Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

All About PHILL

1246

Comments

  • yerth10yerth10 Member Posts: 431
    Honda Civic-GX is the only CNG vehicle (among Light Vehicles) sold in US (World's #1 market).
    And it costs a hefty 25,000 K with a range of 200 miles on full tank.

    If Honda can make this car a Bi-Fueled with 10 miles on CNG and another 300 miles on Gasolene,
    people can use CNG during the 1st 10 miles of their daily commute and weekend shopping.

    At 10 miles / day and even if they drive for 300 days / year, it comes to 3,000 miles in CNG
    which is roughly 20-25 % of the mileage driven.

    If a CNG tank for 200 miles costs $ 5,000 then the smaller tank with 10 mile range may cost
    only around $ 500 and that may put this car at an affordable $ 21,000 and also allowing anyone
    to buy it an travel farther without worrying about CNG station. The extra $ 3,000 which is paid
    towards this vehicle (compared to $ 18,000 for regular Civic DX) can be obtained during the
    vehicle's lifetime.

    This could popularise CNG vehicles a lot along with Honda. Afterall, there are 5 million +
    CNG powered vehicles in the World and its the next alternative fuel after Ethanol.

    http://www.iangv.org/content/view/17/35/
  • jetboatjohnnyjetboatjohnny Member Posts: 104
    What are you smoking?
    10 miles? are you serious?
    Most people in the Southern California area are lucky they dont have to go more than a few miles out of their way to get fuel, but that means then you are left with maybe 5 miles of fuel, what is the point?
    Also a Civic GX will not run on pump gas, even if you converted it, you would have to run race fuel or Avgas, the compression ratio is 12.5 to 1.
    I agree the cars have a hefty price tag, but you can get smokin deals on a used one.
    If you want a bi-fuel car buy one, I dont want these cars to be popular just so they can spew out hydrocarbons.
    Or do like I do and own 2 cars, one for traveling and recreation, and a NGV for commuting.
  • musicmannmusicmann Member Posts: 29
    First, the $500 fee for Orange County Fire Authority plan check is not the current amount. Because this message had filtered down through many people before it got to me, "around $500" became $500. Per two people who are in the know at OCFA, the fee is still $615.

    I spoke at the Orange County Fire Authority Executive Committee meeting last evening. I talked about the advantages of CNG vehicles, the convenience of Phill, and how that the OCFA fee is a disincentive for the public to consider CNG vehicles. Further I requested that the OCFA begin considering either substantially reducing their fee or waiving it entirely. Since I was giving input on an item that was not on the agenda, the committee does not take action on the issues brought up in this section of public comment. One of the board members did request that this topic be put on the agenda for their next meeting. This is the best response that I could have anticipated. Now, they could potentially take official action toward reducing or eliminating this fee.

    This topic will be on the agenda for the meeting on November 16, 2006 at 6:00 P.M. in Irvine.

    I have already contacted Fuelmaker and American Honda and told them the result of last night's meeting. Further, I suggested to them that they each send a representative to the November 16 meeting to give public input on this agenda item. This would be a good time for some of you also to give your input. Anyone interested?

    After last night's meeting ended, a Deputy Fire Marshal and a representative from the finance department of OCFA spoke to me. They mentioned that OCFA is currently involved in a fee review. They are looking at all of their current fees and seeing if they need any adjustment. The fee review will not be finished until March or April, but they anticipate that the fee for a plan inspection of a Phill installation could be reduced by another $200.

