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Compact Sedans

Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,850
Here's the place to discuss and compare vehicles in this class. Feel free to suggest additions to the make/model list - I just added a few to get us started.

(Note: the Cruze selection isn't working, but will be added when it's fixed)

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Comments

  • overbrookoverbrook Posts: 275
    The bottom line is you can always get a used luxury car for the price of a new car in the mid 20s. Thats not an issue that is specific to loaded compacts. You could argue there is no point in a base model Accord or Malibu when a 5 year old luxury car could be had for the same money. People want new cars and they buy them. They want a warranty, they want the latest styling and features and they want something that isnt likely to need repairs for years. Its silly to compare the price of any new car to an older car.

    The average family sedan with an automatic doent get mid 30s on the highway, more like 33mpg. With the Cruze you can get 42mpg and with the Elantra and Focus you can get 40mpg. Thats quite a bit more than 33mpg in my book. The 3 has been a well equipped compact for many years now and it has succeeded in the US. There are always cheaper models of the Cruze and focus for people who want them but automakers feel there are many folks who dont agree with the idea that you should miss out on features just because you buy a small car. German luxury brands offer most of the same features on all their cars regardless of size- now GM and Ford are doing the same thing.

    I dont consider the average $25k family midsize sedan "well equipped". A power seat and CD player dont count as well equipped in my book. If you skip GM's overprice nav you can get a Cruze with leather, sunroof, power seat, premium sound, back up sensors, USB port, heated seats, auto climate control, etc. for under $25k. Thats a pretty well equipped car for that amount.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    edited January 2011
    Its silly to compare the price of any new car to an older car.

    A lot of people are "silly" then, as this comparison of a new car to a used car (with more equipment, luxury, etc.) happens all the time.

    You say the "average" midsized car gets 33 mpg highway. OK, let's assume you are correct about that. The average Cruze does NOT get 42 mpg highway. Any Cruze on the road today gets mid-30s highway (we are going on EPA ratings, yes?). The average new Elantra does get 40 mpg highway (EPA). Focus... let's see what the EPA ratings turn out to be. So not much difference between an average mid-sized (I4) car and the average Cruze in highway fuel economy.

    We will have to agree to disagree on what is well equipped. IMO a mid-sized car with leather heated seats (front and back), moonroof, auto climate control, Bluetooth, 17" alloys, and many other features is "well equipped" and can be had for just over $25k MSRP. If that is not "well equipped" to you, fine.

    It's really a very simple point I am trying to make; not sure why there is so much consternation over it. The point is, the higher the price of a car, the more alternatives there are at the same price or below. Not so many good options for $15k-20k. But lots more at $25-27k. Many buyers (myself included) have a particular budget in mind when shopping for a car and will consider any car that meets or exceeds their needs within that budget--compact or mid-sized, hybrid or non-hybrid, new or used. Not all buyers shop like that, but I believe many do.
  • overbrookoverbrook Posts: 275
    Ford really hasnt released any weight figures for the Focus to my knowledge but if its close to the weight of the Cruze I dont see any way it can exceed the Cruze's mileage by a large margin. The Elantra is about 300lbs less than a Cruze LTZ and that is one of the main reasons it can hit 40mpg without any special features. I dont see any way the Focus will be matching the 29/40 of the Elantra when the Fiesta gets that mileage and weighs hundreds of lbs less than the Focus. My guess for the best Focus is around 27/40 with other models getting 37-38mpg on the highway. Let's not forget the Focus has the largest standard engine in the class and the most hp in class. Getting 40mpg from a 2L engine is no small task.
  • overbrookoverbrook Posts: 275
    Who said the LTZ would be the volume model for the Cruze? I surely didnt. All your assumptions are based on the LTZ trim which is probably going to be the lowest volume trim for the Cruze. I dont think there is a HUGE market for $27k Cruzes or $26k Mazda3's or $28k Focus' BUT that doesn't mean they shouldn't be offered. If you personally don't like loaded small cars, don't buy one. I don't understand why anyone would take issue with automakers even offering these cars. Again, not everyone WANTS a midsize car so the fact that you CAN get one for the same price as a Cruze LTZ may not matter to some folks. I've seen 3 LTZs on the road so far so someone is buying them. I also pointed out the Focus (and to a lesser extent Cruze) offer features that some midsize sedans dont offer so its not as simple as saying "I can get a larger, better car for the same money".

