A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

thecardoc3

Well, they failed to show up on Monday, but made it in Tuesday. BTW, He said New Yorker and here it's a Town and Country, that wasn't even close. Well anyway...

The first thing I noticed was the puddle on the ground just inside of the left rear wheel. Sure enough the brake pedal was fading to half travel due to the rusted left rear brake line/hose assembly.

The old PCM was on the floor just in front of the drivers seat. I keep preaching, test don't guess and this one of course is no exception. It doesn't matter how simple something seems to be, test and confirm what is going on. So the scan tool confirmed the trouble code P0605. It could be cleared but would reset within seconds after doing so. The next was to pull the schematic to identify powers and grounds for testing and it became very clear something wasn't right with this situation. The PCM and TCM are separate modules. The PCM is under the hood, drivers side between the headlight and the battery. The TCM is inside the left front inner fender. He replaced the wrong computer. (which means they didn't test anything)

So with the powers and grounds confirmed, at the TCM he needs a new TCM.

BTW, he said he doesn't have enough money to do the TCM right now but did ask me to replace the brake hose for him.

thecardoc3

ASE current statistics. http://www.ase.com/about-ase/statistics.aspx?mcid=fb.sumrg

Check out the numbers of certified techs.

thecardoc3

"He writes "We are all screwed if only dealers can service new cars"

With the attitude he displays, he deserves to be in a world with no techs at all.

Mr_Shiftright

Why would you bring a car that's under warranty to an indie shop for repairs anyway?

roadburner

Mr_Shiftright said:

Why would you bring a car that's under warranty to an indie shop for repairs anyway?

You wouldn't- assuming that you have access to a dealer that employs competent techs. In the case of the Fiesta ST cited by Baruth, I'd probably pay the indie shop to fix it properly rather than deal with the inept crew at the Ford dealer who couldn't even detect a problem...

thecardoc3

roadburner said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Why would you bring a car that's under warranty to an indie shop for repairs anyway?

You wouldn't- assuming that you have access to a dealer that employs competent techs.

If they are working at having and growing better technicians, what do you think having someone like Baruth showing up does to the chances of them staying in the trade (let alone the dealer) long enough for them to become great techs?

roadburner said:

In the case of the Fiesta ST cited by Baruth, I'd probably pay the indie shop to fix it properly

So here is a car that is under warranty and in order to "fix it" they have to cut the sub-frame to access a trapped nut and then weld it back up. That's a proper repair?

There was a thread not two months ago where a similar circumstance had an owner bashing a shop for doing essentially the same thing, only that one wasn't in warranty plus there is a big difference between cutting an access hole for a body nut and cutting the sub-frame.

roadburner said:

rather than deal with the inept crew at the Ford dealer who couldn't even detect a problem...

There is so much more to this than that. First what would anyone say about a tech going out on a road test and have to drive the car like they are doing an autocross in order to try and detect some kind of an issue? Even then, how about his own and his racer buddies misdiagnosis of the problem being a blown strut? (Especially when the article is full of him bragging about all of his diagnostic prowess!) If he was half as good as he suggests he is in the article then figuring out a lower control arm bushing movement issue should have been well within his reach. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he went in the door at the dealer telling them it had a strut problem since they had already diagnosed it and set the stage to have the tech not identify the true issue.

Then we have the parts of the article that talk about him not paying for the check engine light diagnostics and the alignment shop not charging for it.

If the check engine light was caused by the aftermarket exhaust, why didn't he find that out on his own? He wants to look down his nose at the techs and brag that he is so good, that should not have even have had to go the dealer and he should have been able to figure it out and used his article to explain what was going on.

For the dealer tech under warranty they get .3 (at the most) to diagnose something like that. In this case with the failure being the result of an aftermarket modification the manufacturer doesn't pay anything and now for the tech to get paid for his/her time the owner of the vehicle has to. They apparently whined and complained to the point that the dealer waved the charges, which means the tech got ripped off.

When enough "Baruths" show up young techs learn that they can do better for themselves by not being techs and the whole process gets to reset.

qbrozen

Holy hell. Cutting the car apart and welding it back together? While the car is under warranty? Oh hell no.

thecardoc3

qbrozen said:

Holy hell. Cutting the car apart and welding it back together? While the car is under warranty? Oh hell no.

