A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

busiris

Y'all can put whatever you want on YOUR car, I'm okay with that.

Please just don't tailgate me if you elect to go for the $29.95 brake job special...

jipster

So based on a specialized skill set what should the starting pay be? In the $8-$12 range?

Probably the $12-$15 range.

jipster

I wouldn't allow them to touch my vehicle beyond the most basic repair

Yeah, me too. When it comes to the basic services though... why pay the difference if you can't tell the difference?

the CEL and Oil lights illuminate on his dashboard 15 minutes after he departs the quickie lube and brake shop, because the "technician" neglected to tighten the drain plug, he can rest in the knowledge that the few $'s

The Quickie Lubes don't have a monopoly on bone-headed techs. I've read just as many, if not more, horror stories from people who had basic work done at a dealership.

My point here folks, is that it is wrong to generalize and lump all of these low priced discount shops in the same barrel. They can be just as good, or bad, as the independent shop or dealership. Parts wise... debatable. Many non oem parts are just as good. You got a clunker you're only gonna keep a couple more years, why put on $100 pads?

busiris

The Quickie Lubes don't have a monopoly on bone-headed techs. I've read just as many, if not more, horror stories from people who had basic work done at a dealership.

My point here folks, is that it is wrong to generalize and lump all of these low priced discount shops in the same barrel. They can be just as good, or bad, as the independent shop or dealership. Parts wise... debatable. Many non oem parts are just as good. You got a clunker you're only gonna keep a couple more years, why put on $100 pads?

I don't think you're getting any disagreement on those points.

However, chances are you'll get a higher level of service from a dealership or professional repair shop than a quickie lube/brake shop.

Bottom line: know the competence level of the shop before allowing them to service your car.

When it comes to the basic services though... why pay the difference if you can't tell the difference?

Well, that's the $64,000 question, isn't it? Just because one can't see the difference doesn't imply there is no difference, as the video link a few postings back clearly demonstrated in regards to brake pads. Same goes for labor...

imidazol97

>cheap parts are cheap parts...there's little left to opinion here...either the $10 brake pads are just as good as the $150 brake pad or they aren't.

Parts is parts. I don't use cheaply made parts. But I felt that he was demagoguing the mass market stores, which might not necessarily do jobs for cheap, but might use cheap parts. E.g., the talker commented about brake rotors made in China. My Raybestos High Technology powder coated hub brake rotors sitting in the garage are made in, FANFARE, China. So what's cheap parts? I think I got the last Made in USA brake rotors at John's Auto Parts a few years back for my rears. He found two boxes on his shelf of a store name supposedly made by Raybestos that were marked "Made in USA." They're still on the rear.

Are there any rotors NOT made in China?

Guy almost sounded like he was campaigning for office in the way he went about things.

jipster

cheap parts are cheap parts and even Doc could not make a good brake job out of that stuff.

The dude in the youtube video is probably tired of losing business to the BrakeWays of the world. :P

Lots of good inexpensive non-OEM parts out there. Lots of cheap parts too. But, I don't think people are crashing and burning because a brake shop put a pair of cheap brake pads on their car. A lot of these brake places offer lifetime pads. For small fee they will add on lifetime labor.

jipster

You guys talk like none of the independent shops exhibit the very same behavior

Finally a voice of reason! :P

jipster

either the $10 brake pads are just as good as the $150 brake pad or they aren't.

The question isn't, "are they just as good?" ... the question is," Do they get the job done?" To a lot of people on a budget, the answer is yes.

We know you can afford those expensive $150 brake pads on that big Edmunds salary you draw shifty, but for a lot of blue collar working stiffs out there, the $10 pads do just fine. :shades:

Mr_Shiftright

" You got a clunker you're only gonna keep a couple more years, why put on $100 pads?"

Answer: Because they are your BRAKES. :P

"good enough" is....well....good enough.

Is a Kia Rio "good enough"? Yeah.

