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A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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Comments

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited May 2016
    Then they show you some of the empty quarts they leave lying around for picky customers. :D
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    carboy21 said:

    Most dealers have the 55 gallon drums for refilling oil . They fill all the cars with the same 5wX30 oil ., unless you specify them a particular specs for foreign brands like MB/AUDI/BMW.

    The vast majority service the cars correctly. It's to the consumers advantage to know exactly what should be done so they can sort out what is right and what is not. The easiest way to see if a shop, quick-lube or dealer needs greater scrutiny is when you see some one advertise sub $30 prices for "a basic oil change". The whole approach of trying to sell a "good, better, best" service is a clear indication that the management isn't paying full attention to the demands of today's cars.



  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    It's kind of hard for consumers to know that their techs are doing anything right, especially when it's a normal scheduled service job. You can't go stand over the tech's shoulders "for insurance purposes" and you can't really tell if they are using the right oils, the right torques, or even doing the work in the first place. And it's not a consumer's place to care about the service details - people have enough on their plates without having to be amateur auto mechanics too.

    That's not the fault of consumers - that's the fault of the service industry.
  • cmhj2000cmhj2000 Member Posts: 381
    stever said:

    It's kind of hard for consumers to know that their techs are doing anything right, especially when it's a normal scheduled service job. You can't go stand over the tech's shoulders "for insurance purposes" and you can't really tell if they are using the right oils, the right torques, or even doing the work in the first place. And it's not a consumer's place to care about the service details - people have enough on their plates without having to be amateur auto mechanics too.

    That's not the fault of consumers - that's the fault of the service industry.

    Well said
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited May 2016
    This discussion was supplemented with comments split from: 10k oil changes??. We were getting way off-topic over there. Carry on!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I always double check with my mechanic(s) about which oil they are using in my car, as well as the brand of brake pads, wiper blades, etc. I feel that this type of dialogue averts misunderstandings.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    stever said:

    And it's not a consumer's place to care about the service details - people have enough on their plates without having to be amateur auto mechanics too.

    That's the attitude that the whole mess starts from, it absolutely is the vehicle owners responsibility to know what is right and what is wrong for their car. That's where consumerism has left them high and dry, by coddling them and telling them that it isn't their concern.
    stever said:


    That's not the fault of consumers - that's the fault of the service industry.

    There are no innocent parties, everyone who has taken any part in the blame game deserves their own share of the blame. So yes, the service "trade" deserves blame, so do consumers, consumer advocates, self appointed consumer experts and on and on.

    Even now, consumer advocates who don't have the stomach to take the low ball oil change pricing advertising head on and expose it for what it is today deserve more of the blame than anyone else. They have been handed the details on a silver platter but don't have the conviction to do anything with them. They have presented themselves as the consumer's guardians, where are they now? By not talking about what is wrong with that marketing approach, they as much as anoint it as being correct and in the consumers favor.
    stever said:


    It's kind of hard for consumers to know that their techs are doing anything right, especially when it's a normal scheduled service job. You can't go stand over the tech's shoulders "for insurance purposes" and you can't really tell if they are using the right oils, the right torques, or even doing the work in the first place.

    It's even harder for them when the people who portray themselves as knowledgeable not only don't know themselves but continue to harp on outdated stereotypes and especially attempt to rely on silver bullet answers in an attempt to demonstrate capability and competence. Which BTW, here is where every claim that a gas cap replacement solves an evaporative emissions system failure has led this consumer.
    http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/41266/chevrolet/impala/fuel-evap-nightmares#latest

    Here we are in 2016 and the "experts" here haven't addressed their own mistakes from 2011-2013.
    http://www.edmunds.com/car-care/do-i-have-to-use-the-manufacturers-oil.html
    http://www.edmunds.com/car-care/stop-changing-your-oil.html

    Meanwhile as the technology keeps advancing this thread is just a glimpse of what is waiting for everyone in the very near future. http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/41143/honda/civic/hypersensitive-crash-alerts-2016-honda-civic-long-term-road-test#latest

    We shouldn't need to talk about extended service intervals today. There should not have been a second guessing of the dealer in that oil change thread because they were right. It got worse when the anecdotal advise of that questionable North American product was praised as a reasonable choice. There is no excuse for not knowing the difference between that and the requirements of that VW and not recognizing how such advise does more to confuse the consumer than it does to help them.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    >it absolutely is the vehicle owners responsibility to know what is right and what is wrong for their car.

