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U.S. Paint problems

ToddpToddp Posts: 4
edited February 28 in Chevrolet
Are the American Truck Mnaufactures
still having the problems with paint
staying on the vehicle!!!.
I had a 88 4x4 surbuban that it blew off
of after 12 months. had too get a lawyer too get
it fixed. and when i did they did the usual
half-a-- job. not only did they not do
a good job on the paint. They also ripped-off
my new spare and jack from the vehicle. This
was an old dealership in Houston Texas(Knapp)
will never own a G.M. vehicle Again.

Todd
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Comments

  • BrutusBrutus Posts: 1,113
    No paint problems on my 92 Ford, but the color is off-white, which I suspect doesn't suffer as much from sun exposure.
  • lwflwf Posts: 223
    I never had a paint problem with an American car or truck, and I've been buying them for 50 years.
    Most of them, in fact, had been GM products and one was even a Chevy Suburban. The paint still looked good the last time I saw it when it had 100,000+ miles on it.

    But the very first Japanese car I bought in 1987 was a Camry, and the paint job was so bad, the dealer took the car back a few weeks after I bought it and gave me another new car with only 3 miles on it. The paint job on the second Camry was ok.

    So come on all you Toyota lovers, tell me again about that superb, there's-never-been-a-problem, Toyota quality. Sorry about the sarcasm and I'm not really anti-Toyota. In fact, I bought another Camry in 1996. But bad paint jobs can come from both sides of the ocean, and I think it's unreasonable to make statements like the one above that infers that all American trucks have inferior paint jobs based on one person's singular experience.
  • pete38pete38 Posts: 52
    Well I'm a big honda fan, but my last two Accords were built here in the U.S. Just bought a Chevy Prizm to use as a commuter car, what is that? A Toyota Corolla made in the U.S.? Now my Dodge Quad cab should be here any day (I hope) and it is "made" in St. Louis but could have been made in Mexico. I think were dreaming anymore if we think any vechicle is "made in America" All of these vehicles have parts from different countries, and if the car is sprayed here in the U.S. what guarantee do we have that the paint, primer etc. were not made in another country. If you want a car made from parts from just one country..... good luck. I think those high dollar Mercedes are made in Mexico now.... at least some of them.
  • BrutusBrutus Posts: 1,113
    Yeah, Pete is right. My "All American" 1992 Ford F-250 was made in Canada. All of these companies, including the Big Three, are global companies. About the only chance of seeing a truly "All American Made" vehicle might be if Pat Buchanan becomes president and gets his way. I just don't see that happening anytime soon.
  • JTOJTO Posts: 28
    I was told by friends in the autobody biz that during the late 80's/early 90's the big three had used water based paints. I guess for some environmental reasons. Look at any 86-92 tuarus or 87+ chevy with dark paint.... either it's wearing off or blowing off in strips!
  • mharde2mharde2 Posts: 278
    If your planning to keep you vehicle for a long time, go with white. Its the only color that doesn't fade, its easy to clean up, doesn't show scratches (hardly), goes with anything, and it cool...
  • enetheneth Posts: 285
    JTO

    No, the problems with paint peeling on GM, Ford and Chrysler cars and trucks didn't come from any environmental restriction or from the use of waterbased paint.

    The Big Three bought into a money-saving type of paint that supposedly didn't require a primer. They built many different models of cars and trucks with that paint process, and the result often was that the paint peeled after a few years.

    If there had been a decree that automakers had to use waterbased paint, then ALL cars built during that time frame would have had problems - not just Detroit models.
  • 34363436 Posts: 25
    I,m a PPG paint technician 20 years, the problem is caused by the UV protector left out of the paint.Then the sun penetrates through the paint because of to much of the UV is left out of the paint, it then chalks the primer.When it gets a chip it will peel in that area.The next car you see peeling wipe your hand on the primer,it will come of on your hand.The factories try to mix the paint with just enough UV because it is very expensive, some batches of paint may get alittle more that is why not all the cars peel.With PPG paints we give a life time guarantee for not peeling[in writing] we put more then enough UV in are paints.we are the only paint co. that will give it in writing, so if you ever need painting on your car look for a PPG shop in your area.
  • lwflwf Posts: 223
    3436. Thats good to know. Can you tell me if Ford uses PPG? The reason I want to know is I had 50 miles on my new pickup when a Home Depot employee dropped am iron pipe against the door. Its only a 1-inch scratch, but the HD management offered to pay for repainting the door. It'll cost them $309, but so far I haven't done it; I just used a touch-up I bought from Ford. The reason I'm reluctant to repaint the door is because I have an idea that in 3 or 4 years the door and the rest of the truck are going to be different shades of red. Do you think that's a valid concern if it is PPG paint?
  • JTOJTO Posts: 28
    eneth,

