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A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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Comments

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 1,521
    So now I have to paw through all the jugs looking for the HTO-06 spec?

    You mean you didn't know that Honda has some engines that require a proprietary oil specification that exceeds the API and ILSAC standards?
  • Stever@EdmundsStever@Edmunds YooperlandPosts: 38,985
    edited February 2013
    Oh, before I forget Doc, do you send the vehicle data to Mitchell when you get a car in the shop? The VIN, mileage and service stuff?

    And if you do, do you ask for the owner's permission before doing so?

    Mitchell (and the rest I assume) sells that info Carfax and the rest I understand.

    (Never had a Honda).
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,448
    Toyota had the same language in 2004-2007 and suffered sludging concerns. Chrysler had the same problem. The failures are the direct result of the API and ILSAC spec'ed oil not actually meeting the engines needs. The manufacturers ate the warranty expenses related to those failures. Now if they had instead required a product that met their engines needs, would that have been wrong to do?

    Well, then, what is the average consumer to do?

    If you can't rely on the manufacturer's specifications, then its really no more than a crap-shoot in the end.

    No offense, but it seems to me one starts skating on thin ice when they start attempting to overrule the manufacturer's suggested maintenance criteria.

    To most concerned consumers, it starts looking more like a measuring contest...And less like responsible advice.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 17,713
    >Mitchell (and the rest I assume) sells that info Carfax and the rest

    Does that work the same for body shops? What kind of payment or reward do the stores get for turning in information on the customer work paid for by the customer without the customer's permission?

    This message has been approved.

  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,594
    If you can't rely on the manufacturer's specifications, then its really no more than a crap-shoot in the end.

    I've heard that for a few years, Chrysler published the wrong specs for transmission fluid. I forget the exact details, but I think they were supposed to take something called "9196" or "Type +4", but they accidentally specified "7176" or "Type +3". Supposedly, this was one of the primary culprits behind the early failure of their 4-speed automatic transmissions.

    Dunno if there's any truth to that though. And, if it's true, I wonder if Chrysler would step up to bat? I know someone who bought a Dodge Dynasty brand-new, and it ate its first transmission within 36K miles, picked up under warranty. The second one died around 85K or so, and I think they covered half of it.

    My 2000 Intrepid's transmission schedule called for 100K intervals under the "regular" schedule and 50K under "severe". My goal was to shoot for every 30K, just to be safe, but I think it ended up being something like 30K, 75K, 100K, and 130K. Never made it to 160K, as someone pulled a hit-and-run on it in a parking lot at 150K, and sent it to an early grave.
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,448
    edited February 2013
    I can understand an incorrect specification being printed and distributed initially, but it seems to me it would be in the manufacturer's best interests (financially, image, etc.) to send an update ASAP.

    I know, in the case of my daughter's Altima, she received a letter about 1 1/2 years after buying it that clarified exactly what CVT fluid was acceptable, and more importantly, what wasn't.

    To manufacture a multi-year production run with a gross error in the manual specifications stretches my ability to accept such a thing.

    My wife owned a 1990 Plymouth minivan with 4-speed auto, and the transmission fried at 77 K miles. Chrysler replaced it for free, but my understanding was that it was a common problem caused by excessive heat buildup, not a fluid failure. I know a couple of other folks that had the same vehicle type, and the same transmission failure.

    In the end, the "go to" source is always the manufacturer. My personal feeling is that, if you can't trust the manufacturer, then you can't trust anyone when it comes to service. Heck, they built it, so they ought to know what's best.

    Edit: Here's a link to the mis-labeled transmission "incident".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultradrive

    It never was applicable to our vehicle, since we never had the transmission serviced...
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,594
    My wife owned a 1990 Plymouth minivan with 4-speed auto, and the transmission fried at 77 K miles. Chrysler replaced it for free, but my understanding was that it was a common problem caused by excessive heat buildup, not a fluid failure. I know a couple of other folks that had the same vehicle type, and the same transmission failure.

    77K miles...got one of the good ones, did ya? ;) As for the fluid thing, I asked my mechanic at the time about it, and he said the only thing the 7176 would do, versus the 9196, was make it shift more harshly. So, I've always thought the fluid thing was a bit of a red herring, and perpetuated by those who would defend Mopar at all costs. (as much as I've loved my Chrysler products over the years, even I have my limits...)

    My theory was always that the transmission was simply poorly engineered, and under-built. In smaller, lighter cars it wouldn't be too bad, but mate it to something heavy, or something with a lot of torque, and that's where the problems would be more likely to pop up. As the years went by, they did improve the transmission, but I don't think they ever truly got it "right".
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,020
    I change the brake fluid in all my cars at 6 to 24 month intervals(depending on what the OM calls for and whether they see the track or not). That said, I can see where someone who is mechanically ignorant and inept would call it a rip-off if the OM did not call for a change.

    Of course I also change the "lifetime fill" ATF and final drive oil in my BMWs at 50,000 mile intervals and I change the Mazdaspeed 3's transaxle oil every 30,000 miles(using Motorcraft Full Synthetic Manual Transmission Fluid). And they ALL get coolant changes(using OEM coolant ONLY) at 2-3 year intervals.

