Mazda Protegé

newcar31

That Protege in the upper right hand corner is green, not black. It has factory wheels on it, same ones I have. It's the same car as all the other pics, just before the 19 inch rims.

mdaffron

First of all, it ruins the looks of the car by screwing up the geometry (i.e. concentricity) of the wheel openings with the wheels themselves. Makes the car look like Chris Farley, Drew Carey, Oprah Winfrey and Rush Limbaugh are just returning from Home Depot with a trunk full of cinder blocks.

Second, talk about NO suspension travel ... the way we've gone on about "rough ride" and stuff, you ever been riding beside one of these lowboys and seen it bouncing and twitching down the road like its frame is bolted right to the axles? And those 35-series tires only compound the pain at every pebble!

Don't tell me it's all for the sake of looks. LOOKS? Well, if they're going for "stupid," then I guess they got what they wanted!

My opinion, ladies and gents; I'm not asking you to agree! But I know Todd will have his say, so go right ahead! I have my "Type-R" sunglasses on! Now, where did I put that Folgers can ...

Meade

vocus

I thought about lowering my car, but only 1.4 inches. It's not extremely discernable at that rate, I don't think. And lowering the car also helps handling a bit, and reduces body lean.

newcar31

That Protege is far from "folgers can". I actually agree with you on one thing. Lowering does mess up your suspension geometry and your tires will wear un-evenly unless you get a camber kit. It sure does look cool though.

mdaffron

I would like to offer that there's much more to improved handling than simply lowering the car. And for the life of me I can't understand why someone would purchase a new car for, say, $15,000, and put $10,000 worth of upgrades into it to make it act like the $25,000 car they should've bought in the first place.

Here's some light reading on suspension and handling dynamics you all might find interesting -- it even has a section on, oh lord, "ride quality!" :O

http://www.rqriley.com/suspensn.html

Meade

ashutoshsm

This can be done two wqys - right, and wrong.

Some people tie their springs, or put on coilovers - that is the wrong way. Most of them don't bother to change the wheel alignment to compensate, and are left with a poorly handling low car that eats away their tires.

If alignment is adjusted, and the right spec shocks are used, then the car's handling characteristics improve TREMENDOUSLY! Not to mention the improved appearance with smaller gaps and openings in the wheel wells. Of course, you loose comfort, and part of the reason is because the shorter shocks are inevitably stiffer as well, to increase cornering response. But its an acceptable trade-off for the serious enthusiast. Also, higher quality, gas-fileld shocks have quicker response rates, as well as lower weight - further reducing unspring weight and improving handling.

FYI, MAPP-IV had a number of examples of both types (cosmetic-only as well as performance-based) lowering.
(Some of my terminology or explanations MAY be imprecise, feel free to correct and point it out!)

mdaffron

You know 99 percent of the boy-racers out there do it for looks. And there's far more investment in Rockford Fosgate than in Bilstein behind all that plastic.

Meade

chikoo

by replacing the the struts with shorter ones or maybe tie them down.

I thought they just took out the struts and bolted the axles onto the body

j/k

newcar31

You have to do it right though. You can't lower your car 3 inches and expect it to handle well, even with corrected camber. I'd say an 1.5 inches at the most. The more wheel travel you lose, the worse your car is going to be when things get bumpy. Bottoming out is a serious problem too. I know because I've been through all of this with my Integra which was lowered 2 inches and had tokico struts. I ended up putting the stock springs back on.

maltb

And it can be done right by raising the strut towers. However, moving the strut towers up is not cheap and definietly not a backyard job.

ashutoshsm

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, you can have the same high-travel shocks, but have lowered the effective center of gravity, and changed the appearance of the car.

Come to think of it, This must explain why all the low-slung muscle cars, and sports cars, and even roadsters have high strut towers. Duh - I never made the connection before

vocus

I was going to get the Neuspeed sport springs for my car, as well as Bilstein sport shocks. It would drop the car 1.5 inches in the front, 1.4 inches in the back. Even with 17" tires, I still have enough gap to see over the wheels, and I don't want that. If I had the 15s, the gap would be huge!

And as far as spending $10K extra, I don't get why some people do that either. Makes no sense to me. I plan to go no higher than $1500 or so, including installation for the stuff I want.

ashutoshsm

Umm, barring minor variations, the diameter of the tire is kept constant - so the gap around a 15 (say 195/65) would be the same as the gap around a 17 (225/45) - just throwing these numbers out approximately, I may be off a bit.
EDIT: I checked the vw website, and found my sizes were spot-on for the Jetta, and these two diameters are identical, with a 0.0% variation. So there!

