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2005 Subaru Legacy

sube555lgtsube555lgt Posts: 78
edited March 23 in Subaru
The rumor mill is starting to really ramp up. Now I won't give away all details, but I am hearing a 2.5GT with 250hp and plenty of torque. It is also said to very potentially carry a 6MT (probably for less warranty claims because of driver carelessness) as well as the 5EAT.

The word on the street is that they are still researching potential pricing on this matter. I would like to know where everyone sits on this. Now, I do know that everyone would like these for free, but try to be reasonable.

My ideas:
 -BASE includes: Cloth Interior, Manually-Adjusting Seats, No Sunroof, Manual Transmission, 6-Disc CD Changer w/ current premium sound (NOT Macintosh.)

*BASE Sedan GT: 25,595-25,995
 *BASE Wagon GT: 25,995-26,395

Limited or Premium Packages include: Power Leather Seating, Sunroof, Macintosh Audio
 *Sedan GT: 26,995-27,495
 *Wagon GT: 27,395-27,995
 
That would price these VERY competitively and rather reasonable. Taking away the luxury amenities (leather, power seats, etc.) for those that just want the sport and room should allow the Legacy to drop right into the given slots with the major upgrades and the cost difference. I would like to say I would love a base wagon in Silver but can't really afford to go above $26,000. I would settle for a sedan if need be. Anything significantly higher and I think they would be marketing themselves out of their price range. At this pricing, I think these vehicles would sell like hotcakes. Even if the BASE-type model was available only by order only, it would be well worth it for Subaru in my opinion.
 
Any thoughts?
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Comments

  • Either your base price is too high or the loaded price is too low. I'm guessing it could be a little of both. The current GT w/ leather and sunroof is $25,100 which is pretty maxed out except for the McIntosh. The price difference between NA and turbo models of Impreza (RS to WRX) is $4500 and on the Forester (XS to XT) about $1800 so I can settle on a $2000-2500 increase. Add in the McIntosh and the sedan will definitely break the $27,000 mark. I am hoping to see the most expensive model ending about $31,000 like the Outback VDC ($32,500 for wagon w/ dual sunroof). One thing that could cause an additional increase is the potential higher price of the Sportshift automatic.

    Basically, I think that a loaded Legacy needs to come in at the base price of a G35. If we're talking a G35 AWD, that will probably be about $32,000. Premium (sunroof, Bose, seat memory, power passenger, reclining rear seat, dual zone climate, etc.) is another $3200. If the Legacy doesn't hit this price, I may have a really hard time justifying the Subaru over an Infiniti.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    My proposal:

    L: delete moonroof, but keep the price the same with a slight boost in power, bigger interior, and a few extra niceties

    GT: 2.5 turbo engine substitute heated leather seats, keep pricing close to current car, maybe $500 higher. That's what I would want.

    GT Limited: equipped like the current 2.5GT, just $2000 more for the turbo.

    The current 2.5GT doesn't sell in significant volumes largely due to the price/performance. Meanwhile the L/SE is HOT and sells well, as a great value.

    -juice
  • Sorry, would have responded back a little sooner, been a little busy.

    I don't think the pricing I have up there is too far out on a limb. They used to market two varieties, a GT and GT Limited as Ateixeira mentioned. But I do see room in that line-up for yet another model. 6 models (assuming wagon and sedans of each trim) would be about minimal, right now the Outbacks are finally down to 8 (10 in 2003) models. (I just happened to look at the Subaru site which must have been updated for 2004 Legacy and Outback models with the Legacy now bearing 2 models each in Sedan/Wagon. I also notice the color selection has been updated too. Just looking over the 2004 selection, looks like they're moving in the right direction. I can see what they mean by upscale, doesn't look too significant, but none-the-less, a good change.

