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Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego

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Comments

  • The 2006 Avalon with a 3.5L is suppose to have 280hp.

    If this is true, will Ford come to the table with their 3.5L at 240hp?
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    The 3.5L will be offered in various different tunings. Like Nissan's 3.5L which can vary between 235HP to 300HP. Obviously the higher tunes will be reachable with premium gas, but that's still being worked out.
  • samnoesamnoe Posts: 731
    And I still think 280 hp is an overkill for a FWD vehicle. It can't give you that great mileage, and will definitely cause some torque steer. 250 hp is more than enough for a 4,200 lbs. FWD vehicle.

    However, Ford can use more power for the AWD equipped cars, due to the added weight (I know, just about 150 lbs. over the FWD version), and due to the AWD system which can take care of the torque steer problem (ACURA RL:-)
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Another trick is by tailoring off the Torque, the higher the horsepower number increases... hence, Acura RL's. If you have lower torque, than horsepower, it's less torque steer that needs to be dealt with. Therefore you might see that trick as FWD are approaching 300HP.

    Also, these are higher strung engines that will require it to work up the rev range high, to reach it's 300HP, therefore torque won't come into play till much later, and by that time the vehicle has already taken off whereas torque steer wouldn't pose a problem.

    There are times where an engine of higher displacement will not be able to use the above said trick, as in GM's 5.3L OHV V8 being fitted into the FWD Grand Prix... Yikes...
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Posts: 2,287
    I, for one, think horsepower is highly overrated. Torque is far more important to me...And I had a 1992 Nissan Maxima SE. I KNOW what torque steer is. It isn't a big deal, if you know how to handle it. Unfortunately for the car companies, there are too many that expect the car to take care of them, regardless of what.

    Sigh.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    With regards to your comments on the Sienna and Ody, the lead-foots at Car and Driver were able to average 21+ MPG with their Long-Term 40,000 mile test vehicle. Given that car's acceleration times and weight, I think thats darn impressive. CR averaged the same 21 MPG in their review of the Sienna, as well.

    For the literature lovers out there, this month's issue of Consumer Reports has a VERY favorable review of the Five Hundred... two SELs, one with the 6 speed/FWD and the other with the CVT/AWD. Interestingly (and backing up my point that the CVT is the way to go), the two vehicles posted nearly identical acceleration numbers. As a note, the FWD Five Hundred returned avg. fuel economy of 21 MPG, while the AWD version tested 20 MPG.
    Not bad, but nothing to write home about for brand new vehicles, IMO. (Both of those bested the Chrysler 300 Touring's MPG at 19 overall, but the Chrysler tested a good deal quicker than either Ford). As one more final comparison, the numbers that CR achieved for both the Five Hundred SEL 6 speed FWD and the 300 Touring matched nearly identically the numbers achived by Motor Trend.

