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A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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Comments

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 1,562
    i think there is still opportunity for a young person to open up a specialty shop, one or two marques that he/she knows very well.

    Except for the fact that the dealer networks do a very good job of making the techs to specialize in specific systems. This directly impacts a young techs vehicle knowledge and works to prevent them making such a step. Keep in mind also that with the wages being barely liveable, that makes it more prohibitive to invest in more than just the essential tools that the tech needs for his/her specialty.

    but Doc is quite right--you need a large enough market to support a specialty shop. Maybe before venturing into a business, you need to stand on a street corner and count the number of cars that match your future shop's specialty.

    They also need the full compliment of tools and equipment, an accountant, a lawyer, formal business training, and enough money in the bank to live on for the first two to three years while the shop gets up to speed.

    Expect to see fewer and fewer independent shops. The climate just isn't there for them to be created and survive like it used to be.
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,627
    Expect to see fewer and fewer independent shops. The climate just isn't there for them to be created and survive like it used to be.

    The cynical among us would attribute that to a dealer/manufacturer plot. Why else require expensive scan tools that become worthless in a year or two? :shades:

    Moderator
    Minivan fan. Feel free to message or email me - stever@edmunds.com.

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited March 2013
    While I didn't get in to specifics like you did, my over the internet (and at GREAT arm's length {read, disadvantaged}) ideas were not that out to lunch then. At least not to the degree that you first dismissed them. And even Steve's ECU comment was skirting the edges even if by a little..

    Still would like to know the REST of the story...the fuel gauge dumping momentarily. PCM was behind that too then? But where was the common trail in that respect?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 1,562
    http://www.today.com/video/today/51080700/#51080700

    Of course nobody should expect anything else from the networks, but his whole premis for his story leaves some very big gaps. First, the recalls all mentioned are not new and should have been handeled by the original vehicle owners and their dealerships. In most of the cases it would not be a stretch to consider that these vehicles were subject to new car trade-ins and then subject to auction which is how they ended up on the used car dealers lots.

    Now if that vehicle was traded in for a newer version of the same make of car how did that car get off of the dealers lot without the recall being addressed? Pretty convenient to not ask that question, don't you think?

    Could those used car dealers aggressively investigate potential recalls? Sure they could and it would make sense for them to do that because the dealer would do them, for free. But it isn't and has never been required. The facts are, recalls have nothing to do with the aftermarket be it sales or service. To shove a camera in someones face who isn't doing anything wrong, and is operating in an ordinary fashion was nothing more than disgusting sensationalism. Besides, the O.E.s get notified of the title transfers and send out a new recall notice to the new owners. None of those recalls were such big issues that the O.E was able to force the original owner to park the car until it got fixed was it?

    The only thing that Jeff proved is that the guys didn't know that they could get something done to the cars that they had on their lots for free at the dealership. He didn't actually prove that any of the cars were "dangerous" as he stated. His "story" looks like dealers paid to have an attack done on some little guys to try and back handedly improve their perceptions to the public. Nothing more, nothing less, JMHO.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 1,562
    While I didn't get in to specifics like you did, my over the internet (and at GREAT arm's length {read, disadvantaged}) ideas were not that out to lunch then. At least not to the degree that you first dismissed them.

    It looks like you don't like getting treated exactly the way a tech would be if he/she made any of the following assumptions. I'm not picking on you here, I'm simply making an example of why your statemets aren't as correct as you might think they were, and how you would get to learn from this if you had actually had to deal with it from a techs perspective.

    From your response;

    I'm gonna go with a bad connection on a rear wheel speed sensor assoc with stability control.

    Then why wasn't there a code for that circuit in the TCM? Why didn't the transmission downshift falsely?

    Probably a ground somewhere assc with that wheel..and sharing enough similar circuitry with other circuits..maybe a shift out of park interlock connection which could fire the locks trying to lock, and of course the ABS light is assoc with stab control, and maybe even also when slipping it outta park.