What does make it stand out is the perception of 'black space' which includes the gap as well as the tire sidewall, beyond the rim of the 15 inch wheel, which is two inches less in diameter than the 17 inch wheel. Jedi mind tricks, wheel/tire-style

Exactly what I achieved when I moved from 175/70-13 to 105/50-15 on my 95 Protege!

vocus

I never knew that. But if you park 2 VWs next to each other (one with 15s, the other with 17s), the one with 15s looks like it has a larger gap. Maybe just an optical illusion?

And tire 195/65 and 225/45 are the exact sizes of the tires as well.

ashutoshsm

Yeah, I scare myself with how I remember numbers and specs I've heard just once. Which makes it much worse when I get something wrong - because I am not expecting to

dinu01

Boggse: How are the Bosch Platinum plugs compared to the OEM ones? I had the OEM "NKG" on my Civic before and it worked well. Did you notice anything (improvement/loss of performance) with the Bosch? Anyone else?

What sparkplugs do you recommend? OEM, Bosch, etc...

Mazdafun, Paul, Todd: Thanx for responding to my questions. I already changed the air filter last week ($20 CDN from Mazda). I will do the front brakes in the spring and flush the system too.

I will change the spark plugs and the coolant (seriously considering it) in December and I will talk to Mazda about the AT fluid change. Should I let them "tighten the bolts" and "lubricate" the locks, etc??? Is that necessary? Will they deny warranty work b/c of it?

Dinu

fowler3

"Because any car enthusiast knows that silver metallic paint is the least resistant to
sunlight and will fade and peel prematurely."

I didn't know that and I consider myself a car enthusiast. I would have thought that darker colors would be less resistant to sunlight and fade easier because they absorb the sunlight a lot more. Could you post a link that descibes this phenomenon?"

Silver is BMW's main color, also for MB, and for decades, before acrylic paints, silver lost its luster in 12 months. No amount of polishing would bring it back. That's why you don't see silver on older BMWs. Salesmen advised buyers to choose something else.

Reds, blues and greens fade quicker than colors like black and white, although, they too, oxadize. Dark greens in particular. Use cleaners sparingly since they take off paint. Wax and polish more.

Acrylic paints have helped a lot.

fowler3

newcar31

"tighten the bolts"

What is that? The only tangible things that I can think of for a 30,000 mile service would be an oil change, transmission fluid change, spark plugs, air filter, and a coolant flush. I thought the rest of the stuff was just "inspections".

mdaffron

... if there were no clear coat over the paint. With proper maintenance, a dark-colored clear-coated paint job can last a long time. Now, I understand your defensive posture since you own a silver Protege ...

Meade

chicagopro

Fowler's Protege is Sand Mica. Keep up.

Hank, how was the GRE?

mazdafun

Get yourself some spray silicone lubricant. You might want to use a light grease on the door hinges.

As far as tightening bolts, get your car up on ramps and poke around for any loose bolts underneath. I didn't find any on mine when I looked. Found some rust, sprayed some anti-rust on it to chemically change it into a primer-like substance.

mdaffron

Bite me.

Meade

mdaffron

My apologies if someone posted this link already, but this site has some EXCELLENT photos that you can click on twice for screen-size closeups! Enjoy!

http://www.velocityjrnl.com/jrnl/2003/vmd2867ml.html

Meade

newcar31

There are an awful lot of bolts underneath the car. I find it hard to believe that the dealer "tightens bolts" at service intervals. What do they do? Go through the service manual and check every load bearing bolt underneath the car to make sure it's torqued properly? I doubt it. I don't think there is anything at the 30,000 mile service that couldn't be done in your garage.

vocus

For the 30K service on the 99 DX (the 2001 didn't make it that far), I took the car to my local garage and had the major stuff done. It ended up only being a tune-up and oil change. I also had to have the brake pads changed and the rotors resurfaced. The total was $130 or something close to it (it's been awhile, so I might be off a little). Better than $300+ at the dealer for the same thing!

newcar31

You probably could have saved $100 and did it in your garage.

vocus

Well I don't have a garage. I don't even have space to wash my car at home without dragging the hose up the alley next to my house.

