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A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    If it did, don't you think every air force in the world would be spraying it on as we speak?
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    edited February 2013
    From a radiation standpoint, generally speaking, the denser the metal, the more effective it is at blocking radiation. Dental office X-rays are pretty intense, and that's why a lead blanket is used in that instance.

    That's true for ionizing radiation such as X-rays (as you pointed out), gamma rays, etc.

    But for RF frequencies, the most important characteristic is the conductivity of the material. What really happens when RF energy (electromagnetic radiation up to several hundred terahertz) hits a shielding material is that the RF energy induces a current in the "shield". The current actually sets up an opposing field which, on the other side of the shield, exactly cancels out the incoming field. That's why copper is a better shield than aluminum, and why aluminum is a better shield than lead (for RF signals).

    If you're attempting to avoid minor RF radiation, something as lightweight as perforated aluminum foil may suffice.

    Yes. Depends on what kind of shielding effective you're looking for and, like you said, the frequencies involved. If the wavelength of the signal is greater than ~20 times the size of the perforation, the perforated aluminum foil looks like it's solid.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Has anyone used license plate spray that claims to block the photo radar cameras?

    I wonder if it really works?


    If its black spray paint, I would say its effective.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Nope, it's (of course) clear.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,288
    edited February 2013
    The only effective way to defeat photo radar is with a GPS equipped detector/smartphone app.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    If you're attempting to avoid minor RF radiation, something as lightweight as perforated aluminum foil may suffice. It all depends on things like the power of the signal/radiation and frequency,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage

    Start reading there, and then follow the credits to other information.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    I cannot find any references to such a device for purchase and there is no such item on my tow truck.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    The Mythbusters proved that it doesn't work.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    I watched a few more of Erics videos. Some of his stuff is ok, while a lot of it exposes how ill prepared he would be to work in a high tech shop. It turns out he's a member of the iATN (The international Automotive Technicians Network) . The iATN is supposed to be for professionals, but there are some people who have represented themselves as qualified and gotten into the group who really don't measure up yet, Eric would be one of them IMO. For the most part nobody get's excited about that because the hope is that they would spend enough time with the site and study so that they learn the things that they don't know yet and become better techs for being a member. Eric obviously is a member that hasn't been spending as much time studying and trying to learn as he should be, and it really shows in his videos.

    The problem is, the average person doesn't know what's really right or wrong with what people like him are telling them, so as long as he gets some stuff right, they end up accepting the stuff that is wrong. Then when a customer hears us tell him/her what they really need to know (and we can use the dexos issue right here in Edmunds as an example of what I'm talking about and you have all have seen how that has played out), people defend what is really a lack of an education on the subject and then try to claim that we are the ones who are wrong. The fact that people get to preach fallacies and myths and get accepted as experts, while real education inside the trade often get's one dissed leaves me pretty discouraged at times. In a way I half expected the lead shield suggestion to get approval and it was nice to see that it didn't. One misconception down in one little corner of this big old world and untold millions to go.

    But even now I ask myself what's really in it for me to put in the time to try and make things better? So far the only thing that ever comes back is the demand for an even greater effort when there is so little time anyway. Since my posting a link to Erics video both here and in the iATN several techs (as well as myself) have reached out to Eric and made him aware of training that he needs to attend so that he will find out some of the things that he thinks he knows a lot about are actually myths. But will he go and learn or was it a waste of effort? In some ways I almost expect to see him defended by his followers who themselves don't know how much lubrication technology has changed in the last few years. Which BTW Steve, GM's engineers do know a lot more about the requirements for their engines and the vehicles emissions systems, than the oil companies do. That's why they developed the dexos specification and then published it, so that oil companies could develop products that meet GM's needs and the dexos specification. It's really sad to see an article here in Edmunds that still let's one of the oil companies provide misleading information to the readers about this topic. The authors of that article here are no better than Eric with his videos for the consumers.

