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Pontiac GTO

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Comments

  • seekaineseekaine Posts: 8
    Washington, DC
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,546
    sputterguy....when I test drove the '05 GTO, I was surprised that it didn't have the "skip shift" either. I don't know if this is something that is "enabled" during prep....or if it was "secretly" left off the '05s.

    About the productions figures....a 70-day supply is not good (30-45 day supply is considered good).

    If the goal for the '05 is to sell 1,000/mo and they are only selling 670/mo, that's not good either.

    350Z vs GTO.....GTO....hands down. It's built better and from all reports has been rock solid from a build/engineering standpoint. Plus, it will be flat out faster and ride better.
  • jae5jae5 Posts: 1,205
    Also saw the vehicle on Speed Channel yesterday (not sure if it was the same show you saw months ago). Pretty much was self-explanatory, didn't really learn anything new but what was interesting was that myself and a lot of others on this board hit the nail on the head: great car on paper, but the car just doesn't have it in terms of passion and desire. Also, the marketing for this car is very confusing. Jim Wangers stated that Pontiac was positioning the car not to the muscle car crowd or the purists, but to the BMW owners, particularly the 3-series, and the like. But Pontiac didn't follow through. They said it but didn't execute. My thought was I don't think anyone outside of Pontiac knew that the intended market was BMW owners and the like. This was almost as laughable when John Coletti made the statement that the supercharged Mustang Cobra's main competitor was the M3 and the like. Give me a break! M3 buyers weren't even giving the Cobra a passing glimpse just as most BMW owners aren't giving the Pontiac a look either.

    When I was doing my car-buying "cross-shop" lists, the GTO didn't show up on any one of them. For example, on one list I had the G35 coupe, IS-300, BMW 330 coupe, BMW M3 (used), Audi A4/A6. The GTO didn't even come to mind. I also know a few BMW owners and none of them think of Pontiac when they talk about their vehicles or cross-shop for a replacement. And to go along with this, the few GTO commercials and other advertising bits have no mention of going after the BMW crowd; they're more toward hauling a**, burning rubber, and doing burnouts. Not really the thing BMW owners and the like look for.

    Also on the show were views from people test driving the vehicle and from those in different Pontiac groups at driving events or meets. Pretty much the same thing, "Nice car, great fit & finish, awesome power, but it ain't a GTO. Where's the hood scoop? Where's the split duals? Where's the rumble? Where the trunk? Where's the excitement?"

    As stated through-out the show, the car wasn't just competing against other vehicles, it was competing against itself, particularly the 64 - 72 models. A decent car, good power, but just doesn't have the "umphf", the "damn that's hot" (excuse the language); a good sleeper, but too much asleep.
  • white6white6 Posts: 588
    GM has become the "discount" maker. True, what got me in a new 04 GTO (in Sept. 04) was the same thing that got me in a new 04 Silverado (in July 04): major discounts. GTO MSRP was $33,495; purchase price $25,339. Silverado MSRP $28,950; purchase price $19,000 (plus a $500 Lowes Gift Card, so a net price of $18,500). These are after all the rebates/discounts, before taxes and trade-in. Are either of these vehicles the "best" on the market. Probably not. But, like the Silverado, the GTO provides everything I desire (and more) and it's impossible to beat the value at these prices.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,546
    jae....thanks for that update. That sounds different than the program I saw. The one I saw had Wanger driving around a race track with somebody who was allegedly some sort of "race star" (although, I'd never heard of him). He then took it out on the road and had mostly good things to say about it.

    Then there was a segment on "drifting" a GTO with some supposed drifter champion. That's also not something you're likely to see appeal to the BMW customer. That's the province of the younger crowd. Unfortunately, the drifting demographic can't afford a $33K car. It was fun to watch, though.

    I agree. There aren't going to be many folks prancing from the BMW store to the Pontiac or Ford dealer. I'm sure both GM and Ford want that to happen, but it's not.

    IMHO, in addition to the lack of marketing of the GTO, the little I saw of the marketing touted the current "iteration" as a "return of the GTO legend". In other words, they almost made it seem as if there was going to be some sort of retro GTO coming to market. As we all know, at least from a styling perspective, this wasn't the case.