This might change soon, as I am contemplating putting a parking pad in the back of my house and knocking down the patio that's there. It's old anyway and kinda sloppy looking, and parking is getting more and more difficult around my area. So it might be worth it in the longrun. Definitely will add value to the house. So if I do that, then I will start doing little things (oil changes, washing, etc.) at home.

meinrad

I'll gladly pay that extra $100 and not do that work in my garage. I don't like working on my car, I don't want to take the time to work on my car. I'm even paying someone to wax my car.

It's gotten so old reading on all these forums that everytime someone brings up Jiffy Lube, or getting a service done at (oh lord don't say it)a dealer, they are told how they cold do it themselves.

Well 'do it yourselfers', I'm speaking up for the 'let someone else do its'! It doesn't make you a bad person, it doesn't mean you don't love your car, and it doesn't matter what you spend if you have the money and you feel comfortable with the person performing service.

townhall9

While driving in the left lane, at 70 mph, on the Interstate, in the dark, this morning - I noticed that all the vehicles around me were full size trucks or suv's. I felt like a cheeta running with bulls. Some people like a lumbering vehicle. I'll take quickness & agility (with my 02 ES) any day. P.S. For background - I've been driving for more yrs than I care to mention - with no wrecks.

dinu01

I like to think along the same lines too. Will never buy a truck. 3/5DR HBs, 2 dr coupes or 4Dr sedans for me.

Dinu

newcar31

Hey, I respect those who don't want to do their own maintanence. I still follow the old saying that if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself, especially if you're talking about vehicle service. I've seen enough crap happen at dealerships and Jiffy Lube type places to make me not trust anyone. I used to work at these places. I'll do everything I can on my car and only use dealerships and service centers as a last resort.

vocus

I am very funny with my car though. I like the peace of mind involved in doing stuff yourself. Because you know how it was done and that it was done properly. I know how to do some stuff on my car, but I just don't have the time or space right now.

the_big_h

by the GRE...

ashutoshsm

That bad, huh? Sucks. Well, one of the good things about it is that you can always do it again!

dinu01

I'll ask them what EXACTLY they do for that tightening the bolts svc. It seems ridiculous to me that they will crawl under the car and check every bolt. It will take hours!

I too prefer to do things myself on my car, but I don't have space to do it. Next year (when the 2nd PRO will be bought) we're moving in a newly-built house, so I'll have plenty of space. I was even thinking of asking the builder to dig a hole in the garage so I can out a svc bay to change oil underneath the car. I bet it would cost $$$!

Dinu

newcar31

"I like the peace of mind involved in doing stuff yourself. Because you know how it was done and that it was done properly."

Exactly. You can't put a price on piece of mind.

the_big_h

killed the math section, bombed the verbal section. the written essay won't be graded for another 2 weeks...

newcar31

I don't think they will check any bolts. In order to properly check all of these bolts, they would have to loosen every bolt, then re-torque them to spec. You can just throw a torque wrench on a bolt and check it.

townhall9

(preferably in a small shop) by having him do the routine things. That way one has someone to go to when big projects come up.

newcar31

That's true. I have a guy who will do the big stuff like timing belt/water pump when it comes up. I'd be embarrassed to bring my car to him for oil changes though.

mdaffron

I agree with you that doing things yourself (a) instills a level of pride, and (b) ensures you did it right.

However, some people, including, to an extent, me, don't have the (a) knowhow, (b) time, (c) proper tools, or (d) work area to do vehicle maintenance. Case in point: I have a gravel driveway made up of large, railroad-grade gravel. While I am very used to changing my own oil and have been doing so since I owned my first car in 1985, and have all the ramps, oil pans, wrenches, and tools I need, it's still a pain in the [non-permissible content removed] (and the back, elbows and knees) to perform this menial task at my house. It's easier to just take the car up to my Goodyear guy and pay him $16.95.

Same goes for tire rotation. Yep, got the 2-ton floor jack and jack stands. But nowhere to place them.

(BTW, this all might be a moot point come November -- I've got a guy coming out to give me an estimate on paving my driveway this afternoon!!!! Merry Christmas two months early (maybe), Zoomster!!!)

Meade

meinrad

"Exactly. You can't put a price on piece of mind."

You are right, that's one reason I'll let someone else do it. I could just as easily strip a bolt, or something as well as the shop. If I do, I have to pay for the repair, if a shop does it, they pay for it.

I get piece of mind letting someone who does this kind of work for a living do it, rather than doing it myself just to save a few bucks. If you don't have the time or the real desire to do it, you might hurry, not be as careful, whatever.