    If you lose a ground connection, you will have a measurable voltage drop occurring across it. That potential voltage raises the voltage on the associated circuits and would cause communication trouble codes to set in multiple modules. There weren't any.

    If you take the time to look up theory of operation, you would see that the shift interlocks require brake pedal as well as transmisison range sensor inputs and those are cross checked with other inputs for rationality. All easily ruled out by the evidence at hand. There were no codes to support those assumptions in any modules.

    The fuel gauge momentary dump is a mystery,

    Not at all, in fact its one of the primary clues to the source of the failure. again it takes training and experience to see the difference. The modules involved in the fuel gage information are the PCM, which the fuel sender attaches to, the BCM (gateway) and the instrument cluster.

    altho the flashing lo fuel light is not..it will be part of whatever caused the gauge to slip past that point which would trigger the light.

    This is correct.

    I do know that simple (ya right..said with sarcasm) ground issues almost anywhere on the vehicle, can cause a myriad of other systems to light up and misbehave, cuz the current is still there, but looking for a weaker track to take..

    With solid electronics training, you would learn that "the path of least resistance" doesn't apply to problems like this. In a parrallel circuit, the voltage is applied equally to all of the branches. The current flow through each branch is limited by the circuits resistance. The total circuit current flow will be the sum of all of the branches. When you add an extra resistance to one of the branches, you simply create another voltage drop in that branch and reduce its current flow. That voltage potential is a measurable commodity that the modules would actually code for.

    And even Steve's ECU comment was skirting the edges even if by a little

    In our world, that still means he failed and you have a dissapointed customer. Guesses will get you fired in a very short period of time.

    Still would like to know the REST of the story...the fuel gauge dumping momentarily. PCM was behind that too then? But where was the common trail in that respect?

    Yes the PCM caused the fuel gage issue, as I explained in the other response. This example is just one of thousands that techs have had to solve and hats off to James A. for sharing it. When he posted it, I shuddered at the thought of having to deal with a list of symptoms as he described. We challenge each other with these kinds of tests in order to train ourselves beyond what anyone else could ever do for us and have been doing it for more than a decade. I had to re-write hs description about four times before I started to make the associations in my mind, and then combining that with the system theories from service information started to deduce the source of the failure. Even when I came down to the PCM, I had doubts and was concerned that I had missed a detail and had to wait until Jim posted his routine to confirm what I thought was wrong.

    Now in order to prove that the computer needed to be replaced, as a shop owner if you were my tech, I'd require you to give me a minimum of two solid diagnostic solutions that both arrived at the same answer. Nothing that either you or Steve posted amounted to even one solid routine. I'd never try to sell that part to a customer based on either of your responses. Would you have? :shades:
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    Nice of them to go after the little tinnie wienne one owner/one salesman car lots. :sick:

    There are very few recalls that are,"stop driving car immediately and have it towed in to dealership." Most are of the ,"could be potentially dangerous" variety. So I doubt there were any real immediate safty concerns there.

    From a liability standpoint it would probably be wise for lot owner to check for recalls (though legally they dont have to). then drive them in for free repair. Or after all the papers are signed presenting recall notice and telling buyer to take it to dealership to have the tail-light replaced. :lemon:

    I had my 1999 Buick Regal (bought in 2004), for about 3 or 4 years before I got a recall notice for something on the spark plug that could catch fire. I had in to dealership 3 or 4 times for oil changes after that... they never said a word about it. Was expecting them to... thought it would be a good chance to sell me a tune-up. Still smoke free when I got rid of it a year ago.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Would you have?

    No, of course not! But were you actually expecting to find a tech here on this forum to come up with the right answer in a moment's notice? If you did, then you were assuming there might be a lurker here as experienced as you are and we all know that while that is entirely possible, it is still unlikely..

