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Jaguar X-Type

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  • lenscaplenscap Posts: 854
    The latest issue of Automotive News, an industry trade publication, has an article titled "Quality bugs bedevil X-Type."

    Note these are not my views (I have no experience with the car personally).

    The article quotes several owners who have experienced problems with their cars. Most say it's not only the problems that are bad, it's also the dealer and/or Jaguar itself not providing any assistance and follow-up.

    While I don't have a link, here's a quote lifted from the article:

    "Jaguar Cars Ltd. is at risk of alienating its newest group of owners, many of who complain their new X-Type sedans have an array of irritating quality snafus. While none of the problems directly affect safety or operation, they are of sufficient annoyance that some first-time Jaguar buyers say they're ready to bolt the franchise."

    The article says there are two separate drivetrain problems:

    1. A high-pitched noise during acceleration up to 70 mph. This problem is so widespread there has been a bulletin issued and a manufacturing change has taken place to correct the problem.

    2. A noise during cold-weather driving. This problem has not been acknowledged by Jaguar, and some owners have had prop-shafts replaced (some more than once, including one guy who is on his sixth).

    Some other quotes from the article:

    (An owner named Miller): "While he loves his X-Type, Miller is frustrated by his dealer's inability to repair the problems, despite three visits to the service bay."

    (An owner named Kennedy): "But the prop-shaft is only one of several problems Kennedy sites, including a rocking driver seat, weeping windshield washer nozzles, vibration from the tires above 45 mph, and an apparent knocking from the CV joints when turning. 'It seems to me that Jaguar doesn't know how to handle my problems, and it's taken them a long time to get this under control...'"

    "Many of the X-Type customers are buying their first luxury car and are bristling that a luxury carmaker can't solve the problem on its first attempt. None of the customers interviewed for this article said they had been contacted by a Jaguar representative. Said Moss: 'If you insult one customer, you lose 25 of his friends down at the country club. And Jaguar is still considered a risky purchase."
  • rea98drea98d Posts: 982
    Uh, after replaceing 2 or 3 driveshafts, it's apparant that's not the problem. That guy's mechanic is a complete and utter idiot for replacing 6 of those things, instead of trying to find where the problem is coming from. Not Jaguar's fault that the guy doesn't have the brain God gave a cowpattie. Maybe the guys boss, or some district manager should can the incompitent klutz, but its not the guys in Coventry's fault.

    Also, why is making a manufacturing change & issuing a TSB bad? Sounds to me like they're trying to fix the whining-at-70MPH problem.

    Remember, this is the first car in Jaguar's history with AWD and a sideways engine. A lot of engineering was done in-house by Jaguar, despite the Ford platform, so a learning curve is to be expected when heading out into uncharted waters. It's a chance the owners took buying a 1st year model, especially with a lot of technology the automaker had never tried before.
  • jagboyxkrjagboyxkr Posts: 53
    Wow! There are 2 whole problems on a few of the early, first-year, new technology X-TYPE models and Jaguar is trying to fixing them for their owners! Sounds like Jaguar is doing just fine, and they also have nearly the highest rates of customer satisfaction out of any manufacturer.

    I cannot help but feel as if any problems that Jaguar may have on any of its cars are looked upon more harshly than problems with other marques' cars because of the past reliability issues that Jaguar used to have. The bullet-proof Mercedes-Benz has more reliability problems with its cars now than Jaguar ever had, and Audi and BMW currently cannot even get their speedometers and odometers functioning properly.

    These are just very vocalized announcements about temporary problems with the X-TYPE, and after some of the initial problems on a few of the early production models are fixed, everyone will be very pleased with their cars. My only problem was the weeping windshield washer nozzles, and those were fixed in less than 15 minutes by having my dealer simply tighten two valves on the underside of the car's bonnet. After that, there have been no problems at all, and I still cannot get over how much I love this car.