    Since I'm satisfied with paying $1.899 per gge at Clean Energy stations for another 17 months, and since there have been fewer than 30 Phill units leased by American Honda that have taken the $2000 AQMD incentives, I am willing to wait awhile before ordering a Phill unit. In the mean time, I will continue to pursue the issue of reducing or eliminating the OCFA plan check fee. I hope that this will be helpful to many CNG vehicle owners and future owners. Wish me luck!
  • rogerbohlrogerbohl Member Posts: 34
    Thanks, on behalf of all of us CNG users, for taking the time and effort to work this issue. Even at cost (_ hrs times (wage + loadings)) $600 sounds high. And for something that has positive social externalities, society (the govt.) should subsidize the cost. I'm a bit removed from the geography, in SF, else I'd be there.
  • musicmannmusicmann Member Posts: 29
    I am cautiously optimistic about the possible outcome regarding the Orange County Fire Authority and the discussion of their plan check inspection fee. This topic is item number 10 on the agenda of their Board of Directors meeting scheduled for 6:00 P.M. on Thursday, November 16, 2006 in Irvine.

    I anticipate that there will be a representative from American Honda and a representative from Fuelmaker at the meeting. If we really believe in "Power to the People", this would be a good time for us to participate in the public process and express our desire for the Board of Directors to waive this disincentive to CNG vehicles. Each member of the public is allowed three minutes to speak to the Board of Directors. This public input will be taken just prior to the Board discussing it as an agenda item. In order to participate in the public input, you must fill out a form at the meeting indicating your desire to address the Board on this issue. I hope that some of you will be able to attend the meeting.

    It's easy for us to express our gripes with each other, but it's more effective if we air our concern in a respectful way in front of those who can actually do something about it.
  • fbaldwinfbaldwin Member Posts: 34
    After 1000 hours of use my Phill unit is compressing natural gas at about the same rate as new. When my fuel tank is near empty it compresses about 68 cubic feet an hour. When the tank is near full is will compress about 60 cubic feet an hour.

    (Assuming 100 cu/ft = 1 therm and 114 cu/ft = 1 gge)

