Lincoln LS

nvbanker

Man, I don't blame you, and I HATE to hear that. But I have experienced it plenty myself. Now, there are those who tell us there is another side to the story, about customers who only come in to "shop you", and then take your price elsewhere to buy. I'm sure that happens, but I would think that's an occupational hazard. It is in my business. Happens every day. I just have to live with it.

I have had a Ford dealer here treat me that when when considering an Expedition. My Lincoln store never treats me that way.

woodranch1

Thanks for your comments on this decison. A 2003 A 525i can be had for about $40K or about the same as a loaded LS V8 after incentives.

Here is my issue with the LS at the risk of offending certain people. Here in LA, where I live, 3 out five people driving the LS seem to be 80+ in age and alot of females at that. I am 38 and male. Am I not the demographic for this car? I know it sounds silly, but I have to consider this.

slunar

You're comparing apples to oranges woodranch1.

First, how loaded is that 525i compared to the loaded LS-V8? I'd imaging that a LS V6 competes more with the 525i.

Second, if you are concerned about performance and image, you should be comparing 530i's or 540i's to the LS-V8?

I heard some LS demographics a while back. IIRC the median age is 51 (that is half of the LS customers are under 51 years old and half are over 51). IIRC sales were around 65% to males with male customers heavily weighted to LS V8's and sport package models.

Around here the it looks like mostly people over 60 years old drive 525i's (pretty even between male I female). The younger (40 - 50 years old) more status concious and free spending drivers are the ones with 530i's and 540i's. While the under 40 crowd is in 3 series. Then again, I suppose the average person couldn't tell a 2000 525i from a 2003 M5 from a 540i. I guess what I'm saying is IMHO you are being a little silly about this.

lobsenza

You are getting much more car for the same money. In addition you are getting a much more reliable vehicle with lower cost of ownership.

There are many people your age driving the LS. I an 43. I have personally met people in their early 20s with LSes. As the earlier vehicles get older (and less expensive) they are becoming popular with the younger generation.

hairong

I bought my car in SE MI, Ford's back yard. However, the incentive program I used were all nationally available, starting with A-plan price (if you qualify) then apply $6500 for various incentives. If you can't get A-plan, X-plan is readily available (100-200 above invoice for LS Base), and people constantly report they negotiated better deals than X-plan on their own.

The real problem is V6 models (base & premium) are disappearing much faster than the V8s, due to the heavy discount. You can/should check Lincoln's web site to see the inventories of your local dealer(s).

Hope this helps, beaconcar93, and good luck.

acenj

Guys,

You know I never thought of maybe going down to a new-improved 6 to get into a new LS.

Anyone have perf times on:
2001 V8
2003 V8
2003 V6

thx!

Ace

luas

I bought a base 03 LS ,last month, in south west Fl. for $24.100 out the door. If you subtract the 6 months early lease trade and the tax, its hard to tell if anybody is making money. I think that the 03 is FAR superior to the prior years. I had the 2000 with major tranny problems, and the 2001. The 2003 is great. The dealer did not have the color I wanted. He located one close buy and the deal was made. He profited by just pushing paper. It does seem harder to come by the base six. I think that the only big difference between the 03 and 04 cars is that the 04 has a little softer ride than the 03. The radio is sub par but is just O'K'. At these prices, when all the incentives are applied, you cannot go wrong. It's a terrific car.

lobsenza

You have a different suspension on all 03 V6s than the V8s. The V8 has the sport handling suspension and the V6 does not.

slunar

0-60 / 1/4 mile times from car rags mostly C&D
2000 V8 7.2 / 15.2 sec - early build with 3.58 rear end
2000 V8 7.5 /15.7 sec - later build with 3.31 rear end
2000 V6 9.0 / 16.8 sec - auto trannie
2003 V8 6.5 / 14.9 sec - C&D review
2003 V6 8.3 / 16.4 sec - Consumers Reports.
Note CR's times are usually slow vs. other rags, I'd guess if C&D tested it they's probably get 8.0 & 16.1 for times.

