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Toyota Camry TSBs and Trouble Codes

I was grousing about the shifting in my new '05 XLE, and found many related discussions on various forums. Basically there's a "lag" then you want to accelerate (ie. from a standing stop) which some people rank from annoying to dangerous. In my case, it's more the annoyance factor.
Anyway, apparently there's a TSB on this, titled "ECM CALIBRATION: SHIFT FEELING ENHANCEMENT". In fact, Infotraxx.com lists two, TC005-05 and TC003-05. I'm not sure if they apply to different specific models or what. AllData.com, curiously, lists neither.

I'd like to review these TSBs to see if they're actually relevant, and arm myself with pertinent info so that when I visit my dealer, I can point them to exactly the right TSB covering the problem.

Can anybody here help me gather the required info, or perhaps a copy of the TSB(s)?

Thanks;
Brad.
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Comments

  • My 2005 Toyota Camry with 1500 miles on it, sometimes feel like it "air brakes" or engine brakes at 40 mph when deaccelerating. My guess is that is that everything is new and has to be broken in Any suggestions?
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    If you are going down a hill that's steep enough when this occurs, the "grade logic" feature in the automatic transmission may be downshifting the tranny from 5th gear to 4th, or sometimes even to 3rd. You can tell by checking your tachometer. This is more likely to occur if you tap the brake pedal, because this signals to the car that you want to slow down going downhill.
  • I have a 2006 SE with the same symptoms at 1300 mi. It almost feels as though the trans. is sticking between gears when trying to decelerate or even maintain a speed of 38-40 mph. Maybe this is a characteristic of the 5-speed automatic? I'm gonna have mine checked sometime soon. :confuse:
  • sean3sean3 Posts: 158
    H, I am needing to purchase the best quality reasonably priced sedan for the money, I found a Green '02 LE Camry w/47K for $12,995. at a local toyota dealer, however this is Not a certified car, it just happens to be on a toyota lot, It is Extremely clean, in fact looks like the 2006's sitting next to it...is this a good price? I am In Illinois. Ok heres the thing..I am 27 and actually in some off beat, perverse way, I think If you look at the camry from the right angle, it actually has potential?! please let me know if I am the only person under 30 or 90 years old that would actually drive on of these...... w/ut an AARp membership? If it were beige, tan, or silver forget it but the green is actually not bad....from what I understand the sludge problem does not affect the current generation Camry? Any pointers on the 2002 LE 4cylinder? I would of course stick some 17's on it and Order a spoiler, and perhaps Altezza rear lamps (if possible)
    Mainly I want a lasting car...2002 Camry 4cyl LE, normal equipment, Green 47K, 12,995 asking price at local Toyota dealer, this vehicle is NOT certified and only carries a 30 day Powertrain warranty...I noticed even older camry's on used car lots with over 100K carried a 90 day wearranty?? Why are toyota dealers so cheap, my god they only clean up on every car they sell, Never had a Toyota, this Camry doesn't have a ding or dent, and thats usually the forst thing I notice. Bodywork of any kind. I did notice a few people complained about a Transmission problem, and squeaks and rattles especially on the 2002 camry? and a few engine failures? on 2002's but they were under the V6 heading...Is the V6 a carryover from the 2001 Camry? and the 4cyl is totally new? Thanks, Any info you can provide is great! :) Sean
  • scoti1scoti1 Posts: 676
    Supposedly the sludge problem was corrected on the '02 4 cylinder Camry's (some early model-year 6-cyl. are covered under the sludge policy, but not the 4), but to be safe, you may want to get the valve cover pulled for a sludge inspection.
  • scoti1scoti1 Posts: 676
    bpsmicro,

    You should check out the Engine Hesitation forum here at Edmunds. It is primarily discussing the transmission lag/hesitation problem in Toyota and Lexus. Copies and links to the TSBs have been posted there.

    "Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)"
  • user777user777 Posts: 3,341
    you could ask in the "real world trade in values" forum and indicate you're looking to purchase from a dealer and what it's condition is (mileage, tires, body, etc).

    if you get serious about the vehicle, have it inspected by a independant specializing in toyotas before committing to purchase. for a fee they'll look it over. ask.

    for a nominal fee you can run a carfax report on the car.

    you want to order some 17's, a spoiler, and some special rear lamps. why? the car, if in good condition and reasonable priced, why not keep it stock?

    from what i've read, "certified" vehicles aren't generally any better than non-certified. you're paying a premium for a certified vehicle because it's got a warranty with it. that's my understanding. now if it's super clean, why aren't they offering it "certified"? i don't know. maybe because new ones aren't that much more?

    what are similarly priced vehicles 2005 (i presume '06s are almost here) going for new?