    You are oversimplifying things to support your argument that there is no market for loaded compacts. I also take issue that people shop on price only and don't care about features. Sure I can get an Accord for $25k but what features will it have vs a Cruze LTZ? Those who need backseat space may go for the Honda, but those who dont care about rear seat room may opt for the car with more features and more up to date technology. I know few people that set a price target and then shop for "any car" that can be had for that amount with no regards to the individual merits of each model.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    edited January 2011
    Who said the LTZ would be the volume model for the Cruze?

    No one did. I am glad we can agree on something... Chevy will sell few LTZs.

    If you personally don't like loaded small cars, don't buy one.

    I never said I don't like the idea of a loaded small (economy) car. I just don't like the idea of paying $25-27k for one when there are so many other good alternatives.

    You are oversimplifying things to support your argument that there is no market for loaded compacts.

    And you are putting words on my fingers. Please point to the post(s) in which I said there is no market for loaded compacts. I never said that. What I said is that a compact economy car (albeit with many options) priced at $25-27k faces a lot of competition because of the price bracket it's in. I have tried to explain that idea a few times now. I'll stop trying.

    I also take issue that people shop on price only and don't care about features.

    Again, I never said people shop on price ONLY. What I said was (and getting tired of having to repeat myself so much here), many people shop for cars with a certain budget in mind, and they will consider all vehicles that meet their needs within that budget. "That meet their needs" is the key phrase here... it says that price is NOT the only factor in the decision. But it's a key factor.

    Here is a 3rd party opinion, from C/D's review of the Cruze in their January 2011 issue, that echoes my opinion on this subject--just to show I am not crazy nor the only person with this opinion:

    As it is, our as-tested $25,460 LTZ makes as much sense as raisins on a Ritz. If you've got that sum tucked away, please tell us you're test-driving Accords, Optimas, and Sonatas...

    P.S. Re your comment stating the only reason the Elantra gets 40 mpg is because of its lower weight and no other special features... the weight savings is responsible for only 10% of the fuel economy improvement in the 2011 Elantra vs. 2010. For details, please see:

    http://www.hyundaiusa.com/about-hyundai/news/Corporate_2011_Elantra_Compact_Seda- - n_Release-20101118.aspx
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,963
    I didn't say the Focus would exceed the Cruze mpg by a "large margin". I said they will probably come in a little better than the Cruze even though Ford has been touting 40mpg hwy.

    For example, the Prius weighs a few hundred pounds less but has hugely better mpg. I know it's a hybrid, but my point is that weight is not the only determining factor in MPG. If I carry a fairly heavy passenger in my car does my hwy mpg automatically drop 3-4 mpg? Hardly. There are many factors in gaining mpg so emphasising weight(plus or minus) as the main reason just doesn't tell the whole story. Gearing, aerodynamic drag, tires, engine size, engine type AND weight affect hwy mpg. I would argue that aerodynamic drag and gearing affect hwy mpg more than weight does. Weight probably weighs(no pun intended) more heavily on the city mpg.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    Toyota Corolla
    Kia Forte
    Mazda3
    Mitsubishi Lancer
    Nissan Sentra
    Suzuki SX4
    Subaru Impreza
    Volkswagen Jetta
    and of course the Cruze when it is possible to add it

    We did have an "Economy Sedans" discussion (actually still do)... maybe that one should be shut down in favor of this one? I think the purpose of that one was to discuss cars like Civic, Corolla, Focus, Elantra, ...
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,850
    edited January 2011
    i will toss some of those up there (remembering there's' a limit to the # we can list).

    That discussion is appropriate, but decided since some vehicles have been added, others are outdated, and the price range listed isn't really up-to-date, it'd be easier to start fresh than tinker with that one.

    (edit: Forte is broken for now too)

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  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    Is the limit 9? If so, I guess once the Cruze and Forte are added that will be a good list. The others (Impreza, Lancer, SX4) don't have nearly the market share as the ones on the list although the Impreza in particular is a very nice compact and sells pretty well.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,850
    Yeah, it's 9. I picked the ones that are most commonly discussed around these parts. The Impreza is a good seller, but kind of a niche crowd, meaning I don't see it bandied about with other makes/models when discussing purchasing options. It's kind of in a class by itself... you pretty much decide to buy a Subaru, or you're deciding between all the others. Plus, we've got a pretty good Subaru Crew where folks can get info on that vehicle.