I test drove a 2003 V6 and thought that from a stop lower speeds, say 20 - 60 mph it felt almost as fast as my 2000 V8 with 3.31 rear end. Where the V8 still has it over the V8 is higher speed acceleration, say 60-80, 60 - 90 etc.

slunar

hairlong & luas - can you list exactly what the rebates you got were and what the amount of each one is?

The dealers up here (New England) are claiming that there is only $4,500 in rebates available on a LS purchase. $3,500 factory rebate and $1,000 Ford Credit if you finance through Ford Credit. They are advertising V6 bases for $25,999.

On the RCO (lease) program they are telling me that up to $5,500 in rebates are available.

The Lincoln web site says that 0% APR PLUS $2,000 in rebates are availble, but the dealers here say that is not so.

acenj

Well,

First off - you folks are great - thanks for all the useful info on a free site!!!

I have a 2001 V8 sport, so it is probably on the slower axle. The 6 sounds good, but boy teh 8 seems like the way to go, all be it about 10K more. I dunno. Something tells me the incentives come sept 3 should be real good.

Ace

hairong

luas, glad to see you finally worked out a deal. Was it still with the dealer who you loathed so much?

slunar, at the time (one month ago), the incentive was 3500(ford/lincoln cash) + 1000(f/l cash) + 1000(ford credit cash) + 1000(drive back to L/M bonus - 1k for lincoln, 500 for mercury). I was told they are all national incentives, but this could be wrong, maybe some was just regional.

rfdevil1

Hi all. I don't post often but I do keep up with what people are saying on the LS and the CTS. These two cars are the ones I kept coming back to. I have to admit I was a little concerned with all the problems I read about (rear windows, overheating, transmission failures)and customer service issues. However, I finally went ahead an got a 2003 black LS V8 sport (not premium). I live in the northeast and I was able to get the following rebates with 0.0% financing:
$1,000 customer cash ($3,500 if no 0.0%)
$1,000 bonus cash for financing w/ FMCC
$1,000 rebate for buying V8. This is a manufacturer to dealer incentive but they agreed to give it to me. I was told rebates vary by region and they had to verify the last two but finally agreed. Is there another $1,00 out there? Not sure where the $6,500 comes from.

What helped me decide was 1) I loved the car, 2) incentives helped a lot 3) dealer gave better trade on my car than any other. I said, I like the CTS but they aren't dealing much on them now.

By the way, re demographics, I'm 37 and I've seen a variety of ages driving these cars. I don't feel like I'm driving an older persons car. (is that politically correct enough?)

Re dealers, I went to two with two very different experiences. One was more like a stereotypical used car salesman but this one is closest so this is where I would have it serviced. He said very plainly that the level of service is different if you don't buy from them. I didn't care for that at all and I bet his manager would disagree. The other is the one where I got it from. They were courteous, professional, helpful and most of all, not pushy.

I'll continue to follow this board and will report with comments good or bad.

Rich

lateralg

Drive each for a half hour ... part expressway, part twisties. After each drive, close your eyes and ask yourself how you feel.

I refer to my '03 LS V8 as a mood-elevating mile-eater. I've had it for six weeks, 3,000 miles, yet when I go the the garage, the attraction to drive the LS exceeds that of my '01 Mustang GT 5-speed convertible.

luas

Roi4. You have a new car. When my 1st LS was new it did the same wandering. I brought it back to the dealer and he re aligned the car. He informed me that it was snow plowing and that it was not unusual to have to reset the factory settings. A while back, in these postings, it was said, that this problem could happen in transport. Let the dealer fix it and enjoy the great stable ride. Good luck.

erickpl

Just don't close those eyes during the test drive.