    In any event, I just took a stab for the hell of it, just like Steve did. I did no Google searches to help me get closer I merely took my (admittedly very limited skills..at least in that regard,...I do find electronics challenging...when I fix a circuit board in a VCR at home..I do it visually...oh look, a burned resistor or cap..I know enough to wear a grd dstrap top my wrist to help save sensitive chips from static high charges etc but...) limited skills at spur of the moment and had fun with it.

    If you will recall in my past posts..I have never been one to trivialize your skills..in fact I have defended them..

    Also in my defense, I did not elaborate as much as I could have...when I talked about slipping it outta park, in fact, in my brain at the time I meant getting up to that 10 to 12 mph speed that often triggers locks, so the speed sensor and tranny would have been alerted..but yes, I did not say that. And while I kept using the term 'ground' I also almost went back to edit, but didn't..that not just grd but any poor connection can be suspect.

    But for sure, I am the first to admit I can't do what you do. Sure wish I could apprentice tho a few hours each day. That's all my back and knees can take now :(
    I would frig love to be able to pick up some of your troubleshooting skills. I posed an electric question over in the diesel forum that I'll bet you might have an opinion about..probably should have posted it here..my generator is going into overload mode when asked to power something it probably should be fine with..
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 1,562
    edited March 2013
    Fortunately here we can do exercises like this all in fun, and just play with what the consequences for a bad approach might be. Imagine taking a legitimate approach to a real problem and be treated like dirt by someone who really didn't know that they were out of line.

    I'm gonna take you back to late 1985. 84 Chevrolet Citation, 2.5l. The car was losing its injector pulse after it was running for a while. For the igniton, the system used the pick-up coil, but the injectors were triggered by a hall effect switch. To diagnose one of these, I would connect a DVOM to the hall effect output at the PCM and monitor the frequency of the signal. Plus I would attach my propane enrichment tool to the engine so that when it cut out I could provide my own fuel source and keep it running while I made the rest of my checks. BTW, we didn't get paid any diagnostic time back then. It was still like we were just supposed to know what the problem was.

    After confirming that the hall effect was bad, the service manager tried to sell the job. The customer insisted on talking to me and wanted to know how I knew the part was bad, and how it worked. So I explained it to him, and the look on his face was priceless. He admitted afterwards that he was sure that I was just guessing, because there was no way in his opinion that I knew anything about electronics at that level. He fixed TV's for a living, so he had a good background in electronics but I was "just a mechanic". Today that hall effect sensor failure would be the exact kind of thing you could google and find and be comfortable throwing the part at the car. They were a known issue, and the service manager even said afterwards that he was glad it was me doing that car instead of anyone else in the shop because I was the only one in the shop with a degree in electronics and could hold my own in that conversation. So please don't think I am being rough on you, what we are doing here is nothing compared to what techs have to deal with needlessly.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 1,562
    I would frig love to be able to pick up some of your troubleshooting skills. I posed an electric question over in the diesel forum that I'll bet you might have an opinion about..probably should have posted it here..my generator is going into overload mode when asked to power something it probably should be fine with..

    Trust me, the skills you are seeing have been very hard earned, and many times unappreciated. IMO.

    Did you get a solution yet? If not post it up and I'll walk you through what you need to do.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 1,562
    Nice of them to go after the little tinnie wienne one owner/one salesman car lots.

    I wonder how foolish Jeff would look if we could surprise him with a camera crew and ask him why his story was so biased when he wasn't ready for it.
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    There's a classic comedy video Steve Martin did years ago in which he did the "60 Minutes" thing to Mike Wallace and Morley Safer, investigating them...

    I believe it's on this ...

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0336189/
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,780
    I've had more than one run-in with the media and-with a few notable exceptions-I have found their guiding tenet to be:

    "Never let the facts get in the way of a good story."

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,694
    That's especially true when you read any science story--by the time the media reports the results of a scientific study, it bears little resemblance to the original research.