    Having been a bimmer owner in the past, I can tell you that I cross shopped it with Audi and a Benz.....not a Pontiac. I didn't have any reason to do so, at the time. Still don't think I'd cross shop. M3s are very fast cars, too. As you say, doing a smoky burnout as part of the GTOs marketing campaign isn't going to cause anyone to meander from their BMW to Pontiac for no other reason than different dynamics of the two cars (which is quite different from each other). The only thing they really do have in common...BMWs are quick and so is the GTO.

    To add to all of this, Pontiac is stuck in a pricing quandary. '04s with big incentives still on the lots and '05s with no incentives while people are, for the most part, waiting for them to kick-in.

    I'll have to check out the Speed Channel show you saw. I'd like to see it if it ever comes on again.
  • 1meangto1meangto Posts: 1
    pontiac isnt advertising these cars at all. id say their selling pretty good with no advertising. its one of the most fun car's ive ever driven and ive driven alot of cars. i think pontiac would sell these cars alot more if they just did a little advertising.
  • hammen2hammen2 Posts: 1,313
    Yep, I agree - picked up the wife's loaded Envoy SLT (all options except air suspension, sticker approaching $41k) for $27k before trade and TTL back at the end of September. I couldn't touch any other SUV with those features for anything approaching that price.

    My bad luck run with recent GM vehicles continues, though, as the Envoy is at the dealership for service visit #4 (4WD system failed - car won't move if it's switched into 4WD - it's previously suffered from a cracked spark plug, a bad injector, and a bunch of ECM/PCM/transfer case software updates due to spurious 4WD error lamps, and hunting/slipping going up hills)...

    --Robert
  • hammen2hammen2 Posts: 1,313
    For GM, a 70-day supply is good. And I wonder how many of that 70 days are actually at dealerships, or on boats, sitting at Benecia, or are on trains/trucks en route to dealers.

    Also, I don't think they anticipate selling 1000 a month to reach the 12,000, considering it's winter in half the continental U.S. yet. Now, if they maintain the under-1k sale rate in April/May/June, then they have a problem. I think they're playing wait-and-see and holding back on incentives/rebates. Of course, they did that last year, too, not putting anything on the hood until July, and by then it was too late to move the huge backlog they had.

    --Robert
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,546
    Hope you're right. I've yet to hear any manufacturer (including GM) that thinks a 70-day supply of any model to be good....or even acceptable.

    You may be right about the "seasonal" thing regarding the GTO. But, if I'm in Lutz's shoes, I'd rather be hitting the monthly target right out of the chute when the "buzz" about a model is highest. If it ain't selling now, when all the auto shows have put them on the turntable and touted the LS2, hood scoops, real tail treatment, etc of the '05, then that tells me they're going to have even worse issues down the road in selling them when the "buzz" and the "new & improved status" from the car shows have died down, if not totally forgotten.

    I do want to see it succeed. But, it's in the middle innings and the home team is losing. In reality, the GTO has another 5 months to make up for lost ground. We'll see how they do. If it's going to make a move, the time is now. GM can't put a bandaid on it later in the year with incentives. By then, the game is already out of control.
  • Thanks tripower, lot's of good info.

    "Another good month for GTO given the inventory levels and time of year!
    - How can anyone say that with a straight face? If 318+ of the 1886 they sold so far this year are '04s, the '05s are CRAWLING off the lots. Where's the excitement/anticipation? I'm afraid there is none. At least not at $30K.

    I believe you're mistaken about eBay though. I just checked and since 2/17 only one car has actually sold. A used Barbados Blue (almost 7K miles) went for $24995. No other sales new or used with bids up to $23600.

    Robert - you are an eternal optimist. Two new GM car purchases recently and nothing but trouble from both.
  • jae5jae5 Posts: 1,205
    "...the little I saw of the marketing touted the current "iteration" as a "return of the GTO legend"...." I'm glad you mentioned this because it is one of the things I found funny about the program as well. There was a person on the show from GM, European accent, who is one of the team members responsible for bringing the Monaro over here. He stated that the purpose and push of the car was to bring excitement back to the brand, to bring a highly refined auto to compete with vehciles of its caliber. But as you stated, the marketing touted the car as the return of the GTO and its legend. This automatically leads most to think of the 64 - 72 goats, raw power and performance, not an Infiniti G35 or BMW 3-series. I was more excited when the redesigned GP, particularly the GTP and GT coupes, came out in '96 - '97? Don't like the current one at all.

