Which Hatchback?

muffin_man

Amazingly accurate. I bought my Si for $15,980 exactly 19 months ago. I know people are still getting them for $17,000 though.

vadp

Both the SI and the Mazda3 hatch will outhandle the Focus.
I wouldn't be so sure.
BTW there's no difference in hadling abilities between the Mazda3 hatch and the sedan.
Actually the sedan has better responses thanks to its smaller and lighter standard engine.

empiredj

Your most likely not performance minded like myself. I would consider a Prius only for delivery use. High MPG doesn't interest me.

 But looking strictly at performance -

 I would say the torquey nature of the Aerio SX or Ford Focus ZX-5 will have what you need, at a price that very affordable.

 I just bought a ZX-3 hatch with Comfort package and I'm suprised at the car's pace actually.

 It feels good stock, but with the things I have planned for it, alot of cars will be seeing Focus tailights on a regular basis. Unlike the outgoing and disapointing Zetec engine, the better cylinder head design (by Cosworth) and larger displacement almost put the SVT Focus to shame. In fact there have been several reports that the ZX-3 with limited options is FASTER in the 1/4 than the SVT and on pace with the Sentra SE-R Spec V. For a car that cost me a total of $13500 after rebate, tax and fees, it a total performance bargin.

 Not to mention only the Civic has an aftermarket larger than the Focus. I think you would be happy with a Focus ZX-5 and a few aftermarket changes under the hood and to the suspension.

 But that's 1/4 mile guy and general performance nut talking, your mileage may vary...

blueiedgod

Qoute: Your most likely not performance minded like myself. I would consider a Prius only for delivery use. High MPG doesn't interest me.

Isn't definition of car perfomance to squeeze as much power out of an drop of gasoline? The true high perfomance cars are the TDI's and the hybrids of the day. They give you the most bang for the buck. You are confusing perfomance with "exictment"
Yes a Ferarri is an "exhilirrating" car to drive, but from technical point it is not a performance car. Anyone can stick a V12 in a light weight car and make it go fast. It is in no way a high perfomance car. Luckily you confessed you self to be a quater mile guy "But that's 1/4 mile guy and general performance nut talking, your mileage may vary..." Once again, anyone can drive straight. Please don't get offended or anything.

midnightcowboy

No it 0-60 mph and 1/4 mile times. Also there is standing start 5-60 mph and 50-70 mpg which is questionable in amnual transmissions in high gear.

If mpg is you goal then get a bike , either kind or an Insight 5-speed.

nippononly

agreed...performance is in the acceleration and handling, not in the best mileage.

vadp: I test-drove all three, and that opinion was based on what I experienced. But be advised that the Mazda3 hatch only comes as the 's' variant - bigger rims, wider rubber, extra sway bar. The 's' sedan has the same package, but the one you mention with the smaller engine is the 'i', which has small wheels and tires, no sways.

And as for the Focus, I would definitely take the regular hatch with the 2.3 as opposed to the low-torque SVT 2.0. I am not saying which would be faster, just that I prefer the low-end torque if I can get it without a big mileage or speed penalty.

muffin_man

The problem is, you are simply picking an alternate and arbitrary definition of performance. What you say makes some sense, but it's not the commonly accepted definition of performance when applied to cars.

It's like trying to convince powerlifters that they should really call themselves strengthlifters.

jontyrees

....qualifies me to address DGS's concerns:

"Actually I can think of a few more shortcomings of the Suzuki Aerio. Here is my short list: Almost no storage space in the cabin, low-grade interior plastics, sloppy handling, no side airbags available, no moonroof option, no heated seat option, skinny 15" wheels, a small gas tank, and ugly as sin."

Storage space needs improvement, (I already pointed that out) - I added a little Neoprene sack to the passenger side of the transmission tunnel - holds my sunglasses and other junk - not that big a deal for me.

Interior plastics seem OK to me, better than my '99 Trooper had, worse than my '93 Diamante had, definitely better than a brand new Chevy Trailblazer I just rented.

Sloppy handling - not even close. Maybe a bit more body lean than I'd prefer, but that's more a function of it being tall than anything else. It handles just fine.

