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A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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Comments

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    While we were out of state, a fellow called to see if I could look at the headlights on his 97 Eldorado. We always forward calls from the shop to my cell, that way I’m available to my customers anytime they need me. Someday I’ll let you know what that get’s to be like. He explained that he and several others have already looked at this trying to figure it out and they haven’t had any success at all. He bought and replaced all of the bulbs and that didn’t help and trying to follow the wiring schematic in his Haynes book he couldn’t make any sense of the circuit at all.

    We do our diagnostics by selling blocks of time and I do any and all testing required in that period of time. In some cases we sell an hour, and if the car is diagnosed quickly we reduce the fee appropriately. In others we sell the hour and I occasionally go over that time if I am just about to arrive at the answer. We don’t charge extra when we go over like that, because we stick to the agreed price. There are times that we have to get more time if a problem turns out to be really complicated, you never really know what you are up against until you complete the diagnostics. The customer always has the choice about whether to stop or continue. The biggest mistake anyone ever makes is to assume they have seen a particular problem before, or assume that the problem someone else’s car had is the same since the symptom was similar, as in this case no headlights.

    He didn’t want to agree to an hours’ worth of time, so we set the limit at half an hour and he wanted to wait for the car. Our shop doesn’t have a fancy waiting room, every dime is spent on the things we need for the cars. That means he can watch every step that is taken and in this case he got to see some things that he never knew ever went on.

    The first step of any diagnosis is to confirm the symptom and I found the parking lights and the daytime running lights worked, but the headlights were inoperative, even with the flash to pass position of the dimmer switch. Had the high beams worked in that position, it would have helped me narrow down some of the testing. The next steps take place simultaneously, between attaching the TechII scan tool and printing out the schematic the real work was about to begin.

    From the schematic;
    There is a parking light relay that is controlled by the headlight switch, it sends power to the parking lights of course, and it also powers up the three relays in the under hood power distribution center.

    The high beam, low beam relays are ground controlled by the body computer, the main headlight relay is ground controlled by the headlight switch, or the body computer or the instrument cluster, all three components can command that relay on. With the scan tool, confirming operation of the three relays was easy using the bi-directional commands. The high beam and low beam relays were being commanded as confirmed by the audible click they would make. The headlight relay was not turning on/off with the headlight switch or through the BCM with the scan tool.

    At that point a little more explanation of the wiring is in order. All three relays get the same power to allow them to be turned on, but the ground circuits for them are all different. Since the headlight relay itself had three possible ways to be turned on, and it shared the same power to it that the other two did, that meant the problem was as easy as just a failed relay, or the wire from the under hood power center to the interior of the car had failed. This is a yellow wire and it goes to pin C of the headlight switch, but again there is a splice in the harness and it also goes to the instrument cluster as well as the BCM. So the next step of the diagnostics is to pull the relay and re-install it on top of a pedestal that allows testing connections. In doing that both powers to it were easily confirmed. The next step was to check the ground control circuit and that is easily done with an ordinary test light. When I touched the ground control circuit, the relay clicked and the headlights came on.

    By this time the customer was standing right beside the car. I demonstrated that with the test light commanding the headlight realy on, I could then control the high beam, and the low beam from both inside the car, and with the scan tool. I explained that there was still more work to be done in the way of possibly locating the actual location of the damaged wire, or it could simply be bypassed. However his agreed half an hour’s time was up and we knew that the yellow wire in the harness was the problem.

    The only thing left now was for him to agree to have me actually fix the problem or not.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    edited March 2013
    Beyond the limitations of my writing skills, :blush: do you know what's wrong with that story? To get him to bring the car in, we had to cut our pricing below what it costs to provide that service. It's more than fair for me to say that while some who have been taking part in this forum may well have been able to come to the solution on that vehicle's problem, they are unlikely to have the tools and skills to do that in under half an hour. That story represents what the job as a technician is really like, day in and day out. It doesn't matter what the actual failure on the car is, with a solid routine a technician can go straight at the problem by being able to determine what is working, to what is not.

    Now can you imagine having to complete that diagnosis in under eighteen minutes? (.3hr) Can you imagine a system that expects the the technicians to complete every diagnosis in that amount of time?

    Could you do that? Or better said, would you? Now keep in mind, when that story ended, I knew there was an open circuit in that relay's command, specifically the yellow wire. What I didn't know is where that wire was open. It easily could have been the splice under the dash which would have been the worst case scenario because that meant it couldn't be addressed by easily running a replacement wire. (That was the final repair BTW)

    To achieve great customer service, there are some demands that have to be met first. You must have trained, competent people to do the work and ultimately that means that they have to be fairly compensated. Our trade's tradition of rewarding fast work actually pays the techs better to do brakes and transmission flushes than it does to figure out a problem like that Cadillac presented with. When its discovered that a problem is more than a common failure often the shops if they can sell the time will pay a technician straight time for the diagnostics. Meanwhile, a technician doing much simpler work is making 1.5-2 times the hours for that same real clock time.