    Every manufacturer has initial problems, especially on new models. Jaguar knows how to please its customers, and it still builds world-class cars.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,678
    It appears that the real problems and complaints are with the dealer and the dealer's inability/unwillingness to fix the problems. Every brand new model will have some teething pains but as long as the factory corrects the problems promptly and the dealers fix the problems and treat the customers well then it's ok. Going back to the dealer over and over for the same problem is extremely frustrating. This isn't unique to Jaguar and it seems to be a hit or miss thing - some dealers are great and others are terrible. It underscores how much power these dealerships have under the franchise laws. The mfrs are almost powerless to force improvements in service. When they try the dealers haul them to court and usually win.
  • mfprmfpr Posts: 41
    The problem was indeed with the design of the propshaft, as Jaguar refers to it, not the dealer who repeatedly replaced it. Jaguar has made at least 5 modifications to the design since the problem began to appear. The service departments ordered the latest parts, but consequently learned the problem continued. The final design reportedly has fixed the whining noise, which only occurs under specific temperature and speed conditions, so it has been difficult to verify that a proper fix was made. The issue with the whining noise will definitely reappear when the temperature drops and new owners who have bought their cars in warmer weather experience the effect of winter.
  • jagboyxkrjagboyxkr Posts: 53
    If there is a problem, then I have no doubt that Jaguar and its dealers will do everything to fix it. I have driven my X-TYPE in temperatures ranging from slightly below freezing to 98 degrees (F) at speeds everywhere from 0 to 90mph, and I have had none of the reported problems. When were the design changes made? If I got a car with the design changes, then I can say that they did a marvellous job with the fix, and if I did not, then I must say that any problems must be annoying enough to report, but are only found on a few cars - my own car not included as it has been perfect.
  • rea98drea98d Posts: 982
    So does every "propshaft" (on this side of the ocean, it's still called a driveshaft), on every X-Type made whine? Does anybody here have one that doesn't? It seems to me, that unless 100% of X-Types made have this problem, after six attempts, you'd get ahold of one that works. Also, if every X-Type did have this noise, would Jaguar have noticed it before shipping squillions of these things all over the world? Also, Englad was never known for it's tropical climate, so I'm sure the engineer got plenty of cold-weather testing in on the X-Type, before and after release. After six times, I'd question the competence of any mechanic who kept replacing the same thing without fixing anything, as well as any engineer who kept redesigning the same thing without fixing anything. Maybe they should poke around and see if maybe something other than the driveshaft is causing the noise.
  • jagboyxkrjagboyxkr Posts: 53
    "So does every "propshaft" (on this side of the ocean, it's still called a driveshaft), on every X-Type made whine?"

    Answer: NO!

    "Does anybody here have one that doesn't?"

    Yes, I think that many people have X-TYPEs that are working perfectly, and then there are a few that happen to have this very annoying problem. My X-TYPE is in perfect working order with not even a rattle, as many of the cars are. It is a superb car regardless of a few that have problems in their first model year, and it happens to be publicized more because it is a Jaguar, and Jaguar's first new compact entry-level sedan in a long time.

    I did some research into the problems that plague some X-TYPEs, and I found that it is a very few number of cars that actually have the driveshaft or whining in cold weather problems. Also, if you have one that has none of those problems, then your car most likely will not develop the problems either - very good news.
  • rea98drea98d Posts: 982
    In that case, since so many seem to be working fine, I stand by my first post. After 6 driveshaft replacements and still no cure, if that were the problem, the would have gotten a good one by now. Any mechanic who uses the brain between his ears rather than the one that plugs into the car's computer would start looking to see if just maybe something else might be causing it. Every car maker is going to produce a few cars that rattle, whine, squeal, buzz, hum, sing, or make racket more than the rest of that particular model. That's what warranties are for. But the way to fix it is to find the whine and replace that part, not just replace part X because part X was bad on someone else's car, and then keep replaceing part X until the owner gets fed up with the dealer and swears off that brand forever. It's a classic case of a lazy service department who, since they keep sending the bill to the manufacturer each time, aren't motivated enough to find the problem and fix it, because *gasp* that would require them to do some actual work!
  • jagboyxkrjagboyxkr Posts: 53
    Well, I do understand that it would be terribly annoying and upsetting to have a car that doesn't work properly, and I am sorry for those people who have problems, but I must say that I do not think that Jaguar is having many more problems with any of their models than any other manufacturer. Because they were once tainted with the reputation of being problematic in the past, Jaguar is still suffering and trying to get past that image. Although in actuality they are as or more reliable than other cars today, they still must make that their reputation, and any flaws along the way do not help them.