Is it a Porsche 911? No.

You take a Kia Rio on a high speed run into the Alps and you'll die.

jipster

However, chances are you'll get a higher level of service from a dealership or professional repair shop than a quickie lube/brake shop.

Bottom line: know the competence level of the shop before allowing them to service your car.

I think it's been about ten years since I paid over $30 for a oil change at a dealership. Dealership oil changes are usually much lower than the Jiffy Lube places in my area. My Mazda dealership ran everyday $19.99 oil changes for 4 or 5 years. Currently Kia runs their oil changes at $24.99, and Hyundai $29.99. So the only thing a Valvoline Instant Oil Change or Jiffy Lube can offer with their $38 dollar oil changes, is a quick 20 minute oil change... if no one is in line that is.

When I had brakes done at the Maza dealership, it was like $40 or $50 just to turn one rotor. I almost had them skip turnig the rotors as they were smooth with no pitting of grooves. The service tech highly recommended it, so I had it done.

So a Quickie Lube... I wouldn't have any concerns getting an oil change there. Though why, as I pay less at a dealership. A Brakeway type of place, I would want a better quality pad. I'm sure they would be more than happy to put one on for me... for a little bit more green.

stever

Finally a voice of reason!

I should have added dealers too, but someone bailed me out by saying the chain stores "can be just as good, or bad, as the independent shop or dealership."

Oh yeah, that was you. :shades: Thanks.

Remember Tireguy? He knew almost as much about tires as Capriracer. And he worked at Walmart before joining the Marines.

Mr_Shiftright

Well that's damning with faint praise now isn't it?

"Oops, sorry you hit that tree, you must have had your brakes done at one of the BAD shops...didn't you ask them if they were a bad chain store or a good chain store before you let them do that $99 brake job?"

stever

People do like to tar others with broad brush strokes that may not withstand scrutiny.

Mr_Shiftright

You play the odds. That's why we call things CALCULATED risks.

What are the odds that a $500 brake job done by Doc is going to last longer and perform better than a $99 job from BrakeWorld?

Or: is there more risk in driving a car with a $99 brake job than a $500 brake job from Doc's shop?

My point is this: You CAN'T do as good a job for $99---it is impossible because the parts MUST be inferior....this is irregardless of the competency of the technician.

If you want to say "Well....for $99 I got my money's worth and my car, in fact, DOES seem to stop okay"......well I can't argue with that. Fair enough.

jipster

You play the odds. That's why we call things CALCULATED risks.

So do you play the odds by buying the most expensive tires, oil, wiper blades, rotors etc etc? If not you are taking a greater risk. :sick:

My point is this: You CAN'T do as good a job for $99---it is impossible because the parts MUST be inferior....this is Irregardless of the competency of the technician

I don't think anybody ever said that the parts were as good. Just that they do the job and in a safe manner. You're making it sound like anybody that takes their car to a discount brake or lower end car shop is taking their life in their hands. "500 dollar brake job or bust!" Broad generalizations are generally unfair, inappropriate... and actionable in a court of law. :P

stever

You CAN'T do as good a job for $99

Well, you have to define "brake job". I didn't do the most recent brake jobs on the Outback or Quest, but I did the fronts on both in the last decade myself (Napa Ceramix on the van in '06 for $54). Did the fronts on the Outback in '07 for $55; didn't note the brand. So I don't think it's a stretch to be able to get a shop to do that for $99.

Now, the most recent brake job on the Outback was all 4 corners with a fluid flush and included new rotors and the bill was around $450.

Odds are that Jiffy's and Firestones do okay work, otherwise you'd see a lot more cars broken down on the interstate like the episode described recently. But in 60 years, I've never known anyone in meatspace who lost their engine due to a botched oil change (I did know someone who lost a tire due to a botched tire rotation).

Jiffy Lube alone does 24 million oil changes a year. Where's the carnage?

