Mazda Protegé

vocus

I will take Mazda's handling and interior room, VW's braking, engine, and transmission, Hyundai's warranty, Honda's durability, and nothing from Toyota, thanks.

boggse

RX-8 with Hyundai warranty.

newcar31

You'll take the VW's transmission? You can have it. And what's so special about VW's brakes?

newcar31

The Focus's ride, Protege's handling, styling, interior room, and build quality, Toyota's durability, Civic Si's 160hp motor and transmission, Saturn or Lexus's dealer service, Hyundai's warranty, and the Jetta's interior minus all the little buttons and rattles. That car would be PERFECT for $16K. Ain't gonna happen though.

the_big_h

I'd say $18-19k is needed to have something close to that 'perfect' compact car

mdaffron

My Protege IS perfect!

Great brakes -- hey, they stop my car well and I've had no trouble with them in 44,000 miles so far

Peppy engine coupled with a 5-speed manual, this car zooms! And it'll go as fast as I care to (currently my self-imposed limit is 110 even though Zoomster still had some breath left)

BEST handling in its class

VERY comfortable seats & ride (even with my 270-pound mass that once felt fine in them at over 315), and they remain so after 29 months and 44K miles

Self-proven reliability (83,000 trouble-free miles on my '92 LX, 44,200 on my 2000 ES, 9,000 on our '02 P5)

VERY safe (Totaled my first '92 in a 45-mph hydroplaning accident; yet even without air bags I walked away from it)

BEST standard warranty in the Japanese car class (let's not forget Hyundai's 10-year warranty is POWERTRAIN ONLY; the bumper-to-bumper warranty only lasts 10,000 miles longer than Mazda's 50,000 miles) -- also keep in mind that Hyundai implemented its whopping warranty to help offset its image as a horribly unreliable vehicle -- Mazda doesn't have that problem -- I'll stop saying this when I see Hyundais repeatedly earning "best buy" and "recommended" status AND earning No. 1 spots in reviews continuously

BEST service (of course this depends on where you go, and I have a winner with Whitten Mazda in Richmond, VA -- I've purchased five vehicles from them in 11 years and their excellence keeps me coming back)

BESIDES, WHO in their RIGHT MIND would want ANYTHING FOCUS in their Proteges??? Aren't you some of the same people who are dreading the debut of the 2004 Focege???

Meade

mdaffron

... that I'm quite surprised that the Elantra came in No. 2 in C&D's new comparo (same test that placed the Protege 1st, btw), beating out the Civic and Corolla.

I still believe one thing that is sorely left out of these comparos is long-term reliability. Let me repeat once again what a Hyundai Santa Fe owner told a prospective buyer on the Santa Fe discussion:

"Be glad you've got that warranty, because you'll be using it."

And no one challenged that remark either.

Meade

newcar31

"BESIDES, WHO in their RIGHT MIND would want ANYTHING FOCUS in their Proteges???"

Who in their right mind WOULDN'T want the Focus's ride instead of the Protege's? The Protege doesn't have a horrible ride, but the Focus rides better. I never said I wanted the Focus's recalls and reliability record, I said I wanted the Focus's ride. We were talking about the "perfect" $16K car, and IMO, the "perfect" $16K car would ride like a Focus and handle like a Protege. Comprende?

dsm6

And who is smoking what?

The pro is darn good, but by no means perfect.

I agree, in part - keep the focus off the Focus; although in European form (sold briefly here as a "Street Edition" ugrade with euro spec suspension), it both handles well and rides well.

bluong1

is what I'm waiting for. But even that one will not be perfect (who is?)

chikoo

but the european focus(the original) is a great handling car with excellent suspension setup.

And the reason why I am taking the survey on the downshift to 1st gear while coming to a stop is that I want to know whether the computer(on my car)has been programmed right. mine is an early '99 ES so there would have been a glitch which could have been corrected later on into the production. who knows?

So once again, i repeat the question:
When coming to a stop, when do you feel ur P5 shifts into first gear? near the 10mph mark or near the 0mph mark?

waiting for ur valuable response.
Other Protege ES(automatic) owners, I'd really appreciate if u participate and let me know your observation.

-chikoo

the_big_h

i guess i should answer your survey, since mine's a 00 ES auto.