-Paul

luas

The loathed dealer played me for all he was worth. After agreeing on a price I said that I would return the next day to pick out a color ,etc. and sign the deal. When I arrived with my significant other, he told me that he made another mistake and the LS would cost me an additional $1500. I wasn't shocked, because I had been dealing with him before. I said no and that he should rethink what he is doing and I left. I called 2 days later,30 July, and he said come down. I did and he wanted to split the difference, he just wouldn't quit. I said NO and he then went into the owner who Okayed the deal. He still clipped me for $275 for a shopping cart dink in the fender. He had inspected the car 2 times prior without mentioning it. I was dealing with the sales manager all of the time. My old salesman retired. The good thing is that this dealer has a great repair manager and therefore poor work is never a problem. I guess I'll be around for a few more years. Rebates....some of the rebates that I got are no longer available. The programs seem to change monthly.

slunar

Thanks for the detailed rebate info rfdevil1. Exactly what I was looking for. I had a previous experience where a dealer said there wasn't a rebate that I thought there was. When I came up with a name for the rebate, suddenly he found it. I'm not going to attempt to figure out how you get and extra $1,000 for financing through Ford Credit with 0% APR, but if they're giving it I won't turn it down.

Congratulations on your new LS. You made the right choice. The rear windows should not be a problem. The cable retainer was changed from plastic to metal in Jan 02. It looks like that change solved the problem. Also the window problem mostly affected cars that are in hotter areas than the northeast. Best I can tell there are very few LS's that are affected by the overheating issue. I've heard similar horror stories about both Caddy & Lincoln dealers. I just saw an article somewhere that Caddy wants to cut down significantly on the # of dealers they have so it sounds like Caddy knows they have problem dealers.

rg03v8s

I'm 38 and male and love driving my LS V8. Even if you are correct about your local LS demographics, which BTW I don't think you are, just think of the advantages - e.g. your LS will be virtually invisible to traffic enforcement!

sawmill

I've been comparing my wife's 03 V6 with my 00 V8 for a while now, in all different situations.

No big suprise -- the new LS 6 is slower off the dime than the LS 8. I see absolutely no difference in car response to the 03's drive by wire vs the 00's direct cable link. The tranny is definitely smoother in the 03 than the 00 -- no question -- and it has nothing to do with age. The brakes are lighter touch on the 03, the steering a bit lighter. The ride is identical. (both are non-sport). I am sure the 03 LS 6 is faster than the 00 LS 6 -- but 8 cylinders is eight cylinders -- and you can really feel the difference going up freeway on-ramps, or passing cars going up hill at 60 mph or higher.

Personally, I like the hydraulic (00) cooling system that is very responsive to engine temps over the newer (03) (and cheaper) electric motor fan. And I hate the new plastic nickel interior -- but like the sculpted, Mercedes inspired, door panels.

crazybabydoc

I purchased a LS for my wife's big 3-0. The fact of the matter is that most 20-40 somethings have kids and mortgages so they cannot afford an LS or choose to pack the gang into a crossover, minivan, SUV, or the resurgent station wagon.

Personally, I would complement grandma on her purchase of an LS8. The demographic for Evos and WRXs may be more to your liking but do you really want to join that cohort?

parker1976

I've recently purchased a base LS V-6. My wife and I looked for a LONG time into this new car purchase. For nearly the past 3 months we test drove just about everything. BMW 3 and 5 series, Mercedes C class, Caddy CTS, Volvo S40 and S60, Audi A4, VW Passat, you get the idea. I was stunned after driving the LS because the reviews seemed somewhat harsh. Specifically, Edmunds called it a "so-so sedan at best"? I believe Lincoln engineers and marketing guys did an excellent job figuring what exactly to cut out from each trimline down to the base V-6. They not only compete with both the 3 and 5 series BMW's with a single car, they do a damn good job at it. And what the hell is with the VW Passat's turbo lag and TERRIBLE PURPLE DASH LIGHTS!? I ran off the lot screaming! The VW's always seem to get grand reviews, I just don't understand it. I couldn't justify the extra 8 or 9 grand for the 3 series, and I really don't understand all the comments about "build quality not up to japanese and german standards". I've pushed, pulled, poked, and scratched at all the interiors previously mentioned, the LS is as solid as the rest. Then the comment about "engine noise at high RPM's" It's an American car...we like our engines to sound that way, dammit! I don't care what the reviews say, I'm convinced it's time to buy American again.

