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I like manuals because.....

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Comments

  • tallman1tallman1 Posts: 1,874
    Are they both 6 speeds? If so, then might be optioned a bit differently? They play around sometimes and you're not suppose to notice.

    The stick is 6 speeds w/o VCM, the manual is 5 with VCM. Other options are the same. Of course, even at the same price, the manual would be my choice. :)
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,346
    What is VCM? When you said stick, were you referring to the auto? I only ask cuz you said the 5 sp is manual. Sorry I am not up to speed with new Hondas.
  • tallman1tallman1 Posts: 1,874
    Oops, I meant the automatic has 5 speeds. The manual has 6.

    VCM stands for Variable Cylinder Management. Essentially it shuts off either 2 or 3 of the 6 cylinders when you are cruising at highway speeds in order to save gas. Some people have complained about the roughness and others don't notice. There's a whole forum around here about it.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,346
    Oh, is that the same tech that was used years ago in the 3.5 V6 that was an optional engine I believe in the Ody van? They claimed about 3 or 4 mpg better.
    Or is VCM brand new?

    Sounds like what they did with Dodge V8's a few years ago.

    I guess they have perfected it since the old 8-6-4 in the Cadillac's eh? They were a disaster. I guess with today's electronics they can shut of the fuel injectors to the non firing cylinders, and not have the cyl walls washed down with gas.
  • Perfected? Depends on who you ask. Some Accord owners aren't fans.
    Honda Accord VCM

    I have no personal experience with this technology - just observing what others are posting.

    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • tallman1tallman1 Posts: 1,874
    Yeah, same principal that GM used.

    And yes, they use that in the Ody and now the Pilot too. The Accord Crosstour also has it... but alas, the Crosstour has no manual available. :(
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,346
    :( to be honest, Kirstie, I'm just not that surprised. I was hoping to give them (Honda, and I wonder.. but probably Dodge also?) the assumed benefit of the doubt as technology progresses. I guess we can deduce (rightfully so) that some things shouldn't be messed with.

    The whole principle of shutting off cylinders that are still connected to (and prone to the exact same reciprocating mass, less a power-stroke) the same crankshaft, I have never really been onboard with, no matter how optimistic I have tried to be about the prospects.
    Just goes to show..trust your instincts..
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,346
    edited February 2011
    You know, my bias towards my confidence in Honda as an engine builder, does get questioned from time-to-time. And this is a perfect example.

    Another, is my (presently still owned and used but not without some serious internal bits attention) 5 hp Honda snowblower. The governor failed (due to a very cheap plastic {actually nylon, but with not enough pork} gear on the very inside of the engine to control the governor. Briggs has perfected that very same governor operation but instead, with a super cheap but effective external, wind-vane governor control. So a person might reflect on this as an over-engineered and complex governor.
    "Mr.Honda...you aren't always the perfect engine designer/builder. Don't rest on your laurels just yet. As consumers, (some of us) are watching what you screw up".

    But lest I get accused of getting on their case too much, I'll add that the engine in my CRV is so smooooth, that if, at times, I have the tunes very loud, sometimes it takes me a few minutes to realize that I forgot to upshift to 5th from 4th as I made my way from a 30 to 35 to 50 mph zone. That's an impressive compliment in case anyone was not sure why I mentioned it..
  • tallman1tallman1 Posts: 1,874
    sometimes it takes me a few minutes to realize that I forgot to upshift to 5th from 4th

    I've had that exact thing happen to me in my 06 Accord. My 95 was much noisier and I could easily hear the engine.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,346
    I think they are the same engine aren't they? 04, 05 and 06's. Might be tuned slightly different. Mine is 2354cc 160 hp at 6000 rpm 162 lb-ft at 3600 rpm and CR of 9.6:1. If I were to guess, I'd say in the Accord they might have bumped hp a bit and maybe lost a few lb-ft torque, or if not, then peak is likely above 4000 rpm.

