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Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego

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Comments

  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Uh huh, they got one of my emails alright...
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Well, I rent from Hertz all the time, and they have the nerve to call a Taurus "full size", which still makes me laugh. If I can reach the door handle on the passenger side with my seat belt on, it ain't full size to me!
  • bewhite25bewhite25 Member Posts: 35
    Rental cars don't have "compacts" then, do they?
  • buckwheatbuckwheat Member Posts: 396
    Mercury will feature high-tech design touches that will distinguish them from Fords "without balooning the price". For example, the Montego will feature high intensity discharge headlamps and light emitting diode taillamps. And some Mercury models will come with seats that can be heated or cooled, while only heated seats will be offered in matching Ford models. Product planners also could use more robust or refined powertrains to set the Mercury models apart. If the recently released Mercury Monterey volume models price of between $34,000 - $36,000 compared to Ford twin Freestar $27,000 - $30,000+ gives hint to the price spread between other Ford - Mercury siblings, so much for that "without balooning the price".

    http://autoweek.com/cat_print.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=- carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=05512497&47610159- 1
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    That's good to hear. I feel the MErcs should have premium engines over the Ford offerings. The next level up, at least.
  • exalteddragon1exalteddragon1 Member Posts: 729
    Merc's Need Nav systems available at least as options. Amoung "Younger" buyers like myself, it is very important. I don't mind a missing Nav in a Mustang (not too much) but in a car that is going to compete with 340hp V-8's? Ford needs something.
    Brawn or brains, choose one or loose both.
  • nedc2nedc2 Member Posts: 192
    " If I can reach the door handle on the passenger side with my seat belt on, it ain't full size to me! "
    Well if that's the standard, then I can't find a full size car on the market today;)
  • bobbrown1bobbrown1 Member Posts: 22
    I agree with the need to offer navigation and a larger engine.
    I was thinking maybe this platform could the basis for an updated Lincoln Continental sedan?
    It would simply need a stretch and a v8 to set it apart, as the 1988 model more or less did with the Taurus/Sable platform.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I do wish the Continental would return in some form.
  • 6thbeatle6thbeatle Member Posts: 180
    i like how the lincoln concepts at detroit this year were displaying their "new" retro chrome eggcrate grill. mercury should keep the waterfall grill design now used on the navigator and aviator to distinguish its own line-up.

    a new continental with suicide doors and a grand design would be slick.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    "I was thinking maybe this platform could the basis for an updated Lincoln Continental sedan?"

    This is one option being tossed around.... The upcoming trend in vehicles from Ford will be availability of AWD, therefore this platform can also sustain that. As well as the Lincoln version of the Futura sedan, will also be AWD.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    Besides the fact that there seems to be no space for a V8 (remember, the Duractec is a 60 degrees V6), Ford would also need to have a strong enough transmission. The best solution may be to simply use the Volvo engines and transmissions.

    As for Mercury and Mazda, they sould sell them in combined Ford - Lincoln - Mercury - Mazda dealers as alternate styles, and advertise that Ford gives buyers a choice of styles (the Ford look, the Mercury look, or the Mazda look).
  • 6thbeatle6thbeatle Member Posts: 180
    i think mercury has always been treated as the poor cousin to ford and lincoln. a new cougar coupe/convertible built on the new 2005 mustang platform with styling reminiscent of the '67-'68 XR7 with its electric shaver grille and sequential rear turn signals would increase ford pony car sales as a personal luxury coupe offering like the buick riviera.

    the marauder should be given a more luxurious interior, a power boost, a freshened exterior--including a GT sportwagon variant--and be positioned as an american muscle classic to compete with the dodge magnum.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    "Besides the fact that there seems to be no space for a V8 (remember, the Duractec is a 60 degrees V6), Ford would also need to have a strong enough transmission. The best solution may be to simply use the Volvo engines and transmissions. Ford would also need to have a strong enough transmission. The best solution may be to simply use the Volvo engines and transmissions."

    Actually the Volvo transmission are just "up to par" for what they are able to handle. There's many Ford designed transmissions which are much stronger overall.

