Jeep Liberty

bblaha

Sorry, I'm doing my nails.

stever

LOL, bblaha :-)

Steve
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s852

An Axiom does not have a "car-like" ride. The ride is stiff and truck-like. It is bigger, heavier and more expensive than a Liberty.

paisan

But compared to other truck based SUVs it's very car like IMHO.

-mike

zeen

I thought the Axiom suspension was very compliant.
The two vehicles are quite different. The Axiom is bigger and heavier. The reason it came up was that the price of a loaded Liberty is quite close to the likely price of an Axiom. The Axiom seems like more for the money. The Liberty will be selling for around sticker while the Axiom may be selling for around invoice.

s852

It remains to be seen whether the Axiom will be available for around invoice or if the buying public will be willing to pay full MSRP for a Liberty instead of buying an Escape or something else similar.

rsholland

Just picked up a brochure on the new Liberty. It's pretty text-intensive—a lot of info.

Bob

iamdarnoc

I was just told my dealer will definantly have a Liberty or two this week! Then i was told he already had six guys already signed for their own Liberty. Cannot wait for a test drive!

countsmackula1

Yes, Paris-Dakar should be the judge of if a 4wd lives or dies. As for the pricing issue, people should NOT be willing to pay sticker for a non-specialty, mass-production vehicle. Patience, in this case is a definite asset to the buyer. TELL the dealer that you know what it's worth and that you'll take your business elsewhere. I'm not exactly wealthy, so I can't just cruise in and say "I want one". A friend of mine's Mom ( who, just between all of us, has more money than sense) paid around 26,000 for a Chysler van that should have cost around 21,000. I checked exact figures. The dealer had a "cat that ate the canary expression" on his face the entire time, and I swear he danced a jig on the way back inside the building!! I simply can't feel sorry for a buyer who has the mentality that they want one ,and negotiation is too much trouble, or a buyer who isn't armed to the teeth with information before they even set foot on a lot.

paisan

You do realize they don't run stock vehicles in these races...

-mike

bobcatbob

Well, then if Paris-Dakar is the way to judge 4x4's, we'd all be driving Mitsubishi Montero's and Kia Sportage's.....

Now, I agree with you on the pricing issue...Any consumer that is ill-informed or quick to buy is going to get hammered on price, as well as, quality.

What really surprises me is few people commneted on the smaller cargo area, behind the second row of seats. This is a major concern for me. Well, that and the fact that Jeep is now saying a moonroof order will take 45 days extra.

rsholland

The Cargo area is indeed much "shorter," front-to-rear than the Cherokee. However, it is also much taller, and there is no spare tire to take up space.

I was looking through the Liberty brochure last night, and I didn't see any mention of a cargo/dog barrier being available from the factory. I know Subaru, Volvo and others offer such a feature. It's a useful feature if you need to stack cargo high.

Also, I noticed that roof rack cross bars are now optional on all models.

That's one thing that has always irritated me about Jeep: they nickel-and-dime you to death with options. Hardly anything is standard. On Subaru, for example, every vehicle they sell here in the USA comes standard with power windows, air conditioning, and ABS. In addition, the '02 base Forester comes standard with cruise control, a cargo cover, and a full-size spare tire. Most of what I listed is optional on all Libertys.

Bob

bobcatbob

Bob:

What I am looking for is a deeper area for cargo. Wider and taller doesn't really do much for me. I, however, totally agree with your assessment of the the Jeep nickel and diming of buyers. I configured a Limited with all the options I wanted and it added almost 7K to the vehicle price.

Have you seen any Liberty's here in MD yet?

paisan

has almost no options, almost everything is packed in there already, one of the nice things about the smaller manufactuers like subaru and isuzu is they can't have 10,000 configurations for the plants to crank out, so they include a lot of equipment.