    ANT, question- in the past you've stated that CR has a bias.... so are you going to dismiss the 500's performance in this issue?
    ~alpha
  • CR did a comparo of 500 (CVT & FWD), 300 (V6 & Hemi) and Amanti in Jan.05 issue that came out last week.
    500 beat not only 300 V6 but 300C Hemi too! I know, I know CR is a somewhat biased publication, on the other end of the spectrum from Car & Driver or AutoTrend. They look at cars from usability stand-point, not from the excitement standpoint. But looking at the facts
     a) 300 has a horrible rear and low front view
     b) Smaller trunk
     c) No smooth shifting CVT
     d) $3-4k more expensive in V6. Hemi shouldn't even be compared to 500 - it's for a different crowd and at least $10K more.
     e) Worse fuel economy and etc.
    I think from the get-go, Ford designed 500 with ConsumerReports crowd in mind, while 300 was designed with MotorTrend crowd in mind. So, for all practical purposed we should stop comparing 300 to 500. I think 500 is designed for late 40- early 60 demographics, those with the most money. 300C was designed for much younger crowd willing to take a risky styling and lots of power in Hemi. 300 V6 was made to fill a void left by Concorde, it's really a cheaper derivative of 300C.
    What I don't get is that Avalon still tops the list in CR and ParkAvenue is 2nd. These are much older cars, and much more expensive. So, 500 is really on top of the list if you take the price into consideration as most of us do.
  • This seems as good a place as any to post this: Is it just me or is Ford just getting killed in the engine department these days? I realize that they have the 3.5 Duratech coming out, but that engine isn't due for at least another year, and only promises to match what the competition has on the market today. Nissan, for example, has had a V6 on the market for several years with this kind of performance. Ford seems to be benchmarking what the competition currently has on the market without also considering what the competition will have in the future. Who knows what Toyota, Nissan, and Honda will be getting form a 3.5L V6 by the time the 3.5 Duratech is out? My guess is that the new Ford engine will barely match or be slightly behind the competition in terms of power, and will be saddled with the same "not as refined as the imports" descriptions. Does anyone else think that Ford needs a totally new line of next generation engines that aim to beat, not meet, the competition? There are few, if any, mainstream vehicle categories left now where a Ford engine is considered the class leader.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Alpha,
    When I state biased, I'm honing in on their comments, thoughts, etc.
    Example: Digital instrumentaion on the HondaS2000 as reported by one rag, was praised for being futuristic, insightful, intelligent...Now when the Grand Marquis has it, it was condemed as old-tech, hard to decipher, etc.

    Instrumented data is just that, figures they received during testing, according to how they tested the vehicle. No need to dismiss that since that was their experience.

    Frizz,

    There's a few engine surprises coming from Ford. Currently more effort is being placed on it's transmissions, but there's 2 engines currently being developed, and a few other's who will be receiving upgrades soon.
  • ANT14, you're killing me dropping a hint like that!

    Seriously, I understand that you can't go into greater detail, and I'm glad there are some surprises ahead for Ford engines.

    I'm looking forward to reading this sentence in a review of a Ford vehicle sometime in the near future: "This new engine surpasses the competition in both performance and refinement."
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Let's not forget Ford is responsible for various other brands as well. SO multiple fires need to be dealt with at the same time. This evident with the 4.4L V8 in the new LR3 and RRSport, which will replace the BMW derived 4.4L V8 in the RRover. Then you had the Yamaha venture with Volvo, which will be used in a few other vehicles in the future.

    The Modular family received the 3V version on the V8/V10. Now it's just a matter of refreshning before the other vehicles receive this, such as next years '06 Explorer and Sport Trac.

    Plus it's essential that the new 3.5L V6 comes out perfect as well as the 6.2L V8 since they are going in very important products.
  • If you participated in one of the Montego/Mariner test drive events recently, check your mailbox. I just received a $500 bonus rebate postcard, usable on either vehicle. (Must take delivery by 1/3)
  • mschmalmschmal Posts: 1,757
    This has nothing to do with this topic, however; if any of you out there think that Ford is dead, just visit http://www.thetruthabouttrucks.com and see where Ford has been spending its money.

    Its the profits from the F-150 that will get the rest of us the vehicles we want to buy.

    Mark
  • Please explain what type of variable valve technology the 3.5L will incorporate.

    Will this be a 2 stage (2 RPM range) or will this be a continuously variable?

    What type of VVT does Toyota and Nissan use?
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    This link should explain a bit more on the Duratec35...

    http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=15895
  • fdcapt2fdcapt2 Posts: 122
    Excellent post!!! My feelings exactly. They don't push the envelope enough to become the TOP DOG, they seem to enjoy being the "wimpy puppy". They have some really nice cars this year, but that's just it....nice cars, not outstanding cars, except for the Mustang. Maybe once they start giving these cars away with rebates, etc. they will see how much they messed up....AGAIN
  • dbc123dbc123 Posts: 105
    I just bought a Five Hundred SE FWD with CVT. Would have liked a higher trim level but specifically wanted a CVT without the added weight and cost of AWD which is unnecessary where I live.
    Studying the dealers inventories I noticed that SE FWD's with serial VIN's above 22-23000 all have the 6-speed. Dealer checked future incoming car list and all SE FWD's have 6-speeds. It looks like only cars below these numbers will have CVT with FWD.
    If you want this particular combination, now may be the time to act. I was hoping to wait for incentives but recent statments by Ford and a recent interview with Bill Ford makes it clear that they are going to resist putting incentives on the new products.
    I'm amazed by the comments on this board that some have to wait for cars or special order them. The dealer from whom I bought has over 50 Five Hundreds in stock and 8 other nearby dealers have lots of them too.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    For the side crash, it's the underseat steel member that transfer the impact across to the other side of the vehicle, allowing it to tie everything together and dicipate energy from the side impact on one side.