    I'll go into more of the details in a little while, but this is one of Newtons laws applied to business. For every action there is a reaction, and if the pay plan fails to reward techs for learning how to take on the more difficult work, the reaction of course is they won't do it. If you try to force them, they eventually simply quit being technicians and go make a living doing something else. This has been going on for decades and is the real cause of many consumer frustrations. It will take consumers to change this but that's going to be even harder than getting them to buy the correct oil for their car. JMHO :D
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Why do you take on work like this? You're good enough to cherry pick your jobs and surely you have enough other work that you can turn down those who don't want to pay for the diagnostics, much less pay to actually fix their car.

    Your first customer should be yourself.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    some who have been taking part in this forum may well have been able to come to the solution on that vehicle's problem, they are unlikely to have the tools and skills to do that in under half an hour.

    True and true.

    Now can you imagine having to complete that diagnosis in under eighteen minutes? (.3hr) Can you imagine a system that expects the the technicians to complete every diagnosis in that amount of time?

    No. Surely some diagnoses allows for more than .3hr? Too many things on a car are simply not equal in design complexity nor execution. Or are these tiered .3 hr blocks? Pay for 18 min. troubleshooting for stage 1, then pay another 18 min for into stage 2 etc?

    if the pay plan fails to reward techs for learning how to take on the more difficult work, the reaction of course is they won't do it. If you try to force them, they eventually simply quit being technicians and go make a living doing something else.

    If this is so, then why did you have to do this below? You would think that competent techs willing to do the diagnoses that almost always go over .3 hr would be in demand and customers lined up taking a number to be next.

    To get him to bring the car in, we had to cut our pricing below what it costs to provide that service.

    Regarding my rear wheel bearing on the CRV..I was able to get it to be very noticeable when weaving. It is easier to make the symptom reveal itself the longer it sits between drives. Last time, it sat for about a week or so. If I weave hard right I get one pitch of sound, and a bit louder pitch if I weave hard left. What I don't know yet is if the caliper is free to slide to left and right of rotor centre. If it is, then the fact that I am getting enough lateral wheel movement to have the rotors rubbing on the pads when weaving, would for sure point to a bad wheel bearing, correct?
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    Great minds..I was thinking the same but you beat me to it..I'm gonna be interested to hear doc's response.

    And he does sound extra competent. I wish to hell I could have him diagnose my WB. I think that one probably would easily fall into the .3 hr bracket. A 2 min drive would be enough. Probably about 10 min from the time you drive in and park, you tell him what it's doing, he gets a seat cover and belts up and off he goes.

    Btw doc. What would you charge time-wise (and parts if you know, but don't invest time looking them up for me) to replace a right rear wheel bearing on an AWD 06 CRV?
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    When I first read this story, I was reminded of a really good All In The Family episode..but weren't they ALL really good? No such thing as a bad one, IMO...one of the greatest 30 min television comedies of all time..

    Anyway..in this one, Archie had refrigerator problems..Archie had a tech in to diagnose the problem..paid the tech his fee and off he went.. Michael said to Archie.."you're crazy, you had the guy here, paid him to tell you what was wrong, but now you still have a busted fridge!!"

    Archie looks at him and tells him he's (Michael's) the crazy one..for only 15 bucks he found out what the bad wire was and then can fix it himself! So the next few frames of the show show Archie practically electrocuting himself when he touches that bad wire to the wrong thing and leaving the studio in darkness.. lol..
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I'm gonna be interested to hear doc's response.

    I think he just likes helping people and solving problems. Need to get him to give away more free time over in Edmunds Answers. :shades:
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    I wish to hell I could have him diagnose my WB. I think that one probably would easily fall into the .3 hr bracket. A 2 min drive would be enough. Probably about 10 min from the time you drive in and park, you tell him what it's doing, he gets a seat cover and belts up and off he goes.

    While it's very likely that I could tell what the sound is from experience, I also look for every possible way to leverage my way to the correct solution the first time. So I own one of these.

    http://compare.ebay.com/like/270255531658?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var- =sbar

    In the future this tool will be even more important as my hearing continues to fail. That's another cost of being a mechanic/technician my whole life.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    Why do you take on work like this?

    Its just part of what we(I) do.

    You're good enough to cherry pick your jobs and surely you have enough other work that you can turn down those who don't want to pay for the diagnostics, much less pay to actually fix their car.


    How would you react as a consumer if you were told that my shop is the place to go with the problem your vehicle is presenting, and I turned you away at the door? When I see the phrase "cherry pick" I can't help but see that as selfish and greedy. Could I do nothing but the easier work? Sure, and I could probably turn two-three times billable hours VS clock hours today if I did. But don't we have too many already doing that? (aka Chain Stores etc.)

    Your first customer should be yourself.