Side airbags - I wouldn't order them - the car performs well enough in crash tests for me.

Moonroof - completely pointless option to me, but any dealer can have an aftermarket moonroof installed.

Heated seats - I live in Texas

Skinny 15" wheels - since when are 195/55/15 tires considered "skinny"? The tires on an Echo look skinny.

Small gas tank - I think it's 13 gallons, (I've put 12 gallons in mine before), and at an easily achievable 27mpg mixed use driving that's 351 miles. Works for me.

Ugly as sin - obviously totally subjective. I happen to like the way mine looks.

DGS mentions the editors at Edmunds having the same misgivings. Would these be the same editors that voted the Aerio "Most Wanted" low price small wagon last year and runner up in the category this year?

Clearly it's a love/hate car. I love mine, maybe the haters couldn't keep up with one on the road?

backy

Yes, those are the same editors... also the same editors that put the Aerio last in their latest comparo of "compact wagons" (or hatchbacks, depending on how you look at it), with the Matrix first and the Focus ZX5 fourth. The Most Wanted field was pretty limited--the Kia Rio and Scion xB were the only competition with the Aerio for that award this year, and the Rio was the only competition in 2003. In fact, the field was so limited in 2003 they didn't even name an Honorable Mention.

ssg

I purchased a Scion xa last month and had it for ten days before it was wrecked in a 70mph, 3 car accident on the freeway. The car was totaled but my boyfriend ( he was driving and the only person in the vehicle) walked away with a bruise and a scratch. Just wanted to provide some real world crash test info on the model.

walker

I have been looking at the protege5 and am going to test drive one tomorrow. Does anyone have any opinions on whether or not this is a good family car? I will be the primary driver, so, since I'm a stay-at-home mom, mostly just around town and short trips. Is this car dependable, economical, etc...Will it be too crowded with two carseats? Is this car good in the snow? Right now I have a nissan altima, which with good tires has been excellent in the snow. Will the protege5 compare? Thanks for any help anyone can offer.

coilean

I have been looking for a moderately priced, fuel efficient HB, and was all set to get the Elantra GT, which offers terrific bang for the buck as well as an extensive warranty and a great ride. I had even gone so far as to spend the $35 on the Fighting Chance package for it.

However (thanks to the package, although I should have found it on my own), I found it is a dismal failure in the single most important aspect of any car I would consider owning, and that is safety. Check out the IIHS safety rating for the Elantra at: http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0103.htm

These ratings should not be taken lightly. The IIHS is a nonprofit funded solely by automotive insurers, expressly for the purpose of improving safety in car designs (a goal which automotive insurers have an obviously honest interest in). A recent IIHS study conducted using a federal database of all fatal crashes for the last 12 years showed that drivers of a vehicle with a "Good" rating were 74% less likely to die in an accident than drivers of a vehicle with a "Poor" rating, full article here: http://www.iihs.org/news_releases/2004/pr020504.htm

Apparently, the Elenatra front airbag sensors are flawed (a problem which Hyundai has publicly acknowledged for the passenger side sensor, more here: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Business/US/hyundai_airbag_040623-1.html), leading to delayed airbag deployment in some cases, a cause of serious head/neck damage to crash test dummies in 2 of the 3 40mph frontal offset crash tests conducted by the IIHS, more here: http://www.hwysafety.org/news_releases/2001/pr071701.htm

Much as I like everything else about this car, I will no longer consider driving one on a regular basis even were it given to me for free. The Kia Sephia is another moderately priced HB I have to put in the same category. I'll probably go with a Focus, as I can't really justify the extra $5-8000 for a Civic SI, Prius, M3, Golf, or RSX, considering Ford's current $3K cash back.

backy

Were you thinking about buying a new Elantra GT, a '04 model? The IIHS test results apply only to '01-'03 models. The '04 model was retested by the IIHS earlier this year, but the results have not been published yet. Hyundai would not have asked for a retest unless they had made some changes to the car that would affect its crash performance. I have talked to HMA about the 2001 IIHS tests and they told me they could not find a problem in the airbag system. They said the Elantra uses the same airbag sensors as does the Sonata, and those worked fine in the IIHS tests. They did redesign the front seat track in '02; the driver's seat moved forward in the IIHS test in '01 and caused "injury" to the crash dummy's leg.