It would be quite appropriate if it is no longer under any warranty.....JMHO

qbrozen

I still wouldn't do it, personally. But I mention the warranty in particular because I assume a dealership would drop fhe whole subframe to fix it. 

roadburner

Even though I now know their techs never make mistakes, I'm extremely thankful that I don't have to ever darken the door of the service department of any of my local Ford dealers.
That 2015 Mustang GT Performance Package getting away from me was a HUGE blessing in disguise.

thecardoc3

roadburner said:

Even though I now know their techs never make mistakes,

So why don't you get a job there as a tech and show the world how it's supposed to be done?

Meanwhile we will get to place bets on how long you last.... How about we start the over/under at two weeks?

roadburner said:

I'm extremely thankful that I don't have to ever darken the door of the service department of any of my local Ford dealers.

I never did ask and not sure what will come of it by doing so now but when you said you are now on the "inside" what is your new job? Dealer right?

roadburner said:

That 2015 Mustang GT Performance Package getting away from me was a HUGE blessing in disguise.

I wonder if the feeling is mutual?

thecardoc3

qbrozen said:

I still wouldn't do it, personally. But I mention the warranty in particular because I assume a dealership would drop the whole subframe to fix it. 

They would have probably not have just dropped it, but replaced it. The part would then be inspected and a report written on the finding and the failure investigated further if deemed necessary. From there maybe a TSB would have been generated, and who knows maybe it could have grown into a full recall.

roadburner

thecardoc3 said:

I never did ask and not sure what will come of it by doing so now but when you said you are now on the "inside" what is your new job? Dealer right?

Yes.

roadburner said:

That 2015 Mustang GT Performance Package getting away from me was a HUGE blessing in disguise.

thecardoc3 said:

I wonder if the feeling is mutual?

Actually, the Mustang was at the Ford dealer that is part of the same dealer group as the excellent Mazda dealer that serviced my Mazdaspeed. I wouldn't have hesitated to take a car there. Unfortunately that dealer is located 2 hours away, and I'd now prefer to get my car serviced nearby- and the nearest Ford dealers don't exactly instill confidence- on the service side of things, at any rate...

guitarzan

roadburner said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Why would you bring a car that's under warranty to an indie shop for repairs anyway?

You wouldn't- assuming that you have access to a dealer that employs competent techs. In the case of the Fiesta ST cited by Baruth, I'd probably pay the indie shop to fix it properly rather than deal with the inept crew at the Ford dealer who couldn't even detect a problem...

If I get a new vehicle, this is where I will be at. After being the guy that solely goes to the dealer, for the advantage of OEM parts and solid repairs, I have completely changed my view.

After a water pump replacement, the Celica needed a water pump just a couple years later. How could this be? I am convinced that the Toyota dealer put all of the old fluid right back in or otherwise charged for a pump they did not replace.

I am not sure, but I think the water pump my indie guy put in is six years old now. Most likely a Chinese one. No issues.

The Hatch will not stay up on my Celica in the winter. In this 7th gen version, the weight of the glass/spoiler/wiper is too much for the pressure provided by the shocks in the cold. Under warranty I took this to the dealer. I have a written order which states they replaced the shocks and swapped them left to right, but got no additional support.

Fast forward ten years later. I told my indie guy about this. He took me to the hatch and said, "See those bolts? Those are OEM. They must be broken for removal. And they have never been removed. "

With my prior car, an Acura CL, there was moisture in the headlight. In advance I called and asked if they could replace the glass only. YEP. Low and behold I didn't look at the order that yes I signed, they replaced the entire fixture. It was EXPENSIVE. Hello? do you know WHY you are doing this repair? I waited while they put the old fixture in and swapped just the glass, fixing the actual problem.

This is not FORD. Ford was the reason I went Japanese. Walking into a FORD dealership for anything gave me the shudders. I could list a dozen nightmares from Ford.