    The next S80 will be using a Yamaha massaged(just the heads and a few other items) Jag 4.0-4.2L engine, and that itself will require a different transmission to handle it. And that itself is able to fit within the P2 platform. With a bit of minimal redesigning, some V8's can enter the engine bays of the P2 platform. The only difficult factor would be Ford's modular V8's which are a bit tall to fit in that platform without major modifications.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    The problem is that Ford dealers would not stand to have the top line models sold only by Mercury. Thus, there will be a Five Hundred Limited, and an almost identical Montego.

    I bought my 2002 Mountaineer because it was $1,200 LESS than an identically equipped Explorer Limited (V8, every option except 4WD, sunroof, and running boards).

    Thus, my suggestion that instead of trying to maintain a separate brand, Ford simply offer buyers a choice of different looks.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    Doing away with the Mercury brand would cost Ford Motor Company hundreds of millions of dollars, at the very least. GM has paid through the nose to end Oldsmobile. Dealers are entitled to compensation under very liberal state laws.

    I doubt you will see Mercury going anywhere.

    Besides, Lincoln dealers depend on Mercury to help pay the bills.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    There should be very little cost if they make all of the dealers Ford, Mercury and Lincoln outlets, and it would give them a market advantage to gain that many more Ford outlets. The only cost would be new signs. Since most of the Lincoln-Mercury dealerships are owned by people or groups who also own Ford dealerships, I doubt that they would complain.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    You've obviously not dealt with dealers from the manufacturer's point of view. Dealer-manufacturer relationships are very hostile in many instances. And existing dealers would not be pleased to have new competitors, many of whom are in the very close proximity to their shops.

    To get this back on topic, other than HID lights and LED tail lights and a waterfall grille, does the Montego have anything to recommend it over the Five Hundred? I know the interior is two-toned.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    I like the front end of the Five Hundred much better, but would make the choice based on price - send letters to a batch of dealers and see what offers come back.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    To get back off topic, but to answer the dealer question, many of those dealers to be combined, are across the street from each other. More than half of them are. That's never gonna work. Mercury is going nowhere. Literally.....
  • samnoesamnoe Member Posts: 731
    Will have the addition of heated AND cooled seats, I think.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Package wise, you might see items offered on the Mercury products that COULD be seen in Lincoln, BUT placing those items within Ford twined products.

    Example of the Monterey. It offers an item seen in the Lincolns (warm/cooled seats) YET, in a Ford derived product. And the case in point with the Montego.

    There are actually customer's who want a Ford product, but do not wish to see the same vehicle at every corner like the Ford and wish to set itself a bit apart for the crowd. And for that, there's Mercury.
  • nedc2nedc2 Member Posts: 192
    I would have to disagree with Mr. Lienerts assessment. The Mercury brand is here to stay in the US market. The cost to Ford of dissolving all those LM dealerships would be staggering, the alternative is to greatly expand the Lincoln lineup, essentially absorbing many of the current Mercury models, which would dilute that brands identity even further. The Buick brand is really the one in more trouble; GM has another mid-market brand, Pontiac that competes directly with Buick, and Saturn seems to be moving in that direction. That gives GM essentially two and a half Mercury divisions, most of whose dealers a stand alone operations. That said Mercury does need something more than Fords with revised grilles and tail lamps to sell ( though they've done a very good job establishing a family look, much better than the hodgepodge of styles that Ford division currently has). Thy need some unique product( Messenger? built on a shortened Mustang platform maybe, with IRS of course, or bringing over a luxe version of the Euro Focus C-Max) and ideally some powertrain differentiation; tune the Merc models from premium fuel, and give them a few extra hp and some extra torque, e.g. slip the LS version of the duratec in the Montego.
  • bretaabretaa Member Posts: 130
    Just like GM is going to make Saturn its "Opel" outlet, Ford could sell its European designs (C-Max, Mondeo, etc.) through Mercury for buyers who want more European flavor.

    - Bret
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    I was going to suggest that also. Probably the main reason that's not going to fly is what are the workers and factories making current Mercurys going to do? An obvious answer is to import the European ideas but build the cars here. Considering all the problems Ford had in making the European Focus here, Ford isn't too thrilled to repeat the experience again.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I do. What a miserable car! I wasn't to impressed with Ford of Germany after that fiasco, and neither was the rest of america! If you liked old Volvos, then you liked the Merkur.