    Well that's enough for now, I still have to write the outline for my show this morning. I'll be using Erics video's as one of the topics, and I'll probably talk about the Taurus that I diagnosed yesterday for O2 heater codes that is a bad PCM and not the O2 sensors as many people would be throwing at it first. Hopefully someone grasps some of this and then at the least goes and grabs some training material and confirms for themselves how all of this really works instead of holding onto the myths that are constantly batted around. But what about me, what do I really stand to gain for the effort?
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    edited February 2013
    But what about me, what do I really stand to gain for the effort?

    Monetarily, probably nothing, unless it leads to a following of repeat customers who trust you and are willing to pay for your expertise.

    Non-monetary rewards come from knowing you're telling your customers the right thing; being honest and straightforward with them; that you're doing the right thing (sounds corny nowadays, I know). If some of them choose to ignore that advice, than so be it.

    Tell me, do you charge a premium to other repair shops who send their mysterious problem vehicles to you - above what you would have charged the customer had they brought the vehicle to you in the first place? Maybe change your business model to one where you only deal with other shops, and not the consumer directly.

    I am sometimes over ridden by management on decisions, usually because they think the money spent is not worth it or the schedule impact too great. A year or two down the road when that decision comes back to haunt them - and costs them (and their program) even more money and time, I usually find a way to gently remind them that they are where they are because they chose to ignore my recommendations.

    But, I get paid the same either way, so it doesn't impact my bottom line (unlike you, I suspect).
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    I mentioned the lead because it worked for me in isolating radio alternator and heater fan interference in a car many years ago. I was told to wrap the lead around the unit and it seemed to do the trick. Did I claim to know the difference between radio waves that an X-ray machine radiate? No. But I know what worked for me. I thought this was a forum of brain-storming in which through many voices, solutions can be found. Pardon me if I was wrong and no one is suppose to offer up any opinions. No one else was suggesting a metallic shield...my suggestion got us pondering that as a possible solution.

    If your (the other chap) idea of aluminum foil would work best, then why do the auto manufacturers not provide some form of appropriate protection around the necessary components so that stray RF does not interfere? This is common practice inside electronic household components.

    It was merely an idea that I put out there and sure didn't intend for it to be perceived as falling into a category of spreading fallacies and myths nor was I expecting anyone to see me as some sort of expert. And I also did not diss you. Proof of that was when I said it is not a simple world we have anymore..
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    The only effective way to defeat photo radar is with a GPS equipped detector/smartphone app.

    Or don't speed or run red lights. :P But that's another discussion.

    Cardoc, I've known a couple of petroleum engineers. Not tribologists mind you but pretty smart guys. I sort of know a GM metallurgist. Something tells me there's a few Erics at GM. :)

    Oops, guess one of the main GM guys really is an Eric. (Lube Report).
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    edited February 2013
    If your (the other chap) idea of aluminum foil would work best, then why do the auto manufacturers not provide some form of appropriate protection around the necessary components so that stray RF does not interfere? This is common practice inside electronic household components.

    They do - provide appropriate protection around necessary components. There is some type of Electromagnetic Compatibility (EMC) Spec the automakers have to adhere to and pass, similar to Mil-Std-461 for military avionics. Network cables in cars are most likely twisted pairs, which provide a significant amount of protection against RF coupling. The ECU and other computer modules are in a metal housing that is connected to the chassis that provides shielding. Inside the electronic boxes there are all sorts of circuit design techniques that can be used to reduce the effects of coupled RF energy.

    I bet the level of protection in a car is much greater than what you find in a standard consumer product, that only have to meet the requirements of the FCC's part-15 reg.

    As to your lead shield - I just don't see what it was doing for you that some other kind of material wouldn't do.

    As a footnote, one place where aluminum and copper don't work is in shielding magnetic fields. To do that, you need steel, iron, or some specialty substance such as Mu-metal.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I don't speed anymore or at least I try not to.

    Radar detectors are no good with instant on radar.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,288
    edited February 2013
    Radar detectors are no good with instant on radar.