Every single dealer I have dealt with has screwed me. I will very carefully weigh any potential dealer visit, even during warranty. Many new vehicles come with oil changes. No thanks. I will do that myself or have indie do it. Dealers to me are a major risk. Every, yes every dealer I have dealt with bats 1000 with regards to unethical behavior.

thecardoc3

roadburner said:

thecardoc3 said:

I never did ask and not sure what will come of it by doing so now but when you said you are now on the "inside" what is your new job? Dealer right?

Yes.

Well, so what do you do there?

roadburner said:

Actually, the Mustang was at the Ford dealer that is part of the same dealer group as the excellent Mazda dealer that serviced my Mazdaspeed. I wouldn't have hesitated to take a car there. Unfortunately that dealer is located 2 hours away, and I'd now prefer to get my car serviced nearby- and the nearest Ford dealers don't exactly instill confidence- on the service side of things, at any rate...

Probably the biggest question never raised out in the open in front of the dealers is "Why is it like that"?

Until that is explored and exposed nothing is going to change. There will be turn-over of the people involved but the reasons for it will continue to be ignored because they will say it's too expensive for them to fix it. ( BTW. This isn't limited to Ford dealers)

roadburner

guitarzan said:

roadburner said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Why would you bring a car that's under warranty to an indie shop for repairs anyway?

You wouldn't- assuming that you have access to a dealer that employs competent techs. In the case of the Fiesta ST cited by Baruth, I'd probably pay the indie shop to fix it properly rather than deal with the inept crew at the Ford dealer who couldn't even detect a problem...

If I get a new vehicle, this is where I will be at. After being the guy that solely goes to the dealer, for the advantage of OEM parts and solid repairs, I have completely changed my view.

After a water pump replacement, the Celica needed a water pump just a couple years later. How could this be? I am convinced that the Toyota dealer put all of the old fluid right back in or otherwise charged for a pump they did not replace.

I am not sure, but I think the water pump my indie guy put in is six years old now. Most likely a Chinese one. No issues.

The Hatch will not stay up on my Celica in the winter. In this 7th gen version, the weight of the glass/spoiler/wiper is too much for the pressure provided by the shocks in the cold. Under warranty I took this to the dealer. I have a written order which states they replaced the shocks and swapped them left to right, but got no additional support.

Fast forward ten years later. I told my indie guy about this. He took me to the hatch and said, "See those bolts? Those are OEM. They must be broken for removal. And they have never been removed. "

With my prior car, an Acura CL, there was moisture in the headlight. In advance I called and asked if they could replace the glass only. YEP. Low and behold I didn't look at the order that yes I signed, they replaced the entire fixture. It was EXPENSIVE. Hello? do you know WHY you are doing this repair? I waited while they put the old fixture in and swapped just the glass, fixing the actual problem.

This is not FORD. Ford was the reason I went Japanese. Walking into a FORD dealership for anything gave me the shudders. I could list a dozen nightmares from Ford.

Every single dealer I have dealt with has screwed me. I will very carefully weigh any potential dealer visit, even during warranty. Many new vehicles come with oil changes. No thanks. I will do that myself or have indie do it. Dealers to me are a major risk. Every, yes every dealer I have dealt with bats 1000 with regards to unethical behavior.

I'll have to say my experience has been different at least with respect to the BMW dealers I have used as well as the one Mazda dealer I patronized when I had an MS3.

stever

Story on the radio this morning about retraining money for laid off factory workers and how the trade schools are swamped with people learning HVAC and trying to go the apprentice electrician route. Tons of competition for jobs for the new grads. No report on how the mechanic trade schools are doing.

thecardoc3

Both of those careers can be taught in a school setting and even then still have legitimate apprenticeship programs. The auto repair trade cannot be taught in a school setting beyond the absolute basics and has no real apprenticeship program. Even then, for the automobile repair trade there is no end for its techs to need to study, learn and continually buy more and more tools through-out their entire career and that's without considering the constant pressure to do things for nothing. Now add the turn-over that occurs for every reason, (poor wages and benefits, no job security) on top of the kind of job satisfaction one can gain from articles like the one linked this morning and how do you think the automotive schools should be doing?

stever

They should be doing great - sounds like plenty of jobs await the grads. The best the HVAC guys were doing was $13 an hour jobs (as opposed to the $25 hourly they were getting at the factory).

roadburner

thecardoc3 said:

Well, so what do you do there?

