Lincoln LS

slunar

With my LS lease, Ford was just able to keep me as a customer. When I got my LS8 on 29 FEB 00, the LS was the only vehicle in Ford's product portfolio that I considered. Having $2500 of Ford Citibank card rebate $$, a $500 Ford good customer rebate check and a special NY market lease rate kept me in the Ford family. In Feb 2000, to me, the LS was competitive and was the best Ford product to come along since the original Taurus. Today, the LS is starting to show its age, non competitive HP & torque and there are more luxury features available in most any competitor's sub $30K 4dr sedan. With the horrible Lincoln dealer service experience I've had and no more Ford Citi rebate $$ Ford has 19 months to get their sh*t together and keep me as a customer. Oh yea, my wife's 97 Taurus wagon is up for replacement soon, too.

tom12253

I had the same issue with the mildew smell and found that changing the filter helped. At 10,000 miles, when I removed and inspected the cabin filter, I found it was totally black so I replaced it and have had no problem since then. If you need help in how to replace the filter yourself, check out the How-To section at the www.llsoc.com site. I purchased my filter from Ford Parts Network (in the Links section LLSOC) - FP-25 Genuine Ford LS pollen filter 19.99 plus shipping. If your buying only one it may be cheaper just to get it from the dealer.

Tom

drolds1

I'm as eager as anyone to see a more competitive LS but hey guys, as Brian reminded us a while back, the car is on a development cycle. Things just don't happen overnight. Just before his promotion, JR told us not to believe most of what we read about future LS's. He also assured us that the car would get better. I'm willing to take him at face value for now. Let's wait and see just what the '03 is going to be like. Personally, the timing is just about right for me. My current lease is up 12/01/02. The car should have been on the market for a while by then, giving me enough time to make a decision.

Having said that, there are some valid points being made here. They don't have to do that much with the basic platform. It's a winner. However, it wouldn't take much for a serious HP infusion right NOW. The parts are all there on the shelf. The extra 10 HP for the '02 V6 sounds like a band-aid to me. As pointed out here, the all-new Altima V6 will have 240 HP; the Maxima 260. The Acura TL Type S has 265 & judging from the published acceleration times (forgive me), it sounds like every one of those 265 horses came out of the barn and reported for duty.

This lack of HP isn't a new issue with Ford. In the 50's Ford had their "Y-block" boat anchor of a V8 when Chevy introduced the ground-breaking 265 V8 in 1955. During the musclecar era in the 60's,Chevy came out with the 396 Camaro. Ford's answer was the the 390 "FE" engined Mustang. Although I was an avowed GM fan in those days, I remember actually being embarassed for the guys in the Mustangs which looked like they were towing something. I could regularly stomp these things with my '66 Olds Cutlass 330 c.i small-block, 4 barrel, 2-speed automatic (trophy winner in its class. Here they were trying to compete with the then, state-of-the-art Chevy "rat" motor with its deep breathing splayed-valve heads with this converted truck engine relic left over from the late 50's. This is not to say that they haven't had some competitive engines. The Boss 302 comes to mind and let's not forget that they had a 427 SOHC V8 in the 60's that so terrorized NASCAR that they banned it & it promptly tore up the dragstrips for a while. And of course the 5.0 Mustang became the "55 Chevy of the 90's." However, when it comes to the bread & butter products, it just ain't happening. How about the 3.8 Lincoln Continental? The 220HP Town Car? You need to spend considerably more on a Mustang to just approach the straight-line performance of the average Z28 Camaro. (Of course this will soon be a moot point).

Before I get down from my soap box: not for nothing, but we have new people in Dick Cupka's and JR's positions. To my recollection, we haven't yet heard from them on this board. How about it folks, a word for the LS faithful?

