A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

crkyolfrt

I'm not saying that all chain stores are dishonest but a lot of them do some edgy things.

They weren't only just totally dishonest, they were stupid to boot. They were so used to knowing full well that knew they weren't even going to touch the filter...and even if they cared a bit about being found out...especially if the car seemed to run ok in the lot and the customer didn't mention any driveability problems to indicate any form of fuel starvation, that they didn't even look at the tank mounting points! That's foolishly brazen. There would be obvious signs it had been removed recently (they had to in order to mark a 4 on it).

So....stupid and crooked...that's one helluva combo..

Mr_Shiftright

I would treat this level of banditry no differently than a household robbery on the part of a prowler.

crkyolfrt

We're agreeing again, Shiftright..I think anyway..must be on a roll
So we're talkin' fairly sternly right..about treating the level of banditry? Here, we take that type of crime pretty seriously...although unfortunately we aren't allowed to kill 'em even if we catch them in the act..

I can't help but think if we had more capital punishment options for those caught in the act, it'd give up and comers a pause to think about their choice in profession. Of course it isn't simple because the buggers now employ/corrupt young kids to do the actual act, so quickly becomes a grey area...we can't go around killing kids..but we should be allowed to kill those who mess with them..

isellhondas

No difference at all.

I once had a shop suggest that I replace my valve cover gaskets that "were beginning to seep a bit"

When I got home I took a close look and, sure enough although they weren't "leaking" they were beginning to "seep" just a bit.

I got out my 1/4 inch ratchet, extension and swival socket and I gently snugged up the bolts a bit.

I kept that car another couple of years and never replaced the gaskets. It never dripped in our garage and I never smelled oil on the hot manifolds.

So...the question is..." did it really "need" new VC gaskets?

This was a quality shop and I suspect that had a different person worked on my car (1968 Mustang) that nothing would have been noted but, perhaps they would have.

Did I feel that they had tried to sell me unneeded work? Not really.

Some guys just think everything should be as the car left the factory!

crkyolfrt

I've done the same, but that isn't without its complications for the next owner. Let's say your slight torquing fix had run its course and the next owner decided, hey, I'll just torque the VC a little..that oughta buy me a bit of time...well depending on how much torque was applied by both guys, at some point it's gonna deform the VC, (especially if it is steel) then you start having sealing problems with the new gasket.

But a slight seep? I'd have done the same. If I sold privately, I'd let the guy know that maybe a re-torque in the future should be with the knowledge that they have already been snugged once already on the original gasket.

busiris

I dunno... Most IRA mutual fund investors lose 1/3 of their investment growth due to fees, while retaining 100 % of the risks. And, their investment counselors and fund managers are allowed by law to not be held as fiduciaries for the IRA owners. All federal law requires is that the investments "appear to be suitable" for that level investor.

Yet, if the same folks just deducted the very same money out of their accounts, it would be considered banditry.

So, it seems knowing exactly how to dot the i's and crossing the T's makes a considerable difference. Evidently, its not stealing if you have enough money to buy protection...

Mr_Shiftright

I think a string of "oops I charged you for the part but didn't install it" over the course of a few days of investigation would be a pretty slam-dunk case of fraud.

But yeah, on a one-time bogus charge, about the best you'd get is an apology and a refund.

Fraud is hard to prove legally.

busiris

Fraud is hard to prove legally.

And intentional fraud is even tougher. Unfortunately, that's the level of roof required to convict in many states.

It's why so many civil suits win where the preceding (if there even was one) criminal suits lose.

The level of proof required is lover in civil suits.

OJ Simpson can tell you all about that...

isellhondas

1/3rd of mutual fund investments go to fees???

Sorry, not even close.

busiris

Here's how 401k and retirement account mutual fund inverstors get dinged...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/business-economy-financial-crisis/retire- - ment-gamble/how-retirement-fees-cost-you/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/retirement-gamble/

So, you're correct, its really a much higher %. I was being conservative.

isellhondas

I just know my investment guy is a whole lot smarter than I am at investing and he has done quite well for me over the years.