    like i said, the people over in "real-world trade in values" can give you better help on figuring a good price for the car.
  • sean3sean3 Posts: 158
    Yes thanks for the advice, I guess I feel a litle better that this car sits on a Toyota lot, It is in reallt excellent condition...not a ding or dent, the interior the same ,,,I know they are good cars but, I have had some fun cars in my 10 years of driving, not my senses tell me to go with somehting taht will not be a money pit like so many before///the domestics are attractive now with heavy discounts...the only affordable GM that looks good is the Pontiac G6, and even that is 5 years to late it seems///on the other side the newer styled malibu is going for 16K brand new, and I did drive one and was inpressed, I thought I was driving an import...but it's looks are kind of homely :( everybody says how boring the 2002+ Camry is but if you really look at it, it looks more like a cheap Lexus...the reason I would get rims, spoiler, tint..is because this particular one is only an LE...w/hubcaps :( any advice on getting a 2002 Camry Vs. A newer GM for around the same price?? I know GM is in terrible shape now...The Impala seems to be one of Gm's better cars? I am just trying to get the Most car for my Money.....Any advice ? thanks sean,,.,
  • msmcg1msmcg1 Posts: 1
    I bought a 2006 Camry LE in December 2005. I am at 1350 miles and I took my car in for the same problem - jerking transmission, down-shifting instead of coasting down hills, etc. Service Rep claims it is designed to do that, has an automatic fuel shutoff when you lift off the accelerator to conserve gas, which cause engine drag. Also claims it is "normal" for car to switch back and forth between gears at around 35-40 mph when accelerator steady on flat road. I have called Toyota Customer Experience line (800-331-4331) and started a case. This a serious issue - I personally don't feel safe driving a car that can't decide what gear to be in.
  • haefrhaefr Posts: 600
    Your dealer's service rep. is telling you the honest-to-gosh truth. (and I'm NO fan of car dealers!) In addition to four or more forward gears, modern automatic transmissions also have a mechanism that "locks" the rotational speed of the torque converter to that of the engine giving direct 1:1 mechanical efficiency. Guess what speed the torque converter lockup takes place? Yep, 35-40 mph. It feels like an additional shift - and the engine revs drop by about 200 RPM, too. Start likin' it, or at least get used to it. If you're driving right in that speed zone, the transmission will "hunt" back and forth on mild grades as the car speed drops or accelerates slightly. Either slow down, speed up, or drop out of overdrive if you find the sensation annoying. My current car, an '03 Sonata does it. My former car, a '96 Accord did it, too. It's not a Toyota thing. Your "case" will go nowhere fast.
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    My '05 Camry with the 4-cylinder, 5-speed auto downshifts automatically from fifth to fourth or even third, depending on the steepness of the downgrade and the car's speed. I like this feature, because it means I don't have to brake unnecessarily or downshift manually. But mine seems to downshift only if I hit the brakes at some point during the downgrade, which I assume signals to the computer that I don't want the car to continue gaining speed.

    I do not believe my '04 Camry, with the same engine but the older 4-speed automatic, does this. OTOH, with only 4 forward gears, just a press of the overdrive lockout button gets you down into third if you want engine braking on steep downgrades.
  • While haefr's reply certainly sounds technically viable to me, you might want to ask your dealer about his opinion on TSB TC005-05 which, although currently targetting the '04 & '05 models, I'm led to believe it applies to the '06 models as well (there's also an equivalent for the '03 models, but I don't have the numbers handy).

    In the introduction, it lists the following "issues":

    - downshift lag when accelerating at speeds from 10 to 20mph
    - gear hunting when driving on/off accelerator pedal at 20-30mph
    - response rate during heavy acceleration from a stop

    While this TSB *may* not be applicable to what you're describing, and I'd pretty much expect any dealer to say something like that regardless, you gotta admit it sure looks related. :-)

    Brad.
  • 2k1trd2k1trd Posts: 301
    I had this done to my 04 V6 Solara and wow!...it's a whole new car.No more throttle lag,totally happy now.I would suggest this to all 04/05 Solara/Camry owners.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Googled for "Atkinson cycle" & "intake noise".

    I was curious if the intake noise from the Atkinson cycle's reverse airflow, combustion chamber back into the intake manifold, in a 3.3L V6 might be at least part of the reason the RX400h doesn't make use of this fuel economy method.

    Inadvertently found:

    July, 8th, 1999 Final report by SRI, Sierra Research Inc, on "Alternative and Future Technologies for Reducing Greenhouse Gas Emissions from Road Vehicles"

    One of the conclusions is that if the industry switched to 5-speed automatic transmissions, made use of ASL, Aggressive Shift Logic (quicker upshifts), early torque converter clutch lockup, and shift into neutral with brake application and engine at idle, a 9.8% improvement in fuel economy would result. Industry response was that "driveability" would suffer.

