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Lincoln LS

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Comments

  • luxiluxi Member Posts: 8
    The Lincoln LS's August US sales is 2887, marking 2nd month in a row to be below 3000. Now LS ranked No. 10 in August luxury car sales, behind M-B C & E class, BMW 3 & 5 series, Lexus ES300. The LS used to top all those models except BMW 3 series for a long time. That's very alarming.
  • ezaircon4jcezaircon4jc Member Posts: 793
    The radio controls not lighting at night is most certainly the radio. The same thing happened to me upon delivery. After they replaced the radio a year ago, everything has been great!
  • smwls8smwls8 Member Posts: 103
    I have been looking for a low mile v6 5 speed to buy, as my V8 LS I currently have is a lease. I know they are rare, but can anyone give actual production numbers for the 2000 model year? What kind of prices on a 2000 LS 5 speed with say, 24,000 miles, clean? The wife and I are still extremely happy with the 2000 V8(23,000), but miss shifting for ourselves, and want to get another 5 speed before we return our current LS at lease end.
  • price8price8 Member Posts: 3
    It's kind of weird to hear that the Lincoln LS sales have dropped, because I live in the Montreal, Quebec area, and the first time I saw a LS was about 4 months ago. The LS looks very good and all, but to be honest, they seem to be kind of rare up here. I ask my friend the other day if he likes the Lincoln LS and he said "What's that".
  • thomas_lthomas_l Member Posts: 134
    Find another dealer. A consistent overnight battery discharge is so easy to diagnose it's not funny. Don't believe the smoke they are blowing at you. It's a matter of putting an ammeter inline on a battery post to see the current draw. Then you disconnect each circuit until the draw goes away, then diagnose whatever is on that circuit to find the culprit. An overnight problem will usually pull 500mA or more. For reference, a map light will pull about 2A.

    FYI: The usual cause for "mystery" battery drains are hidden lamps with broken/misadjusted switches. Trunk lamps and glove box lamps are common. So are map lights since they are easy to overlook in a brightly lit shop or outdoors in the sunshine. Make sure all those hidden lights turn on and off when they're supposed to.
  • johnnylincjohnnylinc Member Posts: 308
    I don't know actual numbers, but I believe that the run rate for manuals is about 3% of production, meaning that there were roughly 2,000 2000-model manuals produced. (Someone please correct me if that's wrong or way off-base.)

    A good place to see lots of used-car ads is Autotrader (www.autotrader.com). The upside is that you can search by model by zipcode, and reduce or expand your search from 30 miles to "all". The downside is that there are no selection criteria for engine, trans, etc., so you have to wade through ads until you find what you're looking for.

    It at least gives you an idea of what's out there and what asking prices you might find. There are currently more than 500 LS ads listed on Autotrader.

    Hope this helps a bit.
  • cwesleycwesley Member Posts: 55
    I may be able to help you find a car. You can email me at cswesley@att.net
  • airwolf1000airwolf1000 Member Posts: 225
    I have found that the LS is still relatively unknown. However now that they are out there in decent numbers people are getting edumacated. I friend of mine just realized the Distinction between the LS and the Conti. He thought I had a Conti (Or had a picture of a Conti in his mind) all this time! No wonder why he had a puzzled look everytime I told him it rode like it was on rails. He is not the only one. Many I know don't know the LS. I am 26 and had mine delivered the day before I turned 25. At least those of you in the Mid 30's and upwards its o.k. to be pictured in a Conti.

    Me on the other hand 25 with a Lincoln Continental? My friends painted me with a wide brush stroke I am sure as a wannabe Pimpdaddy!

    I think people confuse the LS with the Diamante or some sort of a BMW..

    Regards,

    Airwolf1000
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Pete;

    I have heard here on this board and elsewhere of this problem. Problem seemed to usually be a low resistance ground 'short' of the positive battery circuit node. I think in most cases the short was in the power wiring leading to/from the trunk and the engine bay. Runs on the passenger side of the vehicle, I believe.

    Good luck with it and keep going up the chain til u can get this resolved.

    Luxi;

    I haven't seen this months figures yet (can u point to where u saw them?) but I do recall the LS to be between #4 and #6 on the list of 'luxury cars' forever. A drop to 10th is a big move South.

    Personally, I believe one of the reasons for this is the sort of thing that Pete's dealing with. My 2001 LS has been great and I wouldn't trade it. But it has spent almost 2 weeks total in dealer for: body/paint problems from factory, non-working radio on delivery and replacement of the manual tranny shifter boot. (BTW, I'm still hoping someone has the shop manual and can briefly describe the change procedure for that boot.) And the dealer service has not been first rate. In fact, today I'll be calling to try to get them to fix a 'ding' that appeared in my pass rear qtr panel after I got the car out of their shop last week.

