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Toyota Tundra Problems

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Comments

  • ndahi12ndahi12 Posts: 235
    What is up AK? First you say you want to race and now you do not respond. That is very...
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    I know the feeling...........from you.

    Forged piston question comes to mind

    Oil filter drain back valve and "dry starts" is another.
  • ndahi12ndahi12 Posts: 235
    So what is your point? I make mistakes. Yes I do. Do you have a problem with that? I still have a modded car that I did. I still race at the track roughly once a month.

    It is still correct that if you do not have a good oil filter with a good anti-drian back valve in it, you might have more start-up clatter. That is a factor in start-up clatter.

    It is also correct that forged pistons pistons Shrink more when cold than non-forged ones and that also has an impact on start-up clatter.

    Please prove me wrong or STFU.
  • ak4x4ak4x4 Posts: 126
    Where is this raceway?? I said I am shipping the car in the summer. Like April or Mayish. I am not going to drive an M3 in Ice and Snow. I would be the fishtail king. I know we can do a few laps, but in racing would we even be in th same class?? Shoot me some weights, and HP ratings for your car. I have not dynoed my car yet but Active says it is in the 400 range. And you do have a turbo??? Just curious what kind you have. Pal's GST ran 440hp with a 20G and custom intercooler... Shoot me the info and we can set something up. Go to www.Activeautowerke.com to see what they can sdo.
  • ak4x4ak4x4 Posts: 126
    Would I need to install a roll-cage??? Just curious.
  • ndahi12ndahi12 Posts: 235
    The car weighs around 2300 lbs and puts down 163 WHP. It does not have a turbo. We cannot dod door to door racing since this is a hotlapping event and not a racing event. There will be other events during march or april. I go to events approx once a month. Go here and look up their schedule, pick up an event and tell me you will be there and I will meet you http://www.open-track.com/ot_general/ot_schedule.html


    You do not need a roll cage, just a helmet.

  • ndahi12ndahi12 Posts: 235
    Mod maybe this proof is enough to convince you about cold weather and forged piston slap:


    Piston Slap

    Piston rattle or slap when an engine is cold indicates too much clearance between pistons and cylinders. This may be due to excessive assembly tolerances or worn cylinders. Some forged pistons have a higher rate of thermal expansion than cast pistons, and may require slightly greater cold clearances to compensate. This, in turn, may produce some unwanted piston noise when a cold engine is first started, but it has no effect on piston performance, durability or longevity.


    http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/ar80125.htm

  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    My only questions to you in the past(that you conveniently ignored) is that you said the start up clatter was caused by an empty filter leaving the top end dry. I explained to you that a filter should not go dry(at least overnight) if it's a quality filter with a good drain back valve. I'm glad you acknowledge that now.

    You then posted the forged piston link( gotta laugh at the shrinking piston comment though) I simply asked if the toy had forged pistons.

    I did not attack you like your fellow toy brother did. I just simply want to know if the toy clatter in 60% of tundras is due to lack of oil upon start up or larger clearances for the pistons that forged units require. Basically you've given 2 reasons why there is cold start up noise. One reason shouldn't happen if you use a quality filter and the other wouldn't hold water if the motor doesn't use forged pistons. Please read the first two sentences of your link....Thank you.

    Pretty sure I also explained to you there are forged pistons out there that will allow .002-.003 piston to wall clearance which is near cast piston clearances. TRW makes 'em and I used them in a 5.0 build up. Guess what? NO CLATTER!!!

    I admit I get a kick at some of the comments made(not just by you). The disc vs drum comment about surface area and drums are better was a classic. I just was hoping you could explain your reasoning about clatter. A clatter which I don't feel should be accepted whether it be a toy GM or Ford.

    On a side note;
    I've killed cones in my Cobra and drag race it at the track quite a bit. After taking a ride in one of the Richard Petty stock cars around LVMS at "only" 160 I realized I'm no where near a race car driver. Anyone that thinks that NASCAR doesn't involve real driving should try that out sometime, it was a rush.
  • ndahi12ndahi12 Posts: 235
    All the talk about clatter is plain SPECULATION. no one knows why this happens. There are many theories out there.