    Seriously? And they should know what BP meds to take and how to tell that their house foundation is sinking? Sheesh.

    Guess what - no one enjoys taking their car to the shop in the first place and no one trusts what the shop tells them, figuring that the "tech" behind the counter is upselling them stuff they don't need.

    Oils - pretty easy choice:



    Oh look, there's some Super High Mileage, that sounds good. Oooh, Extended Performance...wait, maybe the Peak or Platinum would be better. Blue Flame comes in a pretty bottle. Ah, Racing Plus should be good stuff. But I'm cheap, best get the Advanced Fuel Economy stuff.

    But no, it's all about engineering, not marketing. :p

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    What, you didn't know that the new PC-11 oil category might split the HTHS viscosity ratings? Maybe someone on the Walmart staff can help you with this :p
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    edited May 2016
    It is easy, or at least it would be if the advice was accurate. Take GM vehicles for instance, all someone needs to do is choose from any of the bottles on that shelf that have the correct SAE viscosity and....

    THIS LABEL



    BTW, Ford owners? They should look for that dexos license too. The same goes for most Chrysler owners, Toyota owners, Honda and more. But you wouldn't know that by the above linked article
    http://www.edmunds.com/car-care/do-i-have-to-use-the-manufacturers-oil.html which contains the following quote.

    "Potential warranty problems: The language in some owner's manuals suggests that using an oil other than the one specified by the manufacturer will void the car's warranty. This is not the case, says Thom Smith, Valvoline's vice president of branded lubricant technology.

    According to the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act, the onus would be on GM or another automaker to prove that a non-manufacturer oil damaged the engine. If dealers deny the warranty claim without first investigating it, they are in violation of the act, Smith says.

    Consumers just need to make sure that any alternate oil they use is comparable in quality to the automaker's specified oil. Many oil manufacturers, including Valvoline, are so confident of their product that they offer their own warranty against engine damage that their products might be alleged to have caused.


    Even Valvoline has gone back against their own statements in that article,
    http://www.centerforqa.com/dexos-brand1/ with fourteen different products under dexos licensing.

    BTW, that VW? The dexos license also is the first thing to look at and you know the product in that bottle doesn't meet the VW specs.

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    carboy21 said:

    stever said:

    Go EV. :)

    Don't buy VW in USA if it is going to need all those EU specified oils :p
    Seriously?

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    carboy21 said:

    stever said:

    Huh? Just how many people do you think research what fluids their car needs? Most don't even crack open their owner's manual, much less ask for info online. I guess that means you agree that when it comes to getting service on your car, owners should "trust, but verify" instead of simply depending on the shop to know what they are doing.

    /dead horse beat

    I have bought a few new cars over last 20 years but to be honest never opened the owners manual :p
    They just lie in their binders in the dash, still looking like new after 10 years :D
    Ignorance about your vehicle's servicing requirements is NOT bliss; remind me to never buy a car from you.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312


    That's the attitude that the whole mess starts from, it absolutely is the vehicle owners responsibility to know what is right and what is wrong for their car. That's where consumerism has left them high and dry, by coddling them and telling them that it isn't their concern.