PS. Do you die hard do it yourselfers ever eat at restaurants? I would think for piece of mind you'd always cook your own food. Have you ever seen some of those kitchens?

mazdafun

Unless you complain to them about squeaking noises from the chassis.

As far as lubricating, I think they use spray silicone and a grease gun (from my last post-service visual inspection), and very messily I might add.

I started out getting most servicing done outside, but have decided to do more of it myself due to some screw-up. I think for the simpler tasks that I take on, they let the less experienced staff tackle. Also, I think they take short-cuts, like using the pneumatic impact driver both thread and tighten wheel bolts (I've had to replace damaged lug bolts twice due to damage done this way), and just rush the job in general.

The more messy stuff, I get garages to do, but I check it out after the work has been done. It still gets messed up on occasion, like when they forgot to put the seals on the new rear bearings on my '89 323 (I didn't notice any problems, but just had them replaced as preventive maintenance), leading to grease being spread all over my rear wheels and tires. Oh well. It pays to find a good garage. I still haven't found one yet that hasn't done something wrong, even those that have been recommended to me highly by friends. Guess I just have poor luck.

mazdafun

Same goes for take-out.

Ick. :P

It takes a lot more effort to cook, but we get sick less often.

vocus

I know exactly what you mean by that. If I prepare it myself, I know my hands are clean, the raw product is good, etc.

curious38

Hey Protege owners. . . .

Tell me what you think about this used Protege I found. Its a '99 Protege LX, $35,000 miles, all the "power options" (which I actually don't care too much about), spoiler, cd, etc.

Drove it yesterday. Since I'm used to driving old Lincoln's/Buicks/Trucks, any economy car feels really weird. This felt pretty similar to a Honda I was considering, and also Saturns I have driven in the past.

Did a Carfax on it today. The dealer had said they bought it at a car auction (its a Ford dealer and she told me they basically do this so they don't have a lot full of used Fords). Carfax said it was a lease/commercial vehicle. This doesn't alarm me as much as it might otherwise, as I have friends who drive work vehicles and have put 30,000 miles on those in a year, and this one seems to have low miles for being a '99.

Lets hear your thoughts!

newcar31

Like I said before, I understand why some people don't do some services themselves. If you don't trust yourself, don't do it. If someone else screws your car up, you have something to fall back on---usually. The problems start when the mechanic tells you "it was like that before" or when they break something and charge you to fix it. Most people wouldn't have a clue and end up paying for something that the shop screwed up. It happens more often that you would think. I brought my Mustang into a place that I trusted once for drivability problems. They wanted to put an $800 ECU in it and they would have. I decided to check things out myself and it ended up being a bad cap and rotor that had been replaced recently. Why didn't the shop check the simple things first? Because an ECU will get them more money. How many people would have shelled out $800 for the ECU? My guess is that most people would have.

As far as food goes, I don't eat at fast food joints that often. They have some pretty good quality stuff here in downtown Mpls, much better than I could do.

mdaffron

But you didn't address MY point.

In my case, I'm taking my car in for routine service that's too back-breaking to do at home. I know what I'm taking the car there for, so there's really no way they can screw me. I'll only pay for what I ask for.

What you're talking about is people who are ignorant and/or inept. I would like to think that most of us here aren't described by those adjectives; therefore I thought this debate was more about convenience and preferences than carbuffs vs. idiots.

If we're going to debate the latter, then sure, I agree -- all idiots get screwed by mechanics. They can see 'em coming a mile away!

Meade

newcar31

I understand what you're saying, but mechanics can always find extra stuff to do if they want to, and believe me, you don't have to be an idiot to be taken by a mechanic. When that shop told me I needed an ECU, I believed them, kind of. I had no clue what was wrong with the car. I was shocked to learn it would be $800 to fix and I didn't have the money. Out of desperation, I brought my car home and checked everything related to the ignition that I could. I didn't expect the cap and rotor to be bad since they were just replaced recently. On a hunch, I put the old cap and rotor back on and it was fixed. You could say that I should have done this before I took it to the shop but how was I supposed to guess that a brand new cap and rotor would be defective?

Bottom line is if doing your own maintenance is too much of an inconvenience for you, you have to let someone else do it. I can understand that this is the situation for many people. Luckily, it's not my situation.

vocus

The same thing happend once to an old car of my mother's. They tried to say the battery was bad in it. It turned out to be a defective alternator, which I found out by taking it to a friend of mine and having it tested. Saved me $60, since the alternator had just been replaced and was still under warranty.