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The Current State of the US Auto Market

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  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,776
    Sorry but I feel compelled to refute your post. FACT: If the US sold all 300M
    shares of GM stock today it would amount to about $10B leaving about $10B still owed. That would mean they would have paid back about 80% of the bailout.


    You're forgetting the years of income tax breaks the Feds are giving GM.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,343
    How could anything be worse than the Aveo and Caliber?

    Do you remember the Dodge Neon? Complete utter trash.

    I feel violated that they were legally allowed to sell those :lemon: here in the USA.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,401
    In this case, the lifters were telling a huge story as opposed to "noise". ;)
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,149
    P.S. I really like those Ram trucks and would take one over a Toyota that needs a new frame every 10 years.

    Oddly enough, my uncle, who went with me when I bought the Ram (we used his '97 Silverado as a trade in), said that if the Dodge dealer pissed me off, let's go look at the Toyotas!

    The construction company he used to work for used to buy Toyotas for their light-duty trucks...stuff like the old T-100 and first-gen Tundra. They tended to have good luck with them. When that company got bought out, around 2007, they sold off a lot of their inventory fairly cheap, and he considered buying one of their Tundras, but didn't have the money at the time.

    I do prefer the Ram over the Tundra, but I don't really see anything wrong with the Tundra. But, whoever thought the day would come that a Dodge would have a less plasticky looking interior than its Toyota competition! :P
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,182
    edited March 2013
    A good friend of mine who was a former GMC/Buick service manager has one of the first Tundras from 07', will be curious if he really needs a frame in 4 years like you claim... :sick:

    Btw, care to explain your theory for these trucks?

    link title

    Hmm, checked the carfax on a bunch of these and didn't anything regarding frame replacement and these are 10 years old... :confuse:

    925 more = misprint?
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,653
    I do prefer the Ram over the Tundra, but I don't really see anything wrong with the Tundra. But, whoever thought the day would come that a Dodge would have a less plasticky looking interior than its Toyota competition!

    When the current Tundra was introduced 6 or so years ago it was an impressive truck. But since then Ford and Ram have gone through several updates. I really like the Ram.

    I'm going to buy something in the next year or so. I'll look at the new Suburban and updated Expedition again. I really like the Durango, but it's a bit small for us. As for pickups it's a toss up. I'll checkout the new Silverado too.

    Last night on TV our local Ford dealer had a commercial for up to $9k off of f150 SuperCrews. That almost makes me want to go buy one now;)
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    Sorry but I feel compelled to refute your post. FACT: If the US sold all 300M
    shares of GM stock today it would amount to about $10B leaving about $10B still owed. That would mean they would have paid back about 80% of the bailout.

    Incidentally that $10B is about what our government borrows in 2-1/2 days, and what it spends in 1 day.


    It never ceases to amaze me why apologists always like to quote some totally unrelated number to justify their aim.

    "We could feed X number of people for a year for what we spend on FAA Air Traffic Control daily".

    Totally unrelated numbers, and the conclusion is just as meaningless.
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    A fellow down the street bought a new Tundra 4-5 years ago. He had been pining for a year for a new Chevrolet truck, but he said the dealership treated him like crap, and he was extremely skeptical about having them do any service work if it became necessary. He said they acted as if he had no alternatives in vehicles. They were wrong.

    He went to the Toyota dealership and came home with a Tundra, fully loaded. AFAIK, he's had zero problems with his Tundra, and really likes it.

    Just one example, but it shows how a poor dealer experience can run off sales.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I wonder what % of the frames had that issue.

    FWIW Dana paid Toyota $25 million in a settlement since they supplied those frames.

    The interior on the Tundra does feel cheap and plasticky, though, especially for the price levels. The updated one looks better, but we'll see.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,653
    Sorry but I feel compelled to refute your post. FACT: If the US sold all 300M
    shares of GM stock today it would amount to about $10B leaving about $10B still owed. That would mean they would have paid back about 80% of the bailout.

    Incidentally that $10B is about what our government borrows in 2-1/2 days, and what it spends in 1 day.

    It never ceases to amaze me why apologists always like to quote some totally unrelated number to justify their aim.

    "We could feed X number of people for a year for what we spend on FAA Air Traffic Control daily".

    Totally unrelated numbers, and the conclusion is just as meaningless.