Also, the ABC News story on the problem with the Elantra's OCS sensor, which is in the front passenger seat, has absolutely nothing to do with the IIHS test results from 2001. My '04 Elantra GT's OCS sensor works as designed. It is easy to test it at the dealer to ensure it works properly before you buy the car.

If you really want an Elantra but are concerned about the IIHS test from 2001, you could wait a bit to see if the IIHS publishes the test results on the '04 soon. Re Sephia, you meant Spectra, right? Did you check the IIHS test results on the Spectra (not the brand new design, but the "old" '04 model)? They are terrible. The "new" Spectra hasn't been tested by the IIHS yet, but it shares the platform and many components with the Elantra. So the Focus 5-door might be the best bet for you (the 3-door's rear side impact score is terrible). If you want the best crash scores and want a hatchback, the Matrix and Vibe have excellent crash scores and have much better predicted reliablity than the Focus, but do cost a little more.

coilean

Thanks for the detailed reply! Yes, I was referring to the Spectra; the actual IIHS test was done on a Sephia, but the results should be applicable to its HB version as well.

I do realize the airbag issues tested by the IIHS and those highlighted by the ABC news stories are different animals, but both show a delayed airbag deployment which is quite troubling, and dangerous, regardless. I didn't find anything to indicate Hyundai had "fixed" whatever the issue might be in their '04 model (probably because I don't know where to look), but it's nice to hear that the issue may have been addressed.

I'm not yet in any real rush to replace my inherited '95 Cutlass (I have been considering it for over a year and still haven't gotten around to it ), so I will wait to see what IIHS has to say about the '04 Elantra before I decide to "upgrade" to something smaller, more economical, and less likely to need repairs in the near future. It would be nice to know before the $1500 Hyundai rebate offers expire at the end of August, but thats probably too much to hope for .

backy

Rebates should increase as we get close to year-end. I found exceptional deals on '03s at the end of last year (e.g. $2000 rebate + $1000 owner's loyalty). I almost traded my '01 for a new '03 but the dealer didn't budge as much as I wanted on a discount.

One thing we need to be clear on, though: the Occupant Classification System problem on the '04s is not a "delayed air bag" kind of problem. It's a case where the front passenger air bag should be activated by someone above a certain weight, but is not. As I noted before, it's easy to check whether the OCS sensor is working right by taking your family with you to the dealership and making sure the airbag is activated and deactivated when it should be, i.e., activated when someone who weighs more than 55 pounds sits normally in the seat, and deactivated at other times. There's a light on the dashboard that indicates whether the air bag is activated or not.

backy

IMO people who have this problem with their '04 Elantras would be better served contacting the NHTSA about it and petitioning for a safety recall action instead of going through a lengthy class action suit.

jimijames

yeah but if they go the NHTSA, nobody pays them! It would also show that they are actually concerned about other peoples safety when we all know it's about a bunch of lazy bums looking for a big payout... ticks me off. Sorry for the rant, but I'm with Backy on this one... there is no reason for lawyers and class action suits on this issue. Should Hyundai do something about it? Absolutely. But do they owe you big money for it? NO!

gagrice

The only people that get any money from class action lawsuits are the attorneys for the Plaintiffs & Defendants. Don't be deceived by thinking you will get something for nothing. We need Tort reform to curtail this kind of ignorance that is destroying this country. Nothing or no one is perfect so at some time we all could be sued for not being perfect.

sparky56

Best of all possible worlds would be for NHTSA to do their job and make safety class action suits unnecessary. IMO

backy

They can't do their job if no one complains to them. I checked the NHTSA database not long ago for another reason, and I didn't see any record of complaints on the OCS for the '04 Elantra.

csandste

"Thanks for the detailed reply! Yes, I was referring to the Spectra; the actual IIHS test was done on a Sephia, but the results should be applicable to its HB version as well."