rfdevil1

The $1,000 rebate for financing with FMCC is good whether you choose 0.0% or take the full customer cash. This was clearly advertised in area newpapers over the past few weeks. However, when asked the dealer about it (the one I bought from)he initially said you don't get it with 0.0%. I told him about the ads and asked if he could check. He "went in the back" for a while and came back with the good news. He said it was a regional offer and had to make sure before he could give it to me.

Different subject. My car has the Michelin Pilots on it and they look like they could cost a few bucks when replacement time comes. Anyone know what the expected tread wear is on these?

tornado25

Your comment:

"Then the comment about "engine noise at high RPM's" It's an American car...we like our engines to sound that way, dammit!"

Dead on, man. I mean, if you're going to have a 280hp V-8, I want to hear it. It gets me going more than anything else.

tone81

A while back some folks were talking about problems with the LS03 electronic parking brake and the "service parking brake" message. Just wondering because I have a brand new '03 LS and I have started to see the mysterious intermittent "service parking brake" message and then the only way to reset the message and disengage the brake seems to be to shut off and restart the car.

Thanks for any help.

nvbanker

You know, that electronic parking brake is such a cool feature, I don't even care if it's way unreliable, I want one anyway! I would be delighted if every Lincoln made came with it, and particularly in cars like the LS where the former ubiquitious handle strained my back setting the brake. Bring it on! They'll eventually figure out how to make it work.

On the hydraulic cooling system on the 00, ANT may correct me on this, but I think it was trouble prone, so the retrenchment back to the electric cooling fan was probably a good idea. I don't think it was just about being cheaper....I think the hydraulic system was a nice idea, but a failure.

ANT14

Yes, numerous items were improved for better reliability, and I believe that was one of them. Mainly because less "parts that can go wrong" are involved, therefore, simplicity.

nvbanker

Wish my cars had the electronic parking brake. I fell in love with it when I rented my last LS.

alphanstein

I replaced my 2001 with a 2003 premium sport LS8, fully loaded and I am extrememly happy with the improvements. My craving to drive the 2001 has been exceeded by the 2003 model refinements. This car begs to be driven and for me, the features you get for the price cannot be beat. As far as deals, with the manufacturer kickbacks, the dealers are also discounting the 2003's in anticipation of the 04's coming in. The ads I see run promos that either end on 9/2 or 9/31, so the time is running out on the 03's. I highly recommend taking advantage of these rebates from the dealer & Lincoln and using the 0% financing if you can qualify, it is the best deal I see today, most other manufacturers are at 1.9 or 2.9% for 60 months (xcept GM).

acenj

Is there a night & day diff between teh 01 and the 03??? Just got some numbers today and the dealer basically wanted me to trade my 01 V8 Sport in plus an additional 29K for an 03 if financed at 0%. He was basically giving me 17K for mine, 46K for a 03 which listed at 48 (minus a 2K delaer disc and i can get another 1000 for financing through ford at 0%). Anyway, two model years and 29K - I figured they had to be smoking something real good 'cause there's no way I can make that deal. I'll be looking for a used V8 w/ Navi in the next 6-12 months.

Ace

alphanstein

I was leasing and got 18.5K which is right around where kbb puts it. The payoff on mine was 22.5, so it was close enough that the incentives offered made it a no brainer. Depends on what your payoff is and what they are willing to give you. I only had 32K miles, so that helped on my value. Night and day, to me, yes, and I have driven more than my own model, other LS owners models, Hertz rentals, guys who have tweaked their LS's heavily, Lincoln just took note of what was going on and tried to hit the bullseye with the 2003. Like I said, for the price, they are the best model year yet. Show me any other car that gives the same ride/comfort/horsepower/ameneties for the price, none, the big picture of the 2003 is what convinced me. The NAV/THX sound package is the first OEM stock system that I love. All these car manufacturers use names like Bose, Harman Audio, Alpine, Mark Levinson, but for me, the THX brand is setting a standard to be matched or beat, backed up by the brand name and it plays, and plays, and plays loud and clear. I cannot even crank it all the way up because the SPL just becomes too high to be comfortable, but there is no distortion. I am a guy that has put $1500-$3000 aftermarket systems in my old cars, so this is really a benefit to me.