My official job title is product specialist- it's not a sales position. I help new customers find the right car for their needs, deliver new and CPO cars, and follow up 2-6 weeks later to ensure the customer is comfortable with the various vehicle features and technology. I also get called by Service occasionally to help troubleshoot some issues- mostly involving telematics.

That said, we have a GM who expects everyone to pitch in where needed- so I've also taken ups, clocked in new cars, gone on test drives, inspected lease turn-ins, accompanied salespeople on out-of-state deliveries, detailed cars in the showoom, and made sure that the new cars on the lot are in the right place and oriented properly.

thecardoc3

stever said:

They should be doing great - sounds like plenty of jobs await the grads.

Yea, jobs that start them out at $10/hr while they have to figure out how to pay for school, buy their entry level tools (some $20K today) and get to deal with the Baruth's of the world for all of the trouble.

stever

"Everything" is sales imho. The techs probably aren't told that. If the dealership would pay them to fix stuff right the first time, the dealer would earn lots of repeat and referral business.

thecardoc3

stever said:

"Everything" is sales imho. The techs probably aren't told that.

Over the last few years I have shared a number of examples of what the work is really like and what it takes to be a competent technician. Any efforts to try and force it to be something other than what it really is only serves to make it more difficult. While there is an element of what techs do that requires some selling, that is not where their main focus needs to be. That's one of the reasons there are other people who have that as their primary focus as part of the team.

stever said:

If the dealership would pay them to fix stuff right the first time, the dealer would earn lots of repeat and referral business.

Now we are making some progress. There are a number of issues that would improve if the pay was really reflective of the work and education that are required to be the tech that the vehicle owners need to have available to them. Which BTW leads to one of the last and most difficult aspects of all of this that needs to change, the career path.

Traditional views hold that a tech who is working in the bays is moving up if he/she then becomes a service advisor, assistant service manager, or a service manager etc. The reality today is that many of those positions are held by people who were never technicians, let alone worked at being one long enough to really master the trade. There was a time when it was true that a tech could by virtue of knowledge and skill move into those positions and since the technology didn't really change maintain a reasonable level of competence. Now there is so much to have to learn just to be competent before you add in what it takes to keep up with all of the new technology and engine and transmission designs (etc.) that there isn't another career in the building that demands as much of the individual employee. What is looked at as a step up is little more than someone giving up on being a technician and most of the time they do it to avoid having to continue to learn how to deal with the technology and the physical challenges of working on cars. Meanwhile the tech that doesn't "move up" to one of those other positions and keeps studying and improving his/her technical and physical skills isn't seen as being successful and that's the person the customer really needs.

So we have a trade that doesn't have anything comparable to offer it's newcomers when compared to all of the others, and you aren't viewed as successful at it, until after you quit doing it. (If even then)

stever

Everything is sales. I'm trying to sell you on the issue of techs knowing where their paycheck is coming from and how that is tied in with keeping the customers happy. That means don't put baby in the corner too.

thecardoc3

So what happens when the techs find that the pay isn't there when they get to where it's supposed to be?
As far as Baby is concerned, that is a valid perspective and in some dark corner is exactly where most shops and dealers try to hide their best people, and it's for totally selfish reasons that they do it.

When a tech goes for a ride or steps out front to help a customer, for the vast majority of techs that is unpaid time. (REM. They are only being paid by how much time they spend dealing with the car that is already in their bay) The time spent with a different customer amounts to unproductive time against the one that is a work in progress. Think about what RB wrote above about road testing, the techs don't even get paid to do that. Hopefully he is doing more than just driving it around and reporting whether a given problem occurred or not. The techs should be setting up equipment so that if the reported symptom occurs he can command the system to record pertinent data for the techs to analyze when he gets back to the shop, plus he has to be able to communicate correct perceptions of the vehicle behavior during the event. An example of this would be imagine having the engine stall when coming to the shop. The wrong thing to happen is for him to come back and just say, yea it stalled. The right thing to happen is for him to recognize specifics about the stall such as did it just shut off like you hit a switch, stutter and die, idle to slow when it died? He also has to be very specific about the restart after the stall. Did it fire right up? Did he have to help it with the throttle to get it to start? Was he broke down for a given period of time? (and on and on) Was it trying to fire when he tried to restart?