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  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 1,562
    http://www.searchautoparts.com/motorage/news-service-repair/aaia-and-ase-recogni- ze-world-class-technicians?cid=95883

    This article came out this week announcing the names of these techs who have been recognized for passing twenty-two ASE certification exams. It touched off a bit of a debate in the iATN about just how relevant the ASE and even the iATN are inside our trade and it parallels what you can see inside this very thread. Gimmestdtranny probably felt like I was roughing him up a bit for trying to solve that diagnostic on that Silverado, and it probably did come off that way when that really wasn't the intent. Roadburner has made a couple posts that I took as degrading to techs and when I questioned what his background was I felt that he thought that he was beyond such scrutiny. There is a double standard at play here, and it mirrors what it is like to be a professional technician. Gimmestdtranny clearly noticed it as he pointed out that he felt he had to defend me and I thank him for that, but it really shouldn't be that way.

    I find people question my capabilities as a technician on a daily basis, I'm just supposed to accept and deal with it. It's always been that way and that of course isn't something that I personally deal with as good as I should. The funny thing is, the lack of being good at that kind of situation is the very thing that drives me to study all of the time, with the expectation that I should eventually rise above having to deal with that. You can call that one of those situations where my greatest weakness is also my greatest strength.

    So where do I stand, next to those 1863 individuals through the years who have sat down to prove their knowledge. I have ten, all of the automotive A-1 through A-8 to be recognized as an ASE Master Tech. I have had those and stayed current with them since 1982. Plus I have the A9 Automotive Diesel, and the L1 advanced diagnostics. What they have that I don't is the Heavy Duty truck series of tests, and its not a matter of if I can pass them or not, I have no interest in trying to prove that I might be able to pass a test on work that I don't do. Does that make me less of a technician in regards to the work that I do? It shouldn't. But yet when we had the debates about the correct way to address even the dreaded evaporative system leak, suddenly it was like all of the experience and study and training that I have had no value when pitted against an opinion. I actually expect to see debates like that try and play the price angle and of course that happened here as if that really has anything to do with whether a leak is a frozen vent valve, or a loose gas cap. But seriously, it's like that everyday anyway and even when we are right, someone else is sure we are wrong and they don't even have to prove that they can change a flat tire prior to them proclaiming their competence.

    There will be a price to be paid someday for the biases against the trade. We haven't been able to attract the people that you need us to have in order to replace our aging work force for a long time. Even if we could fix that part today, it would still be some twenty years for anyone who comes in now to really be competent to the level that the consumer demands.
    For anyone that reads this, that last statement is meant to be a blast of reality.

    If you believe you would make a competent technician and have faith and trust on your present capabilities, but have not and especially are not presently working as a technician. Then you really are about twenty years short of the hard work and study that it takes to be a master technician that the consumer demands. It's not about any successes that you may have under your belt, in this trade you are only judged by your latest failure, even if you then managed to overcome it. You can only be good at limiting the failures, with genuine shop experience over a long period of time.

    I was talking to a salesperson from one of the parts chains. She was telling me her sales to shops are really down since last year and she had taken some time to try and find out why. Two guys had passed away, and of course their shops were now gone. Four more simply went out of business, and she had two others who were struggling to pay their bills and on the verge of failing even though they have cars all over their lots. This is a story that is being repeated in a lot of places. In a lot of the cases the biggest problem is the shop owners need to get some management training, and that would result in them getting their techs more training and they would then get more of those cars and their businesses moving. The problem is I think these guys are all just simply burning out and are quitting fighting. That's something that consumers should actually be worried about. There is no one to replace these people and even the ones who are struggling are a lot better than you probably think they are. JMHO
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,694
    "She was telling me her sales to shops are really down since last year and she had taken some time to try and find out why."

    My Two Cents on that:

    1. The internet

    2. Very bad chain store in-store service, from my experience. If you want to be waited on or helped at my local "X" chain store, it would be a good idea to slit your wrists and bleed on the floor---that *might* attract a sales clerk.