    The way Lincoln corporate is handling some of these chronic problems: dead batteries, crashed windows, poor build quality, ... is exacerbating the problem. They just don't seem to 'get it' that their customer service is going to be expected to be equal to or better than Mercedes, BMW, Lexus etc. And right now in most cases, it ain't.

    Consumer Reports has given the LS the worst reliability rating possible.This may or may not be a true assessment, but there are lots of folks who look at that pub as the bible for cars. Anyone thinking of switching from Japanese or German car to LS who sees those black circles in CR for the LS is going to have a real hard time justifying that switch.

    There is also I think some truth to the thought that the LS is not the great 'bang-for-the-buck' value re the competition as it was 2 years ago. The changes due in 2003 I think will have a positive impact on sales.

    But a bigger positive impact will happen *when* (not if, cause if don't make it in today's market) I repeat *when* Lincoln gets their build quality and parts reliability and customer service standards up to the competition. The word is out that none of these is true yet. When word gets out that they have turned this corner, the skies the limit for Lincoln (and Cadillac too).

    George
  • sclark8sclark8 Member Posts: 44
    The offending cable is on the driver's side running from the trunk to the engine compartment. If you carefully remove the plastic/chrome piece covering the entry/wiring chase, you can see the big red cable.

    I read on a previous post that someone was having trouble with the exact same thing and the dealer replaced the cable which solved the problem.

    Apparently, the insulation had rubbed through causing an intermittent big time drain on the battery.
  • airwolf1000airwolf1000 Member Posts: 225
    First of, Regarding the Firestone Firehawks Hydroplaning for Scottc8 I Think the firestones when new were great never Hydroplaned, very inspring as far as confidence goes in the Water. But man this past week I was definitely gripping the Steering wheel. I think that happens though to any car after 2/3's of the tread is gone. The grooves water carry capacity has been severely reduced. Firestone actually on some other tires not the Firehawks(I don't think) has designed the channel like a keyhole so that the channel gets wider as the channel wears and can carry more water or something to that effect.

    Now The problem is like we are all seeing is the Wet Season is upon us and we are at that point where are tires wet abilites are gone. I think we just have to replace them. Good thing scott you already have an extra set. I have to buy them. I remember a discussion about a year ago about people switching to see if improvement could be bettered. I think the results were mixed at best, but most actually saw less road noise, a little softer ride, but no big performance improvements. Correct me fellas if I am wrong. Also Jonathan Crocker (Vehicle Dynamics guy for the LS) and a race car driver at times told me at LS Mania the Firestone Firehawk LS were actually quite good. They tried various tires on the LS. Chartrand, I am going to stick to the Firehawks especially at $69 dollars per tire at the Tire Rack and get them installed at the local Firestone Shop. Besides I am looking to buy a 2003 LS if it is what I want and shelling out $150 per tires that might give little gain in performance and then not use them all is not appealing to me right now.

    Another option scott would be save the Old Firestones if they still have tread and use them in the Summer as Dry tires. Not sure if you want to go through the hassle but it could work. All I know is I am not going to hydroplane and wreck my car for a measly $400 installed to get the new Firestones on. Shoot my deductible would be higher than that.
  • sclark8sclark8 Member Posts: 44
    If you think car sales are only dropping at Lincoln, I think you need to pick up a copy of the Wall Street Journal.

    Have you looked at the Dow lately? The Lincoln LS is an upscale car that is purchased by people with a high paying job. Today the unemployment figures were announced for August and 1,000,000 jobs were lost. Mostly high paying jobs!

    Me thinks the economy has more to do with the drop in sales than the product. Of course, if you have been short this market; you can afford a new BMW 700 series.
  • ukrickukrick Member Posts: 66
    Did you know?

    102 Lincolns are on call to bring players, visiting dignitaries and other VIP's to and from the tournament? (That's 40 Navigators, 60 LS's and 2 Blackwoods.)
  • pete100pete100 Member Posts: 3
    Thanks for the input folks. Have forwarded your suggestions to the dealer. Dealer believes now that the battery may in fact not have been discharged at all but that there may be a power feed fault. This would explain the fact that the battery took no more than 1.5 amps under my own charger! I'll post the resolution IF there is one. In the meantime any and all help would be appreciated.
  • ronniepoohronniepooh Member Posts: 339
    can sometimes be found on Ebay. Yep, Ive seen them there. For grins, go to EBAY and do a search on Lincoln LS. I recently saw brand new, inthe bag front and rear seats, brand new factory CD Changers/Stereos, etc. Also saw a Lincoln LS Denim Jacket.
  • garnesgarnes Member Posts: 950
    I don't think Consumer reports is worth a rats behind. The September issue of Business Week quotes them as stating that US car quality is at Japan's 1985 quality level. But then they cite J.D. Powers rating the dodge intrepid as more reliable now than the Camry or Accord, and they rank GM a very close 4th behind Nissan in quality. So who's right?? I really don't care and I think these publications are as worthy as many of the "analysts" on Wall Street. Don't hold your breath waiting for CR to bless too many US cars. They will find something wrong such as the glove box being too small and weight that the same as the hard ride you get with an Accord (at least Edmunds here will acknowledge it). CR may really stand for Communist Reports. Who knows?