I never bothered to look at the speedo when coming to a stop, but I do keep an eye on the tach. when coming to a stop, the tach just smoothly drops to its idling rpm (~700) as I'm slowing down. everything felt smooth during deceleration, no downshift of any kind.

so I'd say, in my 2000 ES auto, the tranny doesn't shift back to 1st until (or near) 0 mph.

(but really, you should look at the tach to see if it's downshifting, if it's downshifting at 10mph you should definitely see a minor jump in the tach)

vocus

I prefer the VW's transmission for its Tiptronic capabilities. They don't put the gears backward like Mazda does. In the VW, you flick the stick forward to upshift, pull back to downshift, which makes sense. It doesn't when it's the opposite way, not to me anyway.

I also like the brakes in the VW because they are dead-on and stop the car very quickly and sturdily.

vocus

I didn't think any cars shifted to 1st until 0mpg or close. I put mine in Tip mode, and can "see" the gears on the dash display. It doesn't drop to 1 until 5-0mph every time.

dsm6

Hey, why are you ruining the perfect $16k sedan with an automatic?

mdaffron

Vocus especially.

mdaffron

Give 'em hell, boy!!!

These are probably the same people who think the Focus has a great ride!

Meade
5-speed or public transportation: There is no other choice

vocus

I have to "ruin" a car with automatic, because I don't know how to drive a stick shift yet. I wanna learn, but think I will stick to my Tip for now. I don't wanna have to shift in traffic.

I put my car in Tip mode one day in traffic. It took me 45 mins. to get 8 miles (yes, EIGHT miles in 45 MINS). Traffic is hardly that bad around here, but that was about the worst I had experienced in awhile. By the end of those 8 miles with shifting (and without working the clutch), I did not want to deal with it anymore! I think I will stick with my Tip, thanks.

vocus

I drove a rental Focus for about 50 miles 2 or 3 weekends ago in a day. It wasn't a bad ride, I didn't think. Softer than my car rides, of course I have sport springs and 17 inch tires too, so that makes sense. The handling on the Focus was not near Protege levels though, IMO.

mdaffron

Why does it have to be "forward" for upshift, "rearward" for downshift? You obviously come from the Automatic Transmission school of thinking.

Any 5-speed owner knows it's forward for first, rearward for second, forward for third, rearward for fourth, and forward for fifth! And neutral-to-right-rearward for reverse!

You tiptronic-shmiptronic, manual tranny wannabe.

Meade

P.S. There's no way to compare shmiptronic to manual. Since a manual tranny is the only way the car shifts, using it becomes second nature and you rarely even think about it. (Hence 0-60 times are usually FASTER in manuals vs. automatics.) A shmiptronic user only uses that function occasionally and thus never gets used to using it -- and every use is more a novelty or a practice session than learning to drive the car that way permanently. Also shmiptronic usually is not a physical link to the tranny like a manual is, so there's no way to compare the speed and precision of a manual tranny or the amount of control the driver has over the transmission. And we won't even get into how much additional weight any automatic, shmiptronic-equipped or not, has to carry around vs. a manual.

mdaffron

... would be better suited driving, say, a Buick?

The Protege's firm ride is an excellent, road-feeling result of its firm, class-leading suspension! The Focus, by comparison, wallows down the road!

Do you guys also sleep on pillow-top mattresses and have hand rails by your toilets?

And I really don't CARE about the European Focus. That's like me sitting here all day telling you guys how much better Fosters beer is in Europe ... which it is. Doesn't make the Fosters swill over here taste any better.

Meade

the_big_h

it actually makes more sense to have forward-downshift and back-upshift, since in a manual, it looks like this: (pardon the lame ascii drawing :-D)

1 3 5
|--|--|
2 4 R/6

so, if you're simulating straight up and down shift pattern, then it actually makes more sense to push forward to downshift, and back to upshift...

mdaffron

How confusing THAT car was. As if the tranny-hump-mounted ignition key wasn't bad enough, HERE was its shift pattern:

R 2 4
|--|--|
1 3

I never could get used to pushing up to the left to go backward.

(Apparently neither could the tranny, which lost a bearing and bent itself to pieces at a traffic light at 80,000 miles ... $1,200 to rebuild it in 1985 bucks.)

Meade

vocus

Actually, in a VW, it's more like this...

R 1 3 5
I---I--I--I
2 4 6 (if equipped)

Shifting forward for + and - for back is more intuitive though, to me anyway, on the Tiptronic. I have never driven a manual on the road though...

mdaffron

How delightfully European (e.g. SAAB) and counter-intuitive.