I'll gladly pay him to do this and it is nowhere near a third.

No such thing as a free lunch.

busiris

Still, it would be worth watching the Frontline video. They have already created a full and detailed explanation, so I won't try to one-up them.

At a minimum, take aloof at the second link. It may take 2 minutes to watch, because its a bit like a slide show. It's a great synopsis of the issue.

You may find your guy is making much more off of you than you thought...

explorerx4

Are the trading fees built into the NAV of mutual funds or can they be charged when you transfer between funds?

thecardoc3

How long do you think it will take for Jiffy Lube to start spending money on TV adds again now that this story has run? That's an important question because it will be part of the routine where they will work to try and make some of their people be solely to blame for the thefts and deceptions while playing the company and its management as the innocent victims.

Its interesting to watch the social media at play now because this is an angle that few businesses have had much practice dealing with at this level. JL's facebook page is getting torn up, as it should be. Their own .com however makes no mention of this recent issue yet.

srs_49

The 1.23% expense ratio mention in that one link borders on usury. Just looked at a list of expense ratios for the Vanguard funds. Most of them seem to be less than 0.5%, almost 3 times better than that 1.23% number.

Most actively managed funds (as opposed to passively managed index funds) do worse than their representative benchmarks. Sure, you always hear about the investment star that consistently beats the market, but they are a decidedly minority.

srs_49

And thus here we see the dichotomy.

Shops like JL (and your own) are first and foremost in business to make a profit. They don't exist to be white knights, or to provide a service. They exist to make money, and the way they chose to that is to provide a service, which is repairing and maintaining vehicles.

Hence there's this natural tension between the shop wanting to make money (or more money), and the consumer, in the running of his household, wanting to keep his expenses to a minimum.

busiris

Are the trading fees built into the NAV of mutual funds or can they be charged when you transfer between funds?

This is only a guess, but it would seem to be necessary to include all expenses (that would include commissions, trading fees, compensation, etc.) in the NAV figures. You really need to speak with someone much more intimately involved with mutual funds than me to get the accurate details.

If you watched the video, you already know the financial industry has is own set of rules, so anything is possible...

Mr_Shiftright

True enough, but the "social contract" between the provider of services and the buyer of services becomes a non-existent one when the service is not even delivered. In other words, this particular instance in this particular JL isn't even "business" anymore, it's now a racket.

isellhondas

There is a huge difference between "wanting to make money" and downright theft and that is what that JL shop did to their customers.

I have no problem whatever when a shop finds things on my car that they think need attention or be replaced.

I just don't want to be upsold on unnecessary and unneeded repairs or worse yet be charged for repairs that aren't performed.

If a shop can't make a decent living being honest than they should close their doors!

srs_49

There is a huge difference between "wanting to make money" and downright theft and that is what that JL shop did to their customers.

I agree 100%. Charging to replace the fuel filter when no such work was done is theft.

But what about suggesting that a wiper blade that has only been on for a month or so is at the end of its life and needs to be replaced? What about transmission flushes?

Mr_Shiftright

I agree 100%. Charging to replace the fuel filter when no such work was done is theft.

You have to admit though, it's an interesting business model. :P

Maybe we could open up a chain of "Quickie Rob" stores.

roadburner

I have no problem whatever when a shop finds things on my car that they think need attention or be replaced.

I just don't want to be upsold on unnecessary and unneeded repairs or worse yet be charged for repairs that aren't performed.

That is one of the many reasons I patronize my BMW and Mazda dealers. I know of a few dealers that always seem to discover $1000 or more worth of "necessary repairs" every time a car is brought in for service- and I'm talking about cars that are well maintained- not neglected vehicles that never receive proper service...

srs_49

Yeah. And when you decline, they roll their eyes and say "well, its your decision, but if that was my wife's car...".

busiris

Yeah. And when you decline, they roll their eyes and say "well, its your decision, but if that was my wife's car...".