    But then I'm the guy who is so reckless that he changes his own motor oil and batteries...

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • I have never used "MINI" oil, whatever that is supposed to be---probably a can of Mobil 1 with a new label glued on it.

    My two cents is that if a new 2013 car has an engine that will implode if I use a 20W multiple rather than a 10W multiple, but oil of the same quality, that I really don't want that fragile little french poodle anyway.

    I'm not going to Mars--I don't need that level of narrow engineering.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 1,521
    2dexos label

    Typo or intentional?

    the official oil of NASCAR. I guess that means the molecular tails of the oil only curl to the left?

    Is that supposed to be funny?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 1,521
    But gee, the jug says it's universal

    Love the disclaimer at the bottom of the page.....
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 1,521
    Oh, before I forget Doc, do you send the vehicle data to Mitchell when you get a car in the shop? The VIN, mileage and service stuff?

    No, and they have never requested it.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 1,521
    Well, then, what is the average consumer to do?

    If you look you'll realize that in this case, pay attention to the person who has had specific training on this subject and is sharing that information.

    If you can't rely on the manufacturer's specifications, then its really no more than a crap-shoot in the end.

    You can rely on the manufacturers specs, you need to rely on the manufactuers specs. Many manufactures are not relying on API and ILSAC anymore.

    To most concerned consumers, it starts looking more like a measuring contest...And less like responsible advice

    Now why would "some" oil companies and certain representatives of this site want it to be that way?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 1,521
    I change the brake fluid in all my cars at 6 to 24 month intervals(depending on what the OM calls for and whether they see the track or not). That said, I can see where someone who is mechanically ignorant and inept would call it a rip-off if the OM did not call for a change.

    Putting an end to being wrong both ways starts by demonstrating that this has been happening to technicians and shops for a long time.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 13,589
    All this oil talk is a big reason why I just take my car to the Honda dealer (well, the Hondas I do!). Especially when they are under warranty. does 2 things. 1 is it (should) make sure that the right fluids go into the car. 2 is that if there is an issue, they have all the records and the responsibility that goes along with having touched it. So, when the MM system says go in, it goes in.

    and if that is not enough to keep the car and engine healthy, the system is woefully broken.

    and unlike a quickie lube, they also check to see what else is called for (though the MM also tells that). For the most part, the owners manual does not even have a schedule any more.

    Like RB though, I tend to do some things early. Specifically, trans fluid changes and coolant.

    I let the dealer do the brake fluid too when called for, but pretty sure that Honda and BMW (if they still do) are the only makers that actually call for it. I know my other cars never did.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

  • Stever@EdmundsStever@Edmunds YooperlandPosts: 38,985
    edited February 2013
    Does that work the same for body shops? What kind of payment or reward do the stores get for turning in information on the customer work paid for by the customer without the customer's permission?

    Beats me - just "stuff" I read on the net. Supposedly it's the Mitchell SE Management Program that automatically sends customer information, repairs, mileage, etc. directly to Carfax. But you know what they say about "stuff" you read on the net. :shades:
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,020
    Here's my regimen for my daily drivers:
    Mazdaspeed3: oil change and any other services called for every 7,500 miles- at the dealer. I use only Mobil 1 5W-30; since it is a DI turbo I like that the oil meets HTO-06. Oil changes are free(I provide the oil) since I bought the car at that dealer.

    X3 2.5: I change the oil at 1/2 the interval that the SI system calls for(@8,000 miles). No oil I have tried maintains a TBN above 1.0 to 10,000 miles, including Mobil 1 0W-40(an LL-01 oil). I tried Mobil 1 5W-40 for several runs and settled on Rotella T6 5W-40 as used oil analysis has shown that all three oils perform similarly. The oil services and inspections are performed at the dealer, which has an excellent service department that never tries to upsell unnecessary work.

    328i: Ditto, except that I use only Mobil 1 0W-40 since the car is still under warranty. All services called for by the CBS are performed at the above dealer.

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 13,589
    so you are doing BMW oil changes every 4K? Or is it 8K?

    Quite a bit shorter than the newer ones that seem to be pushing 15K+!

    My Acura just hit 4,000 miles, and the MM is still showing 60%, but likely drops to 50% in the next few days. Changes are supposed to be done when you hit 15%, so I am figuring about 7,500 miles.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,020
    Sorry for the confusion- I change it every 8,000.

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 1,521
    Quite a bit shorter than the newer ones that seem to be pushing 15K

    Drivers habits can have a significant impact on the mileage that the monitor will allow. The more highway miles one drives, the longer the distance can be. Aggressive driving doesn't relay into a significant decrease in interval lengths, but frequent starts with short trips will knock it down fast.

    FWIW my Ford escape gets has been getting to the 10% mark as early as 7800 miles and as late as 9000. I have run Mobil 1 in my Escape, but now that there is the WSS M2C945-B (Full Synthetic) I switched to it.

    I do oil analysis on every other change to monitor how well the maintenance system is doing, so far so good. At 90% the oil hasn't even darkened but I average over 400 highway miles each week because of the teaching gig.
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