlane, I think). My grandpa mis-heard him and thought he was talking about a Falcon. He replied with "you don't want a Falcon, those are terrible cars" or something similar. I like the 63 Sprint hardtop though.

uplanderguy

I think the '63 Falcon Sprint hardtop is a nice-looking car. I don't really care for the '64-65 at all. I actually kind-of like the '66-69 two-door Falcons, which are rarely seen.

Speaking of '62-63 Fairlanes--I like the Mercury Meteor two-door hardtop of '63, but talk about a car you hardly ever see.

fintail

I remember looking at a 63 Sprint hardtop when I was 15, it was languishing under a carport, and I dreamed of it being my first car. The owner wouldn't sell, was keeping it for his son (who lived far away) to "restore someday". Several years later, the owner passed, and the property was emptied, never saw it again. The old guy who owned it was friendly and liked to show off the car, anyway.

63 Meteor is kind of an odd design, pretty big fins for that year, IIRC. Even here where cars age well, those are unknown now. I remember seeing a weird 60 Comet around town years ago when I was a student, and there's a 62 4 door HT in town I see once in a blue moon, Mercurys from that era are really obscure now.

uplanderguy

Your Sprint story reminds me of a guy from Indiana who is the original owner of a light green metallic '64 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with factory Avanti power (non-supercharged), bucket seats, floorshift automatic (PRND21), disc brakes, etc. I always admired the car, even though I didn't love the color, whenever I saw it at meets out there. When I was between Studes six or seven years ago, I actually found the car and his name in a club magazine that showed cars and owners that had won awards at the last national meet, and cold-called him. He was very polite but not wanting to sell. The next year I saw the car and he and his wife, probably in their eighties, at South Bend and said "I'm the guy who called asking about your car last year". The wife piped up, "Our grandson is getting it". I thought, "Does he even want it?". LOL

Mr_Shiftright

uplanderguy said:

Packard Hawks usually sell for more than GT Hawks, condition-for-condition. Go figure.

fin--I think unlike other compacts, Larks were built on two different wheelbases--109 for two-doors and 113 for four-doors. Those early Fairlanes were 115 wheelbase I'm pretty sure, but too lazy to check. Don't know what Falcon's wheelbase was.

Lots of unattractive cars sell for a good deal of money--that doesn't make them any prettier. I guess they are bought for the shock value.

fintail

I wonder what happened to that Falcon. It was pretty nice, just needed a good detail. Someone saved it, but I suspect it wasn't the owner's son. I bet we pulled up in the 60 Country Sedan when my dad went and knocked on the door (different era even 25-30 years ago, my dad had no fear to do that, it's how he got the 60) and the old car caught the Falcon owner's eye. A neat old car can charm people, I think.

The Falcon I looked at was red on red with a 260, and all the normal Sprint trim. I don't recall it having rust or any apparent damage, but as typical for old red cars, it needed a cut and polish. I remember the owner showed me the original hubcaps, which he kept in the trunk so they wouldn't be lost or stolen.

uplanderguy

RE.: The Packard Hawk--Largely a function of my age, but I like Gran Turismo Hawks best of all the Hawks. But I find the Packard Hawk much-less egregious than probably half or more of what was being sold domestically in '58. At least it's not slathered in brightwork. The interior is superb I'd say.

uplanderguy

Your Dad knocking on the door, fin, reminds me of a story involving my father-in-law, still with us and only 19 years older than me. He spent a lifetime in sales, selling gaskets to GM and other companies. He truly does like people. I give him credit for that, as I find myself saying only half in jest, "I hate people", LOL!

He grew up in Rochester, NY but spent some summers as a teen at his aunt and uncle's place in near-to-us Sebring, OH (maybe 45 mins. from us). His relatives owned a pottery and he often was assigned to run the day's deposit to the bank on his bike. The pottery burned down in 1961 and was not rebuilt. When he was visiting us two or three years ago, I asked if he'd like to drive out to Sebring on a pleasant Sunday afternoon. He said 'yes'. He remembered the street his relatives lived on and knew the house as soon as he saw it. He went up and knocked on the door! The current owner didn't let him in but they did stand at the door and talk for ten minutes or so. I wouldn't attempt that, LOL.

berri

This is like a tennis match: Studebaker-Ford-Studebaker-Ford-Studebaker

uplanderguy

It is the "Postwar Studebaker" page.

fintail

My dad was pretty gregarious. I remember at least 10 instances of him knocking on a door because of a car (always a Ford) he spotted. He was never ran off or had a door slammed, but the story was usually "going to restore it someday" or "its going to my kids".