Just respond by saying "You know, I've been thinking quite a bit lately about trading up to a new model" and let them wonder if you're talking about your car or your wife.

thecardoc3

Hence there's this natural tension between the shop wanting to make money (or more money), and the consumer, in the running of his household, wanting to keep his expenses to a minimum

Does that justify either trying to rip the other off? There was a while that we encountered a number of scam artists who took advantage of us. "The Barber" story being just one of those examples. We run our business in such a manner as to always be the ones at risk for our customers and its hurt us quite a few times. But I still wouldn't do it any other way.

BTW, anyone who does take advantage of us never gets a second chance. We have to be honest and trustworthy for our customers, we expect no less in return.

thecardoc3

So who is going to tell the TV station that they got part of the oil change reccomendation they highlighted correct, the 2000 Lexus does call for conventional oil and not a synthetic but failed to alert other consumers about cars that do require manufacturer specific products that are synthetic?

This is the kind of half of the information that turns around and makes our lives more difficult for doing the job correctly. As you all know by now, many GM's require the dexos specification and we encounter new customers all of the time who don't know about it. RB will be quick to point out his Euro's require specific products, but the new video stops short of these facts because they only wanted to suggest that the shop is trying to scam the customer when they have to reccomend a product other than one of the conventional ones. Its easily ignorance on the TV stations part as they are going after JL guns a blazing and dont care about any collateral damage.
But that goes back to where I said shops like mine (techs like me) end up dealing with the fall-out from stories like this. Something that they got right with the newest video is the former employee helping point the finger at management, middle and upper management as the cause for the situation. They said there is more to report as yet, this is getting even more interesting every day.

busiris

So who is going to tell the TV station that they got part of the oil change reccomendation they highlighted correct, the 2000 Lexus does call for conventional oil and not a synthetic but failed to alert other consumers about cars that do require manufacturer specific products that are synthetic?

Would it make any difference if the station aired a 2 hour show on the subject?

I doubt it.

We live in a reality where people get their limited information in 15-30 second sound bites. They don't feel like they have the time, nor any real need to take the time, to understand ANY issue.

If citizens won't accept the need to understand decisions being made that have a 24/7 affect upon their lives, does anyone really think they are really all that concerned about knowing the specifics of their vehicles?

All the majority of owners want is for their car to look decent, crank when the key is turned/button pushed, and run ok enough to get them where they want to go.

Sorry to say, but that's the way it is....

srs_49

All the majority of owners want is for their car to look decent, crank when the key is turned/button pushed, and run ok enough to get them where they want to go

I would add " for the 3 to 5 years they own the vehicle until they trade it in on a new model"

busiris

Excellent point.

When I bought my current house back in 1996, I had a lawn sprinkler system installed. The fellow that did it now only services sprinkler systems, because he says everyone got into the installation business before the housing bust. These nguys would have their $$$ up front before any long-term systems problems arose, being long gone afterwards. He says all the competition drove the installation business profitability into the dirt, where it was impossible to do a quality installation and break even, much less make any profit.

I saw him today, and he continues to do repairs only, and he says he's doing better financially than he ever did during the time he installed systems. Much less equipment overhead and a lot of repeat business, due to poorly installed systems by inept installers being prevalent and because he does really good work, and guarantees it for a reasonable length of time.

He's also reached the point he can select his customers. He simply refuses to service the cranks that insist on nickel & dime repairs instead of proper repairs.

Doesn't that sound a bit familiar?

Mr_Shiftright

The manta of modern "journalism" is KISS.

Now the information industry is merely a corporation (one of only 6 who own everything media-wise) selling the current viewer (aka, "the eyeballs") to another corporation.

So, complicated information about oil chemistry is boring boring boring--point the camera at a car fire or a train wreck.

isellhondas

So, the older of our CRV's, the one I drive has picked up a hardly noticible "clunk" in the right front when I drive on bumpy roads.

Instead to taking it to the store where I worked, instead I decided to try a well known alignment shop a half hour from where we live.

I made an appointment a week ago and we set a time for 10:00 this morning.

Walked in ten minutes early. Shop was full of cars and the bay doors were open and a radio was playing. NOBODY WAS THERE! After waiting for a half hour, I left and so did another customer.

A parts delivery guy showed up with a part and he too got frustrated and left.