    Technically though, no two engines come off the assembly line in exactly the same perfect balance. One can extra buttery smooth, and the other one beside it not so much. That becomes more evident if the engine design is a bit raspy to begin with, except non are ever buttery smooth.. :sick: (GM's Quad 4, Ford's old 2.3, Chrysler's well...many of their 4's) etc
  • tallman1tallman1 Posts: 1,874
    Mine is 2354cc 160 hp at 6000 rpm 162 lb-ft at 3600 rpm and CR of 9.6:1. If I were to guess, I'd say in the Accord they might have bumped hp a bit and maybe lost a few lb-ft torque, or if not, then peak is likely above 4000 rpm.

    You pretty much nailed it... It's the 2354cc i-VTEC engine.

    Same displacement but HP is 166@5800 and Torque is 160@4000. Compression Ration is 9.7:1.

    I absolutely love this car. :)
  • samm43samm43 Posts: 195
    An impressive and comprehensive list (including a few mentioned later).
    Will it convert those who will not be converted? Probably not. Their loss.
    I doubt that was your intention though anyway in this day and age.

    Still, it is cool to see the stick faithful here.

    Sam
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,346
    ...there IS a place in the world for an automatic.

    To be fair, though, to myself..I never claimed there wasn't a place for autos. Anyway, I admit now that due to new health issues, I too will be considering an automatic for my next vehicle. Probably will be a 5 or 6 speed.

    Standards still suit younger, non arthritic knees and I still maintain they are the transmission of choice for most racing duties.

    Just an FYI, if you happen to be considering a stick in Toyota Matrix, Corolla and the Pontiac Vibe, first read the entire thread called "Matrix Transmission Problems". It sure proves two things. Not all standard trans have good design or longevity potential no matter how diligent the owner, and also that Toyota dropped the ball on these poor victims who trusted the brand to do the right thing. Reminds me of how Mazda dropped the ball the rust issues on earlier Proteges. That's another enlightening thread to read.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,403
    edited January 2013
    I still maintain they are the transmission of choice for most racing duties.

    There are no clutch pedals any present day F1 car or prototype sports racing car. Most other classes of race cars are rapidly abandoning the old manual setups since the twin-clutch setups (invented by Porsche) transmit power better and shift much faster.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,346
    edited January 2013
    Well talk to me when bikes go the same route..oh wait...they are even more prone to breaking lose if the engagement transition isn't babyass smooth..

    FWIW, I've raced and no one I know would consider racing with an FJ1300 type dual clutch tranny in whatever race bike you wanna prepare..

    Yes, the technology is getting better because of micro-processing abilities always improving, but think back decades ago before there was any computer on earth...you simply COULD NOT beat the dexterity of a skilled human hand judging clutch takeup and final engagement when hiked over with everything on the cusp of scraping..

    Anyway, probably you are gonna disagree and I'm going to be ok with that..

    FWIW #2..I absolutely KNEW someone was going to mention F1 in some context or another. But what did surprise me, was how little time it took..haha.
    Cheers, have a good one..
  • fintailfintail Posts: 32,937
    edited January 2013
    Of course, bikes and cars are kind of apples to oranges - power/weight issues, power delivery systems, and so on.

    Also, racing is kind of different from everyday riding or driving. If you aren't competing, it becomes less important.