    I agree 100%; selecting the right oil is FAR from rocket science. If you lack the mental acuity to open your owners manual and determine the proper oil I would suggest you consider using public transit.
    As an aside, I'm streamlining my oil inventory; now that Mobil 1 0W-40 no longer has Longlife LL-01 certification I'm switching my ti and X3 over to the same BMW(Shell) 5W-30 oil that my newer 2 and 3 get. I also like that the BMW oil comes in liter rather than quart bottles.
    All this means that I only have to stock 3 different oils- the previously mentioned BMW oil, Mobil 1 10W-30 for the Jeep and the Briggs & Stratton and Kawasaki motors in the ZTR mowers, and Castrol RS Racing 4T 10W-40 for the bike.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • guitarzanguitarzan Member Posts: 873
    edited June 2016
    For highly technical people who spend their lives around cars to assume that it is common sense for people to thoroughly get to know their cars fluid specifications? That notion has human nature going completely against it. At least with the rapid engine changes today. I agree that most people to some degree neglect their cars, and most are very ignorant about them and rely solely on mechanics. But with all of the standards today, this notion of selecting from a large number of standards for each brand and model of car is worse than it has every been, and society never changes overnight.

    For the longest time the only concern for most car owners was to use the recommended weight, to avoid a "bad" brand, and make a religious choice of pure petrol or synthetic. However, consider that people seldom buy a car, and oil certifications come once a decade or so. So there may be a new oil standard when one buys their car. What average lawyer, accountant, or systems analyst even thinks about this? I plead with you guys to be realistic here.

    This would be a great item to add to high school. You know the place where people graduate but still cannot read, do math, balance their checkbook, or change a tire? Huh! Have we identified the real problem here?

    That said, Cardoc blames consumerism. Heck, if I can pay an expensive mechanic to select my oil, why shouldn't I? That might be why someone works hard as a chef, to pay the mechanic to take care of the car. When I come home from my job I am downright beat. Every, single, day. When people today work harder and under more stress than ever before, and have 10,000 other items about their house and car that "they should know", this notion of yours really has everything going against it. If that sounds stupid so be it. It is reality.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    guitarzan said:

    For highly technical people who spend their lives around cars to assume that it is common sense for people to thoroughly get to know their cars fluid specifications? That notion has human nature going completely against it.

    It's a good thing that people don't take the same approach to general aviation as the average consumer does towards their car.
    guitarzan said:

    At least with the rapid engine changes today. I agree that most people to some degree neglect their cars, and most are very ignorant about them and rely solely on mechanics. But with all of the standards today, this notion of selecting from a large number of standards for each brand and model of car is worse than it has every been,

    Which is one of the reasons behind GM's approved licensing program for their dexos specification. All someone has to do is look for the proper viscosity and that green logo right on the front of the bottle and they have the right product no matter what brand it is.

    Consumerism isn't just about what consumers do, its also about what media has coached them to do. There was (and in some cases still is) a lot of false and misleading information directed towards the consumer. If we are to take it that most really don't care then why would there be so much effort put into bad information?
    guitarzan said:

    That said, Cardoc blames consumerism. Heck, if I can pay an expensive mechanic to select my oil, why shouldn't I?

    I took this from one of the other threads.
    http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/34542/gmc/acadia/2008-gmc-acadia-problems#latest

    A TV reporter is looking for a family with a car in need of repairs, but is holding off because the estimates (preferably $1,000 or more) are too high and/or they can’t afford to pay for the repairs at this time. The reporter will work with Edmunds to evaluate the estimate and help the family find ways to bring down the cost of the repairs. If you'd like to participate, please reach out to pr@edmunds.com by no later than Friday, May 29, 2015.

    I could come up with hundreds of examples, but this is an aspect of consumerism that leads to hurting both the consumer and the shop/technician in the long run. These "articles" about selling stories, and getting ratings with no regard for the long term consequences.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2016

    It's a good thing that people don't take the same approach to general aviation as the average consumer does towards their car.

    The last time I flew in a private plane we almost didn't go because the plane had a flat. I had a can of Fix-a-Flat in my car and the pilot used that to pump up the tire. It all went swimmingly until we hit a patch of rotten shore ice landing on a frozen river in April and the wheels crunched through to their axles as we idled toward one bank. Some ATVers got us back on solid ice and we got home okay.