As I was gettin in my car to leave, a guy pulled in next to me and asked me if there was anyone working. When I said no, he said " they do this all of the time" and he too left!

??????

roadburner

Much less equipment overhead and a lot of repeat business, due to poorly installed systems by inept installers

It sounds like my experience with friends who have hire "Professional" home theater installers; the "Pros" use either substandard or inadequate electronics as well as cabling- and charge ridiculous prices for their haphazard work. graphicguy over in Smart Shopper has a raft of similar stories to tell...

busiris

Funny. I have a friend that paid some joker tons of $$$ to wire his basement great room for his electronics several years ago.

It required so many re-visits by the installers to get it right (at my friend's expense) that his wife calls it the "million dollar wall" to this day.

busiris

...I decided to try a well known alignment shop a half hour from where we live.

Now you know why the place is so well known...

isellhondas

It's the shop the Land Rover and Mercedes stores farm their alignments out to and so so most of the local independends that don't have an alignment rack.

fintail

Where is this located?

I had the fintail aligned and new tires installed at a local shop. On tire day, there was only one guy working there - one guy to answer the phones, handle paperwork, accept deliveries, check-in cars, and actually work on cars.

isellhondas

It's on 116th St. Just off Bel Red Rd.

I don't doubt they do good work but I have zero patience when my day is planned and nobody was there.

fintail

Bad management no doubt. There should always be a little staffing redundancy, the lost business without it could more than exceed the salary paid out - bad news spreads more than good.

The place I used was off 130th.

Speaking of shops, my old MB mechanic has re-opened, in a much larger facility. I am pretty happy - they aren't scared of the old car, rates are fair, and the place is honest.

isellhondas

It sounds like you picked a great shop!

A lot of shops are, indeed, scared of older cars and for good reason I suppose.

They are afraid of parts availibity or afraid that thyecould break something impossible to find etc. They don't want a stall tied up while parts are tracked down.

busiris

Amazing they would leave the place unattended.

Maybe they get enough business from the dealerships you mentioned to give them a confidence level in which the don't care for the individual customer anymore.

Go figure...

crkyolfrt

I wonder if this could be a strut bearing on its way out? I don't recall for sure, but I don't think you have many miles on that one, though...so maybe just a weak bearing from new? Does it still track nicely?

fintail

The fintail is old enough to where it is simple - no miles of malaise era vacuum lines and emissions junk, but the mechanical fuel injection scares some people, I think. And mechanical parts are not hard to get - MB still stocks most of it. The car is also in fairly good shape, so chances are, it won't be stuck long The shop only had 3 bays before - so I would drop the fintail off for 2-3 weeks and just leave it - which I didn't like as it would be outside. I think he has 6 or 7 now.

The car might be needing brakes soon, simple job. I should also have suspension bushings and engine mounts looked at, as the half century mark is pretty much here. I'd like to have the steering wheel refinished, too.

isellhondas

I've never heard of a strut bearing going bad on a Honda but anything is possible. Also struts and ball joints rarely go bad although some of the "chains" love selling struts.

It has less than 70,000 miles on it and the "clunk" is something a lot of people wouldn't even notice. It's never had an alignment either and the tires wear even. It tracks fine.

Still has the original brake pads and when they were checked about 7000 miles ago, they still had 1/2 of the pad material remaining.

Never have we held onto a car this long but it has been totally reliable!

Mr_Shiftright

Check the sway bar bushings.

Gee, in San Francisco that unattended shop would have been cleaned out in about an hour--they could have rented it as a storage locker that same day. :P

isellhondas

I'll do that although I've never seen any replaced on a Honda unless it was some old relic with 300,000 miles.

Oh yeah...a shop in the Mission District or how about East Oakland?

I was thinking the same thing as I stood there looking at huge toolboxes and shop equipment. The bay doors were in the back and were wide open.

There was even a Servicemaster box truck there they could have used!

Mr_Shiftright

When I ride my bicycle down there I have to nail everything down or take it with me. I even have my seat chained to my bike frame. One time they stole the $2 rusty bell off the bars, that I bought in a thrift store. They'll even take the bungee cords off the package rack, to say nothing of your front wheel.