    I agree 100%.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,653
    I wonder what % of the frames had that issue.

    FWIW Dana paid Toyota $25 million in a settlement since they supplied those frames.


    Also, wasn't that related to the Tacoma?

    Anyway, I have a good friend who's owned 3 Tacomas consecutively and hasn't had an issue with any of them.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    (ex: very few brands still make minivans).

    Huh? Only Ford doesn't make minivans.....

    Uplander (Upchucker to me) GM
    Caravan - Town & Country (Fiat)
    Quest (Nissan-Renault)
    Sienna (Toyota)
    Odyssey (Honda)
    Sedona (Kia/Hyundai)
    CX-5 (Mazda)
    R-350 (Benz)
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    The new Malibu wasn't even close to its competitors in sales numbers. It's really hard to see how GM survives much longer.

    AND, Malibu sales are heavily weighted to fleet/rental sales.

    GM won't survive without more Gov't help. Only the Buick in China will give them some longevity, but they'll continue to bleed in the US.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,149
    A couple years back, my uncle got his '97 Silverado stuck in the mud, and we used my old '85 to pull it out. When I crawled under his '97 to find someplace to attach the chain, I was a bit disturbed about how badly it seemed to be rusting. I think it was only a matter of time before something major let loose on that truck.

    My '85 in contrast, looks pretty bad because the rocker panels and lower doors are starting to rust pretty bad, as well as around the rear wheel openings. But, underneath where it counts, it still seems pretty solid.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited March 2013
    Uplander is long gone, Traverse is a crossover.

    Sedona is also out of production. I'd like to see the KV7 concept reach production, though.

    CX5? Oh, you probably meant the Mazda5. Yeah, that's a vanlet I guess, but very small, and only seats 4+2.

    R350 doesn't have sliding doors

    So really just 4 options. I consider Grand Caravan/Town & Country/Routan just one set of clones.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Trucks are abused a lot, plus they're the vehicles out there in the snow when the roads are treated with salt.

    Having said that, it was easy to find plenty of trucks with 250k miles plus, without any effort actually, so they're still quite durable.
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    I totally agree.

    Since 1974, I've owned Ford, GM, Dodge, Toyota and Mitsubishi trucks.

    Living in the South probably has influence, but I've never experience frame rust on any of the trucks I've owned.

    In fact, looking back over all those vehicles, not a single one ever left me stranded, and most of them never had any significant drivability issues, although some of them did experience other problems, none of them being severe.

    Maybe I have just been extremely lucky...
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,149
    One thing that's been rough on our two trucks, is that they've tended to sit around a lot, and often just parked on the grass. That will take its toll over time.

    My '85 Silverado was bought new, by my Granddad, that summer. It got used quite a bit, until he got sick in late 1989, and then passed away in 1990. After that, it tended to sit around a lot. My uncle would drive it every once in awhile, and so would my grandmother. I was living with her at the time, and I'd take it to college about once a week. But, since it didn't get used all that often, we tended to park it out of the way, off the driveway and on the grass.

    Grandmom gave it to my Mom and stepdad around 1994 or 1995. They didn't use it much, but would put it into service towing their boat, hauling hay, stuff to the dump, etc. And again, since they didn't use it all that much, they'd often park it out of the way...and on the grass.

    Mom sold it to me in late 2002, and at that point it only had about 109,000 miles on it. And, by then, it was starting to rust. I lived in a condo back then, and would usually park it out on the street. At least it was on pavement, but it was against a curb. Sometimes it would be back at my grandmother's house though, and again, on the grass. When I moved into the house, it didn't have much of a driveway, so again, the truck was often on the grass, until I had my garage built in 2005, and a large gravel driveway put in in early 2006. Nowadays, the truck is at least on the gravel, but the years have taken their toll. It's up to around 139,500 miles, and the drivetrain is running strong, so I'm guessing it'll be rust that sends it to its grave.