akirby

The hydraulic cooling fan was not by choice but by necessity due to a very high electrical load - there wasn't enough juice to run an electric fan back in 99. That was since fixed and they've reverted back to an electric fan. Other than a glitch in the 2002 model introduction the hydraulic fans have not been a problem. They're very quiet.

slunar

Sounds like that dealer thinks he has a sucker on the hook.

Assuming the list on the LS you looked at is $48,045, Dealer invoice + LDMA comes to $44,258. Plus if what rfdevil1 says is right the dealer gets another $1,000 in dealer cash. So forgetting any trade and adding in the dealer's holdback, the dealer is trying to make $6K in profit off you, not including your trade in.

Now getting to your trade in, $17K sounds low. I'd guess that the dealer would try to resell your LS for about $22K, that is a $5K profit on your trade in.

So it seems to me this dealer is trying to make $11K in total profit on you.

I'd look for another dealer.

carjim

Regarding this bad deal for an '03, remind the next greedy dealer the 03 is or will be a year old model in a matter of weeks.

leadfoot4

Regarding $17K trade in being too low, I agree wholeheartedly. I was recently offered $16K for my 2000 LS-8 in trade for a 2003 sport.

In all honesty, I couldn't justify $20K to trade up 3 model years. My 2000 runs and looks great, and has only 25,000 miles. Sure, I'd like to upgrade, but it's just too little bang for too big a buck, IMHO.

mrgdr

I have this issue and posted about it. It's exactly as you described except that the brake actually will disengage when the "Service Park Brake" message appears. It won't reengage until the car is restarted. Restarting the car resets the brake and the message. I have a 5000 mile service appointment next week and will ask again to have this investigated but am pretty sure that unless the message is present at the time of inspection, I'm going to get the "unable to duplicate problem" response again. It's a minor annoyance. Some sort of service bulletin will surface eventually.

acenj

Guys,

Thanks for the advice. I thought 17K was low, and was actually thinking if I got 19-20K I'd be happy. Lets say I got $ 44K deal on the new one (I plan on using hte 0%), 19K for the used one, that's still 25K for 2 model years diff. The numbers just don't add up. He has a used 03 w/ 7K miles on it for 37K (loaded prem sport w/ Navi). That would bring the delta down to 18K. I'm thinking I'll sit for a while and pick up a clean used one in 6-12 months. I could justify 12-13K delta but anything over that IMO is pushing it. Considering most 2002's right now are in teh high 20's, that means the 03's should be in the low 30's (with Navi), just a guess, sometime this spring.

Anyway, what do you guys think?

Ace

emc3

I think you're making a wise choice. While I enjoy my 2000 LS V8 Sport I'll never buy a new Lincoln again. While all cars are depreciating rapidly thanks to all the rebates, Lincolns, in my opinion, are amoung the worst offenders. I'm thinking a nice used '03 will be in the upper $20's by late winter-early spring. Buy it then...Now of course some of our other posters may feel those 500 plus improvments are worth it, I don't...

lateralg

"Now of course some of our other posters may feel those 500 plus improvments are worth it, I don't... "

Yep. Voted with my money, & have no regrets.

ezaircon4jc

My dealer has all their '03's for TEN GRAND off sticker. That's right folks, TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS off!! That is using Ford Credit. Over 720 gets 4.49%.

slunar

I don't think that Lincoln has a lock on low resale. Someone I know sold his GS-430, 14 months old for $8K less than what he paid for it and had a HARD time finding a buyer.

gschwartz can tell you a story about someone who sold his 2 year old GS-430 and lost around $17K in 2 years.