    The GM's I've seen have some kind of primer where the paint once was, and the Fords look as if the clear coat is wearing off. I was thinking more along the lines of waste disposal..... saving them money. But I'm figuring it cost them more money in repainting.
  • 34363436 Posts: 25
    LFW.Do not have much time tonight to write check back in a few days.
  • 34363436 Posts: 25
    lfw. I would not worry because they will not paint the whole door.They will only paint the area that needs to be painted and then clear the whole door.If the scratch is close to a adjacent panel they will have to blend in to it for a invisible repair and clear that panel to.Make sure they do it that way when you take in for repairs, they know how to because we all go to the same school every two year to keep up to date on all the new products and how to use them. Then the shop has to get certified buy PPG every two years.
    As of last year none of the big three use PPG as a top coat because,they have their own specs on how to mix the paints that they want.[very little uv ] . PPG does have most of the primers on the three companys along with alot of the imports. hope this helps answer your questions
  • lwflwf Posts: 223
    Thanks again 3436. I took it to two different paint shops (this Ford dealer doesn't have it's own, but these were the two it recommended). Both shops said they would have to paint the whole door; otherwise, the junction between the newly painted and the previously painted would be visable. The prices were within $20 of each other. One said that because the color is fire-engine red, the two different colors would probably "age" differently and he couldn't guarantee they'd both be the same color in a few years. The other said he would guarantee his work, but I couldn't get him to define what that meant. Would he keep repainting the door as long as I had the truck if the colors became different? Or would he repaint the whole truck? I couldn't really get a straight answer, and he certainly wouln't put it in writing. Now that you tell me the existing Ford paint has "very little uv", I think I'll just stick with the touch-up paint I used. I see the scratch every time I open the door, but I doubt if anyone else ever notices it.

    But I really appreciate your explanation of what has been going on in the new-car paint world.
    And I have to admit I must have been wrong in what I said above in which I inferred there never has been a real problem with the paint on American-made cars and trucks. I never had one, and I've bought a lot of vehicles, but now I realize that I was just lucky to have not bought in the time frame you indicated.

    But what's the final answer to the question that started this topic. Does anyone know if the Big 3
    are still having the paint problems that I previously didn't think ever really existed. Is it really true that with the billions of dollars behind Chrysler, Ford and GM, none of them can find someone who knows how to paint a vehicle?
  • BrutusBrutus Posts: 1,113
    How much more would it add to the cost of a full size truck on average if they used this PPG paint?
  • enetheneth Posts: 285
    JTO,

    Yes, there is primer under the paint - even the stuff that delaminates (peels).

    The story I've seen most often is that the Big Three were sold on a paint process by a major manufacturer (both PPG and DuPont were implicated) that allowed the skipping of a priming step - while it didn't eliminate primer entirely, it did save money since one less coat of primer had to be used.

    Not every car or truck peeled - but a lot of them did. GM and Ford acknowledged the problem to some degree, repainting some (a friend's Olds, for one). To my knowledge, Chrysler didn't acknowledge responsibility - and there's a Dodge Shadow sitting outside belonging to a neighbor, which has no paint at all on any of its horizontal surfaces.

    If the real culprit were the EPA, then the Japanese companies operating U.S. plants would have had similar problems - which they did not. There may be isolated incidences of paint problems, but nothing like the ones you see on some Big Three vehicles.
  • 34363436 Posts: 25
    ENETH,

    You are wrong about one less coat on the primer because, it is done by electrostatic. That is why they call it e-coat which is all done in one step for applying the primer. There are sever other steps before primer which consist of many washing steps to get it ready for the e-coat.