"I wanna go backward, so I need to turn to the right and look over my shoulder. While I'm doing so, I'm gonna take this here lever and push it UP and to the LEFT" -- almost sounds like rubbing one's belly whilst patting one's head!!!

Of course, many of them drive on the wrong side of the road anyway ...

chicagopro

Sorry, Meade, but I have to go along with Todd on this one.

That rental Focus I had for a couple of days DID ride better than my Protege.

I have to drive through major construction to get to work these days, and the lanes are different almost every morning. Some days we're riding on the shoulder, etc. VERY rough driving conditions.

In the Protege my teeth almost rattle. In the Focus, it was much smoother. WithOUT being wallowy. And I know wallowy. A Stratus is wallowy.

But yes, I much prefer the Protege's handling.

newcar31

Geez, why is it so hard to understand that the Focus rides better than the Protege. We were talking about a hypothetical "perfect" $16K car. No, I don't want it to ride like a Buick, and the Focus DOESN'T ride like a Buick. My "perfect" $16K car would RIDE like a Focus and HANDLE like a Protege. I don't think the idea is that far out. I never said I wanted it to ride like a Buick and handle like a Ferrari. That's unrealistic. It's really pretty simple and I don't see why you are having such a hard time with this.

"And I really don't CARE about the European Focus. That's like me sitting here all day telling you guys how much better Fosters beer is in Europe ... which it is."

Again, we were speaking hypothetically about the "perfect" $16K car and I thought we made that very clear.

bri70

"Be glad you've got that warranty, because you'll be using it."

I cannot speak for the Sante Fe, but I am unaware of anyone having a mechanical problem in either Elantra (GLS/GT) forum with over 5500 posts between them. Not one major mechanical problem.

I like the Protege, it is a very nice handling car and I think first place in C&D's test is fitting. But keep in mind that the Elantra was only one point behind :-)

mdaffron

Can't you debate without getting so emotional? I'm not having a hard time accepting anything. What I am having is an enjoyable debate that you obviously can't join in on without getting your blood pressure worked up. Calm down. It's a car.

:-)

I really do feel that there is no way in hell's half-acre that you can assert, "why is it so hard to understand that the Focus rides better than the Protege." "Ride" is a personal preference. If I like my "ride" to be firm, letting me feel every nuance of the road, then that's a "better ride" for me. If you prefer a smooth, buttery suspension that damps out vibrations and things that go bump in the night, that's your preference.

But don't go on asserting that the Focus has a "better ride." Compare measurable traits like fuel economy, horsepower or skid-pad numbers ... leave the seat of your pants out of it please.

Please learn to accept the fact that other people have personalities and opinions here.

Meade

vocus

When did you drive a Focus anyway? Just curious.

The Protege will jar your teeth (per Dale) on rough roads. The Focus really didn't, from what I remember of it. And I rode through 2 construction zones 4 different times within 4 hours in the same day.

Also, you have to push down, up, and to the left in the VW stick for R. I would prefer all that, rather than going into R on the highway by mistake.

newcar31

Emotional? I'm fine and I still stand by the fact that the Focus has better ride quality than the Protege. The Focus isn't buttery, wallowy, or Buick-like. You're making it seem like the Protege is light years ahead of the Focus in handling, which it is not. I have had extensive seat time in both cars and that is the conclusion that I have came to. I'm not an idiot, I know my cars VERY well. It isn't just me either, many publications agree that the Focus has an excellent, world class suspension setup with an outstanding balance between ride and handling. For the third time, IMO, I would enjoy a combination of the Focus's ride quality and the Protege's handling if I were able to have the hypothetical $16K "perfect" car.

mdaffron

I had a brand-new 2000 Focus as a loaner once for more than a week when my B2300 was in the shop.

My Protege has never "jarred my teeth" and I've even taken it off-road on a construction site here in Richmond, complete with washboard-style caterpillar tracks in hard dirt. Still have every one of my teeth.

Remember that the "ride" that some of you blame on the car may be nothing more than a function of the tires you have on it. The Dunlop SP Sport A2s give my car a much quieter ride than the ride I had with the stock Bridgestones -- maybe changing your tires would help your "ride" opinions. BTW, my Dunlops are H-rated; V-rated tires tend to transmit more road noise and feel by nature. Does anyone know what speed rating the stock tires are on the Focus?