    I say, bring on more automated clutches on cars and bikes. I like to shift, but I grow tired of clutch work in a car or on a bike. I use the tiptronic feature on my daily driver constantly, and my ancient car with a weird prehistoric non torque converter automatic also gets shifted manually. Most bikes I have ridden have featured stiff neglected clutches - so I just got aggressive and shifted without using it :shades: Computer controlled clutches in cars are becoming common, but not on bikes yet - probably due to size/weight issues and cries from luddites who also hate ABS on a bike. Only clutchless bikes I have seen are the unloved Mana, bizarre Honda VFR , and the big FJR. There will be more. Clutchless speed shift (upshift) capability seems to have potential, I know it is on S1000RR and Tuono anyway. Let me shift, but take out a likely needless step in the process.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,346
    edited January 2013
    I appreciate your thoughts on this topic, fintail. I will point out though that my opinions are derived more specifically with downshifting, than upshifting, although not by a lot when it gets right down to it. Racing is racing. But in a lesser grey area, in terms of draggers, a competent automated clutchless (as opposed to the manual 'armstrong' sense) system can actually trim hundredths or even thousands of a second. While minute differences, is sometimes enough to get the best time, nonetheless.
    That said, and I recall you ride also from previous chats in the past, so I know that you too can appreciate that even upshifts require delicate intervention of the personal touch kind in certain circumstances..hence your points about power to weight ratios etc.. and I will add, even though you too were probably thinking also.. the lesser contact patch that a bike has to deal with compared to the plantedness that 4 tires at 4 corners provides.

    The principle of my point here is, of course, that when it gets down to exploring those limits of traction..it's still pretty hard to beat a personal hands-on with a skilled rider at the controls, especially when power to weight ratios are in the extreme. Also though, I say that with the thought in mind that my clutch cables were always well lubed, sharp routing corners always eliminated, and even if dealing with hydraulic actuation, I also regularly lubed my pivot on the clutch handle. When going for a Sunday ride with friends and even strangers when stopped for some bench racing I have offered (and been taken up on the offer many times) to grease (silicone type) a neglected clutch pivot pin, on the spot.. and am always amused with the comments after on our next break. "Oh wow!...My clutch feels so smooth now and the feedback is fantastic!! Thanks man, I'll stay on top of that from now to be sure!" Brass bushings have that ability to mask true fluidity feel..but it still performs better when lubed and the difference is always noticeable.

    As for shifting without the clutch, I'm not one of those guys who do it. Yes, cassette bike trannys allow this, but nonetheless..longevity and overall feel of the upshift still can't compete as smoothly as using the clutch.

    All that said tho..I recall more than once when I got stuck in multilane traffic jams and I sure wished for a switch that allowed me to choose an 'automatic' mode of some type. I'm talkin' severe clutch hand cramp of course.. even with the power of hydraulics to compress clutch springs on a big displacement engine, it still can old pretty fast in those circumstances.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 32,937
    I find operating a clutch on a bike much easier than driving a manual car, which is probably why I am not against having a bike, while I have no plans to buy a manual car. Even with that said, I think it would be nice to not have to deal with it most of the time. Maybe a switchable system can exist that can be full manual for racing, and clutchless for normal driving. I have no intentions of racing in any competitive fashion, where the automated system wouldn't be loved. It would work for me, and I suspect most users. I bet BMW has something like this in the works already.

    Good point, a bike has more delicate contact patch/balance issues, which IMO makes them even better candidates for an automated clutch which can remove some potential for error. Many riders, myself included, aren't experts, and removing this room for error might help other skills. I am not advocating a full on automatic shift nor would I want one, mind you. I like shifting. But if an automated clutch can be as good as 99% of skilled manual users, and be safer for normal users, why not? I also live in a hilly area, it could solve issues with that too.

    Last summer, I rode a 20+ year old bike with a very stiff lever, after an hour my left hand was a cramped up mess, and it ached for days. It has me jaded. I am looking at bikes now, and ease of clutch use will rank high, along with the bike tolerating clutchless shifting. I want something that is light enough to be operated by a finger or two, has an early take up point, and I like that slipper clutches are becoming more common.

    On the car topic, back in the 90s, my dad bought a 68 Fairlane out of an estate, 289, 3 on the tree. It was a bear to drive, I think the clutch needed work - seemed the take up point varied with each shift, and the car having manual steering and brakes didn't help. I see why he would leave it in 2nd for most lower speed driving. Haven't wanted to drive a manual since.
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