Please forgive the long post. I am suffering from "posting deprivation" after being out of commission for 2 days with the "sircam" worm.

leadfoot4

A couple of years ago, my wife was experiencing the moldy smell in a Nissan 240 SX that she had at the time. The dealer did the "deodorant thing" and offered one other suggestion. The suggestion is to raise the temp setting for a few minutes before shutting off the car, every once in a while. This is to help clear out the residual condensation. It did help.
Prior to purchasing our LS, my wife and I owned a 1993 Caprice LTZ. This was a predecessor to the Impala SS. During our ownership, I made a few suspension mods to help the handling, however the car did not have the LT-1 engine or the rear disc brakes that really made the SS what it was. Nonetheless, it was still a very capable highway cruiser, and had good acceleration and fuel mileage with its 5.7 litre TBI engine.
Although not as nimble as the LS, due to its solid rear axle and 500 lbs. of extra bulk, it still could corner fairly well, and was a smooth riding car. As giowa said a few posts earlier, they're both good cars, just a little different.

akirby

First official picture of the new CTS. Oh my. I thought they shot the guy that designed the Aztek.

http://www.detroitnews.com/2001/autos/0107/31/autos-257431.htm

220 hp 3.2L V6 appears to be the only engine option, although a manual is offered. So much for the theory of improvement for the LS through local competition.

bajabill

from the speel I got at the world challenge, that nose look is somewhat of a rallying feature for future cadi designs. They seem to like it and are going to push it, we will see how it is accepted in the public.

stanny1

It looks like Cadillac is again underestimating the intelligence of the buyers in this market segment. The "3 series" type buyer they are courting and the press will look at that engine and vomit. If they are too cheap to put a baby Northstar in there, they might as well fold up the tent now. I bet that the Cimarron had a better fate than this ugly abortion. I won't even speculate on where they will get a Manual tranny for this thing. This car will make the LS shine in comparison, especially at their price. "Standard of the World" NOT!

raaizin

I am looking to purchase a new car. I went to look at the LS. I am an X-plan purchaser.Dealer says I will get 2300 off MSRP with X-plan. I want V-6, auto Sport pkg, and moonroof. The MSRP will be about 36k so I am looking at about 33,700. Does this sound correct?? I can get a new 525 for 39k with sport and premium pkg. Why should I buy the LS over the 525 when it is only 5k more. I would purchase the LS for 30-31k the way I would like to option it. Please no flames just constructive comments. Ray

stanny1

I know BMW lowered their prices but that seems cheap if you don't get the leatherette seats. Does it have limited slip? Tell us more about the equipment at 39k.

akirby

Why would you spend 5K more for the 525? What does it have that the LS doesn't? I don't think acceleration is an issue between these two - neither one are screamers. One objective difference is interior room - the LS is bigger, closer to a 7-series in interior dimensions.

It all comes down to which one you like the best, and if you like the BMW then you have to decide if it's worth the $5K extra. None of us can make that call for you.

akirby

I just did an Edmunds TMV on a comparably equipped 525i automatic. It came out to $42K (invoice $38K, retail $43K) so make sure you've got all the options covered. I priced the base plus steptronic automatic tranny, sport-premium pkg, fold down rear seats and convenience package. If that's the correct figures then it's closer to $8K difference, not $5K.

ronniepooh

Biggest factor for me was interior space and legroom. Ray, check the interior dimensions on both on Edmunds site. If you have a family, or long legs, then the choice may be easier than you think. If its just you, then might be time to count your money and go for a test drive of both. Thats what I recommend to anyone...screw the magazine numbers and figures...GO TEST DRIVE THE CARS YOURSELF

raaizin

Akirby I dont want the convenience or fold down rear seat. Invoice I had priced was 37,200. My local BMW dealer said he would do it for 39K besides from what I am hearing on a BMW bb 1500 over invoice isnt a problem. If I take Euro delivery I can get about @ 2k off. I fly for free so the cost of me going to Germany isnt to be factored in. I was a little shocked by the LS's price, which is made me look at the BMW in the first place. I think the LS at about 30-31k with sport pkg ,moonroof V6 would be a good deal. Am I being unreasonable PLEASE let me know.

Sincerely,
Ray

raaizin

ronniepooh, The 525 felt larger to me, cant explain it but the LS felt a little small to me. I drove the 525 but the LS was in the showroom, The battery was disconected, so maybe the seat wasnt that far back. It didnt dawn on me that the seat wasnt all the way back, you would think the dealer would put it all the way back to give the impression the car was large..

joelincoln

FUGLY !!!

