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Mazda Protegé

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Comments

  • bluong1bluong1 Posts: 1,927
    from the ping. Modern engines, including the FS-DE used in the Pro have antiknock sensor, which delay the spark plug timing when ping is detected.

    Bruno
  • Help me out here. Is not pinging caused by premature ignition. Ignition that is caused by factors other than the spark of the spark plug?
  • i agree with the plugs being frozen, i would not risk leaving a plug in for 100,000 miles. the overall cost of spark plugs is about 1 to 3 dollars per plug, thats not alot of money. plus plugs are easy to change on most cars, so can be a do it yourself type deal.
  • bluong1bluong1 Posts: 1,927
    If the spark time is retard, the max pressure and temperature of the compressed mixture goes down, this because the gases expand in the same time than the piston goes down, just lower pressure and temperature will avoid pinging, but the engine will loss efficiency, i.e., horsepower.

    Bruno
  • shriqueshrique Posts: 338
    I'm still getting that rattle when the car is cold and below 2500rpm's. Someone once posted that their was a TSB or something coming out about it. Just wondering if anything every happened on that. One theory was that it was the computer messing with the timing when the engine is cold that caused the rattle.

    2002 Protege5
  • dsm6dsm6 Posts: 813
    From an earlier post:

    "2.0L Engine Noise
    This is what Mazda has to say about it, I think we should push them to come up with a fix faster, come on it has been a problem since the middle of 2000! What do you think? I would like someone to explain the jargon that they use VTCS plates? what are there function? What does ECT stand for and what is its function? Also they use the term "believed" to be the problem which means they are not sure or are trying to limit their responsability!
    The dealer noted the noise and gave me a bulliten from Mazda.
    Category: B Piston Engine
    Repair Reference # 3562
    Subject: 2.0L Engine noise with cold coolant temp
    ALL 2.0L between 2001-2002 are affected
    Customer may experience an engine rattle under light to moderate acceleration with engine coolant temps below 149 deg F and engine rpm's between 1500 to 2500.
    Confirm noise only occurs within the VTCS ( Variable Tumble Control System) operation "valve closed" period (when ECT is below 149 deg F)
    This noise is currently believed to be the result of the timing between VTCS plates "opening", and the ignition spark advanc command. This is an operating characteristic of this engine and no repair attempts should be made. Although the noise is present only during cold start up and disappears once the engine coolant reaches 149 degrees F, Mazda realizes that it is an annyance to some customers and its engineers are investigating possible countermeasures in an effort to address customer satisfaction. "
  • newcar31newcar31 Posts: 3,711
    It has something to do with emissions. I think if Mazda "fixed" it, the car would no longer be a ULEV which is why Mazda is twiddling their thumbs on this one and hoping people won't care. It isn't just the "rattle" that I notice, there is also a slight decrease in power in the affected RPM ranges. It does go away when warmed up. I think it is just a programming band-aid to get the old 2.0L ULEV compliant. I'd bet there is a way to rig it so that you do not experience this, but your car will no longer be ULEV. Usually Maltb can help out with these kinds of things, but for some reason, he's been avoiding this subject like the plague. ??????
  • boggseboggse Posts: 1,048
    VTCS is essentially the modern replacement for a choke as I understand it. I have no idea how it works. ECT is obviously Engine Coolant Temperature. So far, I am lucky in that I do not experience this. :)
  • newcar31newcar31 Posts: 3,711
    That's weird. All 2.0L engines are affected.
  • boggseboggse Posts: 1,048
    The TSB states:

    Customer may experience an engine rattle...

    I, thankfully, do not.
  • newcar31newcar31 Posts: 3,711
    "ALL 2.0L between 2001-2002 are affected"

    It is VERY slight and I don't know if I would call it a rattle. Most people wouldn't notice it, but I am really picky when it comes to cars. Besides, if only some of them did it, then Mazda would figure out what is different from the affected engines and fix it. What Mazda is saying now is that ALL of them do it and it is normal. If all of them DON'T do it, then it is not normal. If yours truly doesn't do it, then what is different between your engine and mine? See what I am getting at?
  • shriqueshrique Posts: 338
    itself isn't that apparently. I can only hear it when the windows are open and I'm driving past something that will reflect the sound back. The only thing that's slightly noticable is a slight decrease in power when the car is cold and below 2500 rpm or so. After that it picks right up and starts to feel just like normal.