    That is why any little problems with Jaguars are scrutinized, where as larger problems on other manufacturers' cars (like the speedometers that do not function properly on BMW's) are overlooked. How many of you knew that the newly introduced, $87,165 Maserati Spyder has a recall because it requires "modifications to their power steering hoses to avoid the possibility of engine fires, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) said". That sounds much more serious than annoying sounds or vibrations.

    Jaguar is doing great and has nothing to worry about if it can keep its few problems out of the vocal media the way other manufacturers do. All it needs is the reputation of being reliable - the cars themselves already are.
  • skobolaskobola Posts: 207
    Well, I believe that Jaguars are not more scrutinized than any other better brand, especially the BMW (or MB). Believe me, Bimmers get their bad apples criticized to the n-th... However, it seems to me that they are not that many to criticize, including my last two ones, 1999 323i and 2002 325i. I agree with you that by having a high/luxury/better-brand car opens it to criticizing for even things that are "normal" for other cars, but well, this is because we paid more money for these 4 wheels. Also, if you want to feel a little bit better, maybe you should go to the Mercedes Benz web sites, there are a lot of (new) owners crying about the lack of quality and unfulfilled expectations... Good thing is that all these cars come with free warranties and maintenance programs, so we should just bring cars to the service and let them play with them. I consider myself lucky for not having any of such problems, though...
  • jagboyxkrjagboyxkr Posts: 53
    Your opening statement: "...I believe that Jaguars are not more scrutinized than any other better brand, especially the BMW (or MB)" indicates that you already have a bias towards BMW since you think it is a "better brand" than Jaguar, and you are acting as if I was attacking BMW with my statement about their inaccurate speedometers. This was not what I was doing or my intention, as I was simply using it as an example of how every marque has problems, but the ones Jaguar has have entire articles written about them, where as other marque's troubles go virtually unnoticed, even if they are more dangerous to the people in the cars.

    And how would reading about the problems that many Mercedes-Benz drivers are having make me "feel a little bit better"? My post above already said that "I do understand that it would be terribly annoying and upsetting to have a car that doesn't work properly, and I am sorry for those people who have problems". Why would knowing that people are upset cause satisfaction for me? Does it for you? Are you that kind of person?

    I don't have any "unfulfilled expectations" of my new X-TYPE, and I never said that more expensive marques get criticized more than lesser ones either. My car has been working perfectly, and I am glad to hear that your car has been the same for you. Also like you about BMW, I feel that there is not much to criticize about Jaguar, as every one that we have had has been great, and I have found that they are still some of the best world-class cars around. That was the entire point of my last few posts, but it must have been written in too complex a form if you got nothing from it.
  • desertguydesertguy Posts: 730
    The biggest criticism of BMW which I have heard repeatedly over the years is the high cost of maintenance. Friends with BMWs will validate this. I hope the XType is not in the same boat. Mine will be under warranty and free maintenance for the life of the lease so I may never know unless I decide to buy it. So far, over 5K in five months and NO problems.
  • jagboyxkrjagboyxkr Posts: 53
    Nice to hear from you again, desertguy! I've still had NO problems either. Maybe it's the Carnival Red... :-)

    How are your seats looking? I clean mine all of the time to keep them looking brand-new, and I was wondering how someone else with Ivory was doing. Someone posted that Jaguar's leather cleaner has worked best for them with Ivory, so I'll check on that next time I'm at the dealer. What do you use? Our Ivory interior S-TYPE has a slight belt stain on the seat, and nothing else has taken it out yet. I'm thinking of seat covers for my X as a last resort if I get any stains.
  • lenscaplenscap Posts: 854
    "...but I must say that I do not think that Jaguar is having many more problems with any of their models than any other manufacturer."

    This is not true, especially compared to the Japanese cars.

    If you take a look at J.D. Power's latest study in 2002 initial vehicle quality (released yesterday) you'll see there's not a Jaguar to be found at the top of any list.

