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Compact Sedans

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  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,898
    Right. For someone that likes to tell everyone else what they should buy he doesn't even know the difference between a sedan and a coupe. Somebody says they want a sedan and he comes back with "you should try this coupe". For one thing a lot of people will absolutely not get a coupe because they don't like the big, long heavy doors and the crawl into the back for occassional guests.

    This thread is about compact sedans and now he comes up with a 2dr coupe that has a small interior which results in the EPA labeling it a subcompact. Who considers the EPA the final authority? I don't think Ford is marketing is as such and nobody in their right mind thinks the Mustang is a subcompact car......except the EPA. He shoudl try exterior dimensions and see how much it resembles other subcompact cars.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,629
    There's several compact (even sub-compact) sedans with mid-sized interiors per the EPA, including Cruze, Elantra, Forte, Sentra, and even the sub-compact Versa. But these are considered COMPACT sedans because of their exterior dimensions.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,707
    The EPA sets the size classes in the U.S. as well as what they are defined as. The auto makers willfully chose to ignore the government regulations. They might be considered compact by some consumers, but they don't actually determine that. The Government does.

    It's simply that the auto makers are making larger and larger bloated pigs and want to make their whales appear as the "new compact" class. Well, I'm not buying it.
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,218
    They aren't "regulations"; automakers are not held to a law that says a vehicle must be X size. The EPA size classes are just a relatively simple way to classify vehicles. The classification system should help consumers, businesses, and government agencies.

    Consumers get an easy way to compare vehicles of similar size; businesses and agencies can use the metrics for determining fees (example: tax smaller cars less), internal procurement program requirements (ex: lease compacts for staff, full size for executives/elected officials), reimbursement schedules (ex: compacts are the allowed rental class; employees pay any upcharges to larger classes), etc.

    As to them being bloated pigs, in my case it's a good thing. With my wife currently shopping for a compact, this has been the first generation of compact-ish cars that I can find a comfortable driving position in. Normally the driver seat run out of rear travel & I have to recline the seatback to be semi-comfortable, but now cars like the Cruze & Elantra have more than enough seat travel. I can now leave the seatback more vertical, which is not only more comfortable but is better for spine health.

    If you refuse to buy anything in the "new compact" class, there are plenty of sub-compacts on the market. Fit, Yaris, Accent, Sonic, and Fiesta to name a few.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,898
    Yeah, the EPA puts the Sentra, Forte, Bentley and Jaguar XF all in the same midsize class based on passenger volume.
    i
    Bentley - 5456 lbs, 208 in. long, 75 in. wide
    Forte - 2791 lbs, 178 in. long, 69 in. wide

    Would anyone in their right mind consider these two cars to be in the same class. I think of the Bentley as a very large car and I think of the Forte as a small car. I hope I don't get in trouble with your higher authority....the EPA.

    Oh, just for grins, the EPA also consider the Mercedes CL600 and the RollsRoyce Phantom to be compact cars. I guess those manufacturers violate EPA "regulations" by pretending these aren't compact cars. And I guess Edmunds is also criminal for putting a few midsize cars to the right on this page and trying to pawn them off as compacts.
  • sandman_6472sandman_6472 Coral Springs, FLPosts: 2,579
    edited September 2011
    We only want a sedan as the doors on the coupe are just to big and heavy to use. Hard for the wife and since my accident, too much for me also. And sometimes, some of the kids go out with us, so a sedan is just so much easier for the family. And as much as I would prefer the wife to get an Elantra, she's gravitating towards the Accent right now with all the bells and whistles...the nice alloys and the cruise for me. Funny thing now is since my compressor is bad in my '06 Civic, I've been using my daughters Accent and honestly, it's not bad at all for a d d, a little weak on the low end torque when compared to the Civic, but doable. The mileage of the Civic is better, but for the little amount of driving I do now, very doable.

    I do like the looks of the Fiesta and the Focus, especially the nice alloys on both, so will be interested to see how they both drive. Have read that the auto tranny in the Focus is having some teething problems but we'll give it a shot. But what really interests me is the Buick Verano, it looks really handsome and has a nice rugged stance but the price is a bit high but hopefully the lower models will not be to de-contented. I know the lack of trunk opener on the key of my Civic LX was a major faux pas as far as I'm concerned...even my '03 Sentra GXE had that feature. Little things like that piss me off, the mid level cars should have a decent amount of bells and whistles as far as I'm concerned!