    I say just know your car or future car purchase for what is important to you. All this rating stuff is subjective at best and is based on a lot of things that may not matter to you.

    It does not surprise me CR trashed the LS. I pretty much expect them to trash anything I like.

    Just a thought - why didn't Lincoln use the 4.6 in the LS??
  • stanny1stanny1 Member Posts: 962
    To give you an idea of how big manual sales are:
    My LM dealer, Witt LM in San Diego (the largest LM dealer in California) sold a grand total of 7 manuals in 2000. I was one of those. This is a county of more than 2 million, so that is pretty small penetration. Now there is one other dealer in the county, and some come from Orange County. So how about maybe 50 LS Manuals in San Diego. The only other place I saw another Manual was at LS Mania I. And besides JR's, I think there were only a couple other Manuals. I know I ordered mine in June of 2000 and it came from a dealers lot in Orange County. It had a production date of 2/00 so it sat at the dealers for 2-3 months until I rescued it from the LA smog.
    At this volume, maybe the Manual will be a collector's car! I can tell my grandkids that Lincoln once made a Manual car. Of course, they will probably ask me what a manual transmission is.
  • packv12packv12 Member Posts: 95
    Oh my! While you all in the west can worry about the wet season, we in the mid-west have snow to worry about, probably next week, too!

    I've learned that it's a given, on average mileage per year, all season tires will not help in the third winter. I was facing my third year with the stones (not Fred and Wilma) and realized that tires would have to be changed! They were wonderful when new, but past experience has shown me that they needed replacement.

    I upgraded the tires to 18 inch Moda's with Michelin tires. I'm very pleased. I was lucky enough to find a fellow club member who wanted my old 17 inch wheels and tires (thankx Aircon!). We swapped tires and rims, so now I have his old 16 inch rims.

    For winter, I will be switching over to Blizzak's on all four corners. If you thought that the stones were great, wait a season. I've also noticed that TireRack offers an upgrade this year, $764 for two tires and two alloy wheels. I've got my four 16 inch wheels and four Blizzak's for $380.00, what a saving!

    I am an ancient type guy, so I remember changing over the tires for each season. I still think that it's a great mid-west American past time that shouldn't be fore gone! Heck, I even taught an old gal friend how to change a tire during the annual changeover! Amazingly, she appreciated that lesson and can change a tire to this day. It was great to hear her grumble about mini-spares when I last saw her a couple of years ago.

    I guess I rambled on way too far. All season tires are okay for the first couple of years, but they inherently are a compromise. Actually, for the first time, we mid-Westerner's have the best of both worlds. Sports tires in the summer and snow tires in the winter. It should be another fun winter in my LS.
  • scottc8scottc8 Member Posts: 617
    Thanks, airwolf, that was what I expected to hear. Don't congratulate me on having a spare set; I shrewdly jumped in and bought them when TireRack first put them on sale: $109/tire! I don't want to keep "summer" tires on year round because I'm cheap or lazy, and the Firehawks seem to be adequate snow tires, but nothing more. But in Colorado we get lots of nice weather in the winter and I hate to give up the performance. Plus, while winters here are mild compared to the Midwest, we get significant snow anytime from mid-Sept. to mid-May. Long snow-tire season.

    I've been real pleased with the Firestones but, since I drive over 25k miles/year, it sounds like they may be good for only one year for me. Keeping my current tires for next summer is an idea, but I don't like the idea of driving all puckered up (if ya know what I mean) every time it rains.

    Snowed a little in the mountains last night, more expected tonight. Starting to get into the '40s at night. We'll find out soon.
  • packv12packv12 Member Posts: 95
    I realize that you have a much snowier season then we do. I know that the roads that you traverse are worse than what I might encounter.

    I never intended that because people didn't change over, they were lazy or cheap, it's what I've done for years! Even the old T-bird I had was fitted with Blizzak's, very little to do with the T-bird, but more to do with my own mind set!

    I've enjoyed the "summer" tires, because they handle in a different way then the "all" seasoned tires"! I like the Blizzak's because of previous experience on the '95 T-bird. To say that I didn't enjoy the Firestone's on the LS is inaccurate, but I enjoy the Michelin's much better.

    My experience with has almost always been with taxi-cabs (45,000 per year), so like I say, it's personal experience. I personally prefer to change over each season, rather than worry about added expense.

    Much like the "GM" assurance that Firestone TCP's would it through the Rockie's without chains, that was proved wrong in 1971. In my mind, it was another "GM" bit of obfuscation!

