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The Current State of the US Auto Market

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Comments

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited October 2013
    GM needs to 'Get with the times", don't you think?

    The '13 Malibu wasn't even rated by CR and yet sales suffered.

    Could it be other midsized cars are that much better regardless of CR's rating? I ask because I really don't know!
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited October 2013
    It actually tested better in CR than other much-ballyhooed cars here. But you remember that discussion we had here. You wrote that it was "not recommended" (nice parsing of words there).

    I don't long to jump on any popularity bandwagon--as lemko said, then McDonald's hamburgers must be the best out there. ;)

    But what do I know? If I could go back, I'd buy a new '64 Studebaker.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I don't long to jump on any popularity bandwagon--as lemko said, then McDonald's hamburgers must be the best out there.

    Hey, those Angus 1/3 pound burgers they used to sell were pretty good, I thought! But, like GM with the Northstar Allante, and the final year Fiero, as soon as they get it right, they discontinue it... :)
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    I never tried one of those Angus burgers at McD's! I like Five Guys burgers and fries around here, but my cheap nature keeps me from going there very often at all.

    I have to say, between Chick-Fil-A and Five Guys, I could probably live without every other fast food joint, but as I said, Five Guys is too expensive.

    I'll admit that out of convenience more than anything, and price, I too-often will eat a BK $1.00 burger, $1.00 fries, and senior drink. Total price? $2.76!
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    "The '13 Malibu wasn't even rated by CR and yet sales suffered.
    Could it be other midsized cars are that much better regardless of CR's rating? I ask because I really don't know!"

    We have a niece whose husband travels a lot for his job. Both congested city and long highway trips, as well as piling mileage on. His past several company cars were Camry's which he said were comfortable and worked out well for him. He changes cars about every 18 months because of mileage build up. A little over a year ago he got a new Malibu instead. He says it actually is a more comfortable cruiser and he prefers it. Hopes to get another one in a few months. Absolutely no issues so far, just like his previous Toyota's. I know consumers have different preferences, but I doubt he'd have this experience and preference if all Malibu's were crap. Personally, I had the previous gen Malibu as a vacation rental and found it a decent driver with very comfortable seats. My experience and opinion on that Malibu and talking to him about the current one is that we both agreed that the Toyota four banger is a little smoother, but the Malibu is quieter and more comfortable on long highway drives. I don't think there are many "bad" standard sedans on the market these days, which is good news for consumers.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    But, like GM with the Northstar Allante, and the final year Fiero, as soon as they get it right, they discontinue it...

    That's because by the time they get it right, they've trashed the name so much that no amount of improvements would save the perceptions.

    See how much better getting it right to start with would be?;)
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited October 2013
    tlong, you do realize that andre's examples were 20 and 25 years old, respectively?

    Guess I can still knock Kias built fifteen years after those GM examples then, correct?
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  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Even though it tested better, the sales suffered. The question still stands: Why didn't the Malibu sell well? Just because of the cramped back seat?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I think the main reason the 2013 Malibu didn't sell well is that GM botched the launch. Initially, only the ECO model was available, and I don't think the more mainstream models were offered until a few months later.

    It also seemed like there were a lot of 2012 models left over, at firesale prices, and that probably stole a lot of sales.

    I have yet to actually drive a 2013 Maiibu; so far I've only sat in them at auto shows, and in a showroom. Other than my issue with the back seat legroom, I found them to be fairly decent cars. The seats did seem pretty comfortable, and well-padded. And even though rear legroom is tight, I found the back seat itself to be comfortable. Provided the front-seat occupants are short enough, that is!
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    "I don't think there are many "bad" standard sedans on the market these days, which is good news for consumers."

    Not bad anymore, just some preferred a lot more than others.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited October 2013
    Bingo, as usual, andre. "Lousy launch" was a term I first saw used by Iacocca in his book, concerning the '82 J-cars and whatever the body code was for the Celebrity et al...meaning cars that did not sell well right out of the box.

    Putting only the Eco out first, in hindsight, was a dumb idea. And it is true there were outstanding prices on new '12 Malibus.

    I do find it perplexing that Hyundai reports the lamest rear-seat legroom in its class. Wouldn't they use the same way to measure as everybody else, knowing that published dimensions get used to compare with?

    I've said it before, but I was the first person I ever heard or saw comment on the '13 Malibu's rear-seat legroom. I noticed it immediately, compared to our '11, the very first time I looked inside one.