    1. It can be caused by the oil filter. Anti-drainback valves ar not bullet proof. Oil will seep through the filter back into the oil pan over night. Why is that so hard to believe. Oil settles in the oil pan overnight. When you start the car the next day it is noisey until the oil circulates properly in all the moving parts.

    2. It can be caused by the use of forged pistons. According to this person "Forged pistons also run 18% to 20% cooler than cast pistons because the metal conducts heat away from the combustion chamber more quickly. This reduces the risk of detonation – but the trade-off is greater thermal expansion in the piston. Consequently, forged pistons require greater installed clearances which increases cold start noise and blowby."

    3. I doubt that hypereutectic pistons cause clatter because they resist thermal expansion better than "regular" pistons. here is a quote "Hypereutectic pistons are used in some original equipment engines. They are favored because of reduced scuffing, improved power, fuel economy and emissions. The reduced thermal expansion rate allows the piston to be run with reduced clearance. A tight piston is less likely to rock, make noise, and burn oil. A rocking piston wears rings and increases blow-bye."

    What type of pistons does chevy use in its truck engines?
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    1. It can be caused by the oil filter. Anti-drainback valves ar not bullet proof. Oil will seep through the filter back into the oil pan over night. Why is that so hard to believe. Oil settles in the oil pan overnight. When you start the car the next day it is noisey until the oil circulates properly in all the moving parts.
    --------------------------------------------------

    Here's where I question you. The drain back valve may let the oil back into the filter but it will not all go into the pan, The filter will remain full.(unless it's mounted up side down) This may cause clatter (with Fram filters being notorious for cardboard valves). But a quality filter SHOULDN'T do it and if it does you should change it. My guess is if your motor still clatters after 1 or 2 Mobil 1 filters or K&N's or WIX it most likely is not the culprit.
    --------------------------------------------------

    2. It can be caused by the use of forged pistons. According to this person "Forged pistons also run 18% to 20% cooler than cast pistons because the metal conducts heat away from the combustion chamber more quickly. This reduces the risk of detonation – but the trade-off is greater thermal expansion in the piston. Consequently, forged pistons require greater installed clearances which increases cold start noise and blowby."
    --------------------------------------------------
    I know that forged pistons expand at a greater rate and have larger initial clearances. Ford uses forged in their trucks and had a problem for a while before tightening up the tolerances.
    JUST BECAUSE A MOTOR RUNS FORGED INTERNALS THIS DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN IT WILL HAVE COLD PISTON SLAP. Witness the '87-92 mustang GT's that had forged pistons. Does toy use forged pistons???
    I've said it before and will say it again; if a motor clatters because of loose forged pistons it means the tolerances aren't as tight as they could be and there is just that much less "cushion" before rebuild
    --------------------------------------------------

    3. I doubt that hypereutectic pistons cause clatter because they resist thermal expansion better than "regular" pistons. here is a quote "Hypereutectic pistons are used in some original equipment engines. They are favored because of reduced scuffing, improved power, fuel economy and emissions. The reduced thermal expansion rate allows the piston to be run with reduced clearance. A tight piston is less likely to rock, make noise, and burn oil. A rocking piston wears rings and increases blow-bye."
    --------------------------------------------------
    Your point??? If a motor has piston knock on hyper pistons I would say that the tolerances are too loose.....see my theory above about longevity.
    --------------------------------------------------

    What type of pistons does chevy use in its truck engines?
    --------------------------------------------------

    Don't know.