I hope this isn't a trend in automotive design.

giowa

Please don't forget that Lincoln is aggressively subsidizing financing. If you plan to buy but finance, getting 0.9 percent for 48 months can save you thousands of dollars. Maybe as much as 5 or 6K depending upon amount borrowed, term, etc. What is the interest rate BMW offering versus Lincoln?

I think the average Joe off street who knows how to negotiate can easily get at least $3K off MSRP sticker at average local dealer from a car in stock. I did about that with my LS8 Sport in 12/99. And Lincoln was loathe to deal then. They are dealing, and big time, now. Have been for some time.

If you are looking at 525, have you considered Jag S-type 3.0? Thinking Jag has had some aggressive leasing and financing deals this year.

lolaj42

raaizin, you really need to look at the LS again in terms of interior space. The LS is noticeably larger. When I was comparing these cars two years ago, I needed to put a rear facing child seat in the middle position of the back seat, and still be able to move the drivers seat to accommodate me. I'm of average height at 5'10" and could easily put the child seat in the LS without it interfering with the child seat (at least 3 inches of clearance at the top portion of the driver seat back). I could NOT do this with the BMW 5 series, as the drivers seat would contact the child carrier and prevent me from moving the driver's seat aft enough for me to be comfortable or being too close to the airbag.

If interior space, and rear seat passenger comfort is at all a concern, then the LS is the clear winner.

airwolf1000

I use a Hitch to Pull a Jetski. I also use a Draw-Tite one that is specially made for the LS. It bolts on at predetermined locations on the LS. The Black Trim around the bumper needs to be unscrewed from the center to slide hitch bar (not the receiver) behind the bumper . I had it installed at Joe Hitch shop here in dallas. I want to say it was about $150... Now Regarding the Lighting Kit for the Trailer. Draw-Tite did not have one of their modu-lite kits for the LS at the Time so I had to order the Ford Spec one for the LS. Do not buy the normal one for all of the Ford cars/trucks. It will screw the LS Electronics. This one will Isolate and provide the power for the Trailer lights without placing a load on the sensitive LS Electronics Cost is about 130-180. I ordered mine from Country Lincoln Mercury in New York with 20% off. It should cost you about $70-$100 to have it installed at you local dealer but check to make sure.

Total I would say for the whole kit and kaboodle about 400 Washington's.

Regards, Airwolf 1000

akirby

I included the folding rear seats because those are standard on the LS. I had $38K invoice so your numbers sound about right.
I think you'll find the LS significantly larger inside. Please take a test drive and see for yourself.

I'm just curious - what features about the BMW do you think are worth the extra cost? Or do you just like certain things better on the 525?

raaizin

Akirby,

I drove a 525 with a sport pkg, the single thing that attracted me to the car was its sharpe reflexes. It reminded me of my corvette which I had a few years ago. Granted with only 184 HP it wasnt a rocket but we have 2 kids 5 and 6 years old and need 4 seater. Also I am trying to keep $$ down that is why I dont go for a 530 or 540. I view out the windshield was nice unobstructed no nonsense. In the lincoln I felt like I was driving in a tunnel. They also tend to hold their value better. I really want to buy the Licoln if I could get one for about 30k with sport pkg and moonroof but the best I probably can do is about 32k and that is heading into BMW territory.

scottc8

raaizin, have you actually driven the LS? You've left that unclear. Anyway, if you prefer the BMW, so be it. But it would be a shame to drop $39k on one without driving a V8 LS IMHO. The LS V6 is in BMW 3-series price territory, LS8s are heading into 540 performance territory at a 525 price.

re the CTS: That Aztec stylist sure gets around! Anybody else seen a picture of the Chevy Avalanche pickup? Fellow LLSOCers may have read a rant I posted about styling a while back. This is just what I was talking about. And the Mk 9 concept car sure looks like this "direction" to me. If this thing sells well, everyone here better switch to synthetic oil in their LSs. We may have to keep them a long time, until Detroit gets around to designing cars for grownups again.