    Considering that natural gas cost $0.73 per therm, this car is cheap to drive. ($0.73 lower rate for home fueling in Los Angeles)
  • musicmannmusicmann Member Posts: 29
    airmar
    Is your Phill installation complete yet? Care to tell us how that went?
  • airmarairmar Member Posts: 10
    Complete! It was finished mid-December.
    The installer was a little slow, but knew what he was doing since he installs Phills alot.
    The building inspector was a hoot. He came out for the initial inspection prior to tieing in the gas line. He was done and about to leave when he made the comment that this was the first one he's seen that wasn't made by Noritz. Yeah, thats right the guy thought it was a tank-less water heater.
    The installer came back and tied in the gas-line so the building inspector and fire dept could do the "final" inspection sign-off. The fire dept sent out a gal who had absolutely no idea what she was looking at. She tried reading the installation instructions to figure out what, if anything, she should be looking at. Befuddled, she muttered something about putting an "emergency shut-off" placard on the plug and then signed it off. The building inspector came out and was only interested in looking for the fire dept's sign-off. So, for my $1200 in fees, that's what I got.
    A couple of words on the installation. It is an outside mounting and the city wanted it behind my gate. They were worried about someone else using it, yeah right stealing gas at a 1/2 gallon an hour. Anyway, the unit is mounted high, the installation called for 5' clearance underneath unless you put metal barriers in the concrete. It is just inside my gate so when I back my car in the driveway the fill point on the car is only about 7' from the unit. The hose is one of those curled types shown in the pictures. It does reach ok, but there is a lot of spring-type pull on it due to the curl.
    I asked the installer about extending the hose. He said you couldn't. He said the inside attachment is hard to get to, and kind of sealed off. I mentioned extending the other end but he shot that down saying that the hose is double walled and or has some sensor in it to detect leaks. One guy he knew of tried adding a extender. The owner got a short piece of hose with male-female ends. He said it didn't work because the Phill unit thought it was detecting a leak and kept shutting down.
    So...The installation is complete, and installed well. The time to fill is as advertised, about 1/2 gallon an hour. Since I only drive about 4 gallons a day, it fits my needs ok. Get home and plug it in, wake-up and drive away with a full tank. The unit is rubber-shock mounted so you can't feel it in the house, and is not noisy at all. It has a small-fan type of noise if you are near it. The only gripe is the hose. It "stretches" out fine but do to the curl design, it puts a constant tension pull on the car's fill port.
    One word on dependability. The installer said that he has been doing a lot of warranty replacements. He said the units have had electrical PC board problems. The device is so full of automatic systems/detectors the they would suddenly stop working. The Fuelmaker has given him a couple of "loaner" units. He comes out and hangs the loaner unit (very easy and quick) and ships the broken one back to the factory. He says he has been doing that a lot, but mostly with the earlier units. I'm crossing my fingers that my unit is not one of those "earlier units".
  • fbaldwinfbaldwin Member Posts: 34
    My unit installed in the City of Los Angeles was simple. The inspector from LADBS showed up with a training manual and simply told me to install the two steel post (to protect the unit from vehicle damage)and the break away device that came with Phill. Total permit for a new sub panel, outlet and gas line was was under $100.00. Los Angeles Fire Department did not have any interest in the system. Photos of my outdoor unit mounted on power strut is posted on the CNG Yahoo groups photos.
  • usmanshafiusmanshafi Member Posts: 1
    hey, im really confused about this whole phill thing. could you help me out and tell me how much it would cost just to buy a phill, without all the installation fee's etc. just the ammount of the phill unit. e-mailing me at usmanshafi101@gmail.com would help ALOT!! anyone who knows =D
  • bank1avpbank1avp Member Posts: 78
    $3400 w/o the sniffer (outdoor use) $3500 with the sniffer (indoor use). Fuelmaker will not allow anyone other than a certified Fuelmaker rep to install it, so you are stuck with their install fees. Dave C. is our AZ Fuelmaker rep and he has been extremely fair but I have heard of others not so kind in their install fees. You can purchase a used FM if you can find one and anyone can install that plumber/electrician.
  • nostrom0nostrom0 Member Posts: 44
    I installed my unit in unincorporated LA County in May, 2005, and the inspector took two looks at it and wouldn't sign the permit. So technically my unit's illegal, but he never came back.
  • airmarairmar Member Posts: 10
    My cost was 3,400 for the unit with a (now non-existant rebate) of 2,000 the effective cost was 1,400.

    It took months for "approved installer" to get to me on his list.

    The fire department took 615 in plan check fees.
    The city (Mission Viejo) took 400+ in permit fees.

    The unit is small and slow, something they made for the home consumer (fine for me). The same company, Fuelmaker, also makes faster commercial units. I don't think they will sell to you directly and they would be expensive.

    If I did it over again (and couldn't get the 2,000) rebate I'd go a different route. The commercial fuelmaker units are available on the used market rebuilt. They are just about as small size-wise and rebuilt they cost about the same as the PHILL unit. They fill faster and are rebuldable (the PHILL is not rebuildable). Also, if you bought the used fuelmaker unit you wouldn't be stuck using one of fuelmaker's approved installers. If you installed it yourself or had someone else do it, it would still officially need to be permited and inspected. Unless you wanted to chance it.
    There is one company in Arizona where you can get quality rebuilt fuelmaker commercial units.
    Hope this helps.
  • bank1avpbank1avp Member Posts: 78
    I'll have a used "commercial" unit available in a few days if anyone is interested FM4 to be exact. Pumps 1 GGE per hour. May be offering a cascade system with it so you can fast fill like the big CNG stations from home.
  • moore101moore101 Member Posts: 39
    Fuelmaker has decided that the Phill is rebuildable from their FAQ at http://www.myphill.com/faq.htm

    How long will Phill run?
    Phill is designed to run for approximately 6000 hours of use at which time it can be refurbished. This can be done a maximum of 3 times, extending its life to 24,000 hours of operation. Please contact FuelMaker customer service for more information.