    3. Depressed local economy

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,467
    >3. Depressed local economy

    That is likely a big factor along with the chain store and internet helping diagnose/misdiagnose problems. A cNBC guest was showing how the indicators were showing we are sliding into a recession. At the same time the government is doing what most have done and are trying to jawbone the public into thinking the recession(s) have ended; the "reliable media" also is doing that.

    But Mainstreet and flyover country here in Ohio have other signs to think about. I see more and more ratty cars being driven and not traded or repaired. They are just being kept running. Used cars are more expensive. New cars are more expensive and hard to get loans for purchase by many folks with no jobs.

    The cardoc needs to adjust his business expectations to those realities of the economy in the real world.
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    Roadburner has made a couple posts that I took as degrading to techs and when I questioned what his background

    I never thought roadburner made any degrading remarks to techs or you. I've been reading his posts for 8 years, and I've always found him to be an informed and respectable poster. Not everyone is going to agree with you, despite your extensive history in automotive repair. I think a lot of times people aren't "questioning your capabilities as a technician"... they are just questioning in search why something is being done, or just simply giving their viewpoint. Maybe, we are a good group to take some of that anger and frustration out on... from having to deal with rude/obnoxious customers at your shop? But, as far as I can tell, were just a lot of shade tree mechanics, so try to keep that in mind. :)

    You certainly have a lot to be proud of owning and operating your own business, but sometimes you come across as "too good and experienced to be questioned". And I think that ends up hurting you when trying to teach/inform. The calm and rationale approach is usually when the message will finally be heard. If you come on too strong against another posters statements or opinion... they will become defensive. A few of us have been the same with you. :blush:

    Things seemed to have smoothed out the past couple of weeks. Hope you continue to post here for a long time. I find you postings very informative and insightful into the true behind the scenes look at auto rapair. :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,694
    well there may be pent-up demand for new cars coming up very soon, which may be more bad news for chain stores. Part of this so-called 'recession' is very odd, because many corporations are sitting on huge sums of cash from record profits, but they are not inclined to spend it on anything.

    If jobs aren't created, and if americans are paying off more and more debt (which they seem to be), then car repairs will slump except for necessities.

    And yet, a lot of this is "local"---the specialty repair shops I know are busy busy busy.

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  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    I find people question my capabilities as a technician on a daily basis, I'm just supposed to accept and deal with it. It's always been that way and that of course isn't something that I personally deal with as good as I should. The funny thing is, the lack of being good at that kind of situation is the very thing that drives me to study all of the time, with the expectation that I should eventually rise above having to deal with that. You can call that one of those situations where my greatest weakness is also my greatest strength.

    I can relate to this, doc. I used to get looked down upon for being just a truck driver. But what many of those who (mis)-judged me don't know is that because of my skills, I saved their pathetic, incompetent-behind-the-wheel, lives every day. And they assumed that truck drivers, are illiterate, dirty, mannerless, ignorant, chain-hanging wallet types who are beneath them. Little did they know that in addition to driving heavy truck, I could wring their sorry asses inside out on two wheels on a race track, fix a wiring issue at their cottage on the w/e, find a short they had in their boat on the same w/e, teach them a thing or two about English and even enhance their knowledge base by introducing them to the world of proper etiquette at the dinner table. My particular personality and skills/aptitude sets, are so not average. I am extremely difficult to 'slot'. But people are not comfortable if they can't slot you. And many can only feel higher or better about themselves by stepping on others to attain that perch.
    IMO, to yourself..just tell them all to just flock right off..THEIR OPINION DOESN'T MATTER ONE BIT!

    The funny thing is, the lack of being good at that kind of situation is the very thing that drives me to study all of the time, with the expectation that I should eventually rise above having to deal with that.