    We have never been allowed to put ourselves first. That's one of the things that have driven so many potentially great techs from the trade.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    If you don't take of yourself first (including getting paid for the work you do), you won't be able to help anyone.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    No. Surely some diagnoses allows for more than .3hr? Too many things on a car are simply not equal in design complexity nor execution. Or are these tiered .3 hr blocks? Pay for 18 min. troubleshooting for stage 1, then pay another 18 min for into stage 2 etc?

    While its possible to get time for an abnormal diagnostic condition, the suggestion that you only need to get that because you aren't good enough at your job is bound to surface at some point. Meanwhile there will be people around you making bonuses on their efforts, doing easier work. Look at this following example of a vehicle problem.

    James A. a GM technician posted this on one of the forums I belong to a while back. This is edited down to the essential information from a technicians POV.

    2009 Silverado, 28,000 miles, customer reports that once a
    week or so, while driving down the road, the ABS light comes
    on and stays on. At the exact time the light comes on, the
    door locks (although already locked) try to lock and the
    fuel gauge drops to empty while the low fuel light flashes
    on. These symptoms occur for about 2 seconds. The ABS light
    goes out after cycling the key. No other anomalies are
    noted.

    Scanning all control module systems, C0561 71 and C0055 00
    are set in history in the EBCM. All other modules are clear.
    The 561 is set for stored invalid serial data received and
    the 055 is set for loss of rear wheel speed data. The
    customer states that the speedometer DOES NOT drop when the
    problem occurs.


    That's actually enough information to allow a competent technician to accurately diagnose the problem. James got .3 for being able to see where all of that lead. I could post thousands of examples like this.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    If you don't take of yourself first (including getting paid for the work you do), you won't be able to help anyone.

    This actually leads to where the solution is in the hands of the consumer, but we have a heck of a journey to tie that all together.

    I subsidize the shop's existence with teaching, writing and essentially working more than a reasonable number of hours each week. It shouldn't be that way. Consumers have for too long made the perception of fair pricing to be the cheapest price. Media has routinely praised foolish business practices and actually contributes to consumers who don't see the value we really do provide. Going back to the Cadillac, someone who replaced the headlight switch, and then when that didn't fix the problem, repaired the bad wire without saying what they did would actually make more money than we did on that car. The odd part is that customer usually walked away feeling better about the service than the average person in this Cadillac owners position.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    You need a better class of customer. They are out there; just don't give away freebies to the bottom feeders.

    No one has guessed on the intermittent ABS/code problem yet?

    ECU reflash? Loose battery cable? Leaky spark plug wires?
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    edited March 2013
    I'm gonna go with a bad connection on a rear wheel speed sensor assoc with stability control. Probably a ground somewhere assc with that wheel..and sharing enough similar circuitry with other circuits..maybe a shift out of park interlock connection which could fire the locks trying to lock, and of course the ABS light is assoc with stab control, and maybe even also when slipping it outta park. The fuel gauge momentary dump is a mystery, altho the flashing lo fuel light is not..it will be part of whatever caused the gauge to slip past that point which would trigger the light.

    I do know that simple (ya right..said with sarcasm) ground issues almost anywhere on the vehicle, can cause a myriad of other systems to light up and misbehave, cuz the current is still there, but looking for a weaker track to take..

    Forgot to add...and this sounds just soooooooo frig GM :roll eyes:
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    We do our diagnostics by selling blocks of time and I do any and all testing required in that period of time. In some cases we sell an hour, and if the car is diagnosed quickly we reduce the fee appropriately

    Most of the dealerships/shops I've taken my car to charge a flat rate diagnostic fee.. $100-120 whether they find in the problem in 5 minutes or an hour. Which is a rip-off IMO. The 15 minute block thing sounds pretty reasonable, though I'd personally like it to have it booked to the minute. Pay for the work done on your car, not someone elses.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    To get him to bring the car in, we had to cut our pricing below what it costs to provide that service

    Wow. Thats wierd. You called the guy up and said you'd repair his car at a loss if he would just bring it in and let you fix it? Uhhh... where is your shop located now? :blush:

    Now can you imagine having to complete that diagnosis in under eighteen minutes? (.3hr) Can you imagine a system that expects the the technicians to complete every diagnosis in that amount of time?

    Is that what most places do? Charge a $120 diagnostic fee then expect tech to diagnosis in less than half the time the diagnostic fee would cover?
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    though I'd personally like it to have it booked to the minute. Pay for the work done on your car, not someone elses.

    Bring your car to me Jipster - I'll be happy to charge you and anyone else with cash in hand by the minute for my expert diagnosis. :D

    I don't mind paying for time and experience.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    edited March 2013
    I don't mind paying a little extra than literal time either for that experience. Plus, some of these guys have a LOT of $ tied up in tools..many of which become obsolete before they have actually paid for themselves. Paying .3 for something that maybe took .1 helps cover these costs. It seems wrong to willfully want to belittle any amt of that diagnostic time if the guy's experience can save him .2.