    No word on cost though....
  • moore101moore101 Member Posts: 39
    Anyone wondering what a normal phill installation looks like there are quite a few pictures at the CivicGXNGV yahoo group.
  • thatdeonguythatdeonguy Member Posts: 52
    Great to see some activity here.
    WOW I thought I had problems w/my install.
    I have one of the first units in O.C.
    NO Problems at all. Phill just fills.
    I haven't been to a public pump in months.
    What is the $ per GGE?
  • lakewood90712lakewood90712 Member Posts: 108
    $1.99 to $ 2.07 BTW , Anaheim is back in service.
  • dejapoohdejapooh Member Posts: 40
    My wife is currently driving a Nice Big Van, but we are thinking of getting her a used Victoria or maybe a smaller ford CNG bi-fuel. If we get the Phill, you can count on it. Anyhow, Some of these other cars are 3000 psi tanks. Can you use a phill on these? Should we stick to 3600 psi cars? Thoughts appreciated.
  • cngusercnguser Member Posts: 59
    Read the labeling on any vehicle before attempting to fill with 3000 or 3600 psi. A 3600 psi vehicle CAN be almost) filled with a 3000 psi fueler pump. But the nozzle set up will not allow a 3000 psi vehicle to attach to a 3600 psi fueler pump. (Like the unleaded vs leaded gas nozzle days).
    The Phill unit is 3600 psi only. You will not be able to use it on the Ford Contour Bi-Fuel car.
    Also beware that now over time, many of the compuvalves on those cars are failing, and you are in for some expen$ive replacement costs, unless you have one that is <8 years old or < 80K miles on it that would still be under Ford warranty.
    (See my posting #198 on the CNG Vehicles forum). This happened on both of my 2000 Contours within 3 months of eachother...
  • londnrlondnr Member Posts: 55
    I am not giving advice - merely information. The guy that I sold my 3000 psi Crown Victoria to had the receiver changed to 3600 psi. He said it worked fine.

    Again, I am just reporting the facts!
  • musicmannmusicmann Member Posts: 29
    Anyone who would like to review my comments regarding how the November meeting of the Orange County Fire Authority went with respect to their plan and inspection fee to install a Phill unit can see my posts #205 and #206 on the "Natural Gas fueled vehicles" discussion forum.

    This item is again on the agenda for the Board of Directors' meeting to be held on Thursday, January 25, 2007 at 6:30 P.M. in Irvine. Anyone who would like to make a public comment regarding this issue is welcome.

    I am waiting to get a copy of the staff report that will be presented to the Board of Directors, but in talking with the Deputy Fire Marshal, here is what I understand the staff recommendation will be:
    1. The installer will be responsible to ensure that the unit is of the correct type and that the plans for installation are all within recommendations. The installer will complete a check-off list and sign it when the permit is pulled. This will streamline the plan check process by placing the bulk of that responsibility on the installer instead of the Fire Authority inspector.
    2. After the installation is completed, the Fire Authority will send out an inspector who will confirm that everything was installed correctly and that the unit and all safety features are working correctly.
    3. The cost for these services will be about $217.50 using a rate of $145.00 per hour for 1.5 hours.

    It would be nice for the Orange County Fire Authority Board of Directors to waive the fee entirely in the interests of encouraging people to use CNG. However, they may decide to adopt the staff recommendations that I have outlined above. If that is the case, at least the cost will be substantially lower than what it used to be. I suspect that the board will take some action on this issue at the January 25 meeting.
  • bank1avpbank1avp Member Posts: 78
    I don't understand what the problem is with OCFA? Installing FM happens pretty much every where else in the US without a hitch. Is it truly concern on the OCFA part or is it them holding out their hand?

    Dave Clement did the install at my house. Came to visit once, submitted a planned drawing of the install to the city, once approved I think he paid $25 for the permit, came out the 2nd time to run the plumbing and electrical and install. The entire thing cost me $750 including the permit fee.