And thanks, drolds, for the reminder on patience. For my own selfish self, I plan to keep my '00 till at least '05, so it will be easy. But I feel for the guy who passed up the incentives to buy an '01 hoping for something more in '02.

buckwheat

akirby, not for nothing but that photo has been around for months (could be over a year or more) along with a companion vehicle. Interesting article..

http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_026003 and

http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_020990 and

http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_017253

buckwheat

Anyone see any similarities to above photos in the following ones, I can think of one person, Gerry McGovern, director of design for Lincoln....

http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_023128 and

http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_023087 or how about this beauty,

http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_000133

drolds1

It's really hard to decide which nose is uglier, the Caddy or the Mk.9. I think the Caddy takes it (by a nose? Sorry, couldn't resist). For want of a better term, it seems a bit more aggressive in its ugliness. This is the way they're going though. It's already on the new Escalade. Poor Cadillac, once the "standard of the world." This is what they're pinning their hopes on?

Is it just me, or does the front end on the Mk.9 concept bear a distinct resemblance to the creature in the Alien(s) movie series?
I have to say though, at the NY auto show, the crowds were 6 deep around it all day. I don't know if this was due to the car's stunning good looks or the kind of morbid curiosity that makes people look at a terrible "car accident."

azlels

I have had a 1998 528 and an now an LS 6 sport/convenience package. The 528 is very similar to the new 525 in power. I like driving the LS far better. It really reminds me more of a Benz or Audi than a BMW. The LS has that supersolid Teutonic feel. I have the seats that come with the BMW luxury package and I like the LS seats much better. Incidentally, the LS 6 has plenty of snap for me and I am averaging 22 mph in town at 3900 miles. It definately feels more like the 7 series in terms of room inside. The Alpine system is superior to the BMW standard sound system as it should be. I would drive them both on a long drive if you can. I drove the LS8 several times before I bought the LS6. The BMW has better looking fake wood but it is plastic too. It is also great to drive and the straight 6 is flawless. The 4 speed auto got very rough by the time I turned the car in on a lease. For me the price doesnt matter. I just couldnt believe the LS once I drove one and decided I wanted one. I have had one of every sport sedan on the market. One I really enjoyed was the Q45 with the badge on the front. Incredible v8 and handling. Once they put a grill in it they made it soft to compete with the LX 400.

karzz

Here are the interior measurements for both the LS and 5 Series. (source Carpoint) The LS measurements are significantly better than the 5 Series and actually is larger inside than the 7 Series. The LS also has a larger trunk than both the 5 and the 7.

Lincoln LS.....BMW 5-Series

MFR Pass Volume..103.8 cu.ft..94.9 cu.ft
Front Headroom........40.4 in.....38.7 in.
Rear Headroom.........37.5 in.....37.8 in.
Front Legroom...........42.8 in.....41.7 in.
Rear Legroom............37.4 in.....34.2 in.
Front Shoulder Room..57.7 in.....56.8 in.
Rear Shoulder Room...57 in.......55.9 in.
MFR Cargo Volume.....13.5 cu.ft....11.1 cu.ft


Lincoln LS....BMW 7 Series

MFR Pass Volume 103.8 cu.ft 100.3 cu.ft
Front Headroom .......40.4 in.....37.4 in.
Rear Headroom.........37.5 in.....37.9 in.
Front Legroom...........42.8 in.....41.9 in.
Rear Legroom............37.4 in.....36.7 in.
Front Shoulder Room..57.7 in.....58.4 in.
Rear Shoulder Room...57.0 in.....58.4 in.
MFR Cargo Volume.....13.5 cu.ft....13 cu.ft

akirby

You really owe it to yourself to test drive both a LS 6 and 8 sport. You can get the V8 sport for a little less than the 525, or save $5K and go with the V6 sport. As others have pointed out you get 7 series room, 5 series performance and handling at 3 series prices. You simply can't appreciate this car sitting on a showroom floor. It begs to be driven. Either way by doing extensive test drives of both you'll know you made the right decision.

garthman

I personally wouldn't own the small power plant BMW. What a waste of a car. 540 is the only unit that would compare. I've never been keen on going the cheap route on engine's especially in this line of vehicle. Look at the resale side, most cars get less with the small litre's.
My 2 cents.

leadfoot4

I too, purchased my 2000 LS-8, non sport under the X-Plan, and I think the dealer isn't being up front with their price.
My car stickered for for a little over $39K, and the X-Plan price was $3900 off the MSRP. You better shop around.