    I was able to "unload" my 17 inch wheels without much problem and pickup some 16 inch rims at the same time! It has nothing to do with an inferior wheel or tire size, but more to do with a region in which we live.

    I'll accept that you feel that it has the most to do with where we live, but pease allow us in the mid-west to appreciate our own difference!
  • mrankellmrankell Member Posts: 21
    i just noticed that the battery "eye" is glowing red. I thought it is supposed to glow green, especially with only 200 miles on the car. Anyone, please?

    regards,

    m. rankell
  • chops00chops00 Member Posts: 7
    Well, the nearly unthinkable happened. Another motorist took dead center aim at the driver's door on my 2000 LS! I was travelling about 45 mph in the right hand lane of a four lane highway when the person turned left in front of me. The police estimate she was probably doing 15mph, but it was fast enough to knock me out of my lane and deploy her front airbags.

    The drivers door sheet metal is depressed approximately 7" (I used the very scientific method of putting my hand in the hole, sighting, and then measuring when I got home), the inside of the door and the pillar between the driver and passenger doors are pushed in against the seat. The top of the drivers door is sprung about 4" from the body. The passenger door took some of the impact also, sheet metal depressed significantly and slightly sprung door contact. BUT THE SIDE AIR BAG DID NOT DEPLOY. I asked the dealer's body shop to check when they repair (if the car isn't totalled by the insurance company) and have placed a call to Lincoln HQ (using the contact I had to solve some quality build problems) but so far, no answer as to why it didn't work. I'm not sure of the severity of the impact that's required, but I can't believe its' more than the one I took.

    I suffered no injury. A part of the suspension broke (I haven't heard what part(s) were involved) and the left front fender dropped down onto the tire and made it impossible to steer after the impact. I watched a utility pole go by about 12" from the right side of the car, took out a route marker and some brush on my way to a complete stop.

    Have to wait until Moday to get an idea of repair/replacement options. Despite the air bag issue, the LS earned its' side impact rating!
  • reneleblancreneleblanc Member Posts: 144
    Do you have the SST? Are you complaining about downshifting in automatic mode or SST mode? Do you know about training the LS transmission? You can systematically accelerate the training by manually shifting between the various gears and back repeatedly at the same speed in 5 MPH increments (after the transmission has been fully warmed up). If you don't do this, it will gradually train itself anyway during normal driving. If it upshifts sooner than you like, you can use SST mode to control upshifting when you want it to. Of course, accelerating harder in automatic mode will also extend the shift intervals.
  • einarvikngeinarvikng Member Posts: 21
    After a third visit to my dealer for some basic maintenance (oil and tire rotation) and some anoying warranty issues (door rattles), I have become rather displeased with the level of commitment these people have for their work. I have never walked out of the shop 100% pleased with the work or service. Missing lug nuts...wrong oil type (after writing it down for them)...doors still rattle, etc. If I treated my clients in this way, I would be out of business.

    Anyway, does anyone know of a quality Lincoln shop where the technicians give a hoot about their work in or south of Boston? There are quite a few to choose from, but I was hoping to not leave my next encounter to luck.

    I will be doing the oil and tires myself untill I can find someone to fix the rattles in a professional manner. Does anyone have an insite to door generated rattles? Lastly, since it seems like I will be doing alot of my own work on this car, which of the several shop manuals is the most helpful? Info like treadwear and brake pad wear specs. etc. Also, has anyone noticed their AC compressor making a ticking noise similar to noisy (lightly tapping) valves? My (ex)dealer's technician says the compressor sounds normal. I work in the HVAC business and have never heard this kind of noise from an AC compressor in good repair.

    Lastly, does anyone have over 50,000 mi.? How has the car been after warrenty? I fully expect to keep this car AT LEAST 200,000. Has anyone had to USE an extended warrenty plan?

    From the under 40 generation who could just barely scrape-up the cost of this car. It was worth every penny--so far.

    This is a great car and a great site.

    Thanks to all your posts and info.

    Scott
  • div2div2 Member Posts: 2,580
    Luckily you weren't injured, which tells me that the impact was not severe enough to deploy the side airbags. One of my friends had her new Jetta rear-ended by an inattentive driver in a Lexus(surprised?). The impact shoved the Jetta under a typically mangy POS Geo. The Jetta's belt pretensioners activated but not the front bags. She too, was uninjured.
  • scottc8scottc8 Member Posts: 617
    Sorry if I gave that impression, 'cause offense never entered my mind. And I sure didn't mean to sound critical of anyone else's tire choice. Just expounding a little on my dilemma. Bought my LS last October, and was a little apprehensive about winter after many years of driving AWD Subarus. I agree about "all season" tires, but they're all you need on a Subaru. The LS isn't going to "break trail" in six inches of snow, but for me it doesn't have to, and I was tremendously impressed with the car's performance on snow-packed roads and ice, with the stock tires. Now I'm reading that the Firehawks' performance in wet and snow diminishes rapidly, long before they're apparently worn out. Hence the dilemma. Do I plan on a set of Firehawks every year (25-30k miles)? Not such a bad deal, assuming they stay cheap and available. Should I find a better "all season" compromise? Not at all sure it exists. Or buy real snow tires? OK, but they're gonna see a lot of dry roads and high speeds. By the way, I was born in Chicago, grew up in eastern Nebraska, and have lived in Colo. for 23 years. It snows earlier in the year here, and later, but overall nowhere near as much as the midwest (especially Wisconsin!) If I lived near the Great Lakes, I'd be buying snow tires, not discussing them.