    Back to models, as looking at the current GT Sedan and Wagon priced at 25,095 and 25,995 respectively, there is some room to play with. I don't know how many people over here frequent NASIOC and here, but on NASIOC a couple of months back there was a huge debate brewing, many want the option of opting out of leather and power seats to make way for a better price and that is something many enthusiasts don't want. We've been crying for such a car. Making those components (cloth interior, perhaps manual adjusting seats if some of us are lucky), as an optional order-only delete Premium Seating would work fine. This wouldn't be a significant amount of work for SOA and would constitute for a small number of sales, none-the-less still sales. Other contries can have their GT this way, why can't the largest market on the planet as well? With the currently over-inflated GT pricing, loss of leather, the GT with turbo and performance upgrades over current could fall into the prcing slot perfectly. The GT Wagon may go above the pricing slot by a marginal amount though.

    Here is how I see the models:

    Legacy S Sedan (signify 'Sport') similar to L Anniv. - $20,995
    Legacy S Wagon (signify 'Sport') similar to L Anniv. - $21,895

    Legacy ST Sedan ('Sport Touring') using 04 GT Brakes/ Rear LSD/ 2.5L AVCS engine w/ 200/200 and sporty suspension - $22,495
    Legacy ST Wagon ('Sport Touring') using 04 GT Brakes/ Rear LSD/ 2.5L AVCS engine w/ 200/200 and sporty suspension - $23,395

    Legacy GT Sedan ('Grand Touring') with as mentioned but in cloth, manual seats - $25,595-25,995
    Legacy GT Wagon ('Grand Touring') with as mentioned but in cloth, manual seats - $25,995-26,395

    Legacy GT Limited models include: Power Leather Heated Seats, Macintosh Audio, Security Pack - $add 1,500-2,000

    As looking at current line-up, moonroofs are standard and good for the up-scale image. I don't think this increadibly unreasonable. Making a line of performance suspension, brake, drivetrain, and performance parts available that STi makes available in Japan would make these models still affordable if optioned out further for performance enhancements if Subaru would decide to. Also, being the competition of V6 models to the GT being slightly priced below those levels would make these models rather available and a worthy alternative to those 'Plain Jane' models. I really don't think this is too large a line-up.

    PPower, I think we can leave the $30k+ range for a future STi model. Pricing these models in this range would make them sell like hotcakes. In this market, it's all about affordability and value, pricing in the $30k range bar STi models and top of the line Outback models is rediculous IMHO. You're not adding that significant a package to raise the price $5,000. The current GT I would value at $1,500 less than it really costs, that's about halfway priced between a L Anniversary model and a GT, that's about how much better a GT is than an L Anniv. BTW, the Forester XT in semi comparable form to what I'd be looking for in the interior with the chassis changes and slightly upgrade engine comes in $1,000 below my suggested base Legacy GT pricing. That's just some food for thought.

    Anyone think my suggested ST model is well placed and a good idea? I find it a good alternative to a GT for those who can't quite afford the turbo or don't want one.

    Okay, fire away.
  • dcm61dcm61 Posts: 1,464
    I don't need a turbo or an H-6 but would welcome a bump in HP on the H-4. 190 or 200 HP (or even 180-185, since the new gen will be lighter) on 87 octane would work for me. I'd like an Outback ST wagon w/ 5EAT / VTD & single moonroof please.

    DaveM
  • I would just like to add that I wish that the moonroof was optional. Taller drivers don't want it, and it is an expensive piece that raises up the price. While Subaru is trying to move upscale/premium, they still are the new kids on the block and have to focus on their price. No moonroof and no power/leather seats like you mention would help out with that. Cross our fingers.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,890
    Short drivers (like me!) don't necessarily want it either. I've had several cars with them, and I almost never open them, or derive any pleasure from them. On my most recent vehicle, I specifically requested that the salesman find me a car without a roof as I wasn't prepared to pay money for that feature.

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    ST would interest me if they could tune it to run on 87 octane. That might be tough, though.

    Maybe a moonroof could be a stand-alone option. Leather too.

    Things like HIDs and Navigation could be SPT parts.

    -juice
  • I think we're more into options than Subaru is. If it was up to me, these are some of the things I would have standard, and as options.