    BUT, maybe they could do it better this time. For now though that's a great dream and idea, we're gonna get tarted up Fords with some Lincoln cues and options on the Mercurys, and frankly, that works for me too. My wife is solidly happy in the Mercury stable these days. I tried to upgrade her to Lincoln, and she'll have none of it. She says Mercury makes just the right set of clothes for her. Whatever that means.....
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    For years I've wanted Ford to bring over their Euro cars and sell them as Mercury's, unfortunately the UAW would have an issue with it, plus the cost of federalizing the vehicles for our crash standards and emmissions would defeat the purpose.

    If we were to take the Mondeo for example, it would sell around $28-32K once the exchange rate is calculated. And in the end, not many buyer's would accept that price point for Mercury, let along, a vehicle of those dimensions. Personally, I believe if the Passat can pull it off, why not the Mondeo. But that's another senario.

    Mercury won't be offering any unique vehicles (Cougar for example) just yet. When they start selling, and increasing their sales, and actually profitting, don't be surprised to see one vehicle unique to the Mercury line. As an example, Cougar.

    It wasn't long ago that mercury was pumping out more units in sales than Volvo does in a year. Just requires time before it reached that point for Mercury to start receiving independent vehicles. Right now there's a cash crunch and this is the best (and safe) route Ford can take.
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Member Posts: 854
    "There should be very little cost if they make all of the dealers Ford, Mercury and Lincoln outlets.."

    It is so easy for people in their high horses to make bold statements, but they hve no idea about car dealer francise laws and other myriad costs.

    GM has paid $1B to close Olds simply to please Wall Street. Think of what they could have done with that money with improved cars?

    And to the critics who moan that the 500 "looks like a 5 year old Audi". Look at an Audi showroom and see all the "5 year old Audis" still for sale.
  • rcf8000rcf8000 Member Posts: 619
    Yes, and the next generation Audi A6 looks the same except for an ugly new grille.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    Well, it seems that the best choice then is to eliminate the laws which keep the manufacturers from owning the sales outlets. They could not do a worse job than many of the dealers (awful service, uninformed sales people, corrupt finance departments, and so on).
  • buckwheatbuckwheat Member Posts: 396
    design photo before they made what is now thought to be the final product. I see some similarities.

    http://x.wieck.com/pv/WKA/2003/02/12/WKA2003021245079_PV.JPG
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Member Posts: 854
    "Well, it seems that the best choice then is to eliminate the laws which keep the manufacturers from owning the sales outlets. They could not do a worse job than many of the dealers (awful service, uninformed sales people, corrupt finance departments, and so on). "

    Who's to say a manufactur owned dealer would do better? In other prodcuts, independant dealers exist also, it's called Free Enterprise.

    Why don't you try getting laws changed? Bet you'd get tons of oppostion.
  • buckwheatbuckwheat Member Posts: 396
    owned by manufacturers has been tried before, in particular by Ford. It wasn't successful..
    http://www.interconection.biz/carnews2982.asp
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    Back to the Montego and Five Hundred - if Ford had put the effort wasted on developing a Mercury Version into a better engine for the launch, not a year or two later, they would have been far better off. They could offer alternative looks, but to try to have separate brands for the cars which only differ in very minor ways seems destined to fail. If their goal is keep Lincoln alive, then maybe the better choice would be to move Lincoln in with Volvo or Jaguar.

    How is it "Free" enterprise when the manufacturers are prohibited from owning dealerships? I didn't say the manufactuers would be better, just that it seems unlikely they could be worse.
  • nedc2nedc2 Member Posts: 192
    fsmmcsi said :"if Ford had put the effort wasted on developing a Mercury Version into a better engine for the launch, not a year or two later, they would have been far better off"