Plain and simple, the more expensive a car is, the more depreciation will see in real $$. Luxury cars are a very poor investment. Many auto writers have pointed this out many times.

tone81

MRGDR

Thanks for the response. I know it seems like an annoyance but since I've started paying attention I think I've only been able to get the brake to work correctly once or twice. Seems like my problem is a little more frequent.

Mine's going back in later this week. I'll post if they figure anything out.

mrgdr

You're welcome. I'm intrigued that your brake problem is nearly constant. Of the few other folks with this issue, yours is the first I've heard of with such high frequency. Mine happens perhaps once every week or 10 days. (Note that it can happen when the car is started even if the brake was NOT applied prior to shut-down.) I'd love to know what your service department discovers and does to resolve your problem. I might be able to point my dealer in the right direction. TIA!

sawmill

Mark from Lincoln told us they road test about 5 LS's off the production line by driving them from Detroit to California, and up to the Artic Cirlce, monitoring the problems. Maybe Lincoln would be well advised to use a test like Edmunds' long-term system -- rotate different drives, use the vehicles for short hops, long trips, etc. Then maybe they would unearth more problems before the cars reach the public.

oldsman01

Due to the low resale of the LS, I am now considering one. I've noticed several 01 LS V8s with "low mileage" listed in dealer's ads for anywhere from $21K - 23.5K. IMO, low mileage for an 01 is 35000 or less and if that is the case with the cars, those seem like decent prices. Especially as a starting point for negotiating. To be honest, I've never really considered an LS before, but the more I look at them and read reviews, the more I like them. And while the low resale is a pain to the person who bought one new, it makes such a car much more attractive to someone like me on the used market. And if you guys want to talk about a car with terrible resale, try my 2001 Oldsmobile Intrigue. Fully loaded it stickered for $29K(althought I didn't pay anywhere near that) and now at best it will garner less than 11K on a trade. Keep in mind the car only has 35K and is in excellent condition. So needless to say, I don't want to buy new again and take such a hit. Anyway, if anyone has any advice on things to look out for on an 00 or 01 LS, let me know. My ideal would be an 01 as I never like to buy the first year of a new model.

scottc8

Problems with the '00-01s have been greatly exaggerated by the automotive press, for reasons only they know. I'm acquainted with literally hundreds of LS owners, about half of whom own '00s or '01s. Other than the infamous rear window regulators (now fixed for good), and automatic shifting problems (permanent software fix available since Jan. '01), there are no chronic problems with the LS. Please don't let's get into anecdotes. For every problem LS someone has heard about, I'll show you a bunch of cars with 60k+ miles that have been virtually trouble free. Like mine.

$20k will buy a really nice used LS, with plenty of the factory warranty left. Happy shopping.

lateralg

I call it high Value.

oldsman01

I've spent some time here on the internet as well as reading through my old MT and C&Ds from 2000 and the more read on the LS, the more I think it is the logical choice for my next new(used) car. I typically prefer Cadillacs, but in the price range I'm looking to spend, it would be a stretch to get a 2000 STS as they are just more expensive cars. And prior to the CTS which just went on sale last year, Cadillac had NOTHING to compete with the LS. I did some searching on the internet and found several 01 V8s with anywhere from 17K to 30K with prices listed from 22.9 to 24.9. To anyone who has purchased one used recently, how much lower than the asking price did you initially offer? I may go test drive some LSs tomorrow.

mrgdr

As a former STS owner now driving my second LS (2000 and 2003), I can tell you that the STS has NOTHING on the LS except perhaps 20 ponies and good old FWD torque steer. You could never toss an STS around like you can the LS. Go for your test drives, you'll be glad you did!

scottc8

As much as you're leaning toward the LS already, the test drive will clinch it. The most common story from LS owners goes something like, "Saw it, liked the looks, didn't know much about it, then I drove it. Then I drove it home."