    Another friend forgot to double-check the tanks a few years ago and just assumed that the (company) plane had been gassed up. He made a perfect landing on a rural four lane right by a rest area. I missed that one. :)

    Oh yeah, the second friend? He's an A&P mechanic....

    Back in the early 80s, yet another A&P mechanic friend loaded up his pickup with some boxes he didn't want to get wet. The passenger's side view was blocked and he managed to get hit by a train. He and the boxes survived. :D

    And you thought tailgaters with lousy brakes pulling trailers on the Interstate were bad....
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited June 2016
    The only difference is that in Alaska, if your A&P mechanic screwed up your plane and you managed to survive, you went back to his shop and shot him.

    This motivates parties on both sides to higher levels of excellence.

    Biggest cause of flying accidents in small planes? I'd guess....running out of gas or not turning around when hitting bad weather.

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    What was John Denver's excuse? Switched to a tank that had no ghastly in it. After he used all the ghastly up in his good tank.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741

    What was John Denver's excuse?

    The way it was explained to me was that he was in an experimental and was unfamiliar with the fuel tank control valve and its location.

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    stever said:


    The last time I flew in a private plane we almost didn't go because the plane had a flat.

    Must have hit one of those air nails.
    stever said:


    I had a can of Fix-a-Flat in my car and the pilot used that to pump up the tire.

    That's real interesting, GA usually uses tubed tires.
    stever said:


    Another friend forgot to double-check the tanks a few years ago and just assumed that the (company) plane had been gassed up. He made a perfect landing on a rural four lane right by a rest area. I missed that one. :)

    Oh yeah, the second friend? He's an A&P mechanic....

    Maybe was? The FAA is pretty unforgiving for mistakes like that. Even a successful forced landing can cost someone their license. Unsuccessful ones take care of themselves.


  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    The way it was explained to me was that he was in an experimental and was unfamiliar with the fuel tank control valve and its location.


    Either one ends up poorly.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741


    Biggest cause of flying accidents in small planes? I'd guess....running out of gas or not turning around when hitting bad weather.

    VFR into IMC is one of the most dangerous situations a pilot can encounter, especially when the clouds have rocks in them.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Lot of rocks in the clouds in Alaska....which is why so many flatlanders get into trouble flying there for the first time.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454

    Maybe was? The FAA is pretty unforgiving for mistakes like that. Even a successful forced landing can cost someone their license. Unsuccessful ones take care of themselves.

    The second friend did lose his job but not his A&P cert. He builds "STOL" type bush planes. I'd still fly with him, but not the first guy - I'm really particular about who I'd fly with now.

    I think I've lost more friends to small plane crashes (two) than car wrecks (one).

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The best bush pilots are definitely not "hot doggers".
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2016
    I had the pleasure of one flight each with Lowell Thomas Jr. and Cliff Hudson out of Talkeetna. Cliff was one of the best - when his plane needed scheduled maintenance, he'd fly it down to Anchorage and sleep next to the plane in the hanger and watch the mechanic do everything.

    Car techs hide behind the "for insurance purposes" sign. :p
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    stever said:

    Car techs hide behind the "for insurance purposes" sign. :p

    Not funny, not funny at all. I was working through lunch one day doing an in tank fuel pump on a Chevrolet Blazer. Just as I was lifting the sending unit clear of the tank when I heard some guy ask me if he could borrow a wrench because his car had tossed a belt. I looked up and he was standing on the other side of the fuel tank from me, smoking a cigarette.

    The tank was still on the transmission jack so it was about chest height, I ducked under the tank, came up on the other side, lifted and forced him backwards about twenty feet.

    He didn't get to borrow any tools.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    edited June 2016

    The best bush pilots are definitely not "hot doggers".

    You never forget your first soft field landing when you have learned on regular runways. The same goes for getting into a tail dragger, it really changes the finer points.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    stever said:

    I had the pleasure of one flight each with Lowell Thomas Jr. and Cliff Hudson out of Talkeetna. Cliff was one of the best - when his plane needed scheduled maintenance, he'd fly it down to Anchorage and sleep next to the plane in the hanger and watch the mechanic do everything.