    Well, yes and no.
    Yes if you are the only target.
    No if you have a "rabbit"(a faster car) traveling @1,500'-2,000' in front of you- when the radar paints the rabbit your detector will alert you.
    Since 1982 I have received only 2 tickets- both for speeding. In each case the detector did its job, but I was not paying attention to potential threats.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Back when I was a long distance Harley rider several years ago I learned that you could really push the speed limit if you were in moderate to heavy traffic, because everything around you made for a larger target.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    I mentioned the lead because it worked for me in isolating radio alternator and heater fan interference in a car many years ago

    One additional comment, at the risk of beating an already dead horse.

    Lead does provide some shielding - just that it's not as good as other, easier to handle materials such as aluminum foil and copper tape.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    edited February 2013
    Oops, guess one of the main GM guys really is an Eric. (Lube Report).

    Really Steve? Did you check the date on that story? A lot has changed since then including Shell Oil aka Pennzoil marketing a licensed dexos product. Scroll down this list to Pennzoil and see for yourself.

    http://www.gmdexos.com/licensed brands/dexos1licensedbrands.html

    So why doesn't Valvoline have one yet? It comes down to consumer education. When consumers learn the differences in the products through proper education, they will go to the parts store and walk past the wrong product and buy the right one. Valvoline IMO is/was banking on the idea that the consumers wouldn't learn that things have changed. Apparently they still are because they and a few other notables such as Amsoil do not currently have a licensed product on store shelves.

    But let's talk about the bigger problem here. Eric has responded back to me, and to several others regarding this topic and after a few short days of study he isn't feeling too good about what he uploaded. Now you just tried to use old news to keep the readers in the dark, why did you do that? For Erics part he is going to do another video and he will have Kevin McCartney featured in it and they will set the record straight. Meanwhile here in Edmunds there are articles that are still so out of date about oil (they were incorrect when they were done) that the information in them is misleading for vehicle owners. From my perspective a shop that is up to date with their training and reccomending the correct product for a given vehicle will have consumers who believe themselves to be educated on this subject from articles such as the ones that I can link to right here in Edmunds thinking that the shop is trying to scam them. That should never happen if this is all about the consumers, should we be wondering if there is something else going on?

    Go back to the list of dexos approved products, see how many are branded by a parts store label?

    Do you see the names of smaller companies like Wolfs Head? They sell a very competitively priced product that is a fully licensed dexos product, and yes I have some of their oil on my shelf for my customers.

    I can't understand why if the TV stations want to do "sting" operations and Edmunds has people who want to take part in them, why are they not going after the places who promote oil changes for twenty one dollars and ninety-five cents? There is no way that they can be using the correct products in today's vehicles and make a profit, which in short means they could be caught red-handed risking voiding the consumers warranty with no trouble at all. The only thing GM has done with their dexos license is put this issue onto the front of a bottle of oil.

    Valvoline has an oil that they market as meeting the dexos specification, without it being approved. It does not actually meet the specs right off the bat because it is too thick at -30f. GM's require oil to virtually meet the 0W spec at -40f. That's just one difference, there are many more. One of the failures associated with improper engine oil use is timing chain stretch and guide wear. Search for GM timing chain issues/complaints and you will find a lot of them, the primary cause is consumers, shops, even the dealerships themselves in some cases are still using oil that fails to meet GM's specifications.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    Did you check the date on that story?

    Nah, just skimming around. When it gets on the net it doesn't go away and that link showed up high in the hits list.

    What I couldn't find is a ruling by the FTC on whether GM gets to do the tie-in sale and require Dexos or not. It was in the process but it's been a while now. Valvoline was probably one of the complainants in that Magnuson-Moss dispute.

    $21 oil changes are offered for a couple of reasons.

    One is that it keeps your customers coming in the door twice a year so they always think of your shop when their car needs work.

    Two is that service writers often work on commission and they'll either try to up-sell you something when you drop the car off or the tech will find an issue on the lift. (Then many customers get mad and don't believe the tech).

    But you knew that. :-)
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    Tell me, do you charge a premium to other repair shops who send their mysterious problem vehicles to you - above what you would have charged the customer had they brought the vehicle to you in the first place?