    AS far the companys being sold on a paint process is not true. All of the big three have their own chemist and on site representative[paint company] working full time for them they can afford a chemist and the paint company supplys their representative. So they know what they are putting on for paint they are just cutting corners to save money. I have been in a big company[freightliner and honda] before and seen how it works. They were not one of the big three but they all work the same way. I do know people who have been in the other three so i know they work the same way.
  • lwflwf Posts: 223
    I had a building contractor at my house yesterday giving me an estimate on some needed repair work. After we finished with the reason he came, I complimented him on the condition of his pickup (86 or 87 F250). He said "It should look good. Ford just repainted it free of charge a while back". Thinking of this conference topic, I said "Yeah, I understand Ford painted some cars and trucks badly trying to save a few dollars on each one". His reply was "Well, I don't see where they saved. It must have cost a bundle to repaint all those trucks. If I had to go back and redo my work the way they have to redo theirs, I'd be bankrupt".
  • enetheneth Posts: 285
    3436

    Before you completely condemn the hypothesis I mentioned, check out

    http://www.mindspring.com/~tracey/gmpaint.html#Q3

    It's just one of many sites out there that provide information about the paint problem.

    I don't know how you can cite Honda as a reference, because as far as I know, they haven't had any paint-delamination problems - the peeling has been confined largely to the Big Three.
  • lwflwf Posts: 223
    3436,

    Well, this is another good piece of information you've provided us with. There's another great article there regarding "acid rain" that I really became interested in because, as I said above, I once bought a Camry that had what I believed had a bad paint job. Although the dealer at first tried to dismiss it as acid rain and, therefore, not his responsibility, I persisted with my complaining and got the car replaced. I had told the dealer at the time that I didn't belive this acid-rain excuse, and until now I've always wondered what the true story is. Now, 11 years later, I have an official report that goes into a lot of detail, but in the end says: "In short, since auto manufacturers have presented no solid evidence that acid rain damage occurs following proper paint application and hardening, this assertion should not be permitted to avoid warranty coverage". It sure makes me feel good to know that my hunch appears to have been substantiated, and the dealer excuse of "acid rain" appears to be just a big lie. It wasn't acid rain at all. It was just a lousy paint job by Toyota.
  • FETZFETZ Posts: 51
    Any opinions on paint that fades prematurely?

    I bought a brand new metallic grey '93 F150 in February '94.

    In spite of the fact it was parked out of the sun in a parking garage 5 days a week while I was at work, the paint began to fade after I had it for 9
    months. I took it to the dealer, who agreed with me that it had bad paint, but they had to get a
    representative from Ford corporate to approve a new paint job.

    The representative looked at the truck, and flatly
    (and rudely) denied there was any problem with the factory paint job. I wrote letters to Ford, but all they did was send me surveys asking if the situation had been resolved to my satisfaction, and would I buy another Ford product again? (to which I angrily replied NO! and NO!).

    I tried going through all the proper channels, but
    kept getting stonewalled. I finally consulted an
    attorney about suing Ford so I could get them to
    paint the truck. He told me I may as well spend my
    own money to paint the truck and save myself the
    aggravation, because after the money I would have
    to pay him for the litigation, it would cost about
    the same.

    I thought about the situation for a few more
    months. And it really pissed me off to write out
    those monthly payment checks to Ford Credit while I looked out the window at my faded truck. I may as well mention this truck was a mechanical lemon also.

    I finally decided to save myself any more
    aggravation, and traded it in on a new Chevy truck, that I've been happy with so far (2 years).
  • ToddpToddp Posts: 4
    too FETZ,

    What can you expect from a company that would
    rather pay lawsuits on people killed in PINTOS
    than repair the problem. I have had bad luck
    w/chevy also not only the paint but dealerships
    also. i will only own an import vehicle from now
    on. I have a 90 4-runner that has almost 200,000
    on it and toyota had a recall on head gaskets.
    i called a week ago and they said they would honor the repair. and provide me with a loaner car while
    it is being repaired. this vehicle only had a
    60/100,000 warranty. not bad for a foreign co.
    the american co's dont get it that people by
    at least 3-5 new cars in there life time.
    repeat business does'nt mean anything too them.
    good luck with your chevy. hope the paint
    holds up.

    Todd Pierce
  • FETZFETZ Posts: 51
    Todd P. -

    I would buy a Toyota too, if only they made 3/4 or 1 ton trucks with big engines (I have a large travel trailer to tow). When / if they do, I'll be one of the first in line to buy one.