Whoa there, don't buy the old platform Spectra when the new Spectra5 is about to be introduced. I've driven the Focus and Elantra extensively and the new Spectra5 is the one car I'd probably choose over either of them. On the other hand the existing Spectra would be at the very bottom of the list.

jontyrees

I don't trust anything the IIHS says. Seriously, do you think an organization funded by insurance companies is in any way objective?

larsb

Their objectivity might be clouded, but their number one goal is to improve safety and reduce costs of repair.

I cannot see how that can possibly be anything but good for car owners.........

backy

The barriers they slam cars into is pretty objective.

rctennis3811

Check it out...

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=7415

Aerio pics are on the last page!

backy

Looks like major improvements for the Aerio, particularly the interior and the air bags. Could be a real contender now if Suzuki keeps the price reasonable. The Reno also looks interesting, but is saddled with a ho-hum powertrain. At least they saw fit to give the Reno side air bags standard (along with the '05 Forenza).

rctennis3811

To me, it seems as if Suzuki is really targeting the MAZDA3 now with the Aerio's sharpened looks and improved interior. Frankly, I'll take the Aerio because it's cheaper, more fuel efficient, makes only 5 less HP from the same displacement as the 3s but more torque at a much lower RPM all without VVT, and the warranty is better.

rfruth

Is the (04) Aveo included in GMs "72 hour" sale (zero financing or big time cash back) If so some say get a Corolla over a Prius & save $$, I say get a Aveo and really save $$ if thats a priority.

nippononly

now that Suzuki will sell the Reno which is basically a Matrix and Mazda3 hatch competitor, will it still ALSO sell the Aerio SX? Won't they be almost identical in most respects, if so?

backy

I see Reno as more of an Aveo/Rio/Accent competitor (next Accent will be available as a 5-door hatch) at the low end and maybe Spectra/Elantra at the high end. I see the Aerio SX aimed more at Matrix and Mazda3.

rctennis3811

The Reno and Aerio SX are about the same size. The Aerio is aimed more at the teenager/youth crowd and is more of a MAZDA3, Matrix, Focus competitor whereas the Reno is aimed at the new family crown who wants a luxurious car without the luxury pricetag.

billmchale

Ok, my question, when is the new Spectra Hatchback actually become available? All the advance info said summer; its fall now, and its still not on Kia's website.

rfruth

To heck with the Spectra, the Chevy Aveo http://www.chevrolet.com/aveo/ is available now but is it subject to GMs 72 hour sale ?

billmchale

Well if you like the Aveo great, but it is a little too small and a bit underpowered for my needs. The Kia Spectra 5, along with the Elantra GT, the Ford Focus and the Matrix XR are sort of in the combination of price, performance that I am looking at.

carlisimo

The Elantra GT is great once you install the Tiburon's rear sway bar. So add a couple hundred dollars to the price. Nice interior, too. I think the Spectra5 will be better than the current Elantra though, if only because it's newer.

Haven't driven a Focus or Matrix, but I did drive the Matrix's twin, the Pontiac Vibe, and it felt like a small SUV. Even if I had been driving a performance version, the height you're at doesn't inspire spirited cornering. No fun. No visibility over your shoulders, either.

I wish the Protege5 were still in production. The Mazda3 hatch is rather pricey.

billmchale

I agree about the Mazda3 hatch, by the time you get it optioned out you are getting mighty close to 20 thousand. If I were to go that high, I would be awfully tempted to go for the VW GTI-VR6 which would include traction control (Or of course I could go several thousand less and get the same thing with the Elantra GT but at the cost of the sweet Vr6 engine a 6 speed manual . This is made doubly true because VW is currently offering a $1000 loyalty rebate and I currently drive a Jetta. Still I would prefer not pay 20ish for my next car if I don't have too.

npaladin2000

Seems like pretty much every hatch in the US is mostly only available at the top of the model line. The Mazda3, Elantra, Spectra, even the late, lamented Protege5. That's the price you pay for deciding to get one, it's going to be more expensive than the sedan version.

If you're looking for a cheaper hatch, you're pretty much restricted to a Focus or Aveo. Although the Focus isn't too bad, being a distant cousin of the Mazda3.