-mike

drew_

As a matter of fact, they do have a stock vehicle class in the Paris-Dakar rally. It's called the T1 class, and the only additions they're allowed to have are safety hardware, and the provided GPS nav. equipment. Even the carpeting and wood trim has to remain! The tires are special, of course. The MB M-class won the T1 class last year, placing 1st, 3rd, 10th, and 14th places.





Drew
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paisan

And I'm sure there are other modifications that are added. I've never seen any kind of road-race type thing w/o having some modifications. (shocks, struts, muffler, gas tank, lights, etc. etc.) It's like the stock class in autocross, it's stock but not stock. Although that one looks pretty stock.

-mike

drew_

Yes, the gas tank is considered a safety item, so it has been reinforced and they added a secondary tank since they have to travel across the desert. However, the suspension components, transmission, differentials, etc. are all absolutely stock, as required in the T1 unmodified class. There was a special segment on this in Speedvision's rally coverage, as well as an interview with the driver, which is why I know about this.

To make sure that there is no tampering after the initial vehicle inspection, the rally officials put special marks/seals on the components. That is why it is impressive that the ML could win the race, especially in its stock form. There are more pictures here: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=137587&a=5247461&f=0&sp=0

You may find this interesting too: http://www.whnet.com/4x4/trips.html#dakar

I don't believe they race at night, so lights are probably not an issue. Anyway, I digress... :-) Hope to see you in tonight's Subaru chat!


Drew
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Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards

rsholland

Liberty sightings yet. Perhaps next week??

Bob

sdesort

Well, I visited a third Jeep dealer this week, and any vehicle ordered with "GWA" (power moonroof) will NOT be built. The vehile will be placed into hold status because of a supply problem. Any Jeep dealer wishing to receive a vehicle that was ordered with GWA should delete the moonroof so the vehicle will be released to production.

I think Ford is having the same problem with Escape with moonroofs.

But, then I find this out. Jeep is offering 1.9% financing on Grand Cherokees. So, comparing a Liberty at $27000 with a 7.15% rate from peoplefirst.com, and a GC Laredo 4.0I6 with the New England package at $29400 with 1.9% from DC, the Grand cherokee is actually CHEAPER after you pay the damn thing off in 5 years. Comparing the 2 vehicles, it seems you get more for your money in the GC! Tried and true I6, much more room, most kinks worked out, 2 solid axles (opinions vary), and virtually the same gas mileage. Granted, the GC is not as fully equipped as the Liberty at $27K, but except for the leather, heated seats and upgraded stereo, it's pretty close.

It's hard to make a decision without a single Liberty to be seen at any dealership near me yet. But I did drive a GC for the first time, and aside from a soft seat, I was quite impressed with the ride and handling. Far better than any SUV I've driven, small or mid-size included.

Decisions, decisions.....

--
Scot

paisan

For $27K I'd be going for a Trooper LS w/moonroof. It's bigger than the GC, has a huge moonroof, power is about par, maybe slightly less, has heated power seats, 6-cd changer, and every other thing except leather. Just something to contemplate. I know when I went out last year to get my SUV, I crosshopped: Durango, GC, PF, Montero, Trooper and Outback. I liked the Monty best, but couldn't afford it. Trooper's out the door price was outstanding for what you got.

-mike

tinoman1

I saw the bulletin about the moonroof at the dealer. I believe it was dated 4/25 and it basically said what you said, and, that a 30-45 day delay was expected. I suppose that delay is from 4/25 ?? not from your order date. I ordered one with a moonroof on 5/1. the dealer at that time said 4-8 weeks so I will tack on the extra 6 weeks for moonroof delay & I guess I'm looking at up to 14 weeks from 5/1 (brings me to the middle of aug which is actually when I need the vehicle).

I would suspect that the moonroof problem is on the supply end, not in the design.

gsogymrat

I see that Jeep is offer $2000 on certain vehicles to people turning in a leased Jeep. Does anyone know if that only applies to another lease or if you decide to purchase a new vehicle? I know it probably won't apply to the Liberty but I am curious how it works.

bobcatbob

You are willing to wait 14 weeks (Sept 2001) for a vehicle that you have never test driven, never sat in, and never played around with? Have you considered anything else? Seems a bit too big of a leap for myself.