    I wish there was a shop like doc's in my area.

    As for tool costs...there is at least at some level, a reward for getting to mess with all these cools toys..
    I'm using the term toys somewhat loosely of course, cuz I'm allowing for a level of geek factor. I'd wager that some of these guys get a bit excited and a bit of a personal-high reward when first using their newly invested-in tool/toy.

    (thinkin' of that 4 station wireless noise communicator) Santa...this is what I'd like under the tree next year.. lol
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    Paying .3 for something that maybe took .1 helps cover these costs. It seems wrong to willfully want to belittle any amt of that diagnostic time if the guy's experienc

    That's not the problem though. If repair books out at an hour and the mechanic finishes in half an hour, then yeah, he gets paid for full hour. But, if it books at 15 minutes, and shop charges 1 hour diagnostic, then that's really not fair.

    Really don't see how you could book a diagnostic in the first place. You are paying for time to find the problem, not time to repair.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    I don't think we are on different pages here, jipster..I think the reason doc decided to open his own business is cuz the dealer shop, took all the extras and the mechanic..the guys whose experience is what kept their lights on the taxes paid, wasn't ending up in their wallet..

    So far, it sounds like Steve was right when he suggested that doc is probably not charging enough many times. But I bet when he goes to bed at night, he sleeps better than many..a clear conscience makes one helluva sedative..
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited March 2013
    A shop owner needs someone who likes money to run the front desk so the folks who enjoy wrenching can do just that. :shades:
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    A shop owner needs someone who likes money to run the front desk so the folks who enjoy wrenching can do just that.

    It's all about profit. Depending on the amount profit generated unless the person is multi-talented where he could wrench while there are no customers waiting with questions. It would be hard to justify paying someone to run the front side of the house. If a person were that good I'd think he would open a shop of his own. Although a friend of mine has an autobody shop where he hired a manager so he could play golf 5 days a week.

    I'm curious as to why doc hasn't hired additional help so as to multiply his efforts and profit.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Well, it's two different skill sets and some people don't have both. Or don't have the interest or don't have the time to do a good job with both. A front desk manager can handle the morning rush and then keep the "crew" on schedule, help with the books and billings, compliance and do a bunch of marketing.

    I was reading about a service writer last week who had good people skills. He opened up a garage and freely admits that he's not much of a mechanic. He enjoys the management aspects of keeping the techs and the customers happy.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    edited March 2013
    I'm gonna go with a bad connection on a rear wheel speed sensor assoc with stability control. SNIP

    The fuel gauge momentary dump is a mystery, altho the flashing lo fuel light is not..it will be part of whatever caused the gauge to slip past that point which would trigger the light.


    As a dealer tech with this car under warranty, you just used and failed to repair this with the first of three attempts to fix this before it could be subject to a buyback.

    Plus, since it's now a comeback you won't be paid at all for any more diagnostics, no matter how much time you spend. You could expect to be treated like this, with problems this difficult on many diffrent manufacturers, not just GM.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    You need a better class of customer. They are out there; just don't give away freebies to the bottom feeders.

    We have a good group of core customers (about 20%). They are there for us, and we for them and have been for twenty years. The real difference between thriving, compared to barely surviving can be found in better educating about 60% of the consumers as to what it really takes to be there for them. The last 20%, can cause 80% of the problems shops ever face. They are usually the ones ready to fire off a bad review, even if everything went as good as it ever could.

    From there we still have to compete with the street pricing, and that means some old shops, that never go to schools, and haven't been investing in tools for years. They are holding pricing hostage at 80's rates, 40/hr. On one hand, you can't blame them or the people who support them yet what is happening is that causes the trade to stratify even more. There is a huge difference between their shops and mine when it comes to dealing with the technology in the cars, but that doesn't result in profits. We only survive by being very creative, and by tons of hours of effort. To get to work a forty hour week, with what we actually do, our prices would need to be about 40% higher on both parts and labor.

    No one has guessed on the intermittent ABS/code problem yet?
    ECU reflash? Loose battery cable? Leaky spark plug wires?


    None of the above. You have also used your first attempt. Two more and the car gets to be a buy back.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    Most of the dealerships/shops I've taken my car to charge a flat rate diagnostic fee.. $100-120 whether they find in the problem in 5 minutes or an hour. Which is a rip-off IMO.

    When I get a European vehicle in for diagnostics, I now have a tool that supports them better than all of the other aftermarket tools do, but it is still short of any of the O.E. tools. The payment for this tool is $228 a month. If I use it once a month, what should I charge?

    Its pretty easy to see that there is a problem with just that one part of this equation. Most would say that you shouldn't even have a tool like that, but its a part of what we do. If you combine what all of the tools cost for just the diagnostics, it costs us about $60 per event just to be ready to take the correct tool out of the box for each diagnostic. Now if we spend five minutes we push that cost lower, if we take an hour we actually lost money to the point that the effort didn't produce any income, it only paid the shops bills.