    No, because it wouldn't be ethical to charge one customer more than another for the same service. Even so, I've had other shops think they should get charged less as some type of a favor. Then there have been things that have happened that get really awkward from there, and I have had to tell some shops that they are on their own for now on.

    Maybe change your business model to one where you only deal with other shops, and not the consumer directly.

    I know others that do this and have considered it. Many shop owners still try to hold to the ideas that you will see pushed here in these forurms. The perception that all you have to do is pull a code and the computer tells you what is wrong, or just use google and you can come up with an easy answer. They don't understand that this is hard work no matter who is doing it, nor where. There hasn't been enough done to help consumers see value in the efforts that it requires and in fact what usually is seen is quite the opposite. You'll have no problem seeing that kind of pressure right in this very forum and it's either from a lack of understanding of what is really going on, or there is a direct goal that is tryng to be attained by pushng that perception.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    just use google and you can come up with an easy answer.

    You know plenty of techs do just that. The rest subscribe to Alldata or Identifx or Mitchel1 or the OEM tech sites and they just do their search there. And plenty of techs go to the auto shops forums and post tech tips to help other mechanics fix recurring or oddball problems on vehicles that the diagnostic tree misses.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    $21 oil changes are offered for a couple of reasons

    Stupidity and Insanity come to mind.

    One is that it keeps your customers coming in the door twice a year so they always think of your shop when their car needs work.

    They could do that while ensuring the correct products go into each car, at a correct price. Just like Eric, many still don't know things have changed and if they only read Edmunds as they relaxed they would have no reason to adjust their routines, except unless they see my responses. The problem
    then becomes when you attempt to "prove me wrong" you reinforce the outdated practices and that hurts the consumer.

    What I couldn't find is a ruling by the FTC on whether GM gets to do the tie-in sale and require Dexos or not.

    Written with a capital "D" Dexos is a name, but it is correctly written "dexos1" which is a specification. GM, Ford, Mercedes, BMW, VW/AUDI, Toyota, Honda, Chrysler, Nissan, ( and now Hyundai/Kia and just about every other manufacturer) have proprietary specifications for their vehicles. Some are met by API/ILSAC most are not. Properly educating the consumers, and shops/technicians alike means for now listening to exactly what I have been saying here, and that goes back to people like Mr. McCartney. Valvoline knows how to make the correct products, they choose not to. That's fine, educate the consumer and the shops correctly and if someone has a vehicle that Valvolines product meets the specs for, then great! If someone has a vehicle that Valvoline does not meet the specs for that's OK the consumer and shop will need to buy something else. When that happens often enough, how much are you willing to bet that Valvoline will make some adjustments in their product line, just like Penzoil (Shell) did? BTW, you can easily buy a Penzoil product that has the dexos label on it, and right beside it find one that does not. Don't kid yourself, the two bottles may look the same, the products inside are quite different.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    You know plenty of techs do just that. The rest subscribe to Alldata or Identifx or Mitchel1 or the OEM tech sites and they just do their search there. And plenty of techs go to the auto shops forums and post tech tips to help other mechanics fix recurring or oddball problems on vehicles that the diagnostic tree misses.

    Thanks for continuing to try and dumb it down.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    Why should the companies have to license stuff from GM instead of just belonging to the API? Dexos may be a global standard additive pack that GM wants to use in everything they make, but just give away the spec and let me buy SuperTech without having to pay more because Walmart has to pay GM for the privilege.

    No tech can know it all, and good ones look stuff up, whether it's torque specs or something more exotic.

    I am curious as to which one(s) you subscribe too.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,122
    edited February 2013
    >http://www.gmdexos.com/licensed brands/dexos1licensedbrands.html

    The link didn't work right for me even after I included it all; only part was recognized as html on my page.

    http://www.gmdexos.com/licensedbrands.html

    http://www.gmdexos.com/licensedbrands/dexos1licensedbrands.html

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    Why should the companies have to license stuff from GM instead of just belonging to the API?