pnewby

Better ads for the LS in the new edition. Congrats to Brian for the article on LLSOC.

giowa

The interior room specs shown above appear to be for the vehicle without a sunroof. According to Lincoln's product specification chart (re-posted within past couple weeks here), the specs for cars with sunroofs is as follows:

Passenger Volume: 100.7 cu ft
Head Rm, Frt: 38.6
Hear Rm, Rr: 36.7

I wonder how lincoln arrived at these numbers. My '00 LS8 Sport has a sunroof. I'm 6'2". I had lots of headroom. Though I do lower the seat height a bit. I prefer to sit low in the car. Wondering where the seat height is for Lincoln's figures for both those with and without a sunroof.

I also believe the trunk space figure of 13.5 cu ft is NOT accurate for those with the Audiophile system. My mom's non-Audiophile system has a lot more space under the rear deck. The Audiophile eats up a couple cu ft. And the intruding trunk hinges also eat up more. (Thinking the BMWs have non-intrusive trunk hinges. The '00 3 Series I drove had the better design.)

raaizin

Leadfoot4,
Thanks for the input on pricing. I will try another dealer as soon as the '02 come out. It seems like all the '01's on the lots are fully loaded v8's. I had read there was alot of scrutiny by Ford on X-plan purchasers. I had thought that it would keep them honest, but I guess that was a bad assumption on my part. If I can get 3900 of MSRP, then their pricing is more in line with what I was planning.

All, thanks for the input. I will test drive a V6 sport pkg. Originally I didn't since I was put off my the price. One last note, I dont want
anyone to think I am bashing the LS. Both are nice cars I just wanted to get some more info to make a better decision. That is wh I asked the question here.

Sincerely,
Ray

slunar

It's not just a $5,000 difference, you have to consider the real cost of that difference over the life of the car. Lets assume that you are buying the car and keeping it for 5 years. If you are like me and live in a state with sales tax and property tax that diffence must be added in. Whether you are paying cash or getting a loan you then have to add in the time value of the $5,000 difference over 5 years. And finally, don't be fooled by depreciation. Even if the 525 has a higher residual percentage, the actual real dollar loss in depreciation between new and 5 year old prices will be more with a higher priced car. The net result is that over the 5 year use of the car, the real cost difference of the 525 will more than $8,000. compared to the LS. I test drove both a 328 & 528. In spite of what the #s say the 528 seemed to have more headroom and was the only car with a sunroof that I could comfortably fit in, I'm 6'2". I got a LS without a moonroof because if I lowered the seat to clear the moonroof cars it felt like I didn't have enough leg room. In the end I thought the BMW's were a little more refined, both the LS & BMW felt equally solid (take a LS for a test drive!) but the smaller 528 was simply not worth the extra $$ especially for how much real leather cost you on a BMW. Using my total cost of ownership calculation on a 3 year lease, an equivalently equipped 528 came out $7K more than the LS. A 5 year purchase analysis had the 528i $14K more than the LS. If more prospective customers really understood and calculated the actual total cost of ownership the sales of luxury cars and SUV's would drop precipitously!

jackjt

I am 6'2" and my son is 6'4". We fit into his LSV8Sport with Sunroof without any problems at all.

slunar

Up here in the northeast we say that all Chinese restaurant menus must be printed in a basement in Bayonne, NJ (That is they all look the same and have questionable esthetics). Seems the guys in Bayonne have expanded beyond the Chinese menu design business and are now in chage of design for both Lincoln & Cadillac (probably building on the success they had designing the Pontiac Aztec). I sure hope the front end of the MK-9 has no bearing on the next LS sheet metal.

stanny1

Maybe the Aztek,the MK-9 and the Marauder were all designed by guys on AZT.

akirby

Good article just posted:

http://www.edmunds.com/news/innovations/articles/46873/article.html

giowa

Isn't there a company, something like Intellichoice, that attempts to compute 5-yr ownership costs for all sorts of makes and models? Guessing they'll have data for LS6, LS8, BMW 3, 5 & 7 Series. If I remember correctly, they look at depreciation, financing, insurance, fuel, maintenance, etc. Would be interesting to see how the LS is comparing to cars like Catera, 3 & 5 Series, 9-5, C class, Jag S-type, etc.