    Dealerships actually have an advantage here, they only have to tool up for one or two manufacturers depending on what they sell. We have to try to support as many manufacturers as we can justify. The cost to date is over 100K for us and still rising.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    I wish there was a shop like doc's in my area.

    There probably is, "consumer experts" have failed to explain how to find them. Here is one way.

    http://autorepair.iatn.net/

    As for tool costs...there is at least at some level, a reward for getting to mess with all these cools toys

    Right up to the moment someone writes an article that suggests a $100 code puller enables you to do everything that we can (they can't) and that no matter what our prices are it's too much. They preach this, and preach this and we find ourselves wrong if we don't make the investment to approach the jobs correctly, and wrong if we do. If you really can't find a shop like mine, at least now you know why. We've lost way too many good people to other way's of life because of that kind of abuse.

    (thinkin' of that 4 station wireless noise communicator) Santa...this is what I'd like under the tree next year.. lol

    I had a Trailblazer this week for other repairs, but while road testing it there was a bad front hub bearing. Swaying the car the noise was louder to the left and almost dissapeard to the right. That suggests the RH bearing. However the sound in a straight line clearly appeared to be from the left. The Chassis Ear made it simple to prove that it was indeed the RH bearing.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    Wow. Thats weird. You called the guy up and said you'd repair his car at a loss if he would just bring it in and let you fix it? Uhhh... where is your shop located now

    We had to limit the price to the equivelant of 1/2 an hours work to get him in the door. This is one of the flaws of the trade because of selling "time" and its constantly a rob Peter to pay Paul and in the end no one is happy with it. This customer approached us with common perspective. He's a former millwright, and used to doing his own work and considered himself as very competent, until this(fifteen year old) headlight system kicked his donkey. When he saw me getting out the Tech II and printing the schematic he was intrigued, and then in a matter of minutes he saw his headlights on and that I had full control of them with the scan tool and the interior controls nothing more needed to be said.

    Every time a scan tool comes out of the box it costs us about $60. to do that. The schematic which comes from the information system works out to about $8. a car. Heck the computerized repair orders cost us $2. If I have to use an oscilloscope and some of the other tools, the costs simply keep climbing,and we still have to spend the "time" to actually diagnose and repair the car. If we had charged "an hour" to diagnose this we would break even, by charging half an hour we got the job, but that still amounts to failing.

    Now can you imagine having to complete that diagnosis in under eighteen minutes? (.3hr) Can you imagine a system that expects the the technicians to complete every diagnosis in that amount of time?

    Is that what most places do? Charge a $120 diagnostic fee then expect tech to diagnosis in less than half the time the diagnostic fee would cover?

    If you have a problem with the car under warranty, the tech gets .3 to diagnose it. If you are no longer under warranty the tech might get an hour to do the same diagnostic. Somehow they call that "Flat Rate", it doesn't seem very flat to me.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    The 561 is set for stored invalid serial data received and
    the 055 is set for loss of rear wheel speed data. The
    customer states that the speedometer DOES NOT drop when the
    problem occurs.


    This is a huge clue to the source of the trouble. You have to understand how the ABS module gets its rear wheel speed signal which is actually from the rear wheel speed sensor in the transmission, which connects directly to the transmission control module. The TCM communicates directly to the PCM, which sends that information out on the CAN bus. (Controller Area Network high speed bus)

    Dealer techs have a significant advantage when it comes to product knowledge simply because of how frequently they deal with the same systems. Even so, this "simple" problem would be a nightmare for all but a handful of techs in the country. There is a rational way to deduce where the failure is from the information provided, without a single manual test.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    If you don't take of yourself first (including getting paid for the work you do), you won't be able to help anyone.

    I keep coming back to this and want to show just how actions by others outside the trade have made this almost impossible to do at the level that we really should be at.

    I've mentioned my newest tool, which targets European vehicles. I took in a Volvo XC70 for the drivers heated seat being inoperative. When base-lining the car I also noted that there was no control of the AC/Heater/Defroster mode doors. The scan tool hooked up just fine and allowed for retrieval of codes, clearing of codes, and some data. The codes that were setting were communication codes between the AC control head, and the mode door and drivers heated seat modules. By design the scan tool only communicates to the control head and it is a gateway for the other modules. Common failures include the mode door module as well as the heated seat module. To repair the car once it is completely diagnosed, not only would the failed module, or wiring harness problem need addressed, you also have to use a scan tool to command calibration functions to run. These functions are not in this tool, which meant no matter what we could not complete the job. Were we really there for that customer?

    I gave them the information that I had, and sent them off to the dealer, N/C. :sick:
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    That's not the problem though. If repair books out at an hour and the mechanic finishes in half an hour, then yeah, he gets paid for full hour. But, if it books at 15 minutes, and shop charges 1 hour diagnostic, then that's really not fair.