    Lots and lots of Japanese products. And the plant that produces the best cars in the world is located in Japan.

    That's not to say that somebody does not prefer a Jaguar to own. There is a lot of emotion that goes into car buying that is not based on facts.
  • jagboyxkrjagboyxkr Posts: 53
    I never said that I did not think that Jaguar has no problems, but I did say that I do not believe that they are having any more problems than the majority of other manufacturers, and that although they are not the most reliable cars, they also are no worse than most anyone else.

    How is your Toyota engine sluge, anyway?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,678
    Initial quality only covers the first 90 days. Long term reliability is more important. If you check the 2001 long term reliability report which counts problems after 4-5 years, you'll see that Jaguar is #3 just behind Lexus and Infiniti and just ahead of #4 Lincoln. Would you rather have 90 days of quality or 5 years? See for yourself.


    http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/01102afull.gif

  • desertguydesertguy Posts: 730
    Yeah, has to be the carnival red. I just purchased Lexol cleaner and conditioner(separate bottles) I've used Lexol in the past with good results. You do put me to shame though as I have not cleaned my seats yet and they do need it. I have some beautiful sheepskins from other cars I've had but there are two problems. The head restraints do not come of and require an upholstery shops help and then there are the side airbags that would be covered up. I think with proper maintenance the naked leather is probably the way to go.
  • jagboyxkrjagboyxkr Posts: 53
    Yeah, I agree with you about the leather. Overall, it is probably the best way to go. I hadn't considered the side airbags until you mentioned them. I just don't want the seats to age before their time. I parked next to a bright red (Phoenix) XKR convertible, and the tan seats inside the car were in horrible condition. The natural texture lines in the leather were so dirty that they were totally black. On Ivory, that would look even worse.

    Thanks for the Lexol information. I'll go check it out.
  • keyrowkeyrow Posts: 214
    As the owner of a detailing business I recommend everyone check out Leatherique, we have found their products provide the best cleaning and replenishment of vital oils of any product currently available. The Rejuvinator Oil also does not produce a slippery surface, as do some other products, so you will not be sliding all over after treating your seats. Lexol is good, but Leatherique is better!


    http://www.leatherique.com/Default.htm

  • jagboyxkrjagboyxkr Posts: 53
    Thanks for the information. I'll add Leatherique to my list of care products to look at.
  • lenscaplenscap Posts: 854
    I was mearly pointing out a fact: the X-Type, as a brand new model, is having more initial problems than many other new luxury cars. More than the Lexus ES 300 or SC 430. More than the Infiniti G35 or Q45. More than the Acura RSX or MDX.

    I also said that, of course, there is more to buying a car than just reliability. There is a lot of emotion involved. People buy cars for a host of reasons.

    As for the engine sludge, I've had no problem whatsoever. And if a day comes when there is a problem, I am confident Lexus would take care of the problem. Unlike your beloved Jaguar, which according to the previously posted article (a trade article for dealers no less, not a consumer article) has annoyed many customers by not responding to their problems.

    No car is perfect, or made for everybody. You need to listen to the criticism people have of the X-Type as well as the positives instead of getting so defensive.
  • desertguydesertguy Posts: 730
    One does wonder why you feel it necessary to get on the Jag. BB and post unflattering articles about the X Type when you admittedly "have no experience with the car whatsoever." And are not in the market for one as far as I can tell. Maybe you are trying to validate your choice of the Lexus? The ES300 is not comparable to the X.
  • lenscaplenscap Posts: 854
    Since I have access to automotive articles most people don't, I post lots of articles (good and bad).

    There are people reading these forums searching for information that do not know a lot about cars. By posting articles these people can learn more before buying a car. That's why many people go to Edmunds - for new info.

    Despite what you may think, I have nothing against the X-Type. I believe the more competitors the better.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    The Town Hall is about to take on a new look in an effort to make content more easily searchable and accessible.

    Have you seen the Letter from the Town Hall Manager on the Town Hall Welcome page? If not, you might want to follow that link to have a look.

    And hang on to your seats. Change is never easy - for any of us - but resolving the Search problems we've had will be worth the pain.