    You will be seeing this in future products...
  • tkfitztkfitz Posts: 95
    Has anyone had a chance to compare the 500 with a Lacrosse? They are similar in price.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Posts: 2,287
    Consumer's Reports recently reviewed the Five Hundred, along with a 300 and some other cars.

     

    As you know, CR access on the web is for a fee, but here is a link to the press release CR itself put out on the review (or you can read the whole thing free at most any library):

     

    http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=40390
  • The 500 gets the 250HP 3.5 in 12-18 months. That's nice.

     

       Problem one: Why wasn't it available at the start? The 300 already has a 250HP engine, so does the Maxima. Even Buicks have 240!

     

       Problem two: By the time the engine gets here, people will have a negative first impression that the car is weak, so Ford not ONLY has to deal with poor CAR customer traffic, low resale values, declining market share, and the Taurus legacy, now the car has two strikes against it, because people buy horsepower (ask Chrysler!).

     

       Problem three: 2006 Avalon. Toyota seems as dedicated to the new Avalon as they were to the new Sienna (Ford guy: Where did all my Freestar traffic go?)!

        

       280HP, suave new styling (check Forum for picture, not bad), big new tech features (Voive-act NAV, Optitron guages, power sunshades, Laser cruise, I can go on), 4 trim levels, much higher quality and resale.

     

       The basic problem is I don't know where Ford plans it's products from. The F-150 gains 40 HP but adds 500 lbs. so performance doesn't improve, and economy actually goes down. The Freestyle looks funny, can't tow, is pricey ($30k), and is easily dusted by Impreza wagonoids!

     

      

       The sad part is the 500 is a pretty good steak! I almost like it. Good size, nice price, AWD. But where is the sizzle? Ford has forgotten why people buy something. Stop selling stake! Ask Chrysler what sells.

     

       And in the end, mighty 'Yota will outsell both, with the right mix of cake and frosting. They make it seems so easy too! Don't believe me? Look at Sienna sales. Even Honda is blinking. It's as if Ford just plans to fail.

     

       

       DrFill
  • One question. Why is the sedan called 500 to begin with? Does 500 mean something to Ford sedans? It doesn't denote engine size. Is it copying the Chrylser 300?

     

       DrFill
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    "Problem one: Why wasn't it available at the start?"

     

    We've discussed that in this forum in the past, scroll back to the beginning pages were I mention timing and engine plant production.

     

    Problem 2: The vehicle isn't made to be a huge 300-400K Unit seller as the Taurus was. And it's residual value is improved. There won't be a huge amount of leftover 500's, since the flexible plant allows it to switch over to Freestyle assembly if need be.

     

    Problem 3: The 280HP Avalon will have the price to match it's higher aspirations. As is, pricing wise it pushes well into the Lexus ES330 territory.

     

    " The F-150 gains 40 HP but adds 500 lbs. so performance doesn't improve, and economy actually goes down"

     

    Fuel economy improved in the F-150 in various levels because of the improved 3V technology on the 5.4L. Yes, they could have improved much more if not for the 500lbs, but that extra 500lbs, allows it to attain A) Highest Crash Rating Scores B) Highest towing C) Segment leading ride D) Solidity and NVH. It's a truck, not a Sports car.

     

    "The Freestyle looks funny, can't tow, is pricey ($30k), and is easily dusted by Impreza wagonoids! "

     

    The Freestyle is selling at higher number's than expected. It can tow, just not huge boats- The Explorer can fit that need. Impreza doesn't pose any threat/no where near the radar screen. Pacifica is the closest.