Mr_Shiftright

I have no idea what other people expect of their brakes, and really, I don't care what they put on their car--that is entirely their business.

And if a triple Big Mac is someone's idea of a good lunch, i'm not going to wave my grilled ahi tuna sandwich in their face. Hey, it's your stomach and heart, not mine.

All I'm saying is that there is no way, ever, under any circumstances, that I'm going to have a $99 brake job, parts and labor, done on my car, unless it means blowing off the brake dust with an air hose.

I believe my First Amendment rights allow me to say that with being an actionable offense. :P

As for oil changes, there is no way, ever, that I'm going to bring my car to a quickie oil change place, because oil changes on my car are not intuitive and there are 5 ways to Sunday to mess it up.

Again, even if you want to put oatmeal in your engine, and have it done by kindergartners, that's your business.

There is also no way I'm going to put tires on my car that some chain store paid $19 apiece for, nor will I let them attack my custom set of $2000 wheels with their air guns.

My rule of thumb is that I spend no more, nor no LESS, than I have to, to operate my particular car at top efficiency.

this is the old "paint job argument"

Yes you can paint a car for $800, but you get what you pay for. From 25 feet away at 30 mph, it looks pretty good.

crkyolfrt

cheap parts are cheap parts...there's little left to opinion here...either the $10 brake pads are just as good as the $150 brake pad or they aren't

There's more to it than that though, Shiftright. One example is the content of the pad material. In Cda it is not legal to sell pads with any asbestos in them any longer. Probably in the US too I think. Makes sense..asbestos is nasty, and I doubt few would argue that. But in terms of making a great, grippy pad that was easy on rotors, it was terrific. So other materials have replaced it. Compromises made. Let's call them 'soft' pads. Soft pads are usually less money than metallic pads. They are usually easier on rotors, but only until a point. If your regular habit is to drive fast and scruff off big speed in the fast lane often, then probably you are far better off with metallic pads. Metallic pads wear down the rotors faster, but also are a lot grippier. The soft ones in my above example, tend to overheat the rotor which can cause premature warping, even though they don't actually wear them down thinner. But metallic will wear the rotors faster, but usually result in faster grippier stops with better feedback (ABS less inclined to trigger over stutter bumps). The metallic pads though throw a lot of 'dust' which is actually the heated binding material melting the metallic particles into the painted/plastic coated rims. There could be electro-binding going on here too? I do not know that part but am interested in that theory contributing to dust that just doesn't want to come off.

Then there is ceramic. Sure they cost more, but with ceramic, your driving habit has the greatest impact on whether you would ever realize their benefit, and even to some degree, they may not be as good as metallic. The reason for this is that ceramic work best when they are super-heated. This is why they are used for racing. If your usual habit is driving quite defensively, anticipating traffic slowdowns and yellow lights, and don't regularly drive the limit + 20 or 30, then again, the ceramic are likely not going to work as well for you.

My opinions are derived from my experience with racing on two-wheels. I can only assume that the same theories would apply to four in car use.

Oh ya...rotors. I do believe there is quite a difference in quality/price points. Cheap ones come thick enough to meet specs, but nowhere do they guarantee the level of stainless steel content (more $) for example. Then there is the quest to save basic weight in modern cars to improve fuel mileage, and furthermore..unsprung weight with more performance oriented rides. This means they want a rotor as thin and light as they can make it, but still have at least some longevity potential and warp resistance (thicker is heavier, but resists fade temps which causes warpage). If you hold a cheap rotor in one hand and an expensive one in the other, I think even non-tech types could probably guess the cheaper one.

edit- forgot to mention..about cheap pads..often cheaper pads really don't have the exact coverage as OEM. This saves them money and no one is gonna notice right? Well the lesser pad material may save them some money, but it also means there is less pad material touching the rotor creating friction. This means that what is there, is more prone to suffering fade cuz of always creating more heat during stops. = more (extra hot) dust so harder still to remove..etc and also more heat means rotors more prone to warpage. If someone decides to not buy OEM pads and rotors in the interest of saving $, they really need to educate themselves as to what matters and why for their driving habit. Most would not even think that buying non-OEM could affect even how their ABS is calibrated..