    Car techs hide behind the "for insurance purposes" sign. :p

    I know Cliff! Great guy, very good pilot indeed. I'd fly anywhere with him.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454

    stever said:

    Car techs hide behind the "for insurance purposes" sign. :p

    Not funny, not funny at all. I was working through lunch one day doing an in tank fuel pump on a Chevrolet Blazer. Just as I was lifting the sending unit clear of the tank when I heard some guy ask me if he could borrow a wrench because his car had tossed a belt. I looked up and he was standing on the other side of the fuel tank from me, smoking a cigarette.

    The tank was still on the transmission jack so it was about chest height, I ducked under the tank, came up on the other side, lifted and forced him backwards about twenty feet.

    He didn't get to borrow any tools.
    Some of us are careful not to "sneak up" on anyone working on stuff like that, or using able saws and the like. But some windows between the customer lounge and the shop would be nice.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    edited June 2016
    stever said:

    Some of us are careful not to "sneak up" on anyone working on stuff like that, or using able saws and the like. But some windows between the customer lounge and the shop would be nice.

    Do you wear a sign so that we can tell you apart from the others who don't know how to pay attention to their surroundings?

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    No, we're the ones standing at the counter, having come in through the man door, not wandering around the shop via the garage doors.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I skim a lot of dealer service reviews here. 99.9% of owners have nothing but positive things to say about their service writers and techs.

    Occasionally you'll run across one like this, where the shop wanted to sell the owner a $12,000 tank of diesel. :)
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    It's been pretty interesting watching them work through the pull/lead condition on the Jeep. http://www.edmunds.com/jeep/renegade/2015/long-term-road-test/2015-jeep-renegade-trailhawk-steering-mischief-managed.html
    This was a basic failure that a qualified tech would have addressed with ease, and basically made it a non-event. But without that technician it turned into an odyssey. Imagine what a difficult issue is going to look like if they try to deal with it.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Looks like they finally took your advice and swapped the wheels.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Its going to be really interesting when more people have to deal with dynamic suspension systems, and ride controls like Mercedes "Magic Body Control".
  • guitarzanguitarzan Member Posts: 873
    Visited the mechanic to get wife's car. The AC condenser has a hole from a rock. Great business this installing condensers in perpetuity, rather than designing them with any sort of protection. But I digress.

    The mechanic, let's call him Ralph, is the owner. He is down to a skeleton crew of two. He even fired his own brother. The reason? No one wants to learn. They all want to do the simplest of tasks then go home. Ralph has sent employees to training. They go to the course, figure it is a vacation, and do not learn a thing. They all whine about money, they want raises, but will not do a thing to earn it. Ralph has interviewed students coming out of school and sees the identical attitude in them.

    Ralph now works from early morning until 1 or 2 AM every workday. I cannot imagine turning cars around in one day like he does, and handling the entire business. He is an amazing professional.

    Is it just this town? In IT I am unable to pass on my knowledge. No one wants the knowledge, no one wants the responsibility, no one wants to take over my job even though I made it clear I will be moving along sometime.

    This seems like the diametric opposite of what you gents have detailed regarding the dealer environment.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Take a closer look at "Ralph". He sounds like a business owner who is working in his business instead of on it. When does Ralph go to training? What is his labor rate and average gross profit on the parts he sells? What is his CODB? (Cost of doing business) Why is he working so many hours instead of having a life out of the shop? Does he have to work that many hours just to make the ends meet because his prices are too low?

    In this trade its common to hear someone say, "The more you know, the less you make". There are many shop owners who don't charge for some of the work that the techs have to do correctly and so in turn they don't pay their people correctly to do that work. That effectively punishes them for trying to learn the more difficult jobs. Most pay plans reward the techs for only doing the easiest work and have little to no incentive built into them to reward taking on greater challenges. The old adage work smarter not harder is on full display because it isn't smart to take on harder work and end up making less at the end of the day.