    First off, of course, I'll see how it goes when it snows (won't be long). And, if it stops raining later, I'll drag a new tire out of storage and measure the tread depth, then measure the tires on the car. Wonder how good my "good looking" 25k mile tires really are?

    einarviking: We have more in common than our names. I also stretched a bit to buy the LS and am looking for high mileage. My $.02 worth of advice: Synthetic oil for the engine, Zaino for the paint, Lexol or Hide Food for the leather. Sweat the details, like treating the rubber seals with silicone or Armor All every couple months. I've been driving fast over rough roads for almost a year, and have zero rattles or squeaks. When I pop the trunk release and then close the driver's door, the trunk lid comes up a few inches further from the air pressure inside the car. This thing is BUILT. Good luck finding a better dealer.
  • ls1bmw0ls1bmw0 Member Posts: 782
    You might want to check either the Registry or the Dealer Service page at the Lincoln LS Owners Club at www.llsoc.com. The Dealer Service page shows dealers that club members have specifically recommended or specifically put on the do not recommend list. The Registry lets you look at what the other members in your area rated their dealers for intial as well as ongoing service experience. A 1 is lousy, a 5 is great. There are quite a few listed in your area.

    The club project car (mine) has over 55,000 miles in just short of two years. My build date was 6/99 and I picked it up in 10/99. I have had very minor problems with the car outside of the ball joint recall. Headlights were replaced due to fogging, front window regulators replaced under a TSB due to creaking noise(contamination in grease), and a transmission reflash. I consider myself lucky, but not out of the norm. I know there are several people on the forum who have had numerous problems with their cars. The rear window fall-down appears to be a rather notorious and frustrating problem for quite a few owners.

    If you're planning on keeping the car that many miles and trying to decide if an extended warranty is worth it, I'd think about whether you have the financial resources to replace one of the more expensive bits of the car if it were to fail outside of warranty. A new transmission will set you back about $2,000, for example, a rebuilt will be about $1,000 (guesstimate). We've discussed the pros and cons on this board at length quite a while ago, and there really wasn't any consensus. It is a personal decision based on your comfort zone on what you can afford to pay for if things break versus how confident you are in the car to not break anything major.

    Me, I didn't get the extended warranty because I knew that with the miles I drive I would run out of that earlier than the number of years allowed, so I didn't see the value in it.
  • joe166joe166 Member Posts: 401
    This is a very complicated thing with Delta V considerations that I really don't understand although they have been explained to me many times. Many times the severity of the sheet metal damage has nothing to do with the actual severity as measured by the many sensors used to actuate the air bags. Unfortunately, I have to assume that the science and engineering involved have to take into consideration all of the people who have sued for unintended airbag deployment. I would think that if the person that hit you was going 15 mph and hit you while you were going about 50 mph, that would almost have to be a glancing blow that results in forces that, while damaging, is not the same as a stopped 15 mph T collision. Again, I am not an expert, but I have heard this discussed many times and think I kind of understand it. The point being that while there is much damage, the reason for airbags is to help you in the case where you would otherwise be impacting against the inside of the car. Perhaps the collapsing of your door lowered the amount of side impact your sensors received. I bet the sensors did their job. They USUALLY do.
  • rec3rec3 Member Posts: 22
    heyjewel noted that the LS has received a low rating on reliability from Consumer Reports, and I just checked on the J D Power web site where the LS was assessed 3 out of 5 on all categories except perfomance where it received a 4.

    These ratings seem inaccurate since I have read every posting of this group and there is a definite lack of reported serious mechanical problems with engines, transmissions, or other major components. There are issues: rear windows, heated seats, etc., but these would hardly warrant such a low rating. I seriously doubt anyone in this group would hold back any bad news. Before I made my LS purchase, I discussed maintenace issues with my local L-M service manager, and he told me the LS has been one of the most trouble-free entirely new cars L-M has ever produced.

    So where do these "experts" get their data? In a very informal poll at work, I was able to ask dozens of people if they had ever provided automotive information to either J D Power or to Consumer Reports. Although most were familiar with these rating services, not a single person had ever been asked to provide information by these organizations.