    Welcome to 2006.
  • I'm curious how you approached the dealer on this. I've heard that some service managers take a dim view of customers who actually know how to look up TSBs.
    I'm trying to decide whether to just go in with my printed copy and say "do this please", or whether I should go in with a carefully worded complaint that'll make it easier for them to magically find the TSB themselves when they look for it. If they can't find it, then I can produce the copy I printed out "for their convenience".

    I have <6000km on mine, and this is supposed to be a warranty item. I'm not rushing because I want to wait a teensy bit longer to see if anything else shakes out. After 20 years of Toyota ownership, I don't believe I've ever made a warranty claim before. :-)

    Brad.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "...dim view..."

    Then find a new dealer, quickly.
  • 2k1trd2k1trd Posts: 301
    I have a friend that works at the dealer who looked it up for me and actually printed it out for me to give the service writer.Look,a TSB is a TSB and any dealer should have no problem with taking care of it for you no matter what!...plus they get paid to do it.
  • Yeah, you're right. I'm probably just paranoid.

    But here's another question: up here in Canada I'd expect them to refer to the same TSBs. Anyone know if they'd look up the Canadian version (refers to kph instead of mph presumably) via the same number? I'd also be curious as to whether the Canadian equivalent of the "Federal Emissions Warranty" applies in this case.

    Mind you, if they tried to screw me on the warranty coverage, it sounds like it'd be worth paying for anyway.
  • mert2mert2 Posts: 74
    I guess the TSB didn't 'take'. Hesitation is back and just as bad as ever. Wife says get rid of it. I'll start looking at subarus as soon as we send in our last house payment.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Have your service manager replace the accelerator pedal assembly with one that has an VPA output voltage of less than 0.8 volts when at rest, fully released. Less than 0.6 volts would be even better.

    The engine/transaxle ECU firmware is looking for a voltage of less than 0.8 volts as an indication of the accelerator pedal being fully released, at the idle position. The factory tolerance for an acceptable output at rest is 0.5 volts to 1.1 volts.

    Looks like a design flaw.

    Methinks there is a very BASIC misunderstanding going on about the engine/transaxle delay hesitation.

    There is the STANDARD delay EVERYONE experiences at one time or another.

    Toyota is very definitely, by their own admission, using the DBW, E-throttle system, to delay the onset of engine torque developement to "protect the drive train", give the transaxle downshift clutches time to fully and firmly seat. Not any different than any of us would do when downshifting a manual transmission, at least most of the time.

    This "standard", normal delay, hesitation, is being noticed, noticeable, because prior to DBW our engines's torque began to rise the instant we depressed the accelerator. That's very likely also why the pre-04 RX series is enduring a serious number of premature transaxle failures. ASL= more frequent upshifts and downshifts, no DBW, NO delay = an inordinate level of clutch frictional surface wear.

    Insofar as I can tell the new automatic transaxle shift logic recommended by Sierra Research in April of 1999 was adopted for the RX before my 2001 RX300 was built.

    So, let's say that the "standard" delay is on the order of 200 to 500 milliseconds (2/10's to 1/2 a second). That's enough for everyone to take notice, especially those having previously, or still, driving older versions.

    Now, lets assume that a very small number of accelerator pedal assemblies leave the factory with the "at rest", fully released, sensor output voltage on the high side of the acceptable tolerance, above 0.8 volts, as high as 1.1 volts.

    First there is the fact that the factory manuals indicate that the low end of the accelerator pedal's "usable" range is with the sensor's output explicitly at 0.8 volts. It makes perfect sense that the designers would want some slack, tolerance, a "widow" (0.0xx to 0.8 volts) of voltage ranges that represent the idle, fully released, position.

    But now we have some pedals in use by customers wherein the sensor never falls below 0.8005 volts.

    Why would that matter?

    Because the transaxle shift control design would not likely upshift if the pedal were fully released. Fully released would be assumed to mean "I wish to coastdown to a lower speed" and upshifting would not be conducsive to that.

    On the other hand what if you just ease off the accelerator pedal slightly? The logic would be such that the system would assume "I want to just begin cruising along at about this speed", and an upshift would then be very appropriate.

    And now.....

    What if a part of the engine/transaxle ECU firmware, due to those flawed tolerances, just simply couldn't detect the difference between a partial accelerator pedal release and a full release.

    Definitely would have a much greater propensity for upshifting, right?

    And what other aspects might result from the firmware being "confused" (why is the driver on the gas and brakes at the same time?) in this manner?

    Maybe a "watch-dog" timer master firmware reset?

    In effect a engine/transaxle ECU firmware "reboot".

    How many seconds might that take?
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