    Epilogue;

    One of the few things I've EVER agreed with bama on is that a new engine should not clatter on start up. If it's a filter drain back problem; change filters. If it's loose piston tolerances, I feel the manufacturer should remedy it (early Ford 4.6/5.4)

    In your poll 40% did not clatter. Why???
  • ak4x4ak4x4 Posts: 126
    What you lose in Hp you will gain in weight. But I do have a Turbo. I don't think it will make a difference. You do have a weight advantage. I'll take a look and get back to ya. Will my motorcycle helmet(An ARAI) full-face be suffecient?? I might install better belts though.
  • bamatundrabamatundra Posts: 1,583
    "In your poll 40% did not clatter. Why??? "

    Because 40% of the respondents to his poll actually owned Tundras?
  • ndahi12ndahi12 Posts: 235
    The clatter is common due to the use of forged pistons. And I have read two articles by engine builders that say so. I suggest you read these.


    http://www.automotiverebuilder.com/ar/ar129832.htm

    http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/ar80125.htm


    Here is a direct quote from the second article:

    Piston rattle or slap when an engine is cold indicates too much clearance between pistons and cylinders. This may be due to excessive assembly tolerances or worn cylinders. Some forged pistons have a higher rate of thermal expansion than cast pistons, and may require slightly greater cold clearances to compensate. This, in turn, may produce some unwanted piston noise when a cold engine is first started, but it has no effect on piston performance, durability or longevity.

    Now about the poll. I think those who report no clatter either live in warmer climates or start their trucks in warm garages. In my truck, I only started hearing the three distinct taps on start-up when the weather became colder in SoCal. I voted in the poll that my truck had no star-up clatter, but now it does due to colder weather. I suspect the same is happening with other truck owners. Moreover, i mostly hear mine when I start the truck with the door open. With the door shut I hear nothing.

  • bamatundrabamatundra Posts: 1,583
    Just curious - How many of the people who responded to your poll actually own Tundras?
  • bamatundrabamatundra Posts: 1,583
    "The clatter is common due to the use of forged pistons."

    It is too bad that the Tundra uses cast pistons. Nice theory anyway. I suggest you resume posting when you know what you are talking about. Have a nice day.
  • ndahi12ndahi12 Posts: 235
    please show me a link to prove that the Tundra has cast pistons. I am not taking your word for it. This is the Internet and a lot of stuff is said w/o proof.

    As for the poll, I explained to you in details the shortcoming of internet polling. There is no need to repeat that again.
  • bamatundrabamatundra Posts: 1,583
    "This is the Internet and a lot of stuff is said w/o proof."

    Oh - Do you mean your claim that the Tundra has forged pistons? LMAO!
  • ndahi12ndahi12 Posts: 235
    Fine, prove me wrong? Show me that the Tundra does NOT have forged pistons.
    You believe in evidence, right? I could be wrong, but so could you.
    Why is your claim w/o proof more legitimate than mine?
    Please find evidence that the Tundra has Cast alloy pistons.
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    Why so stubborn??? I've read your links and AGREE for the most part(not on the longevity part, however). Have you read it???? Please note the first two sentences. Thank you, drive through.
  • bamatundrabamatundra Posts: 1,583
    Ndahl:

    "Fine, prove me wrong? Show me that the Tundra does NOT have forged pistons."

    You are making some sweeping claims about Tundras and engine knock. You are attributing it to non-existent forged pistons. When you can back up what you post with fact, do so. It will greatly help your credibility.

    You are even posting in GM topics claiming to be an expert there. Heck, you don't even know what type pistons Tundras have - a truck you claim to own. You need to get your act together.
  • Is the engine knock afflicting 60% of tundras, (and possibily the other 40% as well) happening because forged pistons expand more than cast pistons, and therefore require more clearance in the bore for expansion? Or is Bama correct, that the pistons are cast? And that excessive groove clearance for the rings lets the cast iron piston rattle, ping, and bang against the cylinder bore since the ring can't support it?
  • ak4x4ak4x4 Posts: 126
    Hey guys Ndahi12 is correct with his claims... But I do not know the answer to his claim that the 2000 Tundras have the forged pistons. The only way to know is to get an answer from a Toyota tech. I do know that the Lexus linehas been using them in the 8 cylinder 400's for a while. And since his engine shares that patform I would support his claim. Plus it is Toyota...
  • bamatundrabamatundra Posts: 1,583
    Two members of the Hyundai Knockerado (Quad, AK) pack check in to tell us all about Tundra engine knock. They need to defend their wounded runt - Ndahl.

    Quad - you are confused as usual - the Knockerados have problems with loose rings. Just go to the GM engine knock forum and read all about it. No need to thank me.