    Again, big sales are nice, but to use that to justify why someone should want one, is like high-school stuff to me. I tend to like stuff that not everybody else has or wants.

    I saw new '13 Malibu LS's advertised in the paper for $18,430 last week. Seems like a good value to me. Engine made in U.S., trans made in U.S., car assembled in U.S., great warranty, decent style.
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  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Again, big sales are nice, but to use that to justify why someone should want one, is like high-school stuff to me. I tend to like stuff that not everybody else has or wants.

    Then, the top auto manufacturers are in high school and companies like BMW, Mercedes have PhD's! Chevy didn't get out of grade school with the '13 'Bu.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Perhaps GM was trying to reduce low profit fleet sales and jacked up the price to rental agencies. In 2011, the Rentibu was at 39.1%. Will be interesting to see what the 2013 numbers look like when they are published but they could be somewhat less. But they could actually be making more money in the long run...

    They are playing the same strategy with the Impala which is why sales of those things have fallen yet the price has gone up considerably.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    tlong, you do realize that andre's examples were 20 and 25 years old, respectively?

    Guess I can still knock Kias built fifteen years after those GM examples then, correct?


    I suspect the reason people feel this way about GM is not the age of the incidents, but the pattern. They did it in the 70s, 80s, and 90's. The good news is that in the 00's they seem to have put out mediocre more than bad. That's progress, but have they extracted it from their DNA? A few years don't show full eradication, but it looks promising.

    OTOH, Kia has much shorter history and pattern, even though their cars were bad early on, also.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    "Lousy launch" was a term I first saw used by Iacocca in his book, concerning the '82 J-cars and whatever the body code was for the Celebrity et al...meaning cars that did not sell well right out of the box.

    Chrysler had a few lousy launches themselves back in those days, for varying reasons. I think the first was in 1974 when they redesigned their big cars, which hit the showroom at the same time as the first oil embargo. Big car sales in general tanked that year, but they must have lost a ton investing that much money on a new design, only to have it tank.

    The '76 Aspen/Volare was a bad launch as well. They were fairly popular, but not as popular as Chrysler had hoped. I think initially, the problem was that they had too many fully-optioned models on the lots, and not enough strippers. It was also competing with the Dart and Valiant on the sales lots that first year.

    The 1979 R-body (Newport, St. Regis, New Yorker) also wasn't a very good launch. Chrysler, like Ford, was two years behind GM in downsizing their big cars. Rather than come up with an all-new design, Chrysler just took the old midsized cars and gave them a heavy restyle. The midsize design was low-slung compared to the new GM B/C bodies and the Ford Panthers, so to still pack some big car room in there, they stretched out the wheelbase a bit. The cars also had a fairly heavy look about them, which probably didn't fly too well in fuel conscious times. And, by that time everybody knew about Chrysler's financial problems.

    The 1981 K-cars were initially a botched launch, as well. In this case, much of the problem, like the '76 Volare, was that they had too many well-equipped models on the lot, and not enough basic models, which is what a lot of people wanted during that time.

    I think that's what botched GM's launch of the J-car (Cavalier etc) and A-body (Celebrity et al), as well...too many optioned up models, not enough strippers. In the case of the Celebrity, it probably didn't help that GM was still selling the Malibu alongside. And, those first two years, the A-body wasn't a full lineup, offering only a sedan and coupe. If you wanted a midsize wagon, you had to go with the Malibu, Bonneville, Regal Estate, or Cutlass Cruiser, which were re-labled as the G-body.

    And then GM started botching other things because of poor timing. For instance, downsizing their full-sized cars a second time, as sales of big cars were beginning to take off again. The 1985 Grand Am, Calais, and Somerset Regal were original supposed to replace the Grand Prix, Cutlass Supreme, and Regal (dunno if there would have been a Monte Carlo version), but as those cars kept on selling fairly well, GM decided instead to market them as some sort of upscale Euro fighter, going so far as to pit the Grand Am against BMW!

    GM really got caught with their pants down when Ford launched the Taurus, and I don't know if they ever truly caught up in the midsized market. Even though Ford still sells a Taurus, and they try to pass it off as "full-size", I think today's Fusion and Malibu better represent the class of car that the likes of the 1986 Celebrity and Taurus have evolved into.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    To me, the reason the J-cars were a lousy launch was two-fold: One, they were expensive (my buddy priced a loaded 'Type 10' out at $9,100, ridiculous!) and with the 1.8, they were underpowered. The Celebrity was also expensive and an '82 medium-level CS, moderately equipped, was over $10K.