I think there are just too many variables to the Liberty at this juncture, to justify a 27K, no discount, vehicle. Because the dealer said he was going to give you 1200 off sticker doesn't mean he has to when the vehicle come in. He could see it is the hottest thing since sliced bread and decide to add a "market adjustment." Those who ordered PT Cruisers got price slammed at the dealer because they put a deposit down without a contract and the dealer felt free to add the aforementioned "market adjustment." I think Edmunds got hit with when they tried to buy a PT for testing too.

Pricing, initial quality, a new ground-up design, and Jeep's poor reliability should have you concerned. Remember too, Jeep has never done an IFS and solid rear axle combination.

With regard to the Moonroof, about 5 months ago Ford did have a problem with the Moonroof for the Escape/Tribute, but I am pretty sure that delay was due--honestly--to a factory burning down.

countsmackula1

Bobcat, I agree on every statement. The market adjustment thing is the money -making tactic with no effort involved. It's a no-brainer for the dealer. I talked with a sales manger yetaserday at a Chrysler dealer and he doesn't expect to have the Liberty until the first week in June. He's already sold seven, apparently at close to retail. I put my name on a list--not to order, they'll call me when they have a white Sport with a V-6 and Selec-Trac--or when hell freezes over!

tinoman1

well, I guess If I do end up waiting 14 weeks, I will have an opportunity to see, touch & hear about any faults the liberty has. I was promised this vehicle in 4-8 weeks if its longer, & I hear bad things about the liberty, I can always swing a deal for a GC on his lot. I also went to another dealer in the area & they have over 40 liberty orders for customers & another 20-25 for dealer stock - so I'm not the only one with a leap of faith here. I suppose that puts me in the demographic group jeep is targeting with this vehicle. I dont go off road, but want a solid vehicle that can take some punishment occasionally and want decent on-road manners.

bobcatbob

I am by no means being critical of your choices Tinoman, I just think that given so many variables I would not be as bold. So, call me Johnny Caution, but I'll be thinking long and hard abuot the Liberty and seeing what happens. The mooroof parts shortge isn't a good starting sign though...

Oh, and I am guessing that you are stuck with a Jeep because you said if the Liberty doesn't work, you can swing a deal for a GC.

And, lest anyone think otherwise, I am no fan of the Escape/Tribute either. I am just sick and tired of cars being made like crap and manufacturers thinking that the SUV craze will blind people into buying a bad car.

tinoman1

I had a mazda tribute on order for 3-months and no sign of the dealer getting one for me. When I ordered that, my wife gave me one of those "better half" comments - "well if thats what you want dear".

she is now thrilled with the jeep purchase because she has always wanted one, so yes its liberty or GC I guess.

all DC would tell me in an e-mail was to keep in touch with my dealer for moonroof updates.

BTW - going to pick up my daughter from college next weekend near Buffalo and hoping to see a liberty there.

basepro09

I hear a lot of high prices for the Liberty on this board. But I've gone to about three or four dealers and they are willing to deal. I got a dealer to give me invoice for a 4WD or 2WD. Which come out to $21,800 and $19,800. Thats power everything, off-road group and cruise-control. For the 2wd just cruise and the 235's and power everything. I guess I don't need a moonroof or leather seats. I can always get a better stereo later if I want. The dealers have said that they don't have any waiting lists yet and are expecting the Liberty's to be in any time now. I can't wait to drive one. But I'm not sure, even if the rides good, if I'll order one now or wait till the bugs are worked out. Although I've heard that DC is really taking it's time to make sure everything is going to work right. But then again they could just be trying to sell it. Oh yeah, the 4wd was with command-trac with that price. But just add $300 and you've got the price for the select-trac.

bobcatbob

Admittedly my "price survey" is via two dealers, but both said "sticker plus a bit." This is in the Northern suburbs (Hunt Valley/Timonium) of Baltimore County, MD so that could be a contributing factor.