I have learned a lot of this old school...(the hard way)..

YMMV..

kyfdx

Did someone pull this number out of the air?

Because, the cheapest advertised around here is at CarX.. $189... (plus extras.. doubt anyone gets out for that..)..

For $189, you can do a brake job.... but, not for $99...

Mr_Shiftright

$99 BRAKES

I'm a hard driver, I can't skimp on brakes.

As for advising other people, I can't really go down to the chain store, examine the pads they use, read the technician's credentials, watch him work, or inspect the vehicle to see what it *really* needs in terms of brakes....I have no choice but to apply logic and common sense instead....I wave my 85 year old uncle away from chain stores because i really don't think a $99 or $189 brake job is going to stop that aircraft carrier he drives around at 60 mph....well, it'll stop it..eventually....

But the neighbor's rust-bucket of a Nissan pickup that he uses to do a gardening job now and then, putting around the area at 35 mph?---might be okay to throw some cheap pads on it to keep the rotors from scoring worse than they are already scored. He's broke. He can't get a 4-wheel brake overhaul at Doc's shop. He can't afford it.

If I were "god" (which I'm not even though I act like that :P ) I'd have such vehicles off the road in many cases. His truck looks like a death trap when I see the ratty tires, rusted tail pipe, broken windshield, etc.

busiris

If someone decides to not buy OEM pads and rotors in the interest of saving $, they really need to educate themselves as to what matters and why for their driving habit.

I wonder exactly what percentage of the car-owning public is willing to do that, or even hold 2 different brake rotors in each hand to compare the weight of each rotor...

I'm guessing less than 1%...

For the other 99%, "parts is parts". The only difference they know is "new or used".

jipster

All I'm saying is that there is no way, ever, under any circumstances, that I'm going to have a $99 brake job, parts and labor, done on my car

Nobody said or implied you should.

As for oil changes, there is no way, ever, that I'm going to bring my car to a quickie oil change place,

Nobody said or implied you should

There is also no way I'm going to put tires on my car that some chain store paid $19 apiece for, nor will I let them attack my custom set of $2000 wheels with their air guns.

Nobody said or implied you should.

My rule of thumb is that I spend no more, nor no LESS, than I have to, to operate my particular car at top efficiency

Good for you. That's what many people who go to Brakeworld or Jiffy Lube do too.... spend no more or less than they have to. Many can't afford the $500-$1,000 pads and rotors you would put on your high end car.

But I do think it low class to insult the discount brake and oil industry, the people that patronise them, and the people that work there. And to state partronage at these establishments puts one life(or engine) in danger is ridiculous. Where's the carnage as steve would say?

With the BrakeWay's, no one is arguing they are as good as your $150 pads. Jiffy Lube, Walmart and Valvoline Instant Oil use the same oils dealerships, and our grand poohbah cardoc uses (Pennzoil and Valvoline) which is a far cry from the Quaker Oatmeal you would insist they use. :sick:

jipster

Did someone pull this number out of the air?

I think shifty did. Brakeway in Louisville use to offer a 4 wheel $99 brake job. (pads, turn rotors, labor).

A couple of years ago they raised their prices to $149 I believe. Just had one of their commercials on t.v a few seconds ago. :P

In looking at their website, their Ultimte Package goes $249 and has a 75,000 mile warranty. Bet cardoc can't offer a warranty like that. :surprise:

jipster

Heres how they can do it:

WE KNOW BRAKES! Here at Brakeway, we perform 1000's of quality brake jobs per month for LESS money than any other brake store in town! People ask us, "How can you repair and service brakes for so little?"... well its simple. All we do are brakes! We buy our quality brake parts directly from the manufacturer and pass the savings on directly to our customers! In addition, our mechanics are extremely knowledgeable and have decades of experience in servicing brakes. This increases efficiency and turn around time so we can service many, many vehicles! Here at Brakeway, we promise that you will save time and money while getting the highest quality Brake Service possible.