    Ak - The Lexus 470 and Toyota Landcruiser use the exact same part number cast hypereutectic pistons as the Tundra.

    And AK - towing in 4WD giving you more towing capacity? You have got to be joking! Is this the best the Chev pack could come up with?
  • modvptnlmodvptnl Posts: 1,352
    A very short while ago(according to our professor with a High School degree) it was because DOHC engines lose all their oil in the top end and start dry which is totally normal....until now with the new links supporting the forged piston theory. Next week it'll be something else...perhaps loose muffler bearings.
  • ak4x4ak4x4 Posts: 126
    Where are you getting your info?? You're telling me that a 4x4 engaged cannot haul more then a 4x2?? Heres some numbers off the '01 Rado 1500 4x4 vs Rado 4x2 for reference. They can be found at any local Chevy dealer with a 2001 Rado Catalog.

    Ball Hitch Towing

    Rado 4x2 with 3.42 gears:6600 lbs
    Rado 4x2 with 3.73 gears:7600 LBS

    Rado 4x4 with 3.73 gears:7300 Lbs
    Rado 4x4 with 4.10 gears:8300 LBS

    All are with auto(like mine) and a 6 1/2 foot bed

    Heres some 5th wheel info for ya.

    Rado 2wd with 3.42:6600 lbs
    Rado 2wd with 3.73:7600 LBS

    Rado 4x4 with 3.73:7300 LBS
    Rado 4x4 with 4.10:8300 LBS.

    Still think I am lying?? Go to any GM site to see for yourself. They should have the numbers for the 2001 line still. If not get a brochure from any Chevy Dealer. Also take a look at your Tundra's broschure sometime. Take the specs of a 4x2 and compare to a 4x4. And the little Tundra 4x2 owner can't stand that he can get outpulled by any 4x4 out their(Tundras included) and I'll tell you what Bama, Since all you guys do in Bama anyway is eat, after dinner take apart your engine and tell us what you think it has?? And since you live in Alabama and own what you own I would watch out for the lynch mob son. That's not a good Truck decision in the south....
  • ak4x4ak4x4 Posts: 126
    My engine dosen't knock. Maybe since I take care of it unlike others. I think the ring problem is due to the fact that GM's crappy coolant deteriotes the seals of the rings while cooling the engine. And Bama heres a hard one for ya. We guys get teased by all the drivers for this one. You spin an engine to 5000 RPM's. Now do the pistons stop before they come back up??? Just curious o see what your answer is... And why are you such a GM expert... It's probably since you get teased for your truck when you go t the local Winn-Dixie and all....
  • ak4x4ak4x4 Posts: 126
    All this coming from a guy who thinks a 4x2 can outpull a 4x4(Which it cannot). But he continues to LHAO. Since he's the expert I would like to see how he knows all the facts.
  • >A very short while ago(according to our professor with a High School degree) it was because DOHC engines lose all their oil in the top end and start dry which is totally normal....until now with the new links supporting the forged piston theory.<

    Dry starts are not a problem for the knockwrust Tundra. According to Bama, toymota made them hard to start just for this purpose, circulating the oil before that nasty spark smokes the oil film off the walls, and the associated galling, scuffing etc. LMAO!!!
  • ndahi12ndahi12 Posts: 235
    I am not making sweeping claims. As I said before all this is SPECULATION. We do not know for sure why the cold start-up knock happens. All we know is that IT DOES HAPPEN.

    Form that point we need to find out why it happens so we propose theories to try and explain. At least I am trying to explain why it happens. What have you contributed as to the cause of cold start-up? All you do is reject all explanations and YOU DO NOT provide alternatives.

    Please tell us why does the Tundra have knock on cold start-up?
  • ndahi12ndahi12 Posts: 235
    "You are attributing it to non-existent forged pistons."

    Please prove to me that the Tundra uses cast pistons. Simply repeating it over and over again does not make it true.

    You have not provided me with one iota of evidence that the Tundra uses cast pistons. Please provide me with evidence that the Tundra uses hypereutectic cast pistons.

    I am waiting
This discussion has been closed.