Paul, you manual wannabe, there's no way you can go into R on the highway by mistake with a 5-speed. You have to shift out of gear, go into neutral and wait to engage reverse. Besides, having reverse way over to the bottom right all by itself, you're much less likely to try to go there by accident. With the VW, without looking you could take off in reverse thinking you were in first. Look out behind you!!!

Meade

maltb

Meade owned a Ford and it sucked. Therefore, everything about every Ford still sucks. Do not question your authority!

mdaffron

I agree with you. The Focus DOES have a world-class suspension. But so does the Protege, and I can provide the bibliographical information to back up my claim as well.

BTW, I never said anything close to claiming that the Protege's suspension is light-years ahead of anyone else's. I believe my implications were that the Protege's ride may appeal to some, and the Focus' may appeal more to others. It's all PERSONAL TASTE when it comes to ride quality.

I never called you an idiot either. When it comes to insults, you've got me beat hands-down.

And I still think you're being emotional.

;-)

Meade

mdaffron

Get your facts straight.

If you're referring to the B2300 that I owned that was constructed mostly from Ford products on a Ford assembly line, I did not use my experience with engine pinging to equate to ride quality in the Focus.

Wow, I guess I have awakened the ire of all my personal assailants at Edmunds today ... how boring a place this discussion would be without me!

Number 1 again tomorrow, I foretell!

Meade

maltb

Sorry for the mis-understanding, I was speaking of your B2300 which is 100% Ford.

newcar31

"It's all PERSONAL TASTE when it comes to ride quality."

You don't need to tell me that. I was just responding to other posts about the perfect $16K car and I posted about what *I* thought would be the perfect car.

BTW, I owned a Ford also and it was the most trouble free car I've ever owned. I also happened to abuse this car much more than the others. Not only did it take the severe abuse, it seemed to be asking for more. This includes a Subaru, a Mazda, an Acura, and a Honda. I'm not including my current car because it only has 22K miles and hasn't proven itself yet.

mdaffron

The grille, front fenders and hood were different and supplied by Mazda, as were the front facia and tail lights. The steering wheel cover was Mazda. But before you reach to reply, let's talk about a BIG non-Ford part ... the transmission (being a Mazda employee, how could you have overlooked THIS?) was a Mazda transmission. Interestingly enough, since you're attempting to pin me on the "hating Ford because my B2300 was one" thing, you should admit your knowledge of the fact that the Mazda 5-speed transmission in this hulk WAS the only thing on the vehicle that ever REALLY left me stranded, spewing transmission fluid out of its poorly designed shift-rail installation bushings on its top end. A very common problem for these trannies, and one that caused many Ranger AND B2300 owners to learn after their transmissions seized and cost them hundreds of dollars to replace. Luckily I caught mine in time and fixed it myself, using new freeze plugs and a tube of high-temp silicone cement. Five bucks to fix a problem that cost others close to a thousand. Geesh Mazda, you coulda done that one better.

Meade

mdaffron

Mocking me with the "buddy" comment definitely shows me that you're being emotional.

Meade

newcar31

I wasn't trying to mock you but I can undertand why you would think that.

chicagopro

You know you love being the Focus of attention.

(Sorry, couldn't resist)

mdaffron

I just wish people would stop throwing the Taurus excrement around here!!! We almost got this topic so out of Contour, Ranger Pat might have had to come in and Escort some of us out of here! It's good we Aspire to greater things, however, and like Explorers on a soul-searching Excursion have come full-circle here.

Meade

maltb

I humbly admit that I failed to recall that the trans is a Mazda unit built in Japan.

But, your Mazda truck was as much Ford as a Ranger. All those parts that differed from the Ranger(even though it was Mazda emblems, etc) were still built by Ford or sourced from a Ford supplier, not Mazda as you were somehow led to believe.

Ok, so the trans was the only thing that failed... then why do you hold such disdain for all things Ford? the way you talk about that truck is that it failed you numerous times. I'm not a huge Ford fan but there are some things that each manufacturer may exceed the others in, including Ford.

edit: nice post morphing...

ashutoshsm

Is a work of art! Noisy as hell, rough ride (tight suspension and low profile 17's), but that car can haul some serious @$$.