    In '83, GM reduced the prices of both lines of cars, and sales took off. They also made a 2.0 in the Cavalier which was an improvement.
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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    edited October 2013
    I just checked my old car book. Here's some pricing for 1982:

    Celebrity 4-door, 2.5 4-cyl: $8463
    Celebrity 4-door, 2.8 V-6: $8588 (72701 total Celebrity 4-doors sold)

    Malibu 4-door, 3.8 V-6: $8137
    Malibu 4-door, 4.4 V-8: $8207 (70793 total Malibu 4-door sold)

    Impala 4-door, 3.8 V-6: $7918
    Impala 4-door, 4.4 V-8: $7988 (47780 total Impala 4-doors sold)

    Caprice Classic 4-door, 3.8 V-6: $8367
    Caprice Classic 4-door, 4.4 V-8: $8437 (86126 total Caprice 4-doors sold)

    No wonder the Celebrity was such a poor seller, initially! A 4-cyl Celebrity started off slightly more expensive than a V-8 Caprice!

    I think it's also interesting what a small jump in price it was to go from the 3.8 (229, 231 in CA) V-6 to the 4.4 (267) V-8. I wish my book broke out V-6 versus V-8 production, but it doesn't.

    For 1983, there was a bigger jump in price to go from the V-6 to the V-8, but that year, the V-8 was a 305-4bbl, rather than the 267-2bbl. They're the same basic engine, so I wouldn't think a 305 should cost much, if anything more than a 267 to produce. But, I guess the 4-bbl carb would add cost, versus the 2-bbl.

    My grandparents had a 1982 Malibu Classic Estate wagon (technically, all Malibus were "Classics" in 1982), and I think it ended up costing around $11,000 out the door. Base price, according to my book, was only $8265. I sometimes wonder if my grandparents got ripped off with that car. It was a good looking car, but not all that well equipped. 229 V-6, crank windows, manual locks, nonpower seat. I'm pretty sure the automatic, power steering, and brakes were standard by then. I think it had cruise, tilt wheel, am/fm, but can't remember if it was stereo. definitely no 8-track or tape player. It had fake woodgrain, but just the regular hubcaps.

    When Grandmom discovered that the back windows didn't roll down, replaced with flip out vents, she was pretty mad. They bought the car in February of '82, and nobody even thought about rolling down a window until one hot day in April when I went to church with them and she sat in back for the first time. She occasionally referred to that thing as "The most expensive cheap car we've ever owned"
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sorry, my mix up with the Spark.

    Sonics sold here are made here, but I believe they also make then in Korea, and it was designed by the old Daewoo folks (now GMDAT).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    my question about the Juke

    It is ugly. Reliably ugly. You can always count on it remaining ugly.

    ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I saw new '13 Malibu LS's advertised in the paper for $18,430 last week. Seems like a good value to me.

    Without a doubt.

    I've seen new Sonata for $19k as well, probably cost the same as the 'bu once we add freight to the paper's ad price.

    But....both are now competing in the basement of their class. $19k is compact money, not mid-size. Can they make a profit with those sales? I wonder.

    A bargain for buyers, but bad for the manufacturer.

    Honda is selling Accord starting over $20 grand. They included standard alloys and backup cam, but they probably get 10% more money, and likely some actual profit.

    Meanwhile customers have a better ownership experience with the added content, probably better resale down the road, and those folks will likely be back for another Honda (if the CVT holds up).

    Everyone has a different strategy, I guess, but it would be nice to see the next Malibu aim a little higher, like the Impala did.

    Sonata is due for a redesign, while the 'bu has to soldier on for several years. You just don't want to rely on rebates all the time.

    Hopefully the success of the Impala encourages them.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    After trailing many of its competitors in the recent engine- and transmission-technology wars, Toyota Motor Corp. will launch a swath of powertrains in the next several years

    Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20131010/OEM04/131019989/toyota-lays-out-future-- powertrain-plans-in-catch-up-bid#ixzz2hQj3iT5X

    I think it's 2 things -

    * Lexus limits what they can do with Toyotas, they have to be less than Lexus
    * They focus on hybrid powertrains, so mainstream engines still lack DI

    Discuss...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Toyota is betting all their chips on future hybrid technology. They are not that interested in full EVs. As far as luxury cars and advanced tech, Toyota seems to be following the old Packard formula--"be ahead of your time, but not too far ahead".