    The show should be on again, it's American Muscle Car, so it'll re-run a gazillion times. Pretty good show, too many darn commercials though.

    Yeah, Pontiac, GM as a whole really, is stuck. As mentioned by yourself and another poster, GM is getting business due to the incentives and discounts, not really because their vehicles are "must haves".
  • jae5jae5 Posts: 1,205
    Tripower,

    Do you or your insider have information in terms of which cities or regions whithin the states are seeing the most action? I was shocked by Illinois being listed as #3. I've only seen two on the street since last summer (both in June). Of the rest I've seen, they have been at a few dealers' lots.
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    Washinton, DC. What a beautiful city. You must love to fire up the GT and cruise down those wide boulevards.
  • hammen2hammen2 Posts: 1,313
    If you were talking about the guy with the Aussie accent, that's Mike Simcoe. He's the guy that's pretty much responsible for the design of the Monaro, and he's been promoted higher in GM/now lives and works in North America.

    He personally hated the design changes (grilles, rear spoiler, hood scoops) that Pontiac made in "his" car.

    There seems to be a lot of territorial BS going on between GMNA and Holden. My wife used to work for a company that did a lot of tool & die patterns for GM, and she stays in touch with one of her old GM customers. He had nothing good to say about the GTO and said he'd never buy one. So, the negativity that Pontiac gets about the car comes even from people working at GM!

    --Robert
  • hammen2hammen2 Posts: 1,313
    Midwesttrader, you made the comment that I'm an eternal optimist, having purchased 2 new GM vehicles (GTO in August/September, Envoy in late September) and had nothing but trouble with them.

    I think I'm just unlucky. Either that or GM quality has gone noticeably downhill. My Aurora had some issues (AC compressor, multifunction switch, Northstar rear crankshaft engine seals) but my warranty covered those, and the car has been bulletproof for the last 30k miles. My wife's GTP was pretty solid for the 3 years we had it. She and I both had Luminas that were little more than gas, tires, and oil (also an alternator and battery) in 5+ years of driving. My '91 Grand Prix was great except for the common rear caliper/brake issues. Her '94 Grand Am was also bulletproof.

    I've never had a tranny problem in any GM car. The only engine problem I've had was the rear crankshaft seals on my Aurora.

    At this point, so early in my loans on these vehicles, I would probably do lucky to be even on the Envoy, and would take a bath on the GTO. Since I do have a warranty, I'm biding my time. Should the problems continue, I will be dumping them before the warranty expires.

    I have told my wife that it is no great certainty that my next vehicle will be from GM, employee discount and GM card dollars notwithstanding. I am in high hopes that my new GTO is as solid as virtually everyone else's has been.

    Marketing, styling, shoulda-woulda-coulda, when I drove my old car, I loved it. Can't wait for the snow to be gone!

    --Robert
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    "pontiac was positioning the car, not to the muscle car crowd, or the purists, but to the BMW owners". I think you have to take this as gospel. Remember the car comes from Australia and they take their design cues from Europe, not Asia or America. The only question is why in the world did they bring this Australian car, with BMW attributes, to America and call it a GTO. Calling it a GTO creates all these expectations that, as you have pointed out, have not been fulfilled. And the advertising for it is ridiculous as you have pointed out. It doesn't appeal to the BMW crowd and it doesn't appeal to us older guys. We don't burn rubber. We want to be able to, but we don't. Well, maybe a chirp or two here and there. And like that stupid movie they did, that was supposed to appeal to the younger crowd and I don't think it did. A concept car that failed its concept. I guess it could have been worse.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,546
    That GTO movie was the one Pontiac sent to me when I requested info in the '05 GTO. It was certainly not one of the better (or even mediocre) theatrical entities I've seen. And, you're right....it was geared towards an audience that can't even afford a GTO. That said, it did come with "extras" on the DVD that showed all the GTO commercials from its introduction to the present day's commercials (which I have to admit was the first time I had seen the current ones).