Yeah hear that shifty? They use actual mechanics and not preschoolers. :P

So that brake pad you pay $150 for, they are able to get for $10. :P

Mr_Shiftright

I'd respectfully disagree...they don't spend as much as they *should*, but they spend as much as they *have*....that would be, I think, a more fair statement.

busiris

WE KNOW BRAKES! Here at Brakeway, we perform 1000's of quality brake jobs per month for LESS money than any other brake store in town! People ask us, "How can you repair and service brakes for so little?"... well its simple. All we do are brakes! We buy our quality brake parts directly from the manufacturer and pass the savings on directly to our customers! In addition, our mechanics are extremely knowledgeable and have decades of experience in servicing brakes. This increases efficiency and turn around time so we can service many, many vehicles! Here at Brakeway, we promise that you will save time and money while getting the highest quality Brake Service possible.

In the advertising industry, that is called "puffing".

No specifics, but it sounds good.

For example... What manufacturer (OEM is implied)?

Or, what professional training do the mechanics actually have, other than OTJ? What, if any certifications?

I'm not saying they don't do good work, but that blurb hardly gives anyone with any expertise or experience much of a comfort level.

xwesx

$99... .with a $30 mail-in rebate! That $30 makes all the difference, and we all know that 75% of folks aren't going to mail it in..... :P

Mr_Shiftright

If you break that down (no pun intended), all it really seems to say is that they work faster because they do it so often. And so, by doing your brakes as fast as they can, they save you money.

that's not terribly re-assuring. :P

Since these brake jobs are all booked as flat rate, what is the actual motivation for a mechanic working as fast as he can, other than being fired if he doesn't?

HEY, I found an advertisement for brakes that even beat the $99 ones!

World's Best Brake Job--$69

Mr_Shiftright

How 'bout $59 Brakes?



Okay, what's my point in posting these?

It's this: At what point do even you bargain hunters get uncomfortable?

explorerx4

$59 doesn't include parts. Still kind of 'sketchy'.

Mr_Shiftright

I know...I really liked that microscopic note at the bottom

"+ parts"

Okay, I found a "real" $59 brake job:

$59 Front Pads Replaced

stickguy

well, that is probably the absolutely most basic job, on a normal car. IOW, something that any moderately competent person that can read and use a wrench can do if they have jackstands.

the brakes on a few cars are probably something your average 10 YO can handle. If all you are doing is replacing pads.

so, someone that is a good shadetree (say, you, Qbrozen) with access to a lift and an impact gun can probably do the pads on an Accord in what, 15 minutes? So figure a guy that does it all day, has everything laid out right there on the bench, how much of a routine it can be. Even popping the rotors to run them on the lathe (or do most places do it on the car now?) is quick.

pop everything off, smooth the rotor, do a quick clean and grease, new pads in, and button it all up. That is what you get for your $99 per axle, right? In what, 1/2 an hour, so the guy is grossing $200/hour, less parts (pads are what, $10 set for basic OEM level? ). Heck, I checked Rock Auto, and they have 3 pages of pads, good brands, for 10-$20 (premium ceramics)

if you are doing enough volume, that does not seem crazy. and of course, the extras pad the profit margin (replacement rotors, fluid change at $79, etc.)

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, but still...it's your brakes...I mean, be honest now...if I jacked up your car, slammed in some pads in 15 minutes, would you really pile your wife and baby in there with a cheery wave?

stickguy

well, sure, if I was confident that you knew what you were doing. I also watch!

there are plenty of people here that tell me I am a slacker for not doing it myself. Or having Jmonroe over to do it. So a guy that has experience and the right equipment, not that worried.

and if it wasn't done right, you usually know pretty quickly.