    Toyota is a conservative company by and large.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    The 18K price for the Malibu was a dealer's ad, which only stated "Tax, title and license extra", so the several-hundred dollar destination charge is included already.
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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I remember visiting the Honda showroom some months ago, and seeing a fairly basic new Accord on the floor, with a 20K hangtag. A bargain, as it will hold value too.

    No doubt Malibus, Sonatas, and Altimas can be had even cheaper.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The only generation of Malibu I would say were bad were the 1997-era ones. My wife had the Malibu's ugly sister - a 1999 Olds Cutlass sedan. Calling it crap would be hyperbole, but it was thoroughly mediocre.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    No problem could happen to anyone.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    It was also said to have less mpg than it's comp so they added tech to the A/T, added start/stop and valve tech to improve by 3 mpg's.

    Here's some Malibu news: GM is using the eraser!

    "After an extremely brief 2014 model year run, Chevrolet is discontinuing the eAssist mild hybrid variant of its Malibu midsize sedan."

    "Badged as the Malibu Eco, the car was the first iteration of the current Malibu to launch last year. That decision was seen a strategic misstep by some commentators, as the model’s mileage wasn’t much better – and in some cases, was actually worse – than less expensive, conventionally-powered competitors."
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited October 2013
    No great loss IMHO--I wouldn't have bought a Malibu Eco anyway. Now, a Cruze Eco--maybe.

    Speaking of using the eraser, Toyota is discontinuing the Matrix.
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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited October 2013
    Cheaper, sure, but probably with plastic wheel covers that break off, end up making the cars look cheap, hurting resale values, aging the cars prematurely.

    I always felt you should set a high standard and not chase the cheap skates by cutting out a few bucks here and there.

    Accords will have lower insurance rates, eventually, since people aren't backing in to stuff, watch....
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    My jaw just hit the floor. OMG....
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Wrong again--on the Malibu at least. Aluminum wheels are standard on the '13 and '14 cheapest LS model.
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  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    This is kind of bizarre. I'm taking a walk today and within a block of my house there are two different homes with visitor's cars that have out of state plates - and they are both current gen Malibu's. Just what you guys have been discussing the past few days. I didn't notice rental car bar codes on either one from the sidewalk at least. One was black, the other silver and the latter appeared loaded. I don't think it's a bad looking car, maybe a tad nondescript. I think it looks better than Camry and just as good as Sonata and Altima. The Accord looks are much improved this year, but that is probably only because it was so homely until this year's update.

    You don't get really seem to get a lot of great styling anymore. I wonder if part of that is because decades back the strong styling needed frequent updates to keep looking current. For example, the current Sonata looked fresh when it first came out, but it already is getting long in the tooth. I wonder if Hyundai will be as aggressive with it's next redo. I also wonder how long the current Ford Euro craze will be exciting.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    >>>>>I remember visiting the Honda showroom some months ago, and seeing a fairly basic new Accord on the floor, with a 20K hangtag. A bargain, as it will hold value too.>>>>>

    That is a true fact. Honda will probably have a greater value at trade in time than a "BU". Chevrolet still has to prove it has greater long term value than a Honda. Perhaps this might happen with their 2014 model Impala which is getting rave reviews.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Remember learning about the "time value of money" in school? Money saved or invested at the front end is better than at the back end. ;)

    I keep my cars a long time anyway, so I'd never choose on resale value as a high item on my purchase list.

    Long-term value? You be the judge, but a four-year-old Accord is rated the same reliability by CR (I know many here hang on their opinions) as a four-year-old Cobalt.
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  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Here is the resale value on the 2013 Accord.

    Resale Value at 36 months: 58.4% at 60 months: 46.1%

    Here is the 2013 Honda Civic resale value

    Resale Value at 36 months: 62.3% at 60 months: 46.9%

    Both are category winners by KBB.

    Just a note....

    "We've kept our brand-building discipline on Cruze," McNeil said. "This is going to pay long-term dividends with Cruze resale prices."

    He added that the Cruze sells for about $2,000 more than its competitors. The Chevy Cobalt that preceded it, sold for about $2,000 less than other cars in its class, mainly because of the constant steep discounting.