    But it will definitely be a sedan in the compact/sub-compact category period. And yes, she will only consider brand new at this point. And why not, she can afford it and more importantly...she deserves it! I'm just hoping her Mazda holds up until supplies get back to a pre-earthquake status, so she can find the color she wants, which will probably be a charchol one. We wanted it on the Mazda but they could only locate a silver one which after a few days, we were quite happy with!

    Again, thanks for all the help here. I am,

    The Sandman :) :sick: :shades:

    2014 Hyundai Tuscon SE/2005 Mazda 3s/2008 Hyundai Accent GLS/2009 Nissan Versa SL hatch

  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,707
    I did take a close look at the new Cruze (again) after work today, and it's probably the best bet for your money in terms of what it has inside and how it drives. It's much nicer than a Civic or the Mazda 3. And it's less expensive as well, since GM has good rebates currently.

    Reliability should be as good as any import, since it really IS an import from Europe with a Chevrolet badge on it. It looks nice as well, and the red tintcoat is stunning. They used to offer this on a couple of Pontiacs and the Corvette. It's a 3 stage process, similar to how paint was done in the 70s, and the color is a very dark red. Almost burgundy.
  • Concerning the Focus, we rented one not too long ago and yes, the dual clutch "automatic" transmission, while shifing smoothly and quickly, exibited quite a lot of clunks, shutters, and other odd quirks from a dead or rolling start in addition to drifting back on up-hill starts. In addition the radio controls were frustrating to use until a day or two went by and we finally figured out what was what. And the climate control? two full days went by until I finally read the owners manual and increased the drivers side temperature (it is a dual..passenger and driver temperature system). It was at 65 or so degrees and I was freezing. Otherwise it seemed quick and quiet and handled well. If you don't mind your new car making a lot of clunks and clatters from the transmission area every time you come to a stop I guess it was OK.
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,218
    Sorry, but the Cruze isn't less expensive. Similarly equipped it can be significantly more expensive:
    Cruze LTZ with Sunroof, Navi: $26,265
    Elantra Limited with Tech Package: $23,305
    Neither currently has rebates. Finance offers are about the same. And both are selling well enough that dealers aren't coming down much if any from sticker.

    OK, it's not entirely true that neither has rebates. Hyundai offers military & recent grad rebates on Elantra; Chevy offers neither on Cruze. Cruze does qualify for a few hundred bucks in supplier discounts if you're employee has such a relationship with GM, but it tops out just over $700 so again, similarly equipped high-end trims the Cruze is over $2K more than Elantra.
  • There is a potential $500 fund match from Hyundai through Motozuma dot Com. I'm using that today if the Elantra GLS I have a deposit on hits the lot. You could call this a rebate of sorts. Program works as it allows you to deposit funds or someone else (granny gifting some $$$ perhaps) into an account you set up at Motozuma. Hyundai will match up to $500 in that. Only drawback is the account has to be set up for 30 days before you can use it. But you can wait until just before purchase to put in the bulk of the funds. More details at hyundaiusa.com search for motozuma.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,629
    One thing about the Cruze is you can find an LS with all the key equipment including power windows/locks/mirrors and A/C for around $14.5k... lowest advertised price on the 6MT (I assume) LS in my area in the recent past. Except no cruise on that Cruze. Otherwise a very nice car for the money. If you can live with a stick. And no cruise.
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Waleska, GeorgiaPosts: 790
    "Reliability should be as good as any import, since it really IS an import from Europe with a Chevrolet badge on it."

    Most of the design work was done by GM Daewoo (oops, I mean "GM Korea") and the engineering was predominantly handled by Opel. But the Cruze is manufactured in Lordstown, Ohio...so I'd hardly consider it an import.
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,218
    Wife wants/borderline needs heated seats as she gets very cold very quickly in winter. That alone forces at least an LT2 on the Cruze and a Limited on Elantra. Which forces an AT, though that's fine since she can't drive stick.
  • Click me!