So yeah, an unattended auto shop with the doors open? That'll be on the local communications network in 5 minutes. :P

isellhondas

Years ago, a buddy had his VW bug break down in Compton, CA.

He had to walk several blocks to find a phone booth so he could call a tow truck.

In the time took him to return, both his front seats and his battery had been stolen along with some other things!

It wasn't uncommon to have VW entire engines stolen when parked in the wrong areas.

busiris

So who is going to tell the TV station that they got part of the oil change reccomendation they highlighted correct, the 2000 Lexus does call for conventional oil and not a synthetic but failed to alert other consumers about cars that do require manufacturer specific products that are synthetic?


I think the comments below give a clear picture of why any serious attempt to educate the public on the proper lubricants and frequency of service will probably fail...

This is a series of comments from a BMW Z4M owner from a different forum. I've listed only the comments from the OP, as the advice given was all across the board.

First comment:

Hello, I start and run my '06 Z4M to temperature (210 deg oil temp) regularly but haven't put more than 5k miles on the car since the last oil change, which was 2 years ago. Oil level is perfect and tthe computer is recommending another 2200 miles but I'm starting to get worried. I only have 18k miles on the clock.

Next comment:

Great advice Steve - thanks. Yes, 2.2k miles will take another year. Want to make sure I am not throwing away perfectly good oil considering the car is in a heated garage and not run hard.

Next comment:

Many thanks for the responses. I am amazed that if synthetics truly need to be changed annually, then why did BMW NA cancel annual oil changes AND the computer, with all of its sophistication, not recommend it? In full disclosure, I do spend $$s on gas to properly warm up the car before driving it and giving it a warm, covered home. Note:BMW didn't cancel annual oil changes, and that policy is still in effect.


Last comment:

All, thank you for your thoughtful responses. I took my beloved Z4M to the dealer, and in addition to the $220 oil change, I was recommended, per the manual, to do a brake line flush ($260) and diff fluid change per my complaint of rubbing noise in the diff (another $250). Really?

I declined diff and brake, and went ahead and just did the oil change (labor was waved bringing total to $120). I believe BMWs recommendations are per hard (track) driving and Michigan weather, not up and down Sunset in a temp controlled garage. I am still not convinced that my oil/filter was bad, at least upon visual inspection. If there were molecules that had broken down as a result of normal temperature cycling, I think that says something about lousy oil. If the filter had broken down, that says something about a lousy filter.

BTW, I will not drive my car cold so long as there are reciprocating parts in my engine that aren't specified to operate and cold temps. BMW says "drive cold" to light off the catalyst at the expense of your engine - but still recommends throwing away perfectly good oil, filters, brake fluid, and diff fluid.

BMW recommends, at a minimum, an annual oil change, regardless of mileage, and a bi-annual brake fluid change. BMW provides both services in the first 4 years/50K mile warranty.

This fellow has decided he knows all about lubricants,as well as how to judge their current status and quality.

The car sold new in the $55-60+ K range.

I don't see how its possible to educate owners with the attitude above to do anything other than what THEY think is the correct policy to pursue.

explorerx4

Last year it started leaking oil and it was pretty obvious it was from the drain plug.
I bought a new factory plug, but I couldn't get it to thread in, so put the old one back in.
Took it in for service a few weeks later and forgot to tell the dealership I had a replacement drain plug.
When I picked it up, the SA said they put in a new plug because the old one was leaking.
Good customer service, as far as i was concerned.
A thousand miles later it was leaking again, so I bring it back in to check it out.
I hear the SA say to the the Tech, I'll try and sell it.
He says it's not the plug and it's $900 to fix.
My kid was taking it to school in a couple of days, so i declined, as it was not a big leak.
Car is back this week, so I cleaned off the bottom of the engine with brake parts cleaner and drew a chalk line around the oil pan.
Hopefully I'll be able to figure out what's really happening in a couple of days.

busiris

Just a guess, but it sounds like someone stripped the threads in the oil pan where the plug screws into...