    API has an interest in having a "one size fits all" specification. The problem is, one size cannot fit all. 5W30 is a very wide category and can have products as thin as 0W20 and thicker than 10W40 fit inside it. You wouldn't use a 0W20 where a 10W40 should be, nor vice-versa. Yet if you aren't careful about how you choose your 5W30, you could in fact do just that.

    Dexos may be a global standard additive pack that GM wants to use in everything they make, but just give away the spec and let me buy SuperTech without having to pay more because Walmart has to pay GM for the privilege

    The API and ILSAC is a minimum standard, many manufacturers requirements exceed it.

    The formulation to make a dexos product is common knowledge among the lubrication companies. Just like BMW's LL01, and LL04 Mercedes. 299.1 ( .3, .31, .5, .51, etc. etc). VW's 502, 505, 505.01, 504, 507, Ford's WSS-M2C930 and now WSS-M2C945. Do I need to keep going, I hope you get the point that this isn't even about just dexos1! The choice for a company to actually make a given product for a potential customer or not is a business decision just like anything else. Instead of still trying to dumb it down, why not go for a fully educated consumer and then allow them to choose? GM is making it easy for the consumer by having the information right on the front of the bottle. Otherwise you'll find statements on the back of the bottle like "Meets the engine protection requirements of dexos". The problem with that line is what about the rest of the requirements for dexos1? Which by the way is the omission of the "1" in the first statement a typo or do they have a reason to not write the spec out correctly?

    Start reading the backs of some of the products on the shelves. You'll find similar statements like "Meets the engine protection requirements of GM6094M". OK, so what does it mean to claim to meet the specs for an obsolete specification, let alone only part of it? You'll see the same thing with 4718M, ACEA A1 and many others. (ACEA is now written A1/B1 and actually should include the year as it keeps advancing too such as A1/B1-07)

    No tech can know it all, and good ones look stuff up, whether it's torque specs or something more exotic.

    Totally agree, and if the techs can't know it all, then how is it people who never worked a day in a shop in years (if ever) get to play experts?

    I am curious as to which one(s) you subscribe too

    One cannot have too much information at hand.
    MOD (Mitchell On Demand)
    Identifix
    CTI (Carquest Technical Institute)

    The iATN
    www.iatn.net

    The manufacturer specific O.E. sites when necessary
    http://nastf.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3292
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    Did you check the date on that story?

    Nah, just skimming around. When it gets on the net it doesn't go away and that link showed up high in the hits list.


    Almost missed a chance to point out that when you try and find fixes for cars with the same approach, the result is quite often just as bad or worse. :P
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    If you have a discriminating mind and resist a hair-trigger, you can actually find some good solutions on the Internet---but you have to be able to know how to spot "solutions" which are logically impossible, or solutions that trip up on confusing correlation with causation.

    I've rejected outright a lot of solutions for problems on my MINI but I found 3 that worked great, at no cost to me...repairing a glove box that pops open on bumps; curing an errant seat belt warning light; curing an errant TPMS light.

    the Internet is also good when you want to do a modification on your car but you don't want to be the first person trying it. "a clever man might learn from his mistakes but a truly wise one learns from other people's mistakes". :P
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    "The problem is, one size cannot fit all. 5W30 is a very wide category and can have products as thin as 0W20 and thicker than 10W40 fit inside it. You wouldn't use a 0W20 where a 10W40 should be, nor vice-versa. Yet if you aren't careful about how you choose your 5W30, you could in fact do just that. "

    What do you mean by this?
    I don't think you are talking about quality control at the point of bottle filling with wrong product.

    How do you explain your average shade tree mechanic that has done his own oil changes for 250000 miles and often using only a 'FRAM' filter and local CTC or Walmart oil that always states its specs and SAE grade, in his xyz car, and engine is still within 5% of CT specs? And an obvious non oil burner, let alone timing chain stretcher.. ?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    edited February 2013
    Yet if you aren't careful about how you choose your 5W30, you could in fact do just that. "

    What do you mean by this?
    I don't think you are talking about quality control at the point of bottle filling with wrong product.