Incidentally, the Spectra5 will probably be better than the ELantra GT hatch mostly because of the semi-wagon-hatch bodystyle...it'll lend extra structural stiffness to the car. Bets on who thinks the next Elantra hatch will look like that too?

billmchale

I agree about the Mazda3 hatch, by the time you get it optioned out you are getting mighty close to 20 thousand. If I were to go that high, I would be awfully tempted to go for the VW GTI-VR6 which would include traction control (Or of course I could go several thousand less and get the same thing with the Elantra GT but at the cost of the sweet Vr6 engine a 6 speed manual . This is made doubly true because VW is currently offering a $1000 loyalty rebate and I currently drive a Jetta. Still I would prefer not pay 20ish for my next car if I don't have too.

bikerpa

"mostly only available at the top of the model line."

Word on the street is that for '05 Hyundai has a GLS hatch available - essentially the same thing, but with cloth interior and a few other changes down from the current GT hatch.

Also, I do hafta admit that I got my '04 GT hatch last April for $12,850 incl. tax/title/etc and 100k b-to-b warranty extension... stickshift, no options, but I'd challenge anyone to find a comparably equipped anything, with half the warranty coverage, for two grand more.

smith20

"Word on the street is that for '05 Hyundai has a GLS hatch available - essentially the same thing, but with cloth interior and a few other changes down from the current GT hatch."

Really? I think that's a good move for Hyundai. That'll open them up more consumers who like/consider hatchbacks more for their utilitarian aspects.

billmchale

Ok, now on the Kia web site they have the new Spectra 5, in addition both Canadian Driver and Road and Track both have favorable reviews. Road and Track's biggest complaint is the familiar one about the clutch... buy hey every car has quirks.

bikerpa

All I see is
http://www.kia.com/spectra/hatchback.php
Which is from like a year ago. Or are you talking about the Kia Canadia website?
http://www.kia.ca/nameplate.asp?lang=en&plate=spectra5
There we go... that looks really slick, like they took a Mazda3 and Elantra hatch and mashed them together. 16" wheels, same engine as the Elantra, roof-mount antenna, 30/43mpg... wow. I really really like that.

billmchale

Try
http://www.kiaspectra5.com

There is a link to it on the kia web page.. have you tried reloading from scratch? You might be getting a page stored in your cache.

Regarding the Canadian site; be careful about the gas mileage; its in imperial gallons which are 4/5s the size of an American Gallon. Figure 24/34 or something like that.

rctennis3811

Did anyone else notice that Kia copied the "SX" moniker from Suzuki's Aerio??? I don't really care for this car...doesn't look as good as the MAZDA3 or Aerio IMO. They both offer a better design inside and out with more HP. Plus, the Aerio SX has automatic climate control, sportier chrome gauges, 6-disc in-dash CD player, subwoofer, and a better warranty. The MAZDA3 is just plain better overall.

nippononly

also costs more than Spectra5 is projected to.

I think the "SX" is becoming kind of generic these days with the huge increase in small crossovers available. SX = S-port X-over (sport crossover).

I think Spectra5's most direct competition is going to come from the Suzuki Reno, which by the way looks EXACTLY like a stretched Daewoo Lanos from five years ago to me. Did Italdesign design this car today for Suzuki, or in 1998 for Daewoo and it just didn't get used until now?

billmchale

Well obviously issues about which car looks best is all but entirely subjective. If you prefer the looks of the Aerio SX fine. That being said, I think the Spectra has somethings going for it that the Aerio can't or doesn't match. I don't consider the Mazda3 a direct competitor since getting one with anywhere near equal equipment is going to cost you thousands more than either the Suzuki or the Kia.

That being said, here are the areas I think the Kia has the Suzuki beat on.

1. 6 air bags: in this class of cars the Kia is definitely unique, not even its corporate sibling the Hyundai Elantra matches that.

2. Larger gas tank and longer driving range. For some people the extra 1.3 gallons in the Kia will mean an extra day between fill-ups.

3. No Sunroof available on the Suzuki. While some people don't like them, some do, and it is a shame that you can't get one on the Aerio.