    At one time cars were not only much simpler to work on, they really didn't change, and if you could work on one you could just about work on all of them. The labor times were studied and written with specific guidelines. The time studies were all done with hand tools and if a mechanic invested in air tools to make him faster, then he benefitted from that.

    Today, who writes the labor guides? Are the jobs correctly even studied? Manufacturers when confronted by techs over labor times that were simply impossible to even meet made statements like"The labor times posted are not intended to set a technicians wage, that is a sperate agreement between the dealer and the technician. Our labor times are set to compensate the dealership for warranty expenses"

    There are more comments like that, but essntially the times are quite often impossible to meet unless a tech has done that exact repair a number of times. But the job isn't like that, we often do a given repair only once in our careers. There is no way that anyone will be fast, doing any of them once.

    Then we have the customer pay labor guides, and they typically rate the jobs for difficulty as in "A" techs, "B" techs, and "C" techs. Take the most ardent DIY'er and its being generous to them to suggest that they are the equivelant of a "C" tech. The "A" tech is the master tech today who is usually a specialist. The "B's" are the journeymen. Some will progress to become the "A" techs in the future, a lot will forever remain right at that "B" level, and most today will burnout and leave the trade.

    The work that the different techs are expected to perform actually allows for the younger techs to take longer and it pays more hours to do than what the "A" tech work does. Imagine doing a head gasket on an overhead camshaft engine in just 2.8 hrs. (warranty) When I did three of them in one day, I made 8.4 hours while the guy down the shop(a "B" tech doing "C" tech work) doing struts and alignments turned some 14 hours and didn't break a sweat.

    Really don't see how you could book a diagnostic in the first place. You are paying for time to find the problem, not time to repair.

    Correct, you can't menu price it. If I would be doing those struts and alignments I could likely turn about two hours time in one, meaning I'd make some sixteen hours a day at my labor rate. Diagnostics is much harder work, at best it paid straight time which amounts to a pay cut for harder work. At the worst it paid a fraction of the time actually spent, if the tech really spends the time. No one should be surprised at what the final outcomes of treating a tech like that are.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    So far, it sounds like Steve was right when he suggested that doc is probably not charging enough many times

    We are getting into the perception of "fair" here.

    But I bet when he goes to bed at night, he sleeps better than many..a clear conscience makes one helluva sedative

    Clear conscience, yes. Sleep? The time stamps for my posts should paint the real story. I average about five hours a night. The rest of the time will usually find me reading, writing, studying, or in the shop working.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited March 2013
    As a dealer tech with this car under warranty, you just used and failed to repair this with the first of three attempts to fix this before it could be subject to a buyback.

    So, if I buy a new car and hate it after 2 months, all I need to do is figure out some very weird set of circumstances that I can jinx the car with that an "average" tech won't be able to figure out. After jumping through the lemon law hoops, I'll be rid of the car and have some buyback money in my banking account. :D

    Although, not many states really have a three strike rule. Usually the dealer gets one more chance after a car is declared a lemon to fix it and out in Idaho it would take you five or six trips to the dealer before your car qualified as a lemon.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited March 2013
    I think you're taking the wrong approach. You should raise your prices. You should raise them to be higher than any of your independent competition.

    if your shop is as good as you say it is, people will come, and people will pay.

    Your posted labor rate is your "shined shoes and pressed pants" metaphorically speaking--you are presenting yourself as worth this rate.

    The label "they're good but expensive" has more staying power than "they're cheap but you have to go back 3 times".

    Every one of the successful shops that I know really well (know the owners really well, even socialize)---none of them are on the bargain end of the spectrum by any means, nor do they have a reputation for being inexpensive.

    But they do have a reputation for being competent and being honest.

    and they aren't necessarily fancy places either---but they are clean.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    I can see the rationale used in having diagnostic fees set the way they are. But, as a consumer it's just difficult to swallow looking at a $120 disagnostic fee, and then 15 minutes later the service advisor comes and tells you that you need a new mass airflow sensor.

    I'd much rather see it blocked out like you did for that headlight customer. Say $60 for the first 15 minutes (which will help pay for those expensive tools), then $20 for every 15 minutes after that. Maybe it's a headache either way, but at least the customer will have a choice.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    Every time a scan tool comes out of the box it costs us about $60. to do that. The schematic which comes from the information system works out to about $8. a car. Heck the computerized repair orders cost us $2. I

    At some point those tools are paid for. Then what happens to your diagnostic fees? It seems to me that any cost for tools and diagnostic equipment should be transferred to the actual cost of repairs. The only variable used in calculating a diagnostic fee should be time spnt finding the problem. Not trying to tell you how your/a business should be run... just thinking out loud. :shades:
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited March 2013
    I'd love to know the bottom line profits AutoZone drove to their stores when they started giving away OBDII code pulls. It has to be huge.