    Pat
    Sedans Host
  • jonty12jonty12 Posts: 101
    there are already 14 tsbs out on the 2002 es300. most are minor issues, much like the x-type issues. the notion that the es300 has less though is absurd. there are 6 tsbs for the x-type. the tsbs for the x-type cover everything people have complained about except the washer nozzle issue, with that there are 7 problems. still half that of the es300, and i'm not counting issues that lexus doesn't have an official tsb out for.


    if you doubt me, go to http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov and check for yourself. the difference is the way the manufacturer deals with the problems. where jaguar customers have to pull teeth to get jaguar to fix something, lexus does it many times before the customer even recognizes a problem exists. it's a matter of customer service, and yes, lexus does a better job than jaguar in that respect.


    as for problems with the cars though, the x-type does not have more than the average first year model, and in fact has half the problems the 02 es300 has.

  • lenscaplenscap Posts: 854
    Thanks for that piece of info.

    I was going by initial quality as reported by JD Power. According to that study, only the Thunderbird had fewer initial problems than the ES 300 in the entry-luxury class. I guess if something is wrong and taken care of before I notice I don't care about it.

    I appreciate the response.
  • jonty12jonty12 Posts: 101
    the only people who seem to like jd power surveys are those who end up near the top. the problem is that they are completely based on customer reported problems, not actually on problems. many lexus owners don't know they have it as good as they do, because lexus fixes the problems so quickly. they sometimes also seem to overlook minor issues that owners of other brands would report, simply becuase lexus has treated them so well.

    as a side note, i looked at the 02 camry numbers, there are already more than 20 tsbs.

    lenscap, i appreciate you taking the time to look at the data.
  • jagboyxkrjagboyxkr Posts: 53
    "As for the engine sludge, I've had no problem whatsoever. And if a day comes when there is a problem, I am confident Lexus would take care of the problem. Unlike your beloved Jaguar, which according to the previously posted article (a trade article for dealers no less, not a consumer article) has annoyed many customers by not responding to their problems."

    If you would like, I could post the many articles that I have found both for consumers and dealers about the Toyota/Lexus "oil gelling" (as they call it) problem. It took a colossal amount of unhappy and annoyed Toyota/Lexus owners to finally get Toyota/Lexus to even admit that there was a flaw in the design of their engines, a problem which dates back to 1997! So for five years, Toyota/Lexus said that it was the car owners' fault for having engines that sludged! Yeah, you are right, they give great service, if you can call that service. I'm glad they have your confidence.

    Jaguar may have a few initial problems related to unwanted sounds on a few of the brand new, new-technology X-TYPEs, but they have engines that function properly and they do not blame their problems on their customers. I have had NO problems whatsoever with my Jaguar X-TYPE, and I have full confidence that Jaguar will work out the problems in all of the few cars that have them. I even found some articles where some surveyed X-TYPE owners who actually had problems came back for a follow-up response after Jaguar responded to them, and they had nothing but praise for the service they recieved and thier cars.

    As for your remark about service from Jaguar, I have had nothing but good experiences with my dealer and the Jaguar company itself. I also must say out of experience from ownership that Jaguar makes some of the finest cars the world has to offer. Since you have no experience with any of these aspects, you have no basis to make any valid statements about Jaguar's service, ownership experience, how they treat their customers, or even the cars themselves.

    You would not have come here and posted unflattering articles about the X-TYPE had you not had, "nothing against the X-Type". In your message addressed to desertguy, you make the statement that you "believe the more competitors, the better". This establishes that you believe that the Jaguar X-TYPE and your stylistically challenged Lexus ES300 are competators with one another on the market. Then, in that same post, you state, "There are people reading these forums searching for information that do not know a lot about cars. By posting articles, these people can learn more before buying a car". This establishes that you are trying to educate the unknowlegeable public with the information that you post on these boards. By posting only unflattering information about a car that you consider a major competator to the car you are trying to promote, you are attempting to make it appear to the "people who do not know a lot about cars" as if that competator is horribly unfit for them, and as a car in general. Your true intentions seem to be to try and sell the ES300 to the public over the X-TYPE, not make a fair and unbiast observation about any car.
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