Mr_Shiftright

so yeah, you'd check up on me, in other words.

Did I spec the rotors?

Is the brake fluid a gummy mess?

Are the calipers leaking?

Brake lines rusted?

Rear brakes any good?

that's a lot to do in 15 minutes!

stickguy

well, 15 minutes I assumed was a bit of hyprerbole, but within the normal time for a basic job, sure. that is pretty quick visual/tactile checks.

and of course, where the real profit is. How many people do you think actually get out of there for the basic $99 price? It is all about the upsell baby!

Mr_Shiftright

This is where the independent shop can compete with the chain stores' low-ball prices...with personalized service. People will pay more if they think they're getting more (up to a point, of course).

roadburner

In the case of my BMWs and Mazda, I have a good dealer AND a good indie shop that I can use. The Wrangler only sees an indie shop. It's such a simple vehicle that I've only used a Jeep dealer once(for an oil change- when I had a discount coupon). I do use a local tire store chain for some tire purchases and alignments. They are good and offer free rotations at 5000 miles.

roadburner

Our 2004 X3 was a one-owner CPO car; it had 16,500 miles on it when we took delivery. At 60,618 miles both axles needed new pads and rotors- the rears were completely worn while the front pads had maybe 1,000 miles left in them and the front rotors were worn below the minimum thickness. I had my BMW dealer perform the work, so OEM parts were used.

Here's what is odd: at 132,214 miles the rear pads were replaced(they were a few hundred miles from triggering the wear sensor) but the rotors were still good. The pads lasted almost 11,000 miles longer than the first set, while the rotors will last over twice as long as the original set.

As for the front pads/rotors, they didn't get replaced until 144,362 miles; the rotors were below the minimum thickness while the pads had at most 1,000 miles left on them. Still, they lasted over 23,000 miles longer than the originals.

I asked my service advisor how the driving habits of the first owner could have affected pad life to such an extreme degree and his response was, "If you had ridden with as many service customers as I have you wouldn't be asking that question; some of them are digital drivers: either 100% on the gas or 100% on the brake- others tap the brake as a response to every driving situation they encounter."

I don't doubt my service advisor, but I still think it is remarkable that an inept driver could have such an adverse impact on brake life. And before you ask, I'd say the X3 has spent less than 20% of its life on limited access highways.

busiris

I don't doubt my service advisor, but I still think it is remarkable that an inept driver could have such an adverse impact on brake life.

I don't. I've seen far too many brake "riders" in my 58+ years, as well as a few brake "stompers", who, as your SA described, are either all "on" or all "off" the brakes.

One guy I used to work with would practically throw the front seat passenger through the windshield each time he applied the brakes if he weren't buckled in with his seat belt. No one wanted to ride with this guy....

Mr_Shiftright

San Francisco taxis change the brakes every 6 weeks on average!

roadburner

I thought this story would be relevant to our recent discussion on oil; I've been thinking of picking up an Abarth so I've been monitoring one of the Fiat 500 forums. It turns out that the Abarth and the 500 Turbo spec a 5W-40 synthetic, while non-turbo 500s takes any SN 5W-30. An Abarth owner was worried that his dealer had used 5W-30 instead of the 5W-40 synthetic and posted his concerns. The following is one "expert" response:

It must be true.. Its on the internets...

Want answers??? Call an oil manufacturer. They HAVE all the facts. They will be more than happy to help a customer.

Most people that post stuff are reposters. I.. Myself have been an engine repair and builder for 30 years. I have been to seminars and shows to learn about oil and its differences between regular oil and synthetic. I also know the effects of oils and ethanol and methanol. (I am also the Crew chief for a NASA Spec E30 car and a Chumpcar, and a back up crew for a Porsche 993 NASA GT3 car.)
The only thing that makes an oil synthetic is that the amount of additives exceeds a certain percentage. Its still all oil.