    New Standard:
    -One-touch all windows down (not just drivers door), or selectable in single, double or 4 windows via a toggle like the power mirror toggle
    -60/40 split-folding rear seat on ALL sedans and wagons
    -Good, solid silky-smooth short throw shifter for all MT sport models
    -Standard Security Package Upgrade on turbo/H6 models

    Options:
    -Delete option for power-leather seats to manually-adjusting cloth seats (option of STi bucket seats)
    http://www.japanparts.com/Pic/pic003/027-015.jpg
    -Single fully operable moonroof (both sedan and wagon) stand-alone or available in package
    -Cold weather package (heated seats and mirrors)
    -HID Headlamps
    -Navigation System
    -Auto-Dimming Mirror
    -Factory Window Tint

    STi/SPT Options:
    -STi Sports Package: Silicone Intercooler Hoses, Sports ECU (~$300-500) good for maybe 280hp up from 250hp
    -STi Brake Package: Stainless Steel Brake Lines, Upgraded Pads (~$500)
    -SPT Handling Package: Rear Sway Bar Upgrade, Upgraded Springs, Adjustable Dampeners, Associating Bushings
    (~$1500)
    -STi Front LSD (~$750?)

    The biggest thing, make the parts affordable. People will buy them. I've heard Subaru was disgusted when they saw Subaru fans with their WRX's and non-Subaru parts on the cars. It's inevitable, people want a chance to customize their performance vehicles. Subaru can get in on this too, but that have to offer some reasonable parts at reasonable prices. Comfort is one thing, that's easy to offer those options, but catering to enthusiasts is something else. They will always look for areas to improve a car, they just have to know what we're looking for and listen to the customers. That is why SPT/STi parts haven't sold too well over here so far. Not everyone bases their decisions on luxury options.
  • big_guybig_guy Posts: 372
    I 2nd the vote for making the moon roof an option . . . not STANDARD equipment. I think that they should be optional on ALL cars. I really like Subarus and would love to own one but they always package all the "fun-stuff" and their higher end models with a moon roof. Because of this, I don't fit into the Subaru models with the moon roof (BTW, I'm 6'-7" tall).
  • bigelmbigelm Posts: 995
    I'm 6'5" and I can't see myself with a moonroof. Yes, it may sacrifice an inch or so but I like opening the roof just about every sunny day....

    But I do agree, it should be an option unless packaged with other worthwhile options like navigation, 10 way power seats (as opposed to 8 way)....

    Just throwing some things out there just for understanding before I get flamed....
  • Have you visited the Subaru Global site? They show a beautiful vehicle, with NO air scoop and optional sunroof. Now if we could only get the top tech specs with premium cloth seats, I would buy today. Does anyone really think the air scoop looks good? I was sad to see they junked up the supercharged Forester with one. I am hoping for the best.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,674
    is not there to look "pretty;" it's there to feed the turbo's intercooler. Only turbocharged Subarus get the hood scoop.

    BTW, the Forester XT is turbocharged, not supercharged.

    Bob
  • I think the TMIC (Top-Mount Intercooler) scoop looks great on a Legacy, far better than any other model. As Bob pointed out it is there for function over form. Mounting the intercooler there is optimal location on a Subaru to reduce the most amount of plumbing for the turbo setup, in turn increases efficiency and performance. The reason the IC on the new Legacy is much more subdued is the profile of the vehicle. The Legacy has always had more efficient lines which get more air to the TMIC therefore reducing the extra height needed to pull air at higher speeds. It's a good thing in more ways than one.

    Oh and yes, I want a new turbo Leg BAD! Bob, you know this. ;) Though I'd settle for a WRX Wagon, WRX STi Wagon would be supreme! I'm all about the performance over luxury or comfort though. ;)
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,674
    Yes, there are other turbocharged cars without hood scoops, Volvo for one. However, all Subaru rally racers have hood scoops, again to better feed the intercooler, so there must be good sound engineering reasons for turbo Subarus to have hood scoops.

    While it does serve a marketing purpose, in that the hood scoop makes it easy to ID the turbos from other Subies, that's more of a byproduct than anything else.

    Bob
  • It mostly has to do with the efficiency in exhaust and intercooler plumbing on a Boxer config. As bob noted there are others that use different intercooling methods, but those are all other engine configurations as well.