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  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    I dont see any way the Focus will be matching the 29/40 of the Elantra when the Fiesta gets that mileage and weighs hundreds of lbs less than the Focus

    Ford is claiming they will get 40mpg on the highway, with some sort of SFE package like the Fiesta. The Fiesta w/o the SFE package gets 38mpg, IIRC.

    Also, rumor in Mazda land is the 2012 Mazda3 i with the SKY-Active 2.0L will get 40 mpg hwy and 30 mpg city with HP/TQ numbers not really known yet.

    It seems that 40 mpg hwy for a compact is the new standard.
  • This is great! The 9 models included are the top picks in the segment and should make for some interesting discussions. The 2012 Ford Focus is the "wild-card" right now. I believe the new 2012 Civic will be out by fall also. Great! This is no longer economy sedans - North American car buyers now have some strong options in the compact class. I love the Jetta TDI but boy those babies can get pricey!

    Cheers!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    FWIW the Jetta TDI starts in the same range as the Cruze LTZ (no options), and I would expect the Focus also. So pricing not that out of line for the class, albeit at the upper end of the class.

    With the improving FE of the newer compacts and the high price of diesel fuel, I wonder about the economic value proposition of the TDI though.
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Posts: 573
    edited January 2011
    The Jetta TDI does? Base price on a Jetta TDI with an auto is $24,900. The Cruze LTZ? $22,700. Loaded the Jetta's $28,400. The Cruze LTZ? $25,900.

    Maybe in the same mountain range as a Cruze LTZ; but a lot higher.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    Base price of the Jetta TDI starts at $23k. Not VW's fault that the Cruze LTZ cannot be had with a stick shift. ;)
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,850
    Well, *I* Consider $2K difference to be within the same "range," as stated, and the claim seems true also considering that backy ended with "So pricing not that out of line for the class, albeit at the upper end of the class."

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  • My point being; our resident Hyundai fanboy thinks the VW Jetta TDI is not pricey. That was my comment (that the Jetta TDI is pricey) when he stated it's similarly priced to the Cruze. It's not. TDIs average $25K out the door. Cruzes average $20K. Now if you're willing to buy a Hyundai? They're cheap. No arguement there - cheap is as cheap does.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    edited January 2011
    Thanks for telling me what I think. You completely misread (misunderstood?) my post. Maybe go back and read it again? Then you will see I wasn't talking about average out the door prices. (Although I would be interested to learn where you got the average out the door prices for the Jetta and Cruze.)

    If re-reading a post won't disturb your mud-slinging activity, that is!
  • sandman_6472sandman_6472 Coral Springs, FLPosts: 2,640
    I guess this would make you one of two "Cruze fanboys"? An interesting thought...objectively speaking!

    The Sandman :) :sick: :shades:

    2014 Hyundai Tuscon SE/2005 Mazda 3s/2008 Hyundai Accent GLS/2009 Nissan Versa SL hatch

  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Waleska, GeorgiaPosts: 791
    It's not quite up to the 40mpg mark, but the 2011 Kia Forte LX/EX with the new 6-speed automatic are rated at 26/36- 36mpg highway ain't too shabby! The EX 4-door with the Fuel Economy Package and 6AT is rated at 27/37mpg.

    I also noticed that the Forte EX and SX 4-door are only available with the 6-speed A/T for 2011. The base LX 4-door and the EX and SX 5-door are the only models available with the 6-speed manual. The 6MT reduces the MPG ratings to 25/34 compared to the 6AT.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,850
    Considering the personal comments and sniping all over various sedans discussions lately, I'm contemplating banning the next person who uses the word "fanboy." It's juvenile. It makes absolutely no point whatsoever, and is right there on par with "I know you are, but what am I?" as a clever comeback. Enough.

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  • puffin1puffin1 Posts: 276
    edited January 2011
    I don't see an Elantra with a 138 HP engine and a little heavy competing with a fiesta or a focus for torque, and fun to drive.
    So the fords get about 4 miles less a gallon,big deal.
    . What about a Hyundai's resale value? Does the Fiesta come with rear drums I think so.
    Hyundai's always have been under powered. I can't wait to see the Volster. Another dog from Hyundai. It's too bad ,because their styling is good and they have sort of a Ford sync offered in the newer models.
  • puffin1puffin1 Posts: 276
    Jeff if your on here ,please tell me what engine will be in the new VW Polo. A 1.4 liter 79 HP can't be true.
    TY
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    FYI, the 2011 Elantra has 148 hp--more than almost every other car in the class. Also, the Elantra took first place in its class in the 2010 ALG Residual Value Awards with the highest projected resale percentage value of any compact car.