    It would be real interesting to get the opposing views from Ralphs former employee's as he just might fit the moniker of ESO. "Evil Shop Owner" from his former employee's perspectives.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    stever said:

    Looks like they finally took your advice and swapped the wheels.

    Did you see the response that tried to suggest that they brilliantly solved this dilemma and exceeded the capabilities of the shops/techs who serviced it?

  • guitarzanguitarzan Member Posts: 873

    Take a closer look at "Ralph". He sounds like a business owner who is working in his business instead of on it. When does Ralph go to training? What is his labor rate and average gross profit on the parts he sells? What is his CODB? (Cost of doing business) Why is he working so many hours instead of having a life out of the shop? Does he have to work that many hours just to make the ends meet because his prices are too low?

    Maybe this helps you piece together some of the financials.

    I initially changed to Ralph by recommendation when the dealer wanted $3000 for a job - Hrm it is fading in my mind so I can only remember part of it: brakes including 4 caliper replacement, water pump, maybe hatch lifts. However, Ralph charged me $1600 for the same job.

    I can quote the job we just had done: $340 for 2004 Mazda 3, test AC with dye, replace leaky condenser, charge and test.

    A business contact (not sure how they knew this) stated that Ralph is one of the largest automotive parts buyers in the region.

    For my motorcycle valve adjustment he quoted 11.5 hours. I needed the cost LOL so I asked about the rate and he quoted $90. I wouldn't know if that is his rate for cars/everything or higher for the bike??? Maybe you can figure this from the above info.
  • guitarzanguitarzan Member Posts: 873
    guitarzan said:

    Take a closer look at "Ralph". He sounds like a business owner who is working in his business instead of on it. When does Ralph go to training? What is his labor rate and average gross profit on the parts he sells? What is his CODB? (Cost of doing business) Why is he working so many hours instead of having a life out of the shop? Does he have to work that many hours just to make the ends meet because his prices are too low?

    Maybe this helps you piece together some of the financials.

    At "some point", I don't know what year, Ralph lost $50,000 to a dealer that stiffed him on his services. I am guessing that event is prior to 2010 when I joined him. He could be making up for that.

    I initially changed to Ralph by recommendation when the dealer wanted $3000 for a job - Hrm it is fading in my mind so I can only remember part of it: brakes including 4 caliper replacement, water pump, maybe hatch lifts. However, Ralph charged me $1600 for the same job.

    I can quote the job we just had done: $340 for 2004 Mazda 3, test AC with dye, replace leaky condenser, charge and test.

    A business contact (not sure how they knew this) stated that Ralph is one of the largest automotive parts buyers in the region.

    For my motorcycle valve adjustment he quoted 11.5 hours. I needed the cost LOL so I asked about the rate and he quoted $90. I wouldn't know if that is his rate for cars/everything or higher for the bike??? Maybe you can figure this from the above info.
  • guitarzanguitarzan Member Posts: 873
    guitarzan said:

    guitarzan said:

    Take a closer look at "Ralph". He sounds like a business owner who is working in his business instead of on it. When does Ralph go to training? What is his labor rate and average gross profit on the parts he sells? What is his CODB? (Cost of doing business) Why is he working so many hours instead of having a life out of the shop? Does he have to work that many hours just to make the ends meet because his prices are too low?

    Maybe this helps you piece together some of the financials.

    At "some point", I don't know what year, Ralph lost $50,000 to a dealer that stiffed him on his services. I am guessing that event is prior to 2010 when I joined him. He could be making up for that with his extra hours.

    I initially changed to Ralph by recommendation when the dealer wanted $3000 for a job - Hrm it is fading in my mind so I can only remember part of it: brakes including 4 caliper replacement, water pump, maybe hatch lifts. However, Ralph charged me $1600 for the same job.

    I can quote the job we just had done: $340 for 2004 Mazda 3, test AC with dye, replace leaky condenser, charge and test.