Also, doesn't DC allocate based on sales now? So, if you sell all of your Liberty's before they get there, you may be eligible to have more supply in sooner and jack up the prices on those... Who knows. Lets see them on the lots first and go from there.

As far as the wait on the Tribute.... would have probably switched dealers or gone for the Escape. I mentioned the production schism a few weeks back. The only thing I don't like about the Tribute is the rear control arms hanging so close to the road. Not good for going over obstacles or driving in serious ruts.

paisan

Until you have a sales reciept in your hand, or a sales contract w/o any small print, the dealer can always jack the price up after it arrives...

-mike

zeen

The $27K is the sticker on a fully loaded Liberty. The local dealer (Eastern PA) is selling at sticker and there is a waiting list. He is likely to go higher than sticker. You can get the price down significantly if you don't need leather, off-road package, heated seats, 4WD etc. Actually, leather in a Liberty may look somewhat out of place.

s852

If someone wants to buy a car that has not yet released and they put their name on a list to be notified or leave a deposit, that is a "waiting list."
That does not make the vehicle worth paying extra for unless it does something you desperately want that the competition does not.

sdesort

I have a $100 hold on a Liberty that is supposed to be arriving any day now. I spoke with the dealer today regarding the moonroof situation. He states that this Liberty was built before the parts shortage. Yes, it has been built and shipped from Ohio. We'll see.

If I don't like it when it comes in and I get a chance to see it and drive it, then I can walk away with my $100. If the truck sucks, I lose nothing. If it's what I want, I didn't lose the vehicle to someone else since it is being held for me. They are selling for list here in NJ at 3 dealerships I went to. But I also noticed that invoice on this truck is very high. Didn't I read somewhere that Dieter, or whatever the DC chairman's name is, ordered that the MSRP be lowered about $2500 from the original price for a fully loaded Liberty. I think that the difference between invoice and MSRP is somewhere around $1300. It's still a chunk of change when you add in dealer holdback, but it's not a ridulous amount of money. In the grand scheme of things, the fact that I will not be able to knock $500 off the price of the truck represents $10 a month at 7.15% for 60 months. It's really a non-issue.

I agree - it's not always wise to jump right in and wait to buy something site unseen. But I will NOT sign papers until I drive one. I don't have the luxury of waiting months for things to be worked out as I have a lease expiring in June. Timing is critical as this is my only vehicle. I have perhaps just answered a concern of my own - this being my only vehicle, the Liberty may not be a wise choice since everyone complains about Jeep's first-year reliability records. Perhaps I'll get a better feel for the quality of the truck when I see it.

I also wasn't particularly thrilled with photos showing the apparent shallow cargo area when the rear seats are up. While it may be tall (it would have to be to give 29 cu.ft. of space), in the photos it looks like it is about 2 feet deep.

If it doesn't work out, I think I will pick up a GC.

Regarding the Trooper, while it may be a good truck, I simply do not have any long-term faith in the survivability of Isuzu. I *think* there is *1* Isuzu dealer within 50 miles of me.

Regarding the $2000 loyalty incentive. That is a cash to lease incentive if you re-lease a Jeep GC coming from ANY Chrysler product lease, even if you leased from a bank. I guess they apply it like a cap-cost reduction to lower your lease payments. Leaving a Durango lease, I looked at this option, but I would really rather not lease anymore.

--
Scot

zeen

I saw the Liberty at the auto show and it looks like the rear has been chopped off. It's a very severe vertical line and the space behind the back seat is minimal. The height does you no good unless you could build a screen over the back seat. I like the front and the rear of the Liberty but from the side, it looks pretty cheapo.
I think the JGC gives you a lot more for the money.

s852

http://carpoint.msn.com/media/asx/jeep_liberty_interv_300.asx

paisan

Scot,
I'm not sure where in NJ you live, but there are several Isuzu dealers all over NJ. If in fact there is only 1 Isuzu dealership near you, I understand your not welcoming the idea. Happy shopping!