    I'm well aware of the break-in period, and it sometimes needs 4-5K miles in order to achieve optimum fuel economy with almost every vehicle (I've experienced it with Mazda twice now), and I've seen mileage increase 15-20%. Having said all that, I'm not-at-all surprised that the Elantra is getting disappointing fuel economy, well below their ratings.

    Considering that I've heard from owners of the Sonata complaining about their poor fuel economy on the standard 4-cylinder (and get downright dismal with the turbo-4, especially in spirited driving), I can see that Hyundai has figured out fooling the EPA testing procedures and disappointing owners in real-world driving, something Toyota did very well over the past two decades...
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,898
    something Toyota did very well over the past two decades..

    I've heard a lot of complaints about Toyota(both true and false) but I've never seen a lot of complaints about their real world MPG versus the EPA numbers. In fact, what I've experienced(three Toyotas owned in family) has been as good or better than EPA. My 7 yr old Tundra has alway been right on the EPA numbers and my daughters Camry exceeds EPA and she drives fairly aggressive. Just haven't heard much about Toyota in that regard especially compared to some other brands.
  • Funny, I'm getting 33-34 around town an 44-45 hwy 2011 Elantra. Maybe some people just need to learn how to get the mileage that the EPA gives any of the manufacturers. If your in town in stop an go traffic, it's affects mileage as well as jack rabbit starts. Same with hwy, if you going to go 70-80 MPH, your mileage is going to go down bigtime. Problem is, most people are always in a big hurry to go nowhere. So as far as I'm concerned it's all bunk. You might also look at the brand of gas your using, some brands, because of additives seem to get better mileage. IMHO.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,707
    Well, if you load them up to silly levels, yes, both cars are stupid choices.

    We're talking about ~20K and under cars for the most part in this discussion, and certainly the OP was. Ditch the sunroof and the NAV (get a Garman for $200 instead of $1200+) and the LT2 is quite a lot of car for $20.5K.

    note - I pulled up truecar and got a price on the 2LT model. 99% of the stuff they list for options aren't required, really, as it comes pretty well optioned.
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,218
    Why are they stupid choices? For years people have been complaining that non-luxury brands have been treating compact sedan buyers like dirt by not offering features they offer on their midsize & larger vehicles. Now they're offering the features and you call them stupid.

    Just because a feature isn't useful to you doesn't mean everyone agrees with your opinion. Ever since I've started buying new vehicles I've been of the opinion that I'd rather by a loaded car than a less-equipped car that's one class up in the automaker's lineup. If I buy a well-optioned car I'm more likely to own it longer, which reduces vehicular costs over my lifetime. Buying a stripper and trading it in every 3 years is penny-wise, pound foolish.

    Also, why should my wife be penalized by not having features available to her just because she doesn't like to drive larger vehicles?

    Portable navs are a non-starters for us. They make the dash messy and if you don't fully hide them every time you park then you're drastically raising the chances of a break-in. My local police dept. has explicitly warned about theft rates with portable navs. The in-dash nav also includes a rear camera which, while not a necessity, is a good safety feature as we live in a neighborhood with small children.

    My wife could live without the sunroof, and that would make the Cruze about $900 cheaper. It's standard on the Elantra Limited, which is still cheaper than the Cruze.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,629
    Have you driven the new Elantra? What did you get for fuel economy?

    When I rented a 2011 in Austin, mid-summer, it did fine for FE, in mostly in-town driving with AC at full blast all the time and some heavy traffic (duh, it's Austin). Mid-30s, right in the EPA range for mix of city/highway (although it was mostly city for me).

    The 2011-12 Sonatas I've rented also got FE in the EPA range. I did see 20 mpg on a Sonata on one rental, but that was driving it very short distances for a few days in town, AC on full blast (110 F), and wasn't paying any attention to trying to drive economically. When I took it on the highway @ 70 mph, I got 35 mpg which is right at the EPA number (and the EPA number isn't calculated at 70 mph).

    I have a feeling these folks who complain about FE have little or no idea how to drive a car to get maximum FE. They see 40 mpg highway on the window sticker and figure that's what they should get, all the time. That's not the way it works, folks.
  • I basically said the same thing in post #233 Backy, thx for the back-up.
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