    I DO KNOW people that have had serous mechanical problems with late model Toyotas and Hondas, but I give these cars the benefit of the doubt since there are so many that give very good service.

    From my own limited observations, the LS is a reliable (but not perfect) vehicle that is being given low ratings without justification.

    What do you think?
  • klarson1klarson1 Member Posts: 60
    I also have a problem with door rattles. (of course I do)
    especially the LR. I've tried myself several times to locate the source but never had any luck.
    When at the dealer I requested them to look at it several times and each time they said "no problem found"
    If anyone has a suggestion for this I too would be grateful to hear it

    Kevin
  • ls1bmw0ls1bmw0 Member Posts: 782
    Kevin,

    I had a door rattle on my driver's side door and took off the panel. I found that there was a left-over screw left in the door which was rattling around. Took that out and took care of the rattle.

    By the way, with all the problems you've had, have you thought about contacting Lincoln Customer Service and asking what they could do to get you satisfaction and an end to your problems?
  • ezaircon4jcezaircon4jc Member Posts: 793
    Just picked up the Costco wheel brochure alphastein saw. IMHO the wheels look too busy and it appears that Costco or American Racing, whomever did the brochure, thinks that our car is FWD :(! The wheels on the car are in the FWD section.
  • netmogulnetmogul Member Posts: 21
    Brian, ditto on the door rattles. The dealers around here don't seem to be too hot at tracking them down. :-)

    Is there any documentation available on panel removal? On many cars it's a pretty delicate process -- What's it like on the LS?

    -Matt
  • stanny1stanny1 Member Posts: 962
    Door panel removal is covered at the club site, how-to section, speaker replacement. It's not that difficult.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Brian - did you really give BON permission to link to llsoc.com for the Wixom tour? I know advertising is important, but BON??
  • ls1bmw0ls1bmw0 Member Posts: 782
    Ummmm, no I didn't. Blue Oval News would be the last place that I would give permission to.

    I had posted on the TBird forum on BON about the TBird members coming over and joining the club and talking about the event but that was all. Somehow the thought of pulling people off of BON sounded rather like poetic justice.

    I just went over there and found out that we're the Top News story of the day after reading your post.

    Seems Robert Lane has no problem with "borrowing" trademarked logos either.

    I guess the good news is that he hasn't put us down as one of his affiliates. I'm not sure what the club should do at this point. I could ask him to take the information and logo off his site but I'm sure he'd throw the free speech argument back at me. If I tell him to take the logo off, then he'll probably make some negative stuff up and publicize that.

    Any suggestions?
  • mrankellmrankell Member Posts: 21
    How can I find out when my 2001 LS was built without asking the dealer.
  • noshonosho Member Posts: 119
    After my last car purchase, I received a questionnaire in the mail from J D Power. It was a pretty standard fill-in-the-bubble form. Have you had any failures in: engine, transmission, electrical, ...; how would you rate engine performance, transmission response, cabin sound level, rattles, etc. So the data collected is from actual new owners with no pressure to answer any of the questions.
  • ls1bmw0ls1bmw0 Member Posts: 782
    On the driver side door frame, right by the dashboard, there will be a sticker that has a whole bunch of information about your car. One of the things will be the build date in the format MM/YY.
  • netmogulnetmogul Member Posts: 21
    Hey, those directions you put together are pretty good, Stan. Thanks for sharing the knowledge! :-)
  • mrankellmrankell Member Posts: 21
    Thanks for the info.
  • drolds1drolds1 Member Posts: 247
    Brian, frankly I was a little surprised myself to see our logo on BON. I didn't want to think you gave him permission. I guess just wait a few days and see if it disappears. I don't know about making a stink over unauthorized trademark use at this point. I think you're right. We'd probably appear in a nasty article.

    mrankell-the service tickets that my dealer uses have the build date printed out along with the delivery date, delivery mileage, color, etc., that appears at the top. If your dealer uses a similar format, you get the exact day in addition to the MM/YY info on the vehicle tag. Mine was built 9/8/99-coincidentally, my daughter's birthday!
  • reneleblancreneleblanc Member Posts: 144
    I agree with your observation about CU automobile reliability reports.

    I have filled out the CU consumer survey for cars and other items several times, and the problem is that their surveys on automobiles don't ask the right questions. I finally wrote them a letter expressing my dissatisfaction with their automotive surveys, but received no response.

    The CU surveys don't provide a way to give adequate input about the severity of problems encountered. If a car has a minor leak in an engine valve cover the ding it gets is not differentiated from an engine that blew a head gasket, warped the head, overheated and needed a complete overhaul. A faulty tail light bulb counts as an electrical failure the same as if a major wiring harness shorted out and burned up.