    The first manufacturer that starts giving cheap or free diagnostics to OEM purchasers is going to make a killing too. I keep trying to tell GM that, but they haven't grasped the concept yet. They are really creating a lot of ill will when someone reads a few dozen posts about a known issue (like door lock actuators) and the GM rep says they have to get a $120 diagnosis from the dealer before GM can decide whether to help them. At least lots of dealers will waive the diagnostic fee.

    (Have to say, it sure is fun telling GM and Doc how to run their business from behind a keyboard. :D ).
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    can be found in better educating about 60% of the consumers as to what it really takes to be there for them.

    Good point. Except for you, I see very few people, shops, dealerships trying to educate.

    I think most sensible people would accept high diagnostic fees and labor rates if they knew why they are what they are. Heck, put out pamplets in he waiting room in the reasoning behind prices. Hand out one after each repair. Word of mouth, from a service writer, doesnt go as far in my book. People like seeing things in print from a reliable source... an expert in the field. Diagnostic fees usually arent posted... like they are a deep dark secret. Bring it all out in the open man! I think people will be more willing to trust that way. Just one mans opinion. :)
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    At some point those tools are paid for.

    The only question is, did that happen before it is deemed obsolete? My Chrysler Star Scan was obsoleted just nine months after I bought it. It was replaced by the Star Mobile, and about a year and a half later that was obsoleted by the Wi-Tech. At that time I still had almost a year left to pay off my Star Scan. :sick:

    It seems to me that any cost for tools and diagnostic equipment should be transferred to the actual cost of repairs. The only variable used in calculating a diagnostic fee should be time spnt finding the problem

    In a simpler world that would be true. Today every manufacturer sells scan tools as software for which we get a license to use. The initial purchase averages in the $5000-7000 range for the most common makes. When the license expires the tool turns off until it's renewed for an other year. That's $1700 for Chrysler, $900 for Ford, $900 for Mazda, $1400 for GM, $1000 for Toyota, etc.

    Not trying to tell you how your/a business should be run... just thinking out loud

    Lot's of people "think out loud" along those lines, and somehow it does turn around to be someone trying to tell the consumers how we should run our shops, when they actually have no idea what we have to overcome these days. Take the above prices, now picture one or two of them obsoleteing their current tool and changing to yet another. This is where some shops support R2R because they think it will give them the tools without all of the expense. It won't.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    So, if I buy a new car and hate it after 2 months, all I need to do is figure out some very weird set of circumstances that I can jinx the car with that an "average" tech won't be able to figure out. After jumping through the lemon law hoops, I'll be rid of the car and have some buyback money in my banking account.

    If you were on this side of that abuse, you wouldn't think that it is very funny. Sometimes the cause is buyers remorse, sometimes it comes down to the customers employment circumstances have changed. Either way they write really bad CSI ratings on the tech/shop and do whatever they can to get out from underneath their agreement and they don't care if someone else gets hurt. It actually happens a lot more than you might think.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    I'd love to know the bottom line profits AutoZone drove to their stores when they started giving away OBDII code pulls. It has to be huge.

    I've gotten codes read and battery analyis from Auto Zone about 4 or 5 times. Usually just to confirm my own Jip diagnosis... which I must humbly admit to as being spot on. :blush:

    I've bought a couple parts from Autozone, others they didn't carry.

    Their battery service is pretty good. About $120 for a Duralast Gold battery (3 years free replacement/7 years prorated)... installed. Don't even have to get my hands dirty. :surprise:

    Have to say, it sure is fun telling GM and Doc how to run their business from behind a keyboard. ).

    Yep. It's great being a backseat driver, or armchair quarterback. I'm always telling Jerry Jones how to run the Dallas Cowboys whenever they are on t.v. My wife usually says he's wearing too much eye liner... man make-up that is. :sick:
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    The label "they're good but expensive" has more staying power than "they're cheap but you have to go back 3 times".

    I've been told that we actually have that very label. Our mechanical labor rate is under $80/hr. It's a death sentence for anyone with thin skin who is less than extremely determined to make it.

    if your shop is as good as you say it is, people will come, and people will pay

    Oh they do, for the stuff others can't handle that is. Then we don't see them again until the next time they encounter a nightmare problem. On paper being the most capable should have earned all of their business. The reality is, it doesn't work. When our final day comes, no-one will (or should) try to fill our shoes. It's just not worth trying to do.

    I think you're taking the wrong approach. You should raise your prices. You should raise them to be higher than any of your independent competition

    We are the highest independent. The only thing that did was make room for the others around us to raise their prices and leave a comfortable margin below us to play cut-throat with.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    The only question is, did that happen before it is deemed obsolete? My Chrysler Star Scan was obsoleted just nine months after I bought it

    Home computers are obsolete the same way, but you can still use them. Diagnostic tool run the same way... always having to buy to keep up with the latest technology? Could you have "gotten by" with keeping the Chrysler Star Scan instead of up-grading ?

    and somehow it does turn around to be someone trying to tell the consumers how we should run our shops, when they actually have no idea what we have to overcome these days.