    Also as noted, some of the earlier Subarus 97-99 Legacy(96?) GT and OB models, 98-01 Impreza RS and OBS had hood scoops for the performance image. Now we're finally starting to get past the image deal and into function! Yippee!
  • I stand corrected on the turbocharged thing, but after six years with a non-functional scoop on my 1997 Outback, I do not think they will improve the image of what should be a first class sport sedan. Is it really necessary? Understand that the boxer engine is different, but audi and saab keep clean lines on their sedans, to their great benefit.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The top-mounted intercooler is easy to access, plus it's just a Subaru styling cue.

    FWIW, at Summit Point there was an EVO and the guy was having a problem with the plumbing on his front-mounted intercooler. Access was horrible, he was showing me. He actually left the track twice and never really got any track time.

    -juice
  • setzersetzer Posts: 127
    what's the point of the Legacy wagon? All it is is an Outback.
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,852
    Not everyone likes the Outback. A Legacy GT wagon is my preferred variant.
  • subearusubearu Posts: 3,613
    is a raised suspension version of the Legacy. Different tires, more ground clearance, lower cladding. And up to now (not sure about the '05's) the Outback was the only Subaru available with an H6.

    -Brian
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Actually, Legacy came first. The Outback variant was added and became a huge success, but still it's that model that was based on the Legacy, not the other way around.

    The L/SE model was successful, the current 2.5GT was not. The L/SE did a lot of volume, not quite matching the Outback, but contributing significantly to Subaru's bottom line.

    -juice
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,447
    "what's the point of the Legacy wagon? All it is is an Outback."

    Legacy costs less, looks less garish (no cladding), handles better (lower to the ground)especially in GT form, rides better.

    The Outback has more ground clearance so it is better for real deep snow, or rough trails. The main difference is the "rugged" image that some people like.

    I am anxiously awaiting the '05 Legacy L. If it is available without a sunroof, and the mileage improves (as it did for the Japanese model) then I may consider one. I have given up on the Mazda 6 wagon. Only available with a V-6 - which uses as much gas as some SUV's.
  • trueawdtrueawd Posts: 64
    You can and will in 05 only be able to get a H6 in the Outback Wagon and Sedan. That might be a reason, plus all the others stated...ground clearance, ruggedness, etc...
  • Personally, I could see the Outback Sedan dropped. I think the USA and Canada are the only 2 places it exists and I don't see too many of them. I just can't see the purpose, Sport Utility, sedan doesn't really fit the utility aspect which is a main part of the Outback- go nearly anywhere with all your gear.

    Secondly the Legacy Wagon issue: I don't know too many people that would see it the same. They fit 2 different images for 2 different crowds. I know many people that love the Legacy Wagon but would NEVER want an Outback or have to pay for all the extra stuff it has which they would never use. My dad is one of them as well as several Legacy people I know. Therefore 2 completely different markets.

    Personally I'm torn between a Legacy GT turbo Wagon and Sedan. The sedan will be a little faster, but the sleeper is a hair less. Both look excellent and can perform very well. I can tell you though considering I am driven for performance and handling beyond stock, an Outback isn't even remotely an option.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Posts: 2,287
    In Britain, at least, the Legacy is now available with a horizontally opposed, 6 cylinder, DOHC/Bank, AVCS (Active valve control system) engine with 4 valves per cylinder. Or at least that is what the website says.

    That doesn't necessarily mean that it will be available that way in the US or Canada, but it is in Britain.
  • trueawdtrueawd Posts: 64
    Thats' true they do have a 3.0 in other contries, but I've heard that will not happen here at least not this year.
  • I wouldn't necessarily bet anything against it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    It's Official: 250hp, 0-60 in 5.5 seconds! :o)

    -juice
  • JUICE - Now that's a lot better than 6.3something seconds.
    Where did you find out that's it's 5.5?
    Is the 250hp v4 turbo or v6 w/out?
    Just gets better everytime I read about the Legacy.
  • Ken,
    Subaru's use boxer or H4/H6 engines. The new GT is a turbocharged 2.5 liter H4.

    http://www.need-desire.com/main.html

    -Ian
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