    Well..if you want to study so that you can be just as good as you possibly can be at your trade, fine...but make sure you are doing it FOR YOU, (and your family) (and make you that much more competent a teacher) but not for the wasted efforts of trying to convince these low-life (read, ignorant self-righteous) no-minds, that you deserve more respect and recognition than you are getting. To this type of judgemental personality, is like a deep dark hole and you will never satisfy them nor fill that hole. In their world, ignorance is bliss.

    I'm thinking that maybe it is time for you to slow down a little (in terms of keeping up on the constant investment of new current tools). The entire system has been strategically trying (and unfortunately with success) to get the industry in such a way that all vehicles come home to momma for repairs. And there is proof that many of the best techs they had, got fed up with the crap and left to open their own shops. You are one of them..So technically this leaves them with 2nd best techs, working in-house on home product, and when faced with a problem that quickly stumps them, the two tools they quickly reach for are the PC email program and the phone, relying totally on some execution engineer overseas while trying to troubleshoot the problem. And you are fighting a losing battle I think, doc. There are DEEEEEP pockets in that industry, and that is what you'r up against...proven by the 'annual rental fees of 1700+ bucks every year' or suffer the tool being turned off. And the shyte in the face is that...that is on top of exorbitantly high purchase fees in the first place. This is how they handle the loss of business by indy shops. They figure if they can't keep ya in-house (and not really acknowledging that their greed being at the root of problem for you leaving) then they will ensure they have a means that you will pay one way or the other for the tech needed to work on their cars.

    If you stay in it (meaning also if you stay in it as an up-to-date-always-current-tech-shop) then the way to mitigate these huge robberies for the licensed tech tool$, would be to special in in one or two makes only. This way, your brain stays challenged..and it is pretty obvious that your personality is one that needs to be constantly stimulated or challenged, but then you could also continue to work on earlier less technical vehicles for years to come. I think we are in for some hard times still as for any form of long-lasting economic comeback and people are keeping older vehicles on the road longer and longer. We can thank, in part, the advances in oils and more widespread use of galvanized metals for this..

    Life is short..don't use it up and destroy your body and lungs on those who don't appreciate it..and all the while also not having as much at home quality-time either. Given that you have stayed right on top of current tech, obviously you might have to ramp down a bit at first due to assumed outstanding loans still on some of this equipment. But the clock is ticking...if you don't start ramping down sometime, then when? Hell...just get a full time teaching job..and get paid for it!
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    What a good, right-on post, jipster. I think you managed to say a lot of what I was trying to above..except that brevity is far my strong suit..

    I especially agree with:

    Maybe, we are a good group to take some of that anger and frustration out on... from having to deal with rude/obnoxious customers at your shop? But, as far as I can tell, were just a lot of shade tree mechanics, so try to keep that in mind.

    And:

    You certainly have a lot to be proud of owning and operating your own business, but sometimes you come across as "too good and experienced to be questioned". And I think that ends up hurting you when trying to teach/inform. The calm and rationale approach is usually when the message will finally be heard. If you come on too strong against another posters statements or opinion... they will become defensive. A few of us have been the same with you.

    And:

    Hope you continue to post here for a long time. I find you postings very informative and insightful into the true behind the scenes look at auto rapair.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 34,189
    edited March 2013
    It really depends on where you are. In my area, indy shops seem to be surviving just fine, some too much so - my favored MB shop is on indefinite hiatus - the workload became too much and the owner couldn't find shop space, so he is simply taking a break to rest (often putting in 6x12s) and reorganize, rather than facing what was becoming an infinite backlog of customers. He simply didn't have enough bays and workers. Lack of business didn't get him, too much business created problems. Luckily, there is no shortage of shops here, so I still have a place that won't turn away my old car.

    This is indeed not a legitimate "recession", it is more along the lines of the result of years of unchecked thievery and unethical actions by corporations who control both parties. We need some "use it or lose it" style financial regulations, where the gold is "encouraged" to be put to work.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,694
    It is a bizarre "recession"--if you look at restaurants, malls, theaters, ball parks, auto races, big box stores---people are spending money like crazy. Do you see soup lines and people sleeping under all the bridges in your town? Aside from the straggler here and there, I sure don't. The SF Bay Area seems to be booming, but inland, not so good.