    You are correct, this isn't a quality control issue. A 5W30 that actually meets BMW's LL01 specification is thicker than a product that meets API's 10W40. A 5W30 that meets GM and Fords specs are as thin as products that meet API's 0W20. They are all 5W30, by API's regulations but totally different products.

    How do you explain your average shade tree mechanic that has done his own oil changes for 250000 miles and often using only a 'FRAM' filter and local CTC or Walmart oil that always states its specs and SAE grade, in his xyz car, and engine is still within 5% of CT specs? And an obvious non oil burner, let alone timing chain stretcher.. ?

    Anecdotal.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I found NASTF just yesteday. :)
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    "Anecdotal.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence"

    This response suggests that you assumed I raised my point/question due only to internet sources. I'm almost on the home stretch to retirement age. That means that for many more of my learning years than not, has been pre-internet...at least pre-popular-everyone-has-it internet.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm glad you brought that up. Sometimes one has to look at what's actually happening in the world rather than the theoretical "what could happen".

    This question of using this oil or that reminds me of the story about a lecture at a university, where a professor of architecture was lecturing on "the flaws in the roman aqueduct design"....and which point a student interrupted him and said: "Yes, but they are still standing".
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    Then you have the customer wanting a simple oil change on her Caddy. The shop owner, being a pro, looks up the specs and quotes $70, refusing to substitute a "generic" oil for the GM spec oil for their Caddy (a synthetic, say). So the customer leaves because the quick lube will do it for $35.

    Who's going to pay when the engine dies?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=anecdotal&searchmo- de=none

    This response suggests that you assumed I raised my point/question due only to internet sources

    I'm almost on the home stretch to retirement age. That means that for many more of my learning years than not, has been pre-internet...at least pre-popular-everyone-has-it internet.

    The word appears to be much older than the internet, and both you and me combined.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    It shouldn't be GM, and it won't be the shop that approached this subject in a professional manner. That leaves the customer and the quick lube doesn't it?

    Now its up to the lawyers and the judge. Who do you think the judge will choose?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    Really? I mentioned it several times in the R2R thread a year ago.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    The national franchise can afford better* lawyers than the local 4 or 6 bay shop.

    But it may depend on whether the local judges are elected and how much the shop owner contributed in campaign contributions. :shades:

    (*Better as in high-priced. Results vary, just like garages do, lol.)
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    Its strange how all along this thread the main theme is that I am in support of proper and full education on this subject for the consumer, the shops, and the technicians and you are doing everything that you can to work against it. That should strike consumers as a bit odd IMO.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'd be perfectly willing to wager that you could lead me blindfolded into an auto parts store and put my hands on the shelf with the synthetic oils, and that I could randomly choose 5 quarts and put them in my engine, and then drive coast to coast and back 2X (12,000 miles) and not sustain any discernible engine damage.

    Disasters at Quickie-Lube places are a perfect example of confusing causation and correlation, because I don't take my care to a MINI specialist just for the oil change--I am taking my car there because they are not only changing the oil, they are looking around, and they understand the car they are looking at.

    This simply doesn't happen in Quickie-Lube. People taking a fairly new car to a Quickie-Lube are simply not doing the proper maintenance from the get-go.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,288
    People taking a fairly new car to a Quickie-Lube are simply not doing the proper maintenance from the get-go.

    Exactly. Back in 1992 I was looking at a 1990 E30 M3. The idiot owner repeatedly told me how he changed the oil every 3,000 miles- but he could not produce proof of a brake fluid or coolant change- never mind an Inspection I or II.
    Moron.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yep. And an M3 is a car where maintenance is critical.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    you are doing everything that you can to work against it

    Not at all, but you have to walk to the other side of the counter and imagine how your customers view your operation.