When you think about the above its always better if the tech experiences the failure than for another person to have to relay the information, but again for the tech to take that on they are losing that time when they could have been doing something else and making money.

Mr_Shiftright

If indie shops can pay straight salary to techs, why can't dealerships?

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

If indie shops can pay straight salary to techs, why can't dealerships?

Greed.

Mr_Shiftright

Dealers are greedy? I can't believe it....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMIyDf3gBoY

thecardoc3

FCA moves to lock down security codes

thecardoc3

Dealership management will quickly point out that without "flat rate" production goes down, profits go down and they also say that accuracy and efficiency don't improve.

Accuracy and efficiency are going to take decades to improve no matter what pay plan is in effect. The constant changes all bring their own learning curves and it's impossible to prepare in advance for all of the things that can and will go wrong with a car. On top of that, they not only don't pay fairly for diagnostics they don't train the techs the kinds of routines that you have seen me demonstrate. The present system simultaneously rewards and punishes the flawed routines that entry level techs are taught based solely on the outcome of each event and that has served to help thin the ranks of talented techs well before they really start to master the work.

stever

And we're back full cycle to what the real fix needs to be.

Disposable cars (or at least cars that don't need maintenance or repair expect perhaps once every 3 or 4 years). They really need to be better engineered on the front end so we can take people out of the equation on the back end.

thecardoc3

stever said:

And we're back full cycle to what the real fix needs to be.

That's not the fix, and never will be and there-in lies the real issue that has been plaguing the industry, the repair trade and consumers alike.

stever said:

Disposable cars (or at least cars that don't need maintenance or repair expect perhaps once every 3 or 4 years). They really need to be better engineered on the front end so we can take people out of the equation on the back end.

It's about time consumers see how the preaching that they have been getting for years was all about removing the people from the "back end". There were a lot of dealers in the past that saw their parts and service divisions as a necessary evil. Some have flipped that to being revenue sources that are managed to drive profits, while doing everything they can think of to limit costs including, but not limited to forcing the repair trade to not be a lifetime career choice. The only thing left to do now is shine the light onto the rest of the parties that have been working to make it less likely for the consumer to find a qualified tech when they need one.

The dealers are just one group that deserve credit for the current state of the trade. "Consumer experts" have also earned a significant share of the credit for where the trade is today and where its heading. Now if only they had the conscience to look consumers in the eye and come clean about it. But no, they won't. They will do little more than continue to criticize any failures that occur and never own up to their contribution for setting the stage for them to happen.

stever

Dead end career. Better to learn how to program the robots that are going to change your oil/batteries or swap out your drivetrain. Parts department? 3D printers. Sales? Why do we even need dealerships? Wait 3 days for a repair, when you can swap the cabin onto a new chassis? Why own a car in the first place?

If you think being an auto tech is going to be a 40 year career, better think again.

Mr_Shiftright

Doc Sez: "Dealership management will quickly point out that without "flat rate" production goes down, profits go down and they also say that accuracy and efficiency don't improve. "

They forget to mention that customer satisfaction also goes down (way down) and the vehicles don't get serviced properly.

Gee, unhappy customers and bad service---what a winning combination !

Mr_Shiftright

Doc -- give this fellow a hand will you:

http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/42676/mazda/3/steady-2k-idle-no-no-throttle-action#latest

Might he have a PCM problem here? Damaged wiring harness?

roadburner

Mr_Shiftright said:

Doc Sez: "Dealership management will quickly point out that without "flat rate" production goes down, profits go down and they also say that accuracy and efficiency don't improve. "

They forget to mention that customer satisfaction also goes down (way down) and the vehicles don't get serviced properly.

Gee, unhappy customers and bad service---what a winning combination !

BMW NA uses several different metrics to rate their dealers- and satisfaction with a dealer's service service is one of the important factors.

thecardoc3

How's that ? http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/42676/mazda/3/steady-2k-idle-no-no-throttle-action#latest

Mr_Shiftright

See I didn't guess too badly. Thanks for posting the diagram. Hope that helps him.

thecardoc3

One of these days I'll get you to never need to try and guess. No guessing is required when you really know how to test and prove what is wrong. Did you see his update?