bajabill

I dont like the triptonic type of system because there is no physical reminder of what gear you are in. If I am doing the shifting, I want my hand to know what gear I currently am in via the position of the lever. Simply pushing up and down does not provide the feedback I want. Perhaps, using the system over time I would change my opinion. A steering wheel mounted paddle would be cumbersome in sharp turning environments, where the wheel is turned more than 150/180 degrees. I currently have the radio controls that are a wheel mounted up/down lever and I encounter this problem frequently.

giowa

I'm pumped. Can't wait to be there. I just called the Marriott Dearborn Inn number and made a reservation. They did NOT have any group listing for LLSOC. But said the $99 is the weekend special rate if you stay over Sat nite. (Brian: Did you contact the hotel to tell them about our group? Their people who do that didn't know anything about LLSOC.)

Would love to be part of the roundtable with plant manager and management. Hope there is a UAW foreman, too. Get the front line prospective. I'm going to bring all service records so I might be able to discuss specific part issues (e.g., heated seats).

airwolf1000

I am 5' 5" and I have plenty of headroom too! Just Kidding.. Seriously the seats are super comfortable and everything adjusts to fit me perfectly. Very Snug great for the turns. The Side Bolsters I wish would be adjustable. I do slip just a tad in the .84g turns.

By the way what kind of Leather is in the Towncar.. My LS is in the Shop for the tranny software update, oil change, headlight adjustment etc. The Town Car leather is really soft. I like the color of it also--white.

Regards,

joe166

Most dealers don't have a clue what those plans do to the pricing. They don't sell enough of them to worry about it. If you have an "X" plan letter (made available to Ford suppliers and such), they are supposed to sell you the car for whatever the price is which is generated by putting that into the computer. They can estimate it, but they might be wrong. I have found in buying two cars under it that it is generally much better than what you could get a "hot" car for, but not as cheap as a closeout. In other words, right now you might be better off availing yourself of some other deals. No cars are selling like hotcakes at the present time and you might be able to do as well or better. One advantage of the "X" plan is that you can still take advantage of special promotions like the lower interest rate and lower lease rates being promoted now. Go to a large dealer who does fleet sales and talk to a fleet manager. They usually have a much better handle on the effect of these special purchase plans. There is a better plan, but I think it is only for current and retired employees.

gkarg

Stan,
To be honest... i haven't had the time to tear my door apart, but I plan on doing so... The service manager at the dealership said that they replaced the original design with the updated, but I think he was just appeazing me and didn't know what was up - because this time... he said the replacement part will not be available until September.

SO... I will be driving my LS around with the rear window partially down (enough to hear significant wind noise) for the next month & 1/2.)

I think I will have to pull it apart and see if I can get the window to shut a little better.

gkarg

The cabin air filter is available on the fordpartsnetwork.com site for $19.95. That's where I got mine and it was a sinch to replace!

My car still gets the musty smell when it first comes on, but doesn't last. I forget to do the trick ronniepooh does by turning of a/c and letting it warm before arriving at destination. That might help...

ls1bmw0

gkarg: A month-and-a-half for the window regulators? I think you need to elevate that to the regional rep. That sure sounds like a load of hooey to me. The parts are in the supply channel and should not take that long to get.

I'm going to be at the Dearborn Inn on Friday so I will get a group code for the event. Doubt that the price will be any less than the $99/night rate but at least we'll have a code to go with. I'm also planning a happy hour for either Thursday night or Friday night, possibly both, depending on the Lincoln folks availability, since the Mania 1 happy hour was such a success.

Now giowa, don't go antagonizing the nice plant folk I'll be getting an agenda from them within the nex couple of weeks so we'll know what they want to do with the tours and the roundtables.