    Well, no, not really. It takes much, much longer, and a lot more money to develop a whole new engine family than it does to come up with a new grille, tail lamps upholstery patterns and a bit of sheetmetal for the hood and front fenders of a Mercury branded car, How many different engine families do Ford's competitors have anyway? Do Nissan or Honda generally bring out brand new engines every time they introduce a new model? I think not; Nissan uses its 3.5 litre in about everything that will fit it, and its a fine engine. I also don't accept that there is anything "wrong" with the 3 litre Duratec that's slated for the Five-Hundred/Montego and Freestyle. Versions of that engine are used in a range of Ford, Lincoln, Mazda, and Jaguar cars. including the XJ6! Its power output is comparable to or better than most other motors in that size range, including Audi/VW, Mercedes, BMW, and Toyota. Yes, it's smaller that the 3.4 or 3.5 litres some competitors have, Ford gambled several years ago that there would be more demand for smaller V6s and designed an engine family for the 2.5 to 3 litre displacement range. They were only half right. Gas prices fell in real terms in the US. The real problem is that there is an absurd horsepower race, and the jaded boys and girls of the automotive press, and many of those hanging out at sites like this, seem to be having their mid life crises, and so are only moved by vehicles which can entertain them with sub 7 second 0-60 times. Get real, you can't drive like that, legally at any rate, on our roads, and if you DO need that kind of acceleration to get you out of trouble it's probably because you weren't paying proper attention to begin with! Anyway the weight to horsepower/torque ratio on the Five-Hundred/Montego and Freestyle is actually better than that of the base versions of many midsize cars and SUVs, including the Subaru Outback, VW Touareg, Volvo V60/70, Toyota Highlander, etc. and roughly comparable to Ford's Explorer,VW's Passat 4Motion, and others. They're not intended to be "enthusiasts" cars, or Autobahn cruising Q-Ships, they're supposed to be comfortable, versatile family transporters. The power increase can wait 18-24 months until the Duratec 35 is ready. It will take time to ramp up production on the new vehicles anyway.

    I won't even attempt to get into an argument over your understanding of "Free Enterprise".
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Of the Duratec 30, you state:

    "Its power output is comparable to or better than most other motors in that size range, including Audi/VW, Mercedes, BMW, and Toyota."

    The most powerful Duratech 3.0 used in a Ford/Mercury is the 201hp/207 lb ft. in the Taurus, correct? Thats deficient by 19hp and 13 foot pounds compared to Toyota's least powerful V6, so Id say the Duratec forms the bottom parameter of the range for midsize/large midsize mainstream vehicles. Additionally, the other mfrs producing engines in that range- nearly all of them are ULEV (Nissans 3.5L is LEV, though). Is the Duratec 30? I cant find anything indicating so in the 04 Sable brochure that I have.

    I agree, theres nothing "wrong" with the Duratec 30 that will be introed with the Five Hundred. But no positive press, competitive advantages, or advertising opportunities are going to arise from being underpowered- at least not in this market segment.

    ~alpha
  • tpat3tpat3 Member Posts: 119
    about the whole horsepower thing. I like a good speed rush as much as the next guy, but 90 percent of the time I'm in no position to test the limits of my car's acceleration. This fixation with 0-60 times is truly absurd. Unless you spend the majority of your time behind the wheel on twisting mountain roads or on high speed runs through the desert, how much difference can a few tenths of a second really make? If, like me, you are mainly commuting or in urban/suburban settings, the point of diminishing returns comes somewhere south of 8 seconds or so.
  • 6thbeatle6thbeatle Member Posts: 180
    i like the overall shape of the montego, but that shiny grey plastic wood trim interior looks so grim and dated. i saw that style in korea seven years ago. ugh!
  • nedc2nedc2 Member Posts: 192
    "The most powerful Duratech 3.0 used in a Ford/Mercury is the 201hp/207 lb ft. in the Taurus, correct? Thats deficient by 19hp and 13 foot pounds compared to Toyota's least powerful V6, so Id say the Duratec forms the bottom parameter of the range for midsize/large midsize mainstream vehicles. Additionally, the other mfrs producing engines in that range- nearly all of them are ULEV (Nissans 3.5L is LEV, though). Is the Duratec 30? I cant find anything indicating so in the 04 Sable brochure that I have."

    I'm not sure about the Taurus/Sable versions of the Duratec but the veersion slated for the Five Hundred et al betters the ULEV standard and mmeets California LEV II standards, the Mazda and Lincoln versions also meet or better the ULEV standard. The Ford/Mercury and Mazda version are also tuned for regular unleaded, as far as I can tell the Toyota engines are designed for premium unleaded. It's easier to squeeze a few extra hp and lb.ft. of torque out of premium. And I deliberately avoided a direct comparison with Honda's VTec engines, they are in another league from every other mass market engines when it coms to specific output, and it's all protected by lot of patents.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    "if Ford had put the effort wasted on developing a Mercury Version into a better engine for the launch"

    Simply put, it was an issue relating to the engine plant, and it's capacity, it wasn't possibly to build this engine before it's time. That would be Cleveland Engine plant....
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    The Taurus V6 has 9 less hp than the Toyota 3.0L, not 19 from my other post.