    I have friends with Toy's, and they've never had problems with them. My buddy's Toy had the head gasket problem too (at 120,000 mi.) and Toyota took care of it.

    Thanks for the "good luck" on my Chevy. One more comment on Ford - if "Quality is job one" were true, they would be building Toyotas.
  • 34363436 Posts: 25
    ENETH,

    I,m not sure where they got their information on that site you sent me because, I have documentation from Ford dated 1990 on how to repaint their vehicles. [all Fords dated before 1990 with paint failure]. If we did not follow their steps stated on the paper work we did not get PAID. The first few steps are: 1. WASH WITH SOAP AND WATER.
    2.DEWAX VEHICLE

    3.REMOVE ALL MOLDINGS

    4.STRIP PAINT OFF LEAVENING AS MUCH OF THE E-COAT AS POSSIBLE.

    There are 14 pages on the way we had to strip and paint the vehicles with the word e-coat mentioned several times.

    If you go to #4) Isn,t this EPA,s fault, paragraph two on the site you sent me to it says "manufactures to skip a step between the color coat and clear coat". That tells me it is the Paint Co. fault not the Primer Co. I have never heard of spraying a color coat on and then applying something over the top of it to make it stick to the primer under it and then spraying clear on top of it. The powder or liquid would have to be clear so it would not change the color. I do not remember too many of the vehicles even being clear coated when I stripped them. I think it is still the UV problem like I said before, I,m not trying to stick up for PPG as the Primer Co. because, I do not believe PPG was any better than the other paint companys in the 80's. The 90's are a different story with the urethane paints and primers.
  • richflynnrichflynn Posts: 147
    3436,
    OK, so how should we be taking care of today's clear coated paint jobs? Are there any brands of wax worse than others? Wax, how often? Any advice would be appreciated.
    Rich
  • 34363436 Posts: 25
    Rich, you should wax your truck at least four to six times per year. The number of times depend on how much time it spends in the sun. I use Meguiar's paste wax, a paste seems to last longer then the liquid wax. Mother's is another good wax. My Vette magazine likes Meguiar's over the other waxes, they have done some testing on it. So they always recommend Meguiar's over the others. You can use a polish just before you wax to help with small scrathes and it will give it a better shine.
  • ruzruz Posts: 59
    (2345) --

    There's no need to spam multiple topics with the same information. I deleted your repeated posts in this topic, where it's off-topic, and have hid it elsewhere in the conference.
  • richflynnrichflynn Posts: 147
    2345,
    Thank you! Your advice is appreciated!
    Rich
  • dunbartondunbarton Posts: 46
    lwf

    For what it's worth, I have always waxed my own vehicles. I use "Liquid Glass" and poo-pood all those "Lasts 6 months" crap, but it DOES last longer than anything else I ever used. It ain't cheap (about $15 a can), and I get about 4 waxings from it doing it twice a year. My vehicles are outside all the time too. It's also very gentle with the clearcoat which is critical on vehicles today. You get what you pay for ........ Dunbarton
  • lwflwf Posts: 223
    dunbarton,

    Thanks for the info,...... but are you confusing me with someone else? I don't recall being involved in any discussions about the best way to wax my pickup, but I'll give the Liquid Glass a try. I'll have to admit, I've not been impressed with any other car wax I've ever tried, and I've been trying them for about 50 years. It would be great if this one was different.
  • dunbartondunbarton Posts: 46
    lwf,

    Could have confused you with another and I apologize if I did. Too many "conferences" but they are all good ones.

    Anyhow, keep in mind that "Liquid Glass" is NOT a cleaner, start with a cleanly washed vehicle. You won't notice a difference immediately but keep a careful eye on it 4-5 months later and you will see it's still there. It won't cure bad paint but will keep it nice longer.

    While not a chemist, I found out about it by asking the prossessionals and contacting the manufacturer. It simply contains MORE of what is good in car waxes, silicones and polymers, which are exspensive. I am getting too old to be compounding and paste waxing cars anymore.

    I live in New Jersey with a lot of pollution, acid rain, widely varying climate conditions, outside care parking, etc. and can see a difference. Dunbarton
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