Mr_Shiftright

But without a car in front of me and no database, what else am I supposed to do but guess?

Yes I saw the update and he has a wiring harness problem. So now it's time for him to take out his probe or VOM meter and get to work!

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

But without a car in front of me and no database, what else am I supposed to do but guess?

http://buymitchell1.net/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=M1&Category_Code=ONLINE

You know by now that I'm not one to turn and walk away when the going get's tough. When I was told that I would never be any good as a technician, I signed up for home study classes through the USMCR and got the base education that I needed to have. When computers started showing up in everything on the street I signed up with CIE and learned how to deal with electronics. When the aftermarket scan tools that we were using had holes in the coverage that threatened to compromise my ability to take car of my customers, I stepped up and bought the O.E. tools that I needed to have, for them. Next year, I'll have been forty years in the trade and when it comes to studying and learning new things I still have the pedal all the way to the floor. So when you ask me what are you supposed to do my answer is step up to the plate and do what-ever you have to do for the customer. If that means buy service information, then buy it. Where do you think those pieces of those schematic come from? They aren't free to me, I have to pay for them. Now you know what they cost for me to try and help someone, on top of the time that it takes to find the information and then put it into a response.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Yes I saw the update and he has a wiring harness problem. So now it's time for him to take out his probe or VOM meter and get to work!

Go ahead and tell him that. I already spelled out the specifics. Basic voltage drop tests will lead him straight to the problem which BTW is what someone really needs to do when they have to "check ground connections" or what-ever may be appropriate in a given situation. Just taking connections and trying to clean or tighten them isn't checking them, until after an excessive voltage drop has been confirmed to be occurring at that connection.

thecardoc3

Cloned tools.

Wi TECH-MicroPod-2-

You got to love some of the fine print when you scroll down the page.

wiTECH MicroPod 2 Diagnostic Tool V16.04.12 For Chrysler Support Multi-Languages

Can't Be Updated, also pls do not connect the network

So what does the real one cost?

http://www.dealershipcloseouts.com/store/#!/Chrysler-Jeep-Dodge-MicroPod-II-Diagnostic-Tool/p/50047144

thecardoc3

http://www.ratchetandwrench.com/RatchetWrench/September-2016/RW-All-Star-Awards/index.php?cparticle=7&siarticle=6#artanc

Don't know what to say.

stever

Sweet!

Wish they'd listed city/state for the nominees.

thecardoc3

I know where some of them are from. The one winner John Thornton (instructor and very deserving of recognition) is why I was reading the article. The rest of it was quite a surprise.

stever

Let me know if you know anyone in Las Cruces. :-)

It's always nice to be recognized - congrats.

thecardoc3

This isn't a surprise, beyond someone actually admitting it.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20160815/RETAIL05/308159997/1434

stever

Who wouldn't rather get a new car instead of an oil change?

thecardoc3

So the next time someone complains about having a stabilitrack system failure, are you going to tell them you would rather they just buy a new car instead of having someone available to them that can repair it?

guitarzan

Unfortunately this article shows dealers are of no true help to consumers. What people should consider is the total cost of ownership, not their monthly payment, so that they may make good financial decisions. Did not the populace learn anything after the economic collapse of 2008? Really? Many of them are still playing the payment game? (This is rhetorical, as obviously the answer is yes.)

As the above comments allude to, many consumers make this decision, aka with one significant system failure they kiss the car goodbye and take on a new loan, which can be a bad financial decision.

The dealership is of no help. Their premium on parts and labor assures that no normal person would want to do any major repairs to their car.

What is missing from the article? The margin on new cars is nothing! So what is the dealership's motivation? Correct me if I am wrong but I do not think that it is making up on volume what the small margin fails to bring. Instead, they steal a perfectly good used car and mark that up for the next sucker. They are lying to the consumer about what they really have in terms of a good running vehicle, that could be put back together with a reasonable cost (in many cases.) The dealership is no different than the financial people in New York, trading trading trading, sometimes helping, many times leaving a wake of financial destruction behind them.

At least we have some people like Dave Ramsey to help cure many of us of our stupid buying habits. The battle for souls rages on.