    So Americans must be allocating their spending in very specific ways, so that some industries feel it and some don't.

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  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Do you see soup lines and people sleeping under all the bridges in your town? Aside from the straggler here and there, I sure don't.

    That comes after..
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,694
    edited March 2013
    oh the imaginary upcoming dystopia that keeps being predicted but never happens. :P

    The American economy has tremendous horsepower and resiliency. If you look closely at historical records of even the most dire economic events, like the Great Recession, in some part of America it was very short-lived, less than a year.

    Depends a lot on which window in which part of the country you are looking out of.

    I don't see depression but I do see continued migration.

    Detroit was once the 5th largest city in the USA, and it's losing population at a raging clip. But those people are finding work elsewhere, most of 'em.

    Same holds true for the auto repair industry. It is no coincidence that the two newest techs in my friend's business are from back East.

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  • fintailfintail Posts: 34,189
    edited March 2013
    There does seem to be no shortage of panhandlers out there - but that can be hard to explain. But, housing is stabilizing here, employment isn't collapsing - there is some resiliency to the economy even when the multinationals and coddled "job creators" do everything they can go push us towards the bottom for their dream exploitation scenario. People are still buying new and used cars, still patronizing mechanics, life goes on. It might be regional, but there has never been a time when every region was prosperous. Cities on the coasts seem to be faring OK right now.

    And yeah, the doomers are pretty funny - their dream of a breakdown when everyone is using old silver coins for trade and somehow the entire global financial system collapses and disappears isn't going to happen.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    oh the imaginary upcoming dystopia that keeps being predicted but never happens.

    Well..I certainly don't hope... or as fintail, suggests..dream about it happening! Geeez for the love of God guys..

    But I have investments that have taken a frig HUGE HUGE HUGE hit and the slightest bad news reported, causes me very really financial loss. I ain't dreamin' about it.. :sick:

    I also don't live with my head buried in the sand...

    It would seem that you guys (perhaps all Americans?) have a LOT of faith in Germany keeping everything together in EU. Cuz if it weren't for them, we'd be feeling it even more here and this..IMO, false sense of recovery you both seem to be relying on might crumble upon its very questionable foundation its going forward upon. Is there any other nation on EARTH that owes more money than you guys?????????????????????????????? Selling out to allow more Chinese ownership here, is not solving things at a rate that could be considered comfortably managed and worry-free..again..IM maybe not so HO this time.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited March 2013
    And yeah, the doomers are pretty funny - their dream of a breakdown/ SNIP!!!

    total frig edit..probably too defensive, and certainly off the thread named topic
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 1,562
    total frig edit..probably too defensive, and certainly off the thread named topic

    Hey, I'm all for more Gasoline Alley than Wall Street too.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 34,189
    edited March 2013
    Well, to begin with, I don't know if someone in Canada can be so critical - without the American economy and sleeping next to the elephant, things wouldn't be so rosy. Importing crooked second world wealth can only grow your economy for so long - some of what is flitting around Van and 416 is despicable. Is any housing market in the first world due for a correction that will handicap the overall national economy as much as Canada's?????? Just lagging behind the slumbering beast to the south. I don't know why Canadians have a LOT of faith in their own different-but-same system, as it is so dependent on others. Hope and pray that the American recovery is real, for the good of Canada. We're in this together.

    The EU is something of a mirage, and it won't last forever. And it won't destroy the world when the lie is brought down.

    I worry more about our "ally" Israel starting a global disaster than China. They need us more than we need them.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,694
    I remember years ago when all the 'experts' were telling us that a globally linked economy would not be subject to roller coasters ups and down---it would be far more stable------HAH!

    The auto industry is very sensitive to the slightest ripples in the economy, it's true. Even wild rumor is enough to set it off.

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