    The customer doesn't care if you have the latest subscriptions and scan tools and all the rest. Not many people ask their dentist where she gets her probes. They just want good service, their car fixed and they don't want to pay a lot.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    Yes, of course, but I doubt it would come as any surprise to any of us here, that when someone quotes the word "anecdotal" and then posts an 'internet' link to a 'site' covering anecdotal evidence, combined with the infamous presumption surrounding internet and Googling, that many/most/all opinions are formed by what is read on the internet. By dismissing me with that link, and then responding further with your 2nd post, whether or not it was your intention, you are essentially suggesting that; me, my family (the mechanical ones) and my friends of over 40 years...are all liars, or exaggerators. In knowing friends and their vehicle history and what service they get (or don't get) I have been able to deduce for myself that there is often trumped up debate over oil, when...in my experience...it is more important how the oil gets changed ( I personally drain it over night or even 2 nights over a w/e for a more thorough drain) and how often it gets replaced. Home efforts are usually rewarded far more than 10 minute quicky-lube joints also, in many ways but one specifically important one, is being able to see if your oil quantity had gone up and whether you could smell and then see coolant in the oil from an internal head gasket leak. Owners who leave it and forget it and rely solely on dealer and jiffy lubes, where speed is the priority, don't catch other failures that when caught in time and addressed, also contribute to those high miles.

    As a mechanic who sounds like a stickler for details, I would think you could appreciate the sense behind what I'm talking about here. Even if it does mean that your overall work load may be le$$ened..

    When I read about a new Honda Accord manual saying to keep the factory oil in the car till the oil-minder computer says to change it, I think a few things here that has to be determined using some common sense. "Break-in" oil is not a term you hear about very often anymore. Many would not even say they ever recalling the term. Now...while perhaps a break-in oil would help the engine break-in a little better than without, modern mfgr processes are so advanced these days that I am a little surprised they even go there, with that manual maintenance info. This whole scenario, in my common-sense mind, is misconstrued and not totally accurate anyway..
    For one thing, if one assumes there is engine wear from break-in oil, then would not the oil filter start clogging and start opening the relief by-pass valve, thereby distributing unfiltered oil then, at a greater and greater quantity? Are we to trust the oil-minder system? Cuz we never have electrical connection failures in modern day vehicles do we?? Or circuit boards that crack badly enough that traces also crack and break their continuity..

    Anyway, and does Honda really have our best interests in mind here? What if the oil-minder doesn't trigger till 15000 or 20000 miles? Even if it triggers at 10000, in my car I might leave it for 4000-5000 miles. (against my usual practice of a new oil and filter within a 1000..and when I cut the filter open, you should see how badly clogged the media was even in THAT time frame..

    IMO, if Honda (as only one brand example) really had our best interests at heart, and if the factory oil was some form of break-in oil, they should have instructed an oil filter change..or one or two, during the initial break-in period. What is better for the oil pump to be picking up...well filtered oil or poorly filtered oil?

    FWIW, me, my friends and family...those of us who have done high miles on..lets say Walmart oil, and still had good cylinder compression and low oil usage, (in engines that were a good design) there was a common theme. Most changed our very first oil prematurely, long before 1st change recommendations in the manual. And the rest were diligent. As oil tech and ability to lube and clean has improved so much in the last two to three decades especially, I especially attribute that also to these engine longevity stats. Maybe a coincidence?
    Of course what I am saying here right now also becomes...technically...anecdotal to those who don't want to believe me. But it doesn't make it untrue..
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited February 2013
    This simply doesn't happen in Quickie-Lube. People taking a fairly new car to a Quickie-Lube are simply not doing the proper maintenance from the get-go.

    Well, isn't that the attraction of the "quickie-lube" business model, ie. in and out as fast as possible?

    I would bet good money that the majority of new car owners haven't taken the time to read (or even scan over) their owner's manual. They're not about to "waste " their time having someone go over their "perfectly running" automobile looking to find problems that, more than likely, are going to cost the owner $$$.

    Never mind if the problems are real or manufactured by the "inspection".

    When I started driving in the late 60's, the cars I drove required maintenance at specific intervals. I remember the oil cups on generators (not alternators) and actually greasing the suspension joints... Unheard of things in today's cars.

    And, the manufacturers shoulder some of the blame for this behavior, by touting how reliable their cars are, without doing enough to educate owners on necessary and proper maintenance items.