And it handles like a dream. And they aren't exactly popular, so they're selling cheap. And a 5-door version is coming out in a few weeks. Throw in an extended warranty, and I'd prefer it over a turbo (and higher insurance/cost) Mazdaspeed Protege, or even P5. Blasphemous? I don't think so - go try it out!

mdaffron

The truth is I DON'T hold a general "disdain for all things Ford." I haven't posted one bad comment about Ford in weeks, or has it been months? You always seem to bring it up and elicit my story again (as you've once again done here), causing everyone to believe I hate all things Ford. Truth is, my Ranger/B2300's engine began pinging when the truck had 8,200 miles on it. And not just a mild pre-detonation -- loud, continuous pinging at almost any speed. My wonderful dealership (I mean that) went to no end to try and find the problem -- we went the whole spectrum from trying different brands of gas and changing plugs to swapping out my PCM not once, but twice, replacing ALL engine sensors, removing the entire engine save the block and sending out the head to have it re-machined, relocating and customizing the EGR sensor tube, replacing the exhaust manifold, cat AND muffler, and more -- all at Mazda's expense, and continuing wayyyy past the expiration of the factory warranty. And placing me in a rental car (not a loaner, but an Enterprise rental car) every time, sometimes for as much as three weeks, at their expense. I have nothing but praise for Mazda's service here ... and Mazda NA was involved and met with me twice in person on this. No, my problem was with Ford because this was a documented problem experienced by many, many owners of Ford Rangers and their relatives that had Ford's 8-spark-plug 2.3-liter four -- and the fact that Ford chose to leave everyone scratching their heads -- fellow manufacturers and their dealerships included -- tarnished my respect for Ford. (The late 80s and early 90s Tempo, which also used this engine, had many documented reports of pre-detonation problems as well.) Four years of this not only irritated my eardrums and my respect for Ford, it also damaged my pocketbook since as a result, my fuel mileage never once reached even the CITY rating on the vehicle's sticker. A truck designed to run 23/27 mpg never gave me more than 21 even on full-blown, unloaded highway trips -- which was most of what I used it for anyway.

I still love pulling up beside Rangers at traffic lights and hearing them ping like crazy when they take off.

No, I don't think ALL Ford products are crummy -- but Ford's refusal to help its customers with a recall, which is now further reinforced by the litigation that has had to take place due to the publicity surrounding Ford's decade-long use of dangerous and faulty ignition coils that Ford had full knowledge of (as proven in an internal letter written by a Ford employee that has been made public), tainted my opinion of the company in general. The fact that the Focus is the "Pinto of the 21st Century" doesn't help either. Nor does the recent problem over the Explorer and its tires -- no matter who's at fault, Ford's PR department should be terminated en masse for how that was handled.

It's not Ford's products I don't believe in -- it's the company that I distrust. And apparently I'm far from alone -- every time Ford puts its hands into someone else's product, I rarely read comments like "Oh GOODIE!!!"

Meade

boggse

When I test drove a 2001 Focus ZTS, I found the ride to be quite nice. Firm, but not overly so. I like the Protege's ride better, but my wife probably doesn't. The problem I had with the Focus, which the Protege does so much better, is the seats. I hope the Procus gets Mazda seats, and not Ford. The whole Procus thing kind of scares me anyway. I fear that Mazda will become the next Mercury.

mdaffron

Thanks for playing, Ted!

Meade

newcar31

In a perfect world, wouldn't you prefer the ride in the Focus and still maintain the Protege's excellent handling? I'm not talking about picking one or the other, I'm talking about having your cake and eating it too.

vocus

I test drove 3 different Foci (is that correct pernunciation?) when I was looking at the Protege. I liked the way the Focus drove and handled (this was when I was still in VW denial). Anyway, the seats were the most uncomfortable thing to me as well.

Now I drove about 50 miles in this rental, and the seats were fine. This was a 2002 SE model, the same I had driven before (2000 and 2001 SE and ZX3 models). Maybe they changed the seats?

And before anyone responds, I can feel if a seat is comfortable within 20 minutes of driving. I have a very sensitive back that stems from a car accident injury I received in 1998. If the seat's not comfortable, I know it right away.

mdaffron

What, you trying to talk Ted into changing his mind? Man!

Meade

P.S. My stepmom's 1999 Buick Riviera DOES have a nice, buttery-smooth, tomblike ride ...