    That's what my questions and scenarios are all about.. finding out how and why you run your shop like you do. You think Steve or Shifty are sitting there thinking, " Yeah, Jip is right... cardoc should be running his shop like that." Doubtful.

    You're wanting to teach, I like to learn. I learn by asking questions and challenging why you do thing the way you do... to learn.... not to be a wise guy. No need to be offended.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    The only question is, did that happen before it is deemed obsolete?

    I remember when I worked at a Chrysler dealership about 5 years ago, the service manager told me they had to spend a bunch of money on specialized tools and diagnostc equipment for the Chrysler Crossfire (as it was 80% Mercedes SLK based), only for the car to have slow sales (meaning very few service customers) and for it to be discontinued less within 4 years of launch. :sick:

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    somehow it does turn around to be someone trying to tell the consumers how we should run our shops, when they actually have no idea what we have to overcome these days

    You're wanting to teach, I like to learn. I learn by asking questions and challenging why you do thing the way you do... to learn.... not to be a wise guy. No need to be offended.

    No offense at all. I think you're misreading what I am trying to write.

    Could you have "gotten by" with keeping the Chrysler Star Scan instead of up-grading ?

    The Star Scan is still my most up to date Chrysler tool. It does not work on anything after 2010. I have to use an aftermarket tool, with its limitations and my J2534 for any re-flashing. That means just like the volvo mentioned, at some point I will run into a process that we won't be able to complete. More than anything that's the biggest problem, it might only be a one out of ten operations that the O.E. tool has to be used where the aftermarket tools stop short.

    The only question is, did that happen before it is deemed obsolete? My Chrysler Star Scan was obsoleted just nine months after I bought it

    Home computers are obsolete the same way, but you can still use them.

    Sorry, that's not even close in comparison. It's closer to your internet access than the PC itself, only make your internet access cost about $1500 a month. Stop paying for it and it shuts down and you can't use the machine for its intended purpose. Now the Star Scan since its a stand alone tool continues to work. But the Wi-tech that superceeds it won't. It's $7000 and on each birthday another $1700. The moment you stop paying that $1700, the program is useless. Now remember, this is how each manufacturer is running today.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Cardoc,

    After reading your postings I have no doubt that you are one of the best in your business and your shop is a place I would gladly take my cars to.

    But, I really have to wonder how you can put up with it. You work long hours, invest thousands of dollars in equipment that quickly becomes worthless and you get stuck with the miserable jobs while your competition skims off the "gravy" jobs!

    I can't imagine opening up a shop in this day and age!

    If I did, I think I would specialize in one or two makes of cars and not open my doors to everything that comes in.

    We have an excellent indy shop here that is picky about what they take in yet they are always booked. They will NOT work on older cars because of parts availability and the fear of getting stuck.

    I listened once as they "fired" a semi nasty customer who was trying to blame an oil leak on something they had done. They fixed the leak and nicely asked him never to return.

    I just don't know how and why you keep at this but for the sake of your customers, it's a good thing you do.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,204
    Doc,
    When you go to your physician and they find a problem, but they can't fix it, they send you to a specialist and still charge you.
    It seems pretty normal.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Cardoc-
    Can't you deduct the cost of your tools against your income? 3 years depreciation for capital assets? So that $10K scan tool you can deduct $3,333/year against your income? Or more if you show it only has a useful life of one year?
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490

    Can't you deduct the cost of your tools against your income? 3 years depreciation for capital assets? So that $10K scan tool you can deduct $3,333/year against your income? Or more if you show it only has a useful life of one year?


    Not trying to be cute, but that's what I call confusing income with cash flow, which are 2 entirely different things.

    A $10,000 tool still cost $10,000, and that costs usually comes as a lump sump, up front payment. Yes, you might be able to amortize it over a 1, 2, 3 or more year period,but its the income the tool produces that makes the profit/cash flow. One can't make money on an expenditure by depreciating it. The best one can do is recoup some of the costs of the tools via tax savings due to amortization/depreciation.

    Of course, if one has seriously deep pockets, the difference doesn't matter, but few independent shops have that kind of cash lying around.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    When you go to your physician and they find a problem, but they can't fix it, they send you to a specialist and still charge you

    I took my 2007 Kia Optima to a small father/son shop about 7 months ago. Felt like I was getting some increase in rpms without pushing down on gas pedal. Felt like a throttle position sensor problem. They took it out on a couple test drives, checked a few other things. SAID they couldn't find anything wrong. Ok, how much
    do I owe you for looking at it? Nothing they say. GREAT! Thanks. Definitely not something you would get at a dealership.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
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