    Also, I cant speak for other mfrs, but the Toyota 3.0L and 3.3L V6 are ULEV-II as well.

    I think this is a good enviormental selling point, why doesnt Ford publicize it more readily?

    ~alpha
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    If Mercury does resurrect the Cougar, it'll have to be the Mougar, right? (Sorry, couldn't resist)
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    "I think this is a good enviormental selling point, why doesnt Ford publicize it more readily?"

    Majority of Ford vehicles superceed such regulations, they just rather waste their typing/letter/words on other things on the brochure that might get someone's attention. I haven't met anyone personally that has stated "Oh it's a PZEV vehicle, I NEED to get one of those". So it's doesn't seem to be a priority, and rather save that for Hybrid and their FFV vehicles.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    Good point, Alpha01 - the lack of a better engine leaves Ford without a key marketing advantage, and I am sure that the competition (e.g. new Avalon, Chrysler 300, Nissan, Honda, Buick) will make sure that people know that their cars have more power.

    I have certainly argued that the Five Hundred will probably be quicker than expected, and no worse than many other common vehicles. However, that will only be true when the load consists of just the driver. The weak engine will really be noticable with a heavier load.

    I agree with the engine plant capacity points, but still think a more focused Ford could have found a way to upgrade that engine plant sooner.

    Good point ANT14 on the emissions - few beyond the "greenies" who drool over a Prius care about LEVII, PZEV and so forth. The pollution from new cars is nothing compared to the older vehicles, many of which emit more than an entire parking lot of new cars.
  • fdcapt2fdcapt2 Member Posts: 122
    First time here, so I hope I'm doing this right. I was reading from a site that was showing the specs for the new Montego. They had 245 HP listed for the Montego. When I checked a bunch of Ford 500 sites, they had 200 HP listed. ANT14, you seem to have a finger on the pulse of what's happening at Ford/Mercury. I read a post of yours mentioning a new engine for the second year of the Montego/Ford 500 called the "Tornado", I think. Any idea on what the horsepower might be with that engine? I'm sold on the Montego and if I have to wait another year for the newer motor I will. Thanks for any info anyone might have
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    It's called (or was) Cyclone, that's the 3.5L (formally known now as Duratec35) engine. "Cyclone" was the internal project name for it.

    As for power, it can vary upon applications and exhaust system (on the vehicle). It'll match Nissan's VQ 3.5L. Where it can make anywhere from 230 (as in the Quest), upwards to 287HP (on the 350Z)... All depends how Ford wishes to tune it.

    Here's a word on "future" items. Manufacturer's are wanting to sell you the vehicle, NOW... Not a few years from now. They want your money, to continue to circulate through their company, NOW. Many will not hint or tell you much of what's going to happen 4 years from now, because some people WILL wait till those 4 years.

    Problem is, in those 4 years, your attention might go somewhere else, or another manufacturer, in turn...they lose you. And that's not a chance they are willing to take. Granted, the same vehicle you buy now, might be a bit more, in a few years. OR, while you waited those 2-4 years, you find out they retouched something else, or lost an option you really had your heart set on, or just did something visually UGLY to the vehicle. And here you were waiting all this time, for nothing. Wouldn't that be frustrating.

    So these are some points to consider. Best advice I can give you pertaining to that is, drive it when it comes out. And if that ONE issue is the shortcoming, and you can wait awhile for it to be rectified, THEN you can reaccess the situation.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "Good point ANT14 on the emissions - few beyond the "greenies" who drool over a Prius care about LEVII, PZEV and so forth. The pollution from new cars is nothing compared to the older vehicles, many of which emit more than an entire parking lot of new cars."

    Exactly! The Greenies rarely will choose and F-150 over the Dodge because it's an ULEV......
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    And between the PZEV Focus, and F-150, guess which one makes the most profits? So obviously, Ford will concentrate on the F-150 overall. The Focus is a smaller vehicle which in other merits will be fuel efficient as well.
  • emtemt Member Posts: 39
    I wonder if Ford has taken notice the GM has temporarily stopped making the CVT used in the Saturn line due to reliability problems. Hope Ford has better luck with the CVT. If not, the AWD 500 will be a tough sell. Time will tell, but IMO the CVT is a big mistake.
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