    A business contact (not sure how they knew this) stated that Ralph is one of the largest automotive parts buyers in the region.

    For my motorcycle valve adjustment he quoted 11.5 hours. I needed the cost LOL so I asked about the rate and he quoted $90. I wouldn't know if that is his rate for cars/everything or higher for the bike??? Maybe you can figure this from the above info.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    If you're self employed, say, a consultant, $90 an hour barely pays your gas getting to a jobsite.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2016
    @gagrice's tale of expensive ball joints over in the Tesla thread ties in with this shop review today.

    Makes me glad I don't live in a state with mandatory inspections.

    How is a typical consumer supposed to deal with shenanigans like this? Most people don't have time to drive around and get second opinions, especially if their car is in for a problem, and not just an inspection.
  • guitarzanguitarzan Member Posts: 873
    edited June 2016
    stever said:

    Makes me glad I don't live in a state with mandatory inspections.

    I have definite mixed feelings. On one hand most government mandates are boondoggles. The initial emissions inspections, that we had to pay for, for every car including brand new cars, was the biggest payoff and jobs program in modern history.

    On the other hand, living in the city, with drug users and other irresponsible people all around me, their cars missing mufflers (which pushers tend ride past the house at 2 AM), and cars with barely working brakes, etc., a mandated inspection would probably do a great deal of good here, even save lives.
  • guitarzanguitarzan Member Posts: 873
    edited June 2016
    How do I delete posts? This system replicated my posts when I simply edited them.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    stever said:

    @gagrice's tale of expensive ball joints over in the Tesla thread ties in with this shop review today.

    Makes me glad I don't live in a state with mandatory inspections.

    How is a typical consumer supposed to deal with shenanigans like this? Most people don't have time to drive around and get second opinions, especially if their car is in for a problem, and not just an inspection.

    All they have to do is call 724-742-9500.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    stever said:

    @gagrice's tale of expensive ball joints over in the Tesla thread ties in with this shop review today.

    Makes me glad I don't live in a state with mandatory inspections.

    In some ways I don't feel bad at all for people who have some of these problems. Many of the dealers do "free" state inspections for as long as the purchaser owns the car. I have said it many times, free is over priced because nothing is ever really free, someone is paying for it somewhere. Its the techs who are trying to earn a living servicing vehicles who are the ones that are actually paying for that customers inspection (by not being paid correctly to perform it). They have to sell work not only to subsidize that expense but to protect their jobs which means the stage is set for things to start going sideways when the going gets rough. The flat rate pay plan when managed poorly creates a constant atmosphere of punishment and reward that leads to abuses just like the above. "IF" the details provided are in fact genuine, then the tech is wrong and should be removed from the trade. However, if the blame ultimately doesn't get placed where it really belongs which is on the management, then the only thing that really results is that one person is gone as an employee and the business then goes in search of its next victim employee.

    As far as how defenseless that person who wrote that complaint is, they always have the option of a second opinion. If the other shops found nothing wrong and would have passed the car as is, not to mention he/she trusts them more then why did they go to the dealer in the first place? Too cheap to support the honest tech? If that's the case then I don't have any sympathy for them. It would serve them right if the honest shop called it a career and left them no option but the dealer.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2016

    The flat rate pay plan when managed poorly creates a constant atmosphere of punishment and reward that leads to abuses just like the above. "IF" the details provided are in fact genuine, then the tech is wrong and should be removed from the trade. However, if the blame ultimately doesn't get placed where it really belongs which is on the management, then the only thing that really results is that one person is gone as an employee and the business then goes in search of its next victim employee.

    As far as how defenseless that person who wrote that complaint is, they always have the option of a second opinion.

    I think a lot of the problem is that your whole industry is built on a lie.

    The Truth About Flat Rate Car Repairs (autorepair.about.com)

    Second opinions are great - there's nothing like nursing a barely running or marginally safe car across town to get another $100 diagnosis from another shop. Most towing claims only cover one tow to the nearest garage, so if you really are broken down, the bill adds up fast if you try to shop around.


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