Want to make your own synthetic oil?? Change your oil. First thing you put in, 1/2 qt of transmission fluid. Then top off with the motor oil of your choice. The amount of detergents and additives in the trans fluid will make the oil"synthetic" by the rules. Before you get all bothered.. This is what we did on cars back in the days of straight oils and engines with coking problems. One customer had Dodge trucks that they bought new and sold with 350,000 on them. (With the unopened factory engines)
I now only do this on turbo engines that aren't water cooled turbos. (Castrol GTX does a great job of keeping engines clean inside.)
Heck.. you can use vegetable oil if you can find a way to stabilize it. (You know.. by additives.. and you make a synthetic oil)
So... Fear not.. your car is going to be OK. Your turbo is safe. (I have experience in this stuff.)

Unbelievable...

Mr_Shiftright

The man is daft but he does bring up (unintentionally) an interesting question.

Does anyone actually believe that every Fiat Abarth engine that gets 5w-30 instead of 5w-40 is going to blow up before the owner gets home? Or ever for that matter?

Is a Fiat engine so narrowly engineered that this could possibly matter?

Jes' wondering.... :P

thecardoc3

Is a Fiat engine so narrowly engineered that this could possibly matter?


Yes

stever

Fiat500USA (not an official site) says "The engine equipping the 2012 Fiat 500 is jewel like."

I like the YouTube commenter - "just another part that will break down it cost a arm and a leg to fix."

Not to mention the added expense of the Rolex oil. :P

Mr_Shiftright

that tells me zilch about why it MUST have 40w instead of 30w oil however.

thecardoc3

The following is one "expert" response:

Unbelievable...

What's so unbelievable? That someone who clearly doesn't have a clue is so sure of himself? Having watched the "Brakes" posts over the last few days I couldn't decide if I should even bother putting a response up on this forum anymore. Everyone was so sure of themselves, they were all totally correct, right?

The facts are, I could rip most of the brakes responses to shreds because of how incorrect they are, but I find myself wondering why bother? Go look at the how to "Do a Set of Brakes" article here in Edmunds written by Dan Edmunds and Phillip Reed. What they wrote there doesn't describe "how to do brakes", what they described is known as a "Pad Slap" and those result in a better than a 70% comeback ratio in a shop environment. But anyone who reads that garbage as well as some of the recent posts here could take any of it as valid information. Especially when some of the perceptions that were voiced while commonly accepted, are totally false.

I have a quote. "Anyone can do brakes,,,,,,,, INCORRECTLY". I use it all of the time when I do a brakes class and that helps the students as the class moves forward and all of the incorrect habits that they learned from others that need changed get exposed. Then they are more open to accepting the routines that will allow them to efficiently deal with the challenges that the new technology in the cars creates. During the class one of the goals is to get them to realize how easy it is to get an "easy" job wrong.

We can add to my quote about brakes this one about fluids. "Anyone can choose an engine oil product that will fail to meet a vehicles specs today". Ron's article here in Edmunds failed to correctly inform the readers about that too. Shifty's uncertainty about exactly why a specific product is required is sufficient proof that more education is critical all the way across the board. Just like the brakes posts here, I can easily set the records straight but if real education doesn't take place to back me up, then I'd just be wasting more of my time.

thecardoc3

that tells me zilch about why it MUST have 40w instead of 30w oil however

So what kind of an effort are you willing to make to gain the training required to have the answer?

roadburner

Again, I don't see why using a manufacturer's oil spec is a big deal. I assume-correctly or not-that the manufacturer knows what oils are most suitable for their products. And in almost every case, oil that meets the manufacturer's spec is readily available. It may cost a bit more, but so what?

Mr_Shiftright

I don't need training Doc. I don't need an education. I just need a video that explains in two sentences why this electro/hydraulic system MUST have 5-40W oil.

I bet you don't even know. Aren't you curious?

Why slap me for being curious? :P