That reminds me, several years ago I was visiting an area I lived in as a little kid, and drove by our old house. The current owner was out doing yardwork, and I couldn't help but stop and have a chat. I didn't try to get into the house (it had been significantly altered in the intervening 30 years, and I could tell wasn't the same anyway), but even talking to someone these days, especially in the cool PNW, isn't always a thing.

uplanderguy said:

Your Dad knocking on the door, fin, reminds me of a story involving my father-in-law, still with us and only 19 years older than me. He remembered the street his relatives lived on and knew the house as soon as he saw it. He went up and knocked on the door! The current owner didn't let him in but they did stand at the door and talk for ten minutes or so. I wouldn't attempt that, LOL.

fintail

So MBs of the same era can fit in, and a Ford here and there never hurt. GM gets all the love elsewhere

uplanderguy said:

It is the "Postwar Studebaker" page.

ab348

Knocking on the door sometimes works though. In the early 2000s that was how I sold both my Delta 88 and my Electra Park Avenue, just with strangers seeing it parked and asking me if it was for sale.

fintail

That's how my dad got the 60 Country Sedan - we had noticed it parked near a house, it hadn't moved in a long time, so my dad just went and asked. The owner almost seemed surprised that anyone would want it.

uplanderguy

My comment was tongue-in-cheek to berri about it being the "Postwar Studebakers" page. Years back I was told to cool it about Studebakers on the "...spotted" page.

Mr_Shiftright

Not everyone on Edmunds gets their own playground.

uplanderguy

I'm special I guess, LOL! Thanks!

berri

I find it a bit curious how Studebaker gets a lot of attention, but little on other orphans. My guess is this is because Studebaker has a strong, loyal owner base that keeps interest in the products. AMC products have a fan base and old car shows too, but I think that base has let it slip into Mopar. Problem is, many Mopar loyalists have little interest and consequently AMC seems to just slip into confusion. Sometimes I think that if Pat Foster ever retires from Hemming's, AMC history will fall into oblivion.

uplanderguy

I think my interest in Studebakers originated with there being a dealer I can recall in my hometown; plus I remember the cars and trucks themselves as daily drivers--mostly '60's ones. Plus, I do remember hearing when they shut down. My Studes have often been mistaken for AMC's over the years by the great unwashed (!), which for some reason I don't take as a compliment! I do think the '63 Rambler was a good design; I also like the original AMX, late '60's Ambassador two-door hardtops, and the funky '74-78 Matador coupes. For some reason though, I usually think AMC interiors disappoint. Nothing more than MHO though.

The rumor is that Chrysler destroyed all leftover NOS AMC parts. I don't know how true that is. As I've said here before, for late Studebakers especially, the amount of NOS leftover is amazing. I didn't know it when I got into Studes, but it's a great benefit.

berri

AMC had some "funky" interiors in the 70's too! Studebaker and AMC were both survivors after the mid 50's shakeout. They also both had designers who knew how to work magic with little money at times. I admire that. I think AMC management was smarter at the end though. While Studebaker was sidetracked with Packard (but did have the Lark in development), Romney focused on differentiating Rambler from the Big 3 offerings by strategizing it as a more economical alternative. Being fair though, Rambler was a car in a better position to take on Chevy and Ford sedans. Later AMC management got Jeep (but maybe too early to benefit). Having said all that, I think both likely got a short term lift from the economics that favored downward pricing in the latter 50's which helped them survive longer than the rest of the independents (eg. Studebaker's early compact Lark and AMC downsized Rambler along with having the compact American). One interesting thing about Studebaker is the ongoing discussion whether Studebaker's diversification into other products like STP created additional cash flow to keep them afloat or took away management focus on car product. I believe it did both, but regardless I always found the late 50's/early 60's an interesting history in the North American auto market. The Edsel is another interesting story during that era which includes Packard's Nance, but that is another story...

uplanderguy

Although these vehicles probably didn't add much to their "survivability", I always liked that, unlike AMC at the same time, Studebaker had a couple specialty coupes, a full truck line, and performance options. But AMC certainly significantly outsold them in the early sixties in the more-mainstream models and bodystyles.

By late 1963, all of Studebaker's subsidiaries were making money except the auto division. The divisions allowed the company to stay in business while discontinuing cars and trucks. It is said that the board disagreed with president Sherwood Egbert on remaining in the auto business. But Egbert was ill with cancer and was replaced on Monday, November 25, 1963 by Byers Burlingame, a finance guy who started with Packard in 1925. It was Burlingame who announced both the closure of South Bend and a few years later, the Hamilton, Ontario plant.

uplanderguy

That black '66 Daytona Sports Sedan on BaT sold for $10,750.

I'd say someone bought well. I sold mine for $12.5K in 2012 and it wasn't as nice as this car.

There was some chatter on the SDC forum about the wrong color headliner (supposedly) and the fact that the trans didn't match the build sheet, which did strike me as unusual on so otherwise a supposedly low-mileage car.

I love the red vinyl factory seating in that car. Same seating design as in my Cruiser but all-vinyl.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1966-studebaker-datona-sports-sedan/

uplanderguy

Studebaker National Museum posted this picture yesterday on Facebook--1962 photo of Newman and Altman, the smaller of the two downtown South Bend Studebaker dealers at the time--only a couple or three blocks away from each other. Newman and Altman were Packard dealers starting in 1937; became Edsel dealers; then picked up Studebaker in 1959 but they became very active in Studebakerdom, acquiring the rights, building, and parts to continue building Avantis in 1965 which they did until the early eighties. They also ended up with most of Studebaker's NOS parts inventory. It appears this dealer did not sell M-B but I know that Freeman-Spicer, the larger dealer downtown, did.