    I've seen the Monaro. That Aussie guy shouldn't be complaining. If they brought the Monaro over here without at least a minor re-style, none of them would have sold.

    GM has an image problem here in the states. I don't know what their image is in Australia, but short of the Corvette, which will get looks from the Porsche crowd, or the Caddy, which in current iterations may get some BMW cross-shopping, nothing else in their line-up will get even a nod from the Toyota/Honda crowd....let alone BMW or Audi.

    I qualify for GMS via my brother-in-law. And, even though I get great pricing, the only worthwhile GM I've had in recent years was my bulletproof GTP. Unless you want to travel back in time and remind me of the very first car I bought.....a well used Chevy with a 283 V8 in it. I don't know if I loved that car because it was my first car or not. But, it ran like the dickens.

    I've had a couple of GMs here and there over the years, but nothing that I'd look back on fondly.

    I'm trying really hard to make my case for a GTO, but am probably talking myself out of it. That should tell me something....the car has a 400 HP motor and I'm ambivalent about it. Maybe that should tell GM something, too. After all, I'm the guy who can afford one and the person GM is trying to market it to.
  • zingerzinger Posts: 61
    I have been trying to talk myself into this car for 4 months!
    The interior is well made but I guess I dont like the fact that you seem to be sitting way up high in it. The 350Z is the complete opposite. I just never felt in total control of the GTO when pushing it. The Z felt totally in control. My wife thinks the Z is cooler and is pushing me to get the Z even though it is a 2 seater.
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    GM blew the marketing of the GTO, pure and simple. I owned about 10 different GTOs during the '70s and '80s and I had no idea what the new one was about until relatively recently.

    A car that does not sell well upon launch rarely, if ever, gathers steam later. By the same token, one that does not sell well new does not hold its value as a used car.

    It pains me to say it but I can't see any reason why the GTO will be any different from the norm.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,546
    The Z is a nice car. I didn't like the "sitting in the bathtub" feeling I got since the door sills are so high. Plus, although the handling limits are high in the Z, you have to work hard to get the car to do what it's capable of doing. Lastly, everything felt heavy in the Z (much like the GTO). The difference between the Z and the GTO, is the GTO is faster and has better quality materials in the inside. The GTO rides firm, where the Z rides harsh. Then there's the issue of a back seat and room. What really sent me over the edge with the Z was I couldn't fit my golf bag in the back. Can't have that.

    Just my take, though. I'd never denigrate anyone in a Z. Funny, when I had my RX8, Zs were always hanging around on the road with me. And, vice versa.
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    I really, really, really hope they left the skip shift off the '05. I know it's easy to defeat, and usually I just drive through it. But sometimes it happens when you least expect it or at a very inopertune time. It can be very aggravating.
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    Well, well, well. $24K for a used GTO. That's a good sign that GTO's will hold their value.
  • zingerzinger Posts: 61
    Oh no graphicguy - the Z salesman told me I could fit 2 golf bags in the back. Of course I always believe what salesmen tell me. He also said he never heard of any problems with the Z especially not tire problems. I can fit 2 golf bags in my Celica no problem.

    Can you fit 2 in the GTO?
  • hammen2hammen2 Posts: 1,313
    As far as I've read elsewhere, the '05 sticks still have the skip-shift feature by default. It's easily defeated, though :-)
  • casoncasecasoncase Posts: 48
    Thanks, mattchalmers. Using different gears to vary RPM and engine load makes sense.

    Yes, the '05 has the skip shift. I rarely confront it though -- gotta hear/feel that grunt/rap, which is why I get bad mileage (14 city).

    Question: one of the dual pipes is a little off-center. The pipes are hung on rubber from very substantial welded components. There doesn't seem to be any way of re-positioning the pipe. Any ideas?

    My '04 Goat is on the dealer's lot for 25M.

    As to declining value, you know what? Wait until 2007 and you can get a really great deal on an '05; wait until 2010 and you can get three '05s really cheap! Buying a car is not like buying a stock, whose value can go up or down.