    Whereas I do respect CU's testing methodology used for directly evaluating products, I think their consumer survey data collection and evaluation is very poorly done, to the point where I almost completely disregard it.

    This is too bad, because an automobile like the Lincoln LS, which has had a collection of relatively minor problems is getting a bad rap as if it really had a lot of more serious problems.

    In my opinion, another factor CU can't evaluate the ownership demographics for different vehicle types. I suspect Lincoln LS owners will tend to be more nit picky than owners of some other brands, resulting in more reported minor problems. I think this because I think more Lincoln LS owners are interested in the technical details and fine points of their automobiles than the owners of many other brands and models.
  • garnesgarnes Member Posts: 950
    nosho, reneleblanc, thanks for the information. It confirms what I've suspected all along. These rating are pretty worthless, but people that can't think for themselves mindlessly follow these reports as gospel.

    Anybody that thinks a survey sent to the owner of the car will be filled out objectively is a fool. I'm sorry, but you can't take the "pride factor" out. Especially someone that just bought an import for much more than a domestic. Many are going to dismiss problems. To acknowledge a problem is like asking the buyer to admit they made a mistake spending the extra 10 to 20k. That is not going to happen. They want to see THEIR car rated No.1. I'm not saying all are like that, but enough are. Scan the import boards and there is a lot of "my car is better than your car" attitude, and they have gremlins too.

    And yeah, a small glove box probably counts the same as a sloppy tranny to Communist Reports.

    Unless the issues are component specific, forget it. How the ratings are compiled/weighted/calculated should be explained in detail. If not, it's not worth the paper it's written on.

    I've even read comparisons here at Edmunds and the BMW's tranny was screwed up, but was dismissed. Same pass for a Lexus problem. Of course the Caddy had no get-out-of-jail-free cards, so it was last. All this stuff is so subjective, and you just have to remember - they can't sell magazines and reports if there isn't a lot of noise to make - good and bad.
  • streetracerstreetracer Member Posts: 134
    A owner will also want to give his car a high rating, for re-sale and prestige reasons. I think you see the same in income surveys for specific professions, they are always hire than the department of labor numbers which are based on IRS data.
  • ls1bmw0ls1bmw0 Member Posts: 782
    Okay, I am now going to admit that I have a huge amount of egg on my face. I am going to ask you to ignore the previous posts regarding hp increases. The test results are not a true indication due to the following issues with the tests. This has taken me four weeks to figure it out, by the way, and I'm not completely sure I'm right in my assumptions. A rocket scientist I'm not Any real engineers feel free to chime in and throw rocks at me.

    1. Initial baseline dyno testing was done in December. Weather conditions on test day was low 60's, barometric pressure of 31 inches and holding, humidity 20%. The stock 16" wheels and tires were used. I did have a modified snorkel with an extra hole, but not the ram-air modification. This produced a baseline reading of 207 hp. Premium pump gas used at that time was 92 octane Mobil.

    2. On the next dyno run on the same day with the Magnaflow setup, it showed 216 hp, an increase of 9 hp.

    3. The third dyno run, with the Borla and GMS mass airflow sensor, was done in August. Weather conditions on test day were 95 degree temperature, 29 inches of barometric pressure and falling, and 80% humidity. Pump gas used was Mobil but at 91 octane (they had just switched and I didn't realize it at the time). The car had the new 18" wheels and 245/45R18 tires, which when I compared them this morning by taking them off and measuring the stock 16 inchers to the 18 inchers had a difference in height of over 1 inch, with the 18 inchers being taller. This had the ram-air modification which replaced the stock snorkel with the breather tube. It did not have any extra holes to provide more airflow through the system. The dyno results in this configuration gave us 208 hp.

    4. The followup run the next day without the GMS sensor and using the stock sensor had almost exactly the same conditions except that the temperature was down in the 80s and barometric pressure was at 30 inches and rising. This dyno run showed an increase of 8 hp, which I attributed to the Borla without the GMS sensor. I incorrectly assumed that the GMS sensor was what caused the reduction in power.

    I did not take into account with the dyno runs adjustments for the following factors:
    Temperature, humidity, and barometric pressure.
    Tire size difference.

    When I got my most recent copy of Motor Trend C. Van Tune had an article about SAE standard testing criteria and correction factors. After I read that I started looking at the numbers again. I also downloaded a program that calculates horsepower gain or loss based on temperature, humidity, barometric pressure based on the SAE J816a standard correction factors.

    Based on the calculations I did using the Motor Trend article and comparing them to the software numbers which tied out close enough for me to consider them valid

    So here are the numbers that I calculated. Any of the engineering folks, please feel free to examine the numbers and contradict me. I'm feeling slightly out of my element right about now:

    With the Borla and GMS mass airflow sensor there is an increase of 23 hp. With just the Borla there is an increase of 11 hp. If you take a pessimistic view to the numbers you could say the combo is good for 20 hp and with just the Borla it's good for 10 hp.