    And, why don't they push maintenance? Simple.... The competition doesn't, because it sounds expensive, , and every manufacturer wants to be competitive.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    I'd be perfectly willing to wager that you could lead me blindfolded into an auto parts store and put my hands on the shelf with the synthetic oils, and that I could randomly choose 5 quarts and put them in my engine, and then drive coast to coast and back 2X (12,000 miles) and not sustain any discernible engine damage.

    OK, your on.

    Choose and purchase one of the following cars.
    Any VW with either of these two engines.
    2.5L R5 & 5.0L V10 TDI-PD

    A Nissan 370Z or another model with a similar Nissan VQ engine.

    A Ford GT40

    If you lose you pay for the repairs. If you manage to be lucky, I'll pay you back for the oil. Edmunds has enough money to play this game, let's see if they are willing to stand behind you.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    This simply doesn't happen in Quickie-Lube. People taking a fairly new car to a Quickie-Lube are simply not doing the proper maintenance from the get-go.

    I couldn't agree more..I even touched on this in my...small-book post above..

    I learned many many MANY years ago, that even when you are busy as hell and cold and tired and just need to get the oil changed, when succumb to the temptation to go to a lube joint, you get the car outside and look it over before you leave, you find more grief than before you went in..like the &$%#^ brake-fluid cap not attached properly and in the worse wet wintery weather :mad:

    I have been in circumstances just a few times over the years where I had to go there instead of crawling under myself..and you tell the kid to "not touch ANYTHING! I'll pay you just to dump the oil..full pop..I'll remove and replace the drain plug..I'll torque it myself thank you very much, and have had to bribe them to let me put my oil in myself for those who wouldn't let me push the car out into the parking lot where I add my own oil, which I will buy from them if they want.)

    Fortunately have only had to do this about 3 times over the years and hundreds of thousands of miles. With cars being as tech-advanced as they are now, I would think that this (quick lube joint) would be an even riskier practice nowadays. The cap off my brake fluid reservoir though really did it for me..
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    By dismissing me with that link, and then responding further with your 2nd post, whether or not it was your intention, you are essentially suggesting that; me, my family (the mechanical ones) and my friends of over 40 years...are all liars, or exaggerators

    You are seeing that exactly as I do many of the stories used against shops, it isn't any fun to be on that side is it? The hard truth is anyone can claim any level of knowledge or training and they don't have to present any proof at all. In fact they usually just resort to trying to present a shop or a tech as either incompetent or dishonest and that's supposed to be all the proof they need to support their position.

    "Break-in" oil is not a term you hear about very often anymore

    That's because it isn't needed anymore. With the use of roller cams instead of flat tappets the need to overdose ZDP/ZDDP is eliminated. Now if you are reparing a European engine that uses flat tappets, the prelube that goes onto the camshaft is essential, because without it there isn't enough boundry layer protection in the new spec oils for that first start-up. That's the "cliff notes" there is way more to it than I have the time to share right now.

    Anyway, and does Honda really have our best interests in mind here? What if the oil-minder doesn't trigger till 15000 or 20000 miles?

    Now we are swinging to the other side of the debate. Trying to use those numbers with Honda is a misrepresentation, Honda has no literature to support oil drain intervals for the length of time or distance. BMW however does, and Mercedes can in fact theoretically hit 18,500 (typical interval is 11,000)

    Even if it triggers at 10000, in my car I might leave it for 4000-5000 miles.

    If you were a shop and advised that, you would be targeted as overselling and a rip-off.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    brake fluid or coolant change- never mind an Inspection I or II.

    True or False There is a post on Edmunds forums where a shop advised flushing the brake fluid, and the consumer was informed that the shop was trying to rip them off.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    And, the manufacturers shoulder some of the blame for this behavior, by touting how reliable their cars are, without doing enough to educate owners on necessary and proper maintenance items.

    And, why don't they push maintenance? Simple.... The competition doesn't, because it sounds expensive, , and every manufacturer wants to be competitive.


    Accurate and counter-intuitive if you think about it.
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