    I finally got rid of some of the "roughness" of the engine at high RPMS by changing to synth. Now I want to track down this other niggling little issue.
  • bluong1bluong1 Posts: 1,927
    I can never notice decreasing of power as I never push my car when it's still cold.
  • newcar31newcar31 Posts: 3,711
    If you read the TSB, you'll notice that they say "light to moderate" throttle. I don't push my car either when it's cold but I can still notice the slight (and I mean SLIGHT) drop in power. It feels like the A/C compressor turning on, but it's not. (Yes, I know the HVAC control setting has the A/C on if you don't select "face".)
  • bluong1bluong1 Posts: 1,927
    any engine at cold temperature?
  • dsm6dsm6 Posts: 813
    I hear it, and feel it, quite well even when not pushing the car.

    IIRC, the person who made the original post I quoted above was going to check again - but didn't report back with anything new to add.

    I believe it is indeed an emissions measure to reduce emissions during the warm-up period (when cars tend to pollute the most), in combination with reducing engine warm-up time, through fine tuning of the intake stage (through VTCS) and spark advance, used only until the engine warms up as indicated by the ECT.
  • dsm6dsm6 Posts: 813
    is exactly coincident with the rattle, in an on-off-on pattern, as if the throttle is lifted a bit as you accelerate.
  • bluong1bluong1 Posts: 1,927
    It seems that I never experience what you guys described either. Lucky me.

    Bruno
  • dsm6dsm6 Posts: 813
    From Edmunds of all places (gee, imagine that):

    "The variable tumble control system reduces emissions on cold-starts by promoting greater swirl within the combustion chamber."

    Anybody have an technical details on how it works? I'm starting to see what might be going on here, but its hard to know without knowing exactly what VTCS does.
  • newcar31newcar31 Posts: 3,711
    how some people experience this and others don't. According to the TSB, ALL 2001-2002 2.0L engines are affected. Either you guys aren't noticing it, or there is a difference between our engines. If there is a difference between our engines, then there HAS to be a way to correct it. ???????????????
  • bluong1bluong1 Posts: 1,927
    it's called "manufacturing tolerance." Unfortunately, one can't possibly dream of a zero tolerance mechanical piece. Let's me say it again: one can of course dream, but it doesn't exist. Also I live in Houston where the temperature is pretty warm.

    Bruno
  • I once heard a sound clip of the death rattle. It was awful and I know that my Pro doesn't do that. However, maybe there are different intensities of the sound...ie. worse in some Pro's than others.

    What I have noticed is that you have to be very careful w/ the throttle when the car is cold, otherwise it's like it almost stalls.
  • maltbmaltb Posts: 3,572
    I have driven some with it and some without it. It doesn't happen in all of them.
  • bluong1bluong1 Posts: 1,927
    the engine is noisier when it's "really" cold (< 40 deg. Far), may be it's just at the border of what's called "rattle".
  • dsm6dsm6 Posts: 813
    Right, it's tolerances, and the better built/stronger/more powerful engines do it, whereas the wimpy "Friday car" engines don't. ;-)
  • newcar31newcar31 Posts: 3,711
    If that's the case, what's the difference between those that do and those that don't? Sorry, but I don't buy the manufacturing tolerances idea. This is a programming issue, not a manufacturing issue. If some do and some don't, then Mazda needs to reword their TSB so that it doesn't say "all 2.0L from 2001-2002". Like I said before, if some do and some don't, then it can and SHOULD be fixed.
  • maltbmaltb Posts: 3,572
    wish I could tell you though. Somewhere, somebody probably knows but it could be a $/effectiveness equation that keeps it from being known.
  • bluong1bluong1 Posts: 1,927
    "This is a programming issue, not a manufacturing issue."

    Could it be one is the cause, the other is the cure? But again, all that are suppositions.
  • newcar31newcar31 Posts: 3,711
    The fact that some engines do this and others don't is very troubling and proves that it is not a "normal operating characteristic". Mazda's own TSB contradicts itself. First it says "ALL 2.0L between 2001-2002 are affected". Then it goes on to say:
    "Customer *may* experience an engine rattle"

    Well, if all of the engines are affected, then the "Customer *WILL* experience an engine rattle". It's really simple logic. I'm affraid Maltb answered my question already though and it's not the answer I wanted to hear...
  • This thread brings back found memories of years past defending the " zoom factor " of our 1.8 as the 01 model year arrived. I'll take my 00 ES 1.8 over the 2.0 any day.

    Regards,
    Mark.
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