Brian

sdouglas2

All of the V6 LS calibrators are planning to be on a development trip in CO...

xwray

This would only be of interest to shiftless folk...

heyjewel

X-Plan: The price you pay and the amount 'off' depends, of course, on the price of the car. Saying $2300 off or $3900 off must refer to the total price of the car. In my experience, the price of an LS purchased with the X-Plan will be within a couple hundred dollars of the *invoice* price of the car with the options you want. You can get this price easily here on the Edmunds site. For a 2002 V6 sport w/moonroof invoice is $33721. Full sticker is $36445. Diff = $2724 + probably a hundred or 2.
So, appx $33500 for a V6/sport package w/moonroof (and std 6 disc changer in dash *AND* audiophile stereo *AND* Vehicle Communication System if early order) sounds like a hell of a deal to me, no matter how much 'off' it is!

Wixom show and tell sounds great. Maybe more time in the factory/with the Lincoln folks would be nice. Especially if there's someone in the owner's group who may possibly be long-winded and argumentative!? :>) Giowa: may I respectfully suggest you allow others their fair share of floor time? And please consider carefully what issues are important and which have already been traced to their source and solved. Example would be heated seats which Dick Cupka posted that Johnson Controls had redesigned and fixed months ago. I know you've had several heated seat failures - perhaps your dealer was installing 'old' heaters? But yours seems to be a fairly unique situation. And it just seems there are bigger more widespread fish to fry - 0h like perhaps paint, initial quality, fit/finish. They'd be on my list if I could be there, which I seriously doubt.

Donning full metal jacket here - I think the new Catera and the 2 Lincoln concepts pointed to above are a step in the right direction design-wise. They're modernistic, stylish and most important - they're recognizable rather than cookie-cutter imitations of existing sedans.
I do like the design of my LS, but I would not have complained if Lincoln designers had been bolder and broke away from the BMW, Lexus, MB basic style (not to mention the Diamante). Personally, I loved the look of the last Mark VIIIs, with the aero-look front end and the neon light-bar tailight treatment. I was frankly surprised at the conservative looks of the LS in comparison. Not complaining though - the LS has a timeless sort of look (tho perhaps because of the cookie-cutter effect?) BTW, last Sunday I parked in the driveway of an open house and while walking thru the house was able to look almost straight down on my LS from the deck. The car has a beautiful look/shape to it from an overhead view. But in sum, the bold new designs appeal to me and I believe it's a needed evolution in car design. I especially would be attracted if the interior, especially the dash, were designed on a modernistic theme. Present designs, LS, BMW etc, are rather uninteresting. Volvo S60 T5 I drove had an interesting dashboard treatment. It's important in my view cause after all, that's the view of the car the driver sees.

buckwheat

The "A" plan - lease or purchase up to four vehicles per year for active Ford employees and specific members of his family. The same applies to the "Z" plan - retired Ford employees and specfic family members. The "X" plan known as Family & Friends of Ford, 54,000 workers can sign up three people a year for savings, no manangement approval needed and no paperwork required in contrast to the "A & Z" plans where strict enforcement of the rules are in place.

The "X" plan also known as Ford Partner Recognition program. Ford suppliers and other corporations and some universities enjoy the benefit of the "X" plan. On the maufacturers invoice to the dealer (dealers copy) there are three prices listed - MSRP - dealer invoice - and located on the right side of the invoice is a box marked "A" plan. Anyone utilizing the ""X" plan receives a PIN# that is entered into the Ford network computer, when you approach a participating dealer about a vehicle he has he should without hesitation verify your eligibility via the PIN# and show you his copy of the invoice for the vehicle, all you need do is add 4% to the "A" plan price to arrive at the "X" plan price. No other benefits are included with the "X" plan pertaining to the vehicle at the time of lease or purchase, EX: no special pricing for accessories or extended service plans etc. (strictly dealer negoitations). The "X" plan does not apply to Mazda, the "S" plan does and terms are pretty much the same, except the "S" plan price is listed on the dealers copy of the invoice. Not all FOMOCO vehicles are included in either the "X or S" plans . All current rebates/incentives that may in place are in addition to the plans.

desertguy

Having had all four of my windows fail a various times, I can empathize with you. Way back when my first failures occurred, there was a wait of at least 3 weeks for the parts. (this was for the old part) It was explained to me that when parts such as the window reg. are short inventory, they order thousands made by the supplier all at once. i.e. they don't just make some every week. I would definitely go back to the dealer and have him raise and lock your window all the way up. Mine were at least up while I waited.