    Diligently guarding resale values is a strategy that Honda has used successfully for decades. Honda almost never offers discounts on its Civic compact, and sales to rental fleets are nearly nonexistent. The result: some of the highest resale values in the industry and loyal customers who know that their cars won't lose most of their value the second they drive off the lot. "
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    As a consumer, and not an employee or pundit, I look for upfront value more than resale value. Of course, resale value is nice but there are so many other things that are more important to me.
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  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2013
    time value of money

    And then you retire and get too old to enjoy spending it. Invest in experiences early - that's the ticket.

    Don't wait until 60 and your hair thins to buy that Vette.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    I don't know if it's simply coincidence or that you remember me saying here that my wife and I want a Corvette after the kids are out of the house....

    I know there are Corvette owner stereotypes, but I have some stereotypical thoughts of BMW and upper-end Benz owners too (and one of my best friends is among the latter! LOL).

    Our 'Vette can't be red or yellow or white or black.

    I'm liking the dark green you guys got very much. I'd be perfectly happy with the base car, to keep the cost down. I would need the glass top though. I'd be OK with that as the only option.
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  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2013
    Kids? Oh yeah, that's why people worry about the time value of money eh? ;)

    Trouble is, it gets harder to fold yourself into one by the time the kids take off.

    May as well place your bets for NA car of the year.

    "All six of the new vehicles GM has introduced so far in 2013 made the short list of contenders for the 2014 North American Car and Truck/Utility Awards.

    The Buick Encore, Cadillac CTS, Chevrolet Corvette, Chevrolet Impala, Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra will all compete for the awards, which will be announced Jan. 13 at the 2014 North American International Auto Show at Cobo Center in Detroit."

    GM's new vehicles dominate short list of award contenders (Detroit Free Press)
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    That can't be, Steve....any regular reader of this forum knows that 'GM follows, not leads'! LOL
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  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Here is the rest of the story on car, truck of the year.

    9 of 12 cars on the list are foreign brands

    8 of 12 trucks on the list are foreign brands
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Remember learning about the "time value of money" in school? Money saved or invested at the front end is better than at the back end.

    Of course with current interest rates, there's not much time value of money anymore!

    If you keep a car long enough, the resale value becomes less important. For those who hold cars shorter times (2-5 years), it makes a bigger difference. And of course the rate of depreciation has a major effect on lease costs for those who are leasing.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    That can't be, Steve....any regular reader of this forum knows that 'GM follows, not leads'! LOL

    Mostly true.

    As an example, about 5 years ago, one poster on this forum was bragging about GM's hybrid strategy. There was the two-mode hybrid, there was the "mild" hybrids, and there was the Volt.

    Fast forward - The two mode hybrid - do they even sell these any more? The "mild" hybrid - they've just discontinued the Malibu Eco. The Volt - well it's a technical success, although not a market success.

    Meanwhile, Toyota is selling hundreds of thousands of hybrids a year.

    I'd say that's an example of what people mean by "following".
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Maybe, but to ignore the things that Steve mentioned is a tad disingenuous.
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  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Harley Earl's personal 63 Corvette sold at auction for $1.5 Million today at Mecum Auction in Schaumburg, Illinois. Earl was influential in design/styling of many GM autos.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited October 2013
    Uh, xrunner...how many foreign manufacturers sell cars in North America, and how many 'domestic' manufacturers are there?

    As the article states, no other manufacturer even came close to the number of GM vehicles on the list.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Uh, Uplander....when was the last time GM had that many vehicles on the list?

    I ask because I really don't know! ;)
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Toyota's mainstream engines seem to be competitive without DI.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited October 2013
    Packards were good, solid luxury and near-luxury cars through the early 1950s, but other than offering A/C before WWII, how were they ahead of their time? I'm thinking flathead engines, Problematic Ultramatic, failure-prone push button transmission controls and unreliable torsion bar suspension, although I'm not certain about that last one.

    For balance I should add that the problems I mentioned occurred as Packard was struggling to survive, but I don't see where these features were really innovative. Also, wasn't the OHV V8 that Packard introduced in the mid-1950s plagued with problems? It seems to me that Packard had ample opportunity to study competing OHV, short-stroke V8s that were introduced earlier.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Packards, Hudsons, Studebakers, Nashes, Saturns, Pontiacs, Oldmobiles, Desotos, Imperials, Plymouths, Mercuries, Hummers ---- all on the asheap of failed American brands.
This discussion has been closed.