-mike

tinoman1

on the jeepunpaved website, under build my liberty, the ABS option is not listed anymore. Anyone heard about ABS supply Issues????

paisan

Jeez, I knew that american cars were stuck in the past, but 4wheel ABS is nearly std on most cars, kinda like A/C... Go figure.

-mike

rsholland

ABS is optional even on the most expensive Liberty.

It's these kind of nickle-n-dime type of issues which will hurt the Liberty, when compared with many of the new mini-SUVs, especially against the Forester, which is packed with high-value features, even in its most basic configuration.

Bob

tlcohio1

Im kinda new to this group, but I have a question for you. Looking back at your posts, you always seem to be highly critical of everyone else's posts, and it seems you really dislike the Liberty. That being said:

Why exactly are you posting on this board??

paisan

In fact if you look back, I was praising DC for going with the IFS instead of SAS for the Liberty. I think the liberty is actually going to be a big hit for DC if they can keep the reliability up.

-mike

rsholland

Compared to a number of other posters here, Mike has been down right kind.

Bob

rsholland

Anybody who doubts the impact of the new mini-utes on the SUV market, or disagrees with Jeep pursuing those customers should read this link:

Bob

http://www.sunspot.net/business/bal-bz.resale13may13.story?coll=bal%2Dbusiness%2Dheadlines

vin_weasel

I was just watching Car and Driver TV on TNN and they were demonstrating the off-road abilities of the Liberty. From what I saw, it definitely can do everything I would want it to do (20 inches of water at 10mph, almost 8 inches of clearance standard, 10 with the Up Country). One interesting thing they noted was that in 4 Low the engine timing changes to provide more Torque at lower RPMs. I don't know about 4-high, though. The announcers seemed impressed that Jeep managed to give off-roaders what they want by using a computer to change the characteristics of the engine under specific circumstances. They also demonstrated that if one wheel is up in the air, the rest can keep turning. I didn't get a real good look at it, so maybe someone else who caught it can expand.

I'm trying to pick up one of the last Cherokees right now buy maybe I'll wait for a Liberty. I haven't seen one in Canada so far.

sasquatch_2000

Actually, I am considering the Sportage. The Paris-Dakar connection certainly helps convince ME of its ability. (I know, they are not stock, but why aren't the others running then?)

sasquatch_2000

"I was looking through the Liberty brochure last night, and I didn't see any mention of a cargo/dog barrier being available from the factory. I know Subaru, Volvo and others offer such a feature. It's a useful feature if you need to stack cargo high."

(or if you have a dog!)

"...Subaru, for example, every vehicle they sell here in the USA comes standard with power windows, air conditioning, and ABS. "

Fine by me! Those are the things which I don't really want anyhow. Oh, and please deep six the alarm too.

milt721

a cargo/dog barrier for Liberty. See your dealer for details and price.

bblaha

Power windows: Nice, but not necessary
Air conditioning: Not nice to go without. Very necessary (as far as I'm concerned)
ABS: Very neutral for me. In fact, if Jeep made them standard I'd take it as yet another sign they are no longer interested in making offroad vehicles.

paisan

Um, you do realize that you can yank a fuse to disable ABS on most off-road vehicles such as the TLC, Trooper, 4Runner, etc. But this is circular discussion going back to the fact that 90-95% of all liberties won't be going more off-road than a gravel parking lot.

-mike

rsholland

Folks cross-shopping the Liberty with the other cute-utes, will find the the Liberty coming up short in a number of areas. To me, having such a low level of content, as compared to others, is a major marketing error on Jeep's part. They're still marketing the vehicle as if the the same level of showroom competition in 1984 exists today, which is clearly not the case.

As to ABS and off-roading... I know this is sometimes an issue for off-roaders. On the flip side, the Grand Cherokee and many other so-called "off-roaders" come with ABS standard.

Bob