    If it hasn't already been done I would research what other states/cities are doing regarding the install of a FM and bring it up durign the meeting. Does the OCFA require an inspection for your NG water heater? NG stove? NG heat pump? >>>>>Wow I'm getting frustrated about this whole thing and I'm not even going through it. I can imagine how you feel. Let me know if there anything I can do to help.

    Murphy
  • cngusercnguser Member Posts: 59
    Murphy hit it on the head here: why does OCFA feel they have rights to virtually RE-certify a product / installation that is built to multiple gas appliance code standards, local plumbing & electrical codes and must be installed by a certified technician, etc. Perhaps as a group (CNG home fueler owners) a class action suit could be made to show just cause here. OR else demand that all other residential gas appliances be similarly rigorously inspected by OCFA with hefty fee$ imposed. That would sure raise some more eyebrows!
    Don't mean to butt in to Orange County policies, but as an out of state fueler owner, I find it outrageous what they are implementing there. This is not a live FLAME burning appliance, nor does is store gas.
    Yes, I had to get local plumbing and electrical permits, but the local fire authority did not have to get a piece of the action.
    What is the process for other locales in California on permits to install a home fueler?
  • musicmannmusicmann Member Posts: 29
    The Fire Marshal at Orange County Fire Authority has decided that all home refueling units installed within the area that they service will be inspected. I mentioned the issue of whether or not the Fire Authority even needs to be involved with an installation to the American Honda representative yesterday, and she said that with every installation that she has been involved, someone from the local fire department inspected the installation.

    A major difference with Orange County Fire Authority is the way they are funded. Orange County Fire Authority serves many cities as well as the unincorporated areas of Orange County. They receive funds from the cities that they serve for fire services. They do not receive funds for inspections. Thus, they have a policy of recovering their costs by charging the ones who are being inspected. Many cities that have their own fire department do not charge for fire inspections as this cost is part of the city budget.

    The Orange County Fire Authority argues that installing a home refueling device is not the same as installing a water heater or stove. Their position is that these devices are new to the market and are more complex with their sensors, shut-off feature, and alarm. Thus, they want to be involved with inspecting them when they are installed.

    Personally, I am not philosophically opposed to the notion of having the Fire Authority inspect my future Phill installation. I plan on installing the unit inside my garage. My garage has living space adjacent to one wall and upstairs above the garage. Also, I have a natural gas water heater with a continuously burning pilot light inside the garage about 21 feet away from where the Phill unit will be installed. I definitely do not want a gas leak related to the Phill unit or my car. If the Orange County Fire Authority wants to send another pair of eyes that will help to ensure that everything is done right, I welcome them. What I am opposed to is their expensive fee (originally over $900, $615 when I first became aware of it, $435 after the November board meeting, and potentially $217.50 after this month's meeting), and uninformed inspectors like airmar got from both the city and the Orange County Fire Authority (see post #161 on this forum).

    The representative from Honda also told me that she felt that the Orange County Fire Authority staff had done the best they could to streamline their process and still hold to their policies of inspecting the units and recovering their costs through their fees. That seems to be true.

    I am not in favor of some sort of law suit at this time. First of all, I feel that everyone with whom I have dealt at the Orange County Fire Authority has treated me very respectfully and very professionally. Although we may not see every detail the same way, I feel that they are working with me and not against me. A law suit would destroy that relationship, and it would put them very much on the defensive. I don't think that that is the best way to proceed at this time.