     

    "Ask Chrysler what sells. "

     

    After many MANY years of half-baked passenger cars, it's about time they got one right. One home-run doesn't let you win the season.

     

    "And in the end, mighty 'Yota will outsell both, with the right mix of cake and frosting."

     

    Toyota has it's share of troubles, and are experiencing their share of growing pains. Their average age buyer's increasing, not attracting younger consumer's can prove Buick like issues 20-30 years from now when the loyal buyer base starts dying off. Recalls now affecting more vehicles, since more vehicles are being sold.

     

    "One question. Why is the sedan called 500 to begin with? Does 500 mean something to Ford sedans? I"

     

    Yes, Galaxie 500, sedan from Ford's past. Coinciding with the "F" naming, Five-Hundred did best in consumer testing.
  • boyceboyce Bossier City, La.Posts: 48
    I think that in the 50's Ford also had a Fairlane 500 model before the Galaxies.

    2012 Mazda 3 Skyactive 6spd. auto 2008 Mazda Tribute S 4spd auto.

  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Yes, there was also a Faielane 500 as well.
  • Ford has three problems (as well as GM) they are U A W...

     

    Its not the workers, they are hard and dedicated, its the Unions bosses who suck the lifeblood out of the company by forcing it to pay its workers more and spend more on insurance that any competing automaker in the world.

     

    and making insurace a goverment good wont solve anything besides raising all of our taxes and still costing the company more money through those increases.

     

    well, there is another problem, and thats currency differences. THe reason the 500 can't come out with a good engine is because it costs too much to make one. Toyota gains about 2-5K advantage on every midsize car they import and about 15K for luxury cars. There is an article here on Edmunds were GM talks about this.

     

    Its because our dollar is so high, and Japan is doing everything they can to keep the yen down. Now when the 500 gets the new engine, the Avalon will come out and kick its butt.

     

    And if market data shows, people are willing to pay more for a better product. Hopefully the 500 will be good enough but without EVEN A NAV SYSTEM i am afraid for the whole future of this American automaker, and all those workers who wont have any wage or any insurance once(if) she falls *gulp...

     
    Dont Ford and GM have lobbying groups? Can't they do something to persuade congress to at least stop the currency disaster??? I mean there has got to be something they can do...
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Posts: 2,287
    Sigh.

     

    Toyota builds most of its engines and cars HERE in the USA and/or Canada with parts from HERE in North America.

     

    And the new Avalon is due out in a couple of MONTHS, not years. The new Ford engine isn't due for a couple of years.

     

    Meanwhile, many Fords and GM products are from other countries than the USA (Canada, Mexico, Australia even enters into the picture).

    And the UAW is hardly solely responsible for the American carmakers woes. There is more than enough blame to go around, much of it squarely on the shoulders of management and, in many cases, the Government as well...

     

    I note you do not mention that grand German firm, Daimler. Gee, I wonder why?

     

    Things are not as they seem, skim milk masquerades as cream....
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    I agree, I too believe the U.A.W. is just an out-dated and un-necessary system, but that's a whole other topic I try to avoid mentioning too much over.

     

    Most Ford engines are built and assembled in the U.S., therefore it doesn't rely on currency exchanges, but yes, on some other vehicles (Jaguar for example) it's becoming an issue. The dollar is very weak against foreign money. That and the Japanese government who purposely control their YEN, so their exports gain more, are hurting the manufacturer's of various industries.

     
    And then there's time you must allocate vehicle manufacturing to Mexico, to help offset the cost/production differences....

     

    Another point, information has been leaking that Toyota doesn't profit much (if any) from Camry sales... Toyota somewhat admitted to this publically. Volume sales need to be kept over a certain amount for them to post a profit, and they count on ex-Camry buyer's to move onto their higher priced Avalon, 4-R/Highlander/Sequoia, or even Lexus' vehicles and count on those profits, rather than the initial profits of a Camry sale. (this is quite common on many vehicles though).
This discussion has been closed.