    As for my uncle's '97 Silverado, it was his main source of transportation until 2002, when he bought an early 2003 Corolla. I forget how many miles it had on it when it got demoted to "second vehicle" status, but I do remember the second transmission rebuild was around 108,000 miles. :blush: Oh, and he had a bad habit of parking it on the grass, as well. It was up to around 140,000 miles when we traded it on the Ram. I let him use the Ram...bought it partly for him, sort of to serve double duty in replacing his truck, but giving me something to drive as well. I've just told him to keep it off the damn grass! :P
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    I agree with you. Over the years, I've probably seen a couple hundred of what should have been nicely preserved older model cars from the 30's-60's, parked in dirt-floored barns. Almost without exception, the floorboards were rusted (sometimes completely through) because there wasn't any vapor barrier.

    Sadly, if they had simply parked those cars on top of a $10 6-mil layer of polyethylene, placed out on top of he dirt floor before the cars were parked long term, the cars would have been in much better shape.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,343
    You mean saying My neighbor "A" owns a business that loses only 100,000 dollars a year, while pointing out neighbor "B" owns a business that loses 10,000,000,000 similar to GM, and then pointing out I have a neighbor "C" that owns a business that loses 5 times that amount (50 billion) isn't a good argument for why neighbor B runs a great business?

    :P :P ;) ;)
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,548
    Huh? Only Ford doesn't make minivans.....

    Uplander (Upchucker to me) GM


    As ateixera pointed out, it's been gone for five model years. Stop by a Chevy dealer often? ;)
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,343
    As ateixera pointed out, it's been gone for five model years. Stop by a Chevy dealer often

    Perhaps the one's that didn't go to fleets took that long to sell off, and there were some sitting at dealers? ;)
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,548
    I had an Uplander once as a rental (besides owning one). On the other hand, I've had many a Toyota rental.
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    You mean saying My neighbor "A" owns a business that loses only 100,000 dollars a year, while pointing out neighbor "B" owns a business that loses 10,000,000,000 similar to GM, and then pointing out I have a neighbor "C" that owns a business that loses 5 times that amount (50 billion) isn't a good argument for why neighbor B runs a great business?

    By golly, I think you've got it!

    I know, it always works for me when I get pulled for speeding...

    "Why, yes, officer. I was doing 60 in a 25 mph zone, but there are drivers on the Interstate running 90-100mph, so you should excuse me and go after them!".

    Works every time...NOT!!!
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,548
    Looks like GM has a few frame issues as well...

    I think it's fairly obvious that numbers come into play here. GM (and Ford and Chrysler) had sold many, many, many more trucks than Toyota, yet Toyota had the issue enough that it became a large issue for them...and not the others.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,776
    I think it's fairly obvious that numbers come into play here. GM (and Ford and Chrysler) had sold many, many, many more trucks than Toyota, yet Toyota had the issue enough that it became a large issue for them...and not the others.

    Agreed. Sort of like all the talk of Honda trannys and Toyota sludge - issues that were big for those brands, but long in the past and noteworthy mainly because of those brands' high reliability. When GM or C have tranny failures, it's not even news...

    Somebody just posted about a second tranny rebuild on a truck (I believe it was a Chrysler) in ~110K miles. I've driven six different cars I've owned to over 100K, two of them over 200K miles. Honda, Acura, VW, Mazda, Toyota, Mercury. I've NEVER had a transmission repair in any of them. None of them were US-nameplate trannys, even the Mercury Villager (Nissan engine/tranny).
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    And, I agree.

    Every model has its weakest point, and folks prone to make a point at any cost can always find ammo on the Internet to prove their point.

    Like I stated in an earlier posting, since the mid 70's, I've owned every domestic brand pickup truck, along with a few imports. I've never had any issue with frame rust.

    Tacomas had a higher incidence of rust, due to inferior materials provided by a sub-supplier (which accepted responsibility for the inferior product).

    The problem of inferior quality subsystem components can happen to any manufacturer.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Stop by a Chevy dealer often?

    Obviously, I NEVER stop by a Chevy dealer...... Ever.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 394
    A big factor in the frames rusting is that it seems most trucks still don't have rustproofing on them from the factory ( or at least they didn't as re entry as ten years ago), where cars have had rustproofing pretty much figured out for a while now, I think due to the thicker metal that used to be used on tricks ( and probably still is on the frames etc. ) that it wasn't as apparent until the damage went too far ( the old Japanese trucks were as bad as the old Japanese cars up here, they rusted away just looking at them, the power trains on the other hand were pretty much indestructible). I haven't looked at recent trucks so don't know if they have rustproofing now or not.
This discussion has been closed.