    What I would like to pursue at this time is persuading the Orange County Fire Authority Board of Directors to waive their fee entirely. The Board of Directors consists of a representative from each city that they serve and two representatives (I think) from the county. Thus, each board member also is a public servant in his/her local community. Generally, the Orange County Fire Authority does not waive fees. The only waived fee of which I am aware is the inspection fee for installing a residential sprinkler fire supressant system. A residential sprinkler system is something in which the Orange County Fire Authority has a direct interest; improved fire safety. They do not have such a direct insterest in CNG vehicle refueling, so it may be difficult to persuade some of the board members to waive the fee for inspecting a Phill unit. A couple of arguments that come to mind are:
    1. As public servants, each board member has a responsibility to encourage the public to reduce air polution. Financial incentives can be a good way to encourage the public and fees and taxes can be a way to discourage the public. Waiving the fee removes a financial disincentive for the public and can encourage them to use more CNG for vehicles.
    2. Since the staff has done such a good job of streamlining their inspection process, and since there have been so few Phill units installed in the area serviced by Orange County Fire Authority (3 so far), waiving the fee will not impose a tremendous burden on the budget of the Orange County Fire Authority. Furthermore, as more inspections are done, the staff may be able to find additional ways to streamline the process.

    Murphy, you said to let you know what you can do. Well, here is something that we all can do. Either attend the Orange County Fire Authority Board of Directors meeting on January 25, 2007 at 6:30 P.M. in Irvine and give public input recommending that the Board waive the inspection fee entirely, or write a letter to the Board of Directors stating that you would like for them to waive the inspection fee. If you attend the meeting, you need to fill out a form letting them know that you wish to give public input on an agenda item. You will be given three minutes to speak, so plan ahead what you want to say. I realize that many of you live too far away to be able to attend the meeting, but you still could write a letter to the Board of Directors. If you write to them, do it soon, so that that there will be time for the letters to be received and included in the information to the board members. Also, don't just copy my arguments above, use your own words. The address for the Orange County Fire Authority is:
    Board of Directors
    Orange County Fire Authority
    1 Fire Authority Road
    Irvine, CA 92602

    Let's not just get mad and vent, let's see if we can accomplish this with logical and persuasive comments to the Board of Directors from you, the general public who has an interest in CNG vehicles. Power to the people!
  • hondagxsaleshondagxsales Member Posts: 33
    I have the "Permssion to install" and "change of rate" forms for SoCal Gas Co on Yahoo Groups "Civicgxtalk" in the Files>Forms section, as well as tax forms to get the Fed Tax credits for car and Phill. I also hace the Calif DMV HOV sticker application in there.
  • hondagxsaleshondagxsales Member Posts: 33
    SoCal Gas does require permission to install. The problem is that there is an outdated law on the books that requires CNG vehicles to operate on "Fuelgrade" methane. Simply put, it has to have a certain purity level. There are 2 wells that do not meet this requirement. One is the Bakersfield well and the other is offshore. Some beach communities around Santa Barbara and some inland cities, like Santa Clarita, for example are supplied by one of these lines. The bulk of Ca gas is from Canada, Texas and Colorado. Those sources are fine for vehicles. In fact, so is the "non-compliant" gas, which contains higher levels of other gas' like Ethane and Propane... According to SoCal Gas Alt Fuels Division. Ca. is the only state in the union that has not repealed this law. It was hopeful that it was going to be removed from law this month, but SoCal Gas wasn't successful in their efforts. Fear not, it will eventually be removed and all of you who have been banned from the land of Phill will be welcomed.">
  • harleyzharleyz Member Posts: 1
    I would be interested in the FM4 -contact me at harleyzap@aol.com-dave
  • musicmannmusicmann Member Posts: 29
  • musicmannmusicmann Member Posts: 29
    The Board of Directors for the Orange County Fire Authority met this evening. I was the only one there to give input on the agenda item regarding their inspection fee for the installation of a Phill unit. There was no one from Honda, no one from Fuelmaker, no other members of the public. There were no letters from concerned citizens presented for the board to consider. My comments included a request for the Board of Directors to waive their inspection fee in the interests of cleaner air.