4. 16" wheels on the Spectra, 15" on the Aerio. In part because of how tall the Aerio is, its wheels look even smaller. Admittedly this is mostly a question of looks, but I know of few people who actually prefer the smaller wheels.

The other thing that the Kia has going for it is that Kia/Hyundai is moving up market. In addition each of those brands seem to be finally developing some logic to the marketing of their brands. Suzuki is getting most of the former Daewoo products dumped on them which means they now have the Forenza/Reno competing with the one car they actually make and sell in America. It leads to a more muddled marketing category. The fact that the Forenza and Reno are arguably more attractive vehicles (If not as capable in terms of either power or handling) can't help the Aerio either.

muffin_man

Spectra vs. Aerio
Frnt, Driver - 4 vs. 4
Frnt, Pass - 4 vs. 3
Side, Driver - 4 vs. 5
Side, Pass - 3 vs. 4

1. I pulled these crash results of another website. Doesn't look like the Spectra's 6 airbags mean all that much. It has 1 less star overall.

2. Fair enough

3. True

4. For cars in this class, with relatively limited power, smaller wheels provide for better acceleration and fuel economy. They are also cheaper to upgrade, and the tires are cheaper to replace and/or upgrade.

Aerio advantages:
1. Better crash test
2. AWD available
3. More versatile tall-wagon config
4. 155hp (vs. 138hp)
5. 26/33mpg vs. 24/32mpg - Fuel efficiency is better on the Suzuki, cheaper ownership cost.

The Spectra is a much nicer car than the previous Sephia/Spectra (one of the worst cars ever), but it's not really a standout. And Kia still makes some of the least reliable cars on the road, while the Aerio is an actual Suzuki design (which bodes well for its dependability).

Kia has improved, but I still don't think that the Spectra is better in any way than the Aerio. I still think it is bottom of the heap in its class.

rctennis3811

While some of that is true, some of it is not. For one, the Aerio already is a "best pick" in IIHS frontal test scores. It also earned a 5-star rating in the NHSTA side-impact test without the side-impact airbags. The new side-impact airbags cover both the torso and head and rear passengers don't always need as much protection, though I think they should also have an airbag...so I agree partially with you there. Yes a sunroof is not available, but you can get one custom made from a dealer, but not everyone is willing to do that. The 16" rims on the Spectra don't even look that great, so I wouldn't trumpet that. Also, Suzuki has launched SWT (Suzuki Works Techno) which means you can order body kits, mufflers, wheels, decals, etc. from your Suzuki dealer starting this November...ala Scion. That includes the Aerio getting 16" and 17" wheels as accessories.

While Hyundai is moving upmarket, Kia is NOT. They will be left mainstream while Hyundai eventually shoots for a more upscale image. Sure, GMDAT is dumping a lot of cars on Suzuki, but Suzuki also has many new upcoming products by 2007, one of them including the next-generation Grand Vitara and an SUV based on GM's Theta architecture. One thing Kia does not have is GM's financial support...

nippononly

the fact that Hyundai is trying to move upmarket means that the Elantra hatches are doomed. They have only just introduced a GLS hatch for '05. Hatches are not generally viewed in America as "upscale".

Suzuki's own cars have proven over the years to be well put together, if cheap, and reliable. I am not sure how far I would trust any of the rebadged Daewoo crap though...
So give me an Aerio over a Reno/Forenza/Verona any day of the week.
Sidenote: too bad Suzuki has finally dropped the Vitara V-6. Tough little truck with cheap little price.

larsb

"Hyundai considered high quality by owners
Posted Oct 4, 2004, 2:09 PM ET by David Thomas"

"In a study sure to make the Korean automaker happy and most of us confused, an automotive consulting firm released a new study that reported Hyundai as the second highest ranked carmaker when it comes to best value. It placed behind only Lexus in the survey based on price, affordability, expected reliability and resale value. Somewhere Honda & Toyota (the brand) is looking around to see what went wrong. Oddly enough Toyota’s new youth effort, Scion, tied Mercedes-Benz at #3, while Toyota itself didn’t break the top ten. Honda eked out a sixth place finish. The rest of the list included Infiniti, Acura, Cadillac, BMW, Audi and Volvo."