    How do you measure what a car -- or anything else -- is worth to you? By sales stats, or what strangers think about it? That's part of it, but not a great part. Even if I were filthy rich I'd have bought the goat. Don't know why, but a Carrera or S6 is just too snotty/elitist (and too frequently seen) for me. What was it she said? Different strokes for different folks?

    It turns out that the rarity of the new goat is a plus, for me. I guess that's why a 1964 Mack truck or Steerman bi-plane will always get my stare. How boring would it be to be one of a gazillion Mustang owners? "Oh, mine's red! Oh, mine's blue and it's a GT! And there's another one over there! And over there! Is that a Cobra? I don't know, I'll have to get closer so I can read the badging."

    On the other hand, when a goat rumbles by, noone wonders what it is.
  • white6white6 Posts: 588
    If they imported the Monaro CV8 EXACTLY as it is built (except make it left-drive, of course) I would be on it in a heartbeat. You can have your Pep Boys scoops and wings. The de-contenting and bling-bling tack-ons defeated the original purpose of this car... subtle and refined, but powerful. How can you seriously expect to attract BMW folks with the clunky HVAC controls and tacked-on wing (that also duplicates the high-mounted center brake light... so it looks even MORE like the afterthought that is was). Take a look at the Monaro and you won't see a big wing to block your rear vision. What you will find is electronic dual-zone climate control and memory for power seats and mirrors. Yeah, I know everyone says that if they included these things, the price would just be higher. Really? How much more can it cost to LEAVE OFF the wing? Or build all of them (Monaros and GTOs) built on the same line with the climate control system? Or include the memory seat function? I'd wager maybe $300, when you figure the economy of not having to build separate versions. I'm hoping they will integrate some of these into the 2006 model, but I'm not "Holden" my breath.
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    "I don't like the fact that you seem to be sitting way up high in it". This caught my attention because I felt that way too. I couldn't figure out why sometimes I just couldn't get the seat adjusted right. I mentioned this to the dealer in conversation and he said that the seats were 8-way and went up and down in addition to forward and backward and tilting. Say what? So we go out to my car and he pushes the knob down and the seat lowers an inch or two. I get in it and voila, I'm sitting lower, got plenty of head room, and am comfortable. Duh! If you are aware of the 8-way then nevermind. Otherwise try that and see how it feels. If that was the problem then you will also find yourself more in control. I hope that was it so you can go and snap up one of '04's. Or '05 if you prefer.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,546
    zinger....good luck fitting two golf bags in the GTO's trunk. It's every bit as bad as the 350Zs hatchback space.

    case...resale is looking bad on the GTO. If brand new leftover '04s are sitting on dealer's lots for $10K less than MSRP, then it's reasonable to think the '05s won't fare any better.

    As much as I think the GTO is a good car, in all reality, I fear it's destined for extiction after the '06 model year. Some will think that makes it a collectible. I personally think it will be considered a GM "bust" with little collectible value.
  • It's good to see that alot of readers of C&D wrote to thier "backfire" section about the lame Mustang GTO comparison. The GTO won in almost every catagory but they give it to the Mustang on the "got to have" factor. Cut me a break. It's good to see there are still some intelligent people reading that mag.
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    When I went to the dealer this week I also went to complain about my thunk in my trunk which last time they didn't fix. This time I was armed with the TSB that was posted by hammen. Thanks Robert. When I picked the car up the service rep pointed out my build date was later than the TSB would cover but they ordered the parts anyway and will install them when they come in. Hopefully that will take care of that problem.

    While I was there another salesman was checking out the '05 they brought over for me to drive. He has an'04 that is in the shop because the gear shift rattles or buzzes. I told him other guys have that problem too. He had it in before for that problem and even though he worked there they gave him the same song and dance about 'performing per specification' or something like that. He didn't accept that and I guess they are going to fix it for real this time.

    And finally, in the showroom was a red '04 6-speed. I checked the sticker on the window out of curiostity and it still said $3995 Dealer Markup. I laughed and said "$3995 Dealer Markup". Another salesman said no there was no markup on it. Well, take that crap off then. The car should have had a sale sign on it. I didn't bother to ask what they really wanted for it. I don't care and I know they would deal.
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