    The board member who had been most vocal in supporting my position is no longer on the board. One of the new board members asked about how many units per year are currently inspected. The answer given was that the devices are relatively new, and only three units total have been installed in the area serviced by the OCFA. There was no other discussion. The board voted unanimously to accept the staff recommendation, which focuses on having the installer do the bulk of the plan inspection work and then a Fire Authority Inspector checking the unit and installation after it is completed. The fee will be calculated as 1.5 hours at $145 per hour, for a total fee of $217.50.

    At this time, I'm not sure that I can do anything more on this issue. I hope that it helps some of you and other future NGV owners in our area.
  • dejapoohdejapooh Member Posts: 40
    I got this today. I just called and I am 13th on the waiting list. If this is like the last time, there not be many spaces available.

    As I understand it, they will have to sign the contracts and finalize everything (expected by the end of the month). Either way, this is great news if you have your NGV and you wanted a phill.

    This is the attached Email...

    Hi everyone,



    I have great news for you! I was just advised by South Coast Air Quality Management District (SCAQMD) that grants are now available to purchase Phill. When you purchase Phill you will qualify for the $2,000 SCAQMD grant plus $1,000 Federal Tax Credit lowering the cost of Phill to just $500. If you would like to purchase Phill, contact FuelMaker directly at (866) MY Phill (697-4455).



    This is a great opportunity if you have been debating whether to buy or lease, take advantage of the great savings and at the same time enjoy fueling your Honda Civic GX at the convenience of your home. Don&#146;t forget to submit your paperwork to The Gas Company for the special NGV Home Refueling Rate that is lower than your current residential rate as well as $1.25 per GGE. FuelMaker will provide you with these forms or if interested I am more than happy to forward them to you as well.
  • xpacificxpacific Member Posts: 16
    Called FuelMaker today and they don't have an "official" price for refurbishing just yet, but thought it would be around $2,000. My feeling is that Phill does not make sense from pure economics... As it provides approx. 1/2GGE per hour, you are going to get 3,000 GGEs from the unit, so this is adds around $1.20/GGE (OK, with the $1k tax credit this brings it down to around $0.90). Then you have to send it back for refurbishing, pay another $2k for this as well as some time for someone to re-install it properly. I know there are incentives for S.Cal owners, but anywhere else in the country it does not add up, does it?
  • hondagxsaleshondagxsales Member Posts: 33
    When I spoke to AJ last, he thought the refurb would be around $1500. The unit has a mandatory shuy down programed into it at 6000 hrs to force a service. Both Honda and FuelMaker are finding that the unit may last beyond the 6000 hrs and could be reset and left to run further. The unit is working out better than initially anticipated. There isn't actually a Phill in the field that has hit the 6000 hr mark yet, according to Honda Corporate. Everyone I know that has a Phill seem to feel that the convenience factor outstrips some of the more pragmatic factors.
    Curtis
    Alt Fuels Rep
    Robertson's Palmdale Honda
  • bank1avpbank1avp Member Posts: 78
    I have timed out my Phill at 5600 hours. FM already knows about this and plans to used my Phill to test the "rebuildability" of the Phill. I shouldn't say that it timed out because it will still switch on but it will not pressure up. Towards the end of its life there was a significant deteriation in gge per hour became more like .10 - .25 gge per hour. Weather or not it makes sense to own a Phill remains to be seen. A used FMQ2 sells for the same amount as a new Phill, will pump more than a Phill, and is indefinately rebuildable at the cost of about $900. If the Phill pumps less and costs more to rebuild then wouldn't make much sense. People who own GX's are number crunchers and know exactly what they are paying for stuff.

    Murphy
  • lakewood90712lakewood90712 Member Posts: 108
    Fuelmaker called today , The so cal AQMD released the grant money , so my Phill is being shipped out to Kevin Shaw Plumbing for an install very soon :) .
  • cal_magcal_mag Member Posts: 6
    I got an email from them and ordered one yesterday. Patricia told me to expect a 2-3 week lead time and then an additional week delay since the AQMD just started. How did you get yours to be shipped so soon? I already have my installer lined up too.