    This falls in line with the claims both vendors are making, removing the typical advertising "adjustments".

    These errors on my part, does explain why the car did feel quicker with the GMS and Borla, especially after I opened up the airbox to let a lot more air flow through the system. Using a cone filter and blocking the heat coming off the engine should show an even better result.

    Brian
  • ls1bmw0ls1bmw0 Member Posts: 782
    LLSOC is not on the Blue Oval News site anymore. No permission was asked, or granted to them, to post information regarding the event, which is open to LLSOC members only.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    To einarvikng: It's nice to find a kindred spirit, someone who intends to own the car for a couple hundred thousand miles. I've had two cars past 200K miles and one (British, yet) past 150K, so tend to expect a properly-designed and maintained vehicle to do that sort of thing. I tried to make the problem statement a bit simpler with the LS by taking a pass on many of the options that, to me at least, are nothing more than maintenance items -- automatic transmission, automatic seat/mirror adjustments for two drivers, sun/moon roof, etc., and it is interesting to continue hearing of the "issues" people are having with them. I'm of the opinion that many, if not most, people who use quasi-luxury or true luxury automobiles lease them and could care less about long-term reliability of the type you and I are seeking. It'll be interesting to see if the ten or twelve of us who bought the car and intend to keep it are happy five years down the road.

    Consumer Ratings: Like Rene, I've filled out a few of the Consumer Report surveys, and they take ten minutes or so to do. I have the opportunity weekly to fill out two to five "opinion surveys" at work, or at the hotel I'm using, or the airline I'm flying on, or. . . We all know the drill. Point being, we're all inundated with surveys, and I suspect that most people blow them off unless they have an axe to grind. I've got Click & Clack to thank for a quote I use often, which is "happiness = reality - expectations." The LS is an entry-level luxury sport sedan. Many of us buying it bought the hype that it was the equal of BMW, Lexus, Audi, Infiniti or whatever for "thousands less." Guess what? You get what you pay for. The LS costs less that any RWD or AWD sedan in its size class and it delivers less. Duh. However, many people bought it with the hope that one could get a $40 - 45K car for 10K less. Well, you can't, and the disappointed people with their transmission reflashes, multiple rear-window repairs (if they're lucky enough to have a dealer who has the parts), ball joint recalls, and all the rest are VERY likely to fill out those forms we've all grown so tired of.

    Engine Performance Measurement: Here's a subject I've worked with a lot, for gas turbine engines. When we do performance runs, the barometric pressure is a very significant correction factor, as is inlet air temperature (and fuel temperature, for the truly anal). We measure all that stuff on our engines in development testing and for the sales run on production engines. . .and it varies all over the place. We'll often do a "digital scan" for a sales run and find that we're a few tenths of a percent under (on thrust) or over (on fuel consumption or EGT), but if we wait a minute or two and do it again, the engine makes the points and can be sold. Point here is that all this stuff matters, and any internal combustion engine can vary 10 - 20% in its performance based on inlet temperature, barometric pressure and (to a lesser extent) humidity and fuel temperature, among many other things. How hot is the oil (viscosity), how old is the oil, what is the real heating value of the fuel, etc, etc. Hang in there Brian. Sounds like you're on the right track toward making the proper corrections for the LS add-ons.

    Frankly, I miss Giowa. While he was a pain in the [non-permissible content removed] sometimes, he made quite a few worthwhile points, in my (never) humble opinion.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • lolaj42lolaj42 Member Posts: 420
    As Brian can now attest, and cdnpinhead points out, ambient air temperature/pressure/AND humidity play a very large role in engine performance (how much oxygen is present to support combustion). However, as I can attest (as a former test engineer in the same gas turbine engine plant that cdnpinhead works), the data aquisition equipment is all connected to a computer(s) where data correction is applied to take these (and a host of other) paramenters into account.

    Frankly, I am a little surprised that the folks with the dynomometer and data aquisition equipment either didn't correct the data when it was aquired (either during, or after the test), or didn't even suggest that the data needed to be corrected. As Brian now knows, this is ABSOLUTELY essential in making apples-to-apples comparisons. Back-to-back testing is a staple of engine testing, with ONLY those engine components under test being changed from one run to the next. Most engineers will also attest that the more similar ambient conditions are between runs, the better because you don't have to rely on the correction factors as much.
  • markls8markls8 Member Posts: 42
    Brian - now you've got me curious about wheel/tire size and horsepower. I'm a bit rusty, but as I remember it the dyno measures torque, not horsepower, horsepower is calculated from the torque measurements. My take on this is that changing the outside diameter of the drive wheel will actually change the torque reading, but when the horsepower is then calculated the wheel diameter change will have no (significant) effect.
    lolaj42 , cdnpinhead , any thoughts ?
    - Brian.
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