    Not sure what you mean by the Elantra being "a little heavy." A little heavy compared to what? It's considerably lighter than the Mazda3, Corolla, Sentra, and Cruze, and only 30-40 lbs. heavier than the 2011 Civic and Focus (M/Ts). Will the new Civic and Focus be a lot lighter than the current designs?
  • Ford does not list the Focus's weight. The width is 71.8 which does not seem compact at all. Also all Focus sedans have low profile tires as does the Limited Elantra. The low profile tires are noisier, bumpier and have less snow traction. Why do these car companies think everyone who wants a higher trim or in all cases with the Focus a bumpier, noisier ride? Mazda does the same with the 3S. I rented a hatchback and it was very noisy and I felt every bump. I prefer a smoother ride but anyone who wants heated leather seats in an Elantra or heated leather seats and a more powerful engine in a Mazda 3 is forced to get these tires.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    I suppose you could swap out the 17" wheels on the Elantra (or other compacts) for the 16" alloys from the GLS Preferred package, or even 15" wheels (except if you want alloys in 15" size you'd need to go aftermarket). I'll bet the dealer would swap the 16" wheels at no charge. ;)
  • puffin1puffin1 Posts: 276
    edited January 2011
    Yup, I goofed. I was interested in the Elantra for a few years and gave up on them beacuse of the 138 hp, didn't know they went with a 148hp/ I had a Mazda 3 I new Value 2008 and it had an auto tranny 4 spd. and cheap RSA Eagles on it. Those tires will kill you in rain or snow. You can't buy that car today. Mazda
    forces you to up grade.The I New Value came w/sunroof, 6cd and moonrooof.
    Also, what's with no lumbar support. I dumped it with 12000 miles on it and got twice the car in a Golf. Multi level heated seats like my BMW and grab bars,and moonroof, lumbar support and Bluetooth 177hp 5spd. I get 34 highway 24 city. I paid $15,500 less than the cars I tried. VW and it had a nicer cockpit and amenities of an Audi hard to find multi level seats w/ lumbar in a Ford, Cruze or most sub or compact cars.. Think Fiesta would have grab bars nope.
    I sure like the looks of the Elantra and know many repeat buyers.I didn't know they finnally put some ponies in there. Thats what held us back.
    We have a BMW and Wifes Lexus IS and wanted a fun winter beater. I tried Fiesta, Cruze,Kia, and Civic all egg beaters. I like a car with no road, ,or engine noise. :shades:
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    If he were to go to 15" from 17" the profile of the tire would have to go up or else he will end up with higher rpms which would probably affect FE.
    He would also have to have speedo speed sensor adjusted, or replaced.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    " I tried Fiesta, Cruze,Kia, and Civic all egg beaters. I like a car with no road, ,or engine noise."

    I thought the Fiesta and Cruze were known for their lack of road and engine noise? I agree about the seat in the Cruze tho. Lumbar was noticeably missing. Plus the seatback dug into me at shoulder level, which exasperated the lack of lumbar. Have almost ruled that car out because of the seat. I'm surprised that no one else has commented on that aspect of the seat yet. I am average height.
  • sandman_6472sandman_6472 Coral Springs, FLPosts: 2,640
    We haven't driven one yet & with my severe spinal issues getting worse of late, that's the 1st thing I notice...the drivers seat. Took my kids Versa for some warranty work this morning and sat in a 2011 Versa S seat & was truly amazed at how nice it is. I could just slide over like in a minivan and the new fabric was grippy yet of good material that should last a long time. No falling into the seat with this car which I do in my Civic even with a seat cushion. Hoping we find another seat as good as the Versa's when we start our search. Hoping the Buick version will fit the bill as well as the Elantra.

    But the car is for the wife...I only use it to put in petrol & have warranty/maintenance work done. She drives when we go out due to my spinal issues & the worsening sciatica. :(

    The Sandman :sick: :shades:

    2014 Hyundai Tuscon SE/2005 Mazda 3s/2008 Hyundai Accent GLS/2009 Nissan Versa SL hatch

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