    Thanks,

    Jim
  • jetboatjohnnyjetboatjohnny Member Posts: 104
    When I got my GX the first thing I was going to do was get a Phill. After figuring the economics, it will not save me a significant amount of money. I agree the convienience is great, but I am lucky to have a reliable station 4 miles from my house and costs me about 6-7 min in extra time on my commute home, which I can usually make up in the HOV lanes.
    Eventually I will probably get one.
    J
  • dejapoohdejapooh Member Posts: 40
    My thing is the volatility of the Gas prices at teh stations. They seem to try to stay within $.50 OF regular gas. With the phill, Gas prices are set by the PUC, and that means price changes are less frequent and less radical.
  • lakewood90712lakewood90712 Member Posts: 108
    Patricia did not give me a shipping date, so you may get it before me.
  • bank1avpbank1avp Member Posts: 78
    Look into a used FMQ2 instead the math makes better sense. They are rebuilable every 400 hours/4000 gallons for roughly $900. You can rebuild them indefinate times. When you want to sell it it's still worth what you paid for it used. If you have trouble finding one let me know I have 8 of them coming in.
  • rstrst Member Posts: 73
    is that 400hr or 4,000hr rebuild time?

    are these the 3600psi units?
  • eddiewhoeddiewho Member Posts: 1
    I might want one of those FMQ2's you've got coming in, please email me at: eddiewho@aol.com
    thanks
  • leducbleducb Member Posts: 1
    Please let me know how much you are asking for 1 of the FMQ2s you have coming in. I am very interested in purchasing one.

    Thanks,
    Elizabeth
  • musicmannmusicmann Member Posts: 29
    Just a point of clarification. Is the FMQ2 approved for installation in a closed garage like Phill?
  • bank1avpbank1avp Member Posts: 78
    Only the Phill is approved for indoor use. C3,FM4, and FMQ2's are all outdoor units only. These units lack a sniffer and a cutoff device if they were to leak NG.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    Posting your e-mail address on a public message board gives every human being in the world access to your address (this includes spammers). You're much better off to mark your address "public" in your profile, for your own privacy!

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • xpacificxpacific Member Posts: 16
    As many have posted, Phill does not make much economic sense, given the rebuild (or trash?) requirement at 6,000 hours (3,000 gge). The thing is probably way overpriced anyway, especially as Honda made a big splash with the supposed $2k price when it was first announced, and rumors are it is heading up to $4k. :surprise:

    It sounds like FuelMaker needs some competition. Anyone know of similar indoor fueling products?
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    A lot of folks are very cautious about getting unsolicited emails and keep their email address private for that reason. If you want to get indirect contact with another user in that situation, your best option (as Kirstie pointed out) is to mark your email "public" in your profile, then ask that person to click on your username and get in contact with you. Doesn't guarantee that they WILL, but it's the safe and polite option ;)
  • jetboatjohnnyjetboatjohnny Member Posts: 104
    There is a company in the UK that makes a device. It says it will fill a 90 liter tank in 10 hours, which is about 20 gallons, so say 2 gal/hr. I think the 200 bar pressure is only about 3,000 psi.
    http://www.gasfill.com/
    http://www.gasfill.com/products.htm
  • kermit4kermit4 Member Posts: 9
    People should definitely check the math on what works for them. My local AQMD offers $2k incentives on purchasing the Phill, so for us that's definitely the way to go, since we will effectively get the original Phill plus one rebuild for $3500. We'll front up $1500 for purchase instead of $3500-4k for the FMQ2. Based on our driving habits, that means it would take ten years (five years on the original Phill, five years on the rebuild) before we would break even if we went with a FMQ2. By that time, there might be reasonably priced CNG pumps all over the area, with no need to fuel at home.

    On the other hand, maybe we'll have two CNG vehicles by then, and wish we'd gone with the heavy-duty pump ;)
This discussion has been closed.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles