Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Saab 9-3 Coupe (2002 and earlier)

11113151617

Comments

  • jas28jas28 Posts: 50
    I treat my car well - the dealer's response to the rattles was "it just happens". As for the rest of my problems, the only one which could be even mildly attributed to me was the rear carpet over the spare tire tearing - this was partially due to a 70 lb dog sitting back there (although I'd still argue that Saab shouldn't market their vehicles to dog owners if the vehicles can't handle the weight). This could just as easily have occured with a large mass placed back there on a regular basis.

    It all comes down to a lack of robust engineering on Saabs part.
  • spider6spider6 Posts: 35
    Ok, ok thanks for the answers. I understand on the opinion on Edmund's Townhall is valuable
    stuff when considering purchasing a new car. I also understand people tend to voice dissatisfaction over satisfaction more. So does this mean that the complains on this 9-3 represents a small number of people over all? Also, I noticed that most of the people here who are not happy with their Saabs or 9-3s are owners of Saab from early 90s or 3-4 years ago, if
    I remember correctly the Consumer Reports on reliability during these periods were pretty bad
    for Saab. The 2002 Consumer Report currently on the news stand had 9-3 just below 9-5 in
    terms of reliability and it is actually above average into good territory. Also, Consumer Reports
    did not recommend this car, one of the explanation I read from the magazine was they would
    recommend a car if it has been both in above average in reliability and tested recently. Well
    the last time 9-3 was tested was in early 1999 which is 3 years before so I take it as that
    Consumer Report would have probably recommended this car if it had been tested this year.
    Do you all agree? Any 2001 or 2002 9-3 owners out there? Are you happy or pissed at your
    car purchase? How is resale value on your cars? The Consumer Report has an average rating
    on the 2002 magazine. By the way, I am an owner of two new Japanese cars(before and presently), 95 Altima and 00 Pathfinder. Both had things gone wrong, Altima has it headlights
    replaced the first week I got it due to seal leakage, stereo head unit was replaced but later
    I found out it was just a cheapo nothing wrong with it, fuel sensor gone bad replaced, and
    rear suspension stabilizer bar bent and rubbing against axle that had to be adjusted to get rid
    of squeaks but never completely get rid of the squeak. Finally my 00 Pathfinder had its
    Homelink replaced due to failure at 30K mile, and rear hatch squeaks but fixed completely when
    applied silicone spray on the rubber feet, other than that both cars have been no problems whatsoever. This kind of repair I can tolerate and put up with, are the Saabs much worth???
  • huntzingerhuntzinger Posts: 350
    I treat my car well

    I might not wash & wax it as often as I should, but that shouldn't affect mechanicals.

    Insofar as body flex squeaks, I didn't really have any complaints... except on very cold days, then there was a real creaky groaner for the first ~5 miles. I always thought that it was quite odd that a car from a Scandinavian country (allegedly) would be so "allergic" to the cold.

    OTOH, I didn't appreciate it one bit when my first clutch failed (36K miles) and the service rep suggested "Perhaps you flogged your car?". My response was that the car I had traded in had been flogged to within an inch of its life every day of its life, yet it still had its original clutch at 11 years of age and 100+K miles. That's when he blushed, realizing that he had been caught.

    -hh
  • sbbsbb Posts: 10
    I only have 7000 miles, but have not had a problem EXCEPT a small radio problem, where it had to be replaced.

    It
  • jbeckrjbeckr Posts: 21
    We are about to return our 9-3 at the end of its lease. There is a dent in the left front fender, and we will also pay an excess mileage charge. About 5000 miles over the limit. The estimate for the dent repair was $500. The car is leased from Chase. We don't know if we should get the dent repaired before turning it in, or to take the charge. We are not interested in buying the car, we need one with an outomatic transmission. This car has a 5-speed.

    Should I call Chase to make an appointment? Ask the dealer for help? What do you think?
  • jas28jas28 Posts: 50
    I just got my lease end guide from Saab (not Chase) and their statement was any dent less than an inch long is acceptable.
  • vigorousvigorous Posts: 15
    This one's for you:


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1470000/1470045.stm [note that this is for the 1999 - a two year old car at the time of the test.]


    Consumers probably withholds a recommendation as well based on the fact that a new chassis for the Saab is due in 2003. Why would they recommend a car whose body style is just about to change?


    OTOH, Saab is dropping the hatch from the 9-3 lineup for the first year+, a really dumb move as the Saab is the King of hatchbacks and people are just moving into hatches and mini-station wagons in the smaller cars.


    Resale can't be too bad if, as is the current wisdom, leaseholders are not getting breaks on the Saab Leasing option purchase price for returns. The leasing company is holding firm to the price they set when lessees leased their cars.


    On the squeaks in cold temperatures for 5-10 minutes, this has been diagnosed as a bushing lube problem (2 hrs work max) and is covered under warranty. Some have had squeaks from the rear seating area but stuffing a small towell on the seat catch fixes that one.

  • spider6spider6 Posts: 35
    Hello everyone, just test drove a 9-3 this afternoon. To put into a single thought:
    I don't dislike the car but I didn't get swept off my feet either. I was eager to drive this car since everyone mentioned how true it is that "most people who drives one brought one". I really wanted to like it but here are some of my thoughts after a brief 20 minutes in the
    city and some on the highway. This car is very quite in city speed almost V6 like, at least muted , and I didn't noticed any major wind noises on the highway. Whoever mentioned wind noises must be going 90-100 per hour, then again how many of us are going risk a huge fine
    and safety for that. The steering wheel does not tilt and that kinda got to me, I am used to lower the wheel to get it out of my way, may be I am sitting to low. The car is fairly nimble but it is no BMW or Merc, my cousin owns a Bimmer 5 and it is extremely responsive to steering input and it was only a base model 528. My father's Merc C(new) is extremely sporty very linear and very nimble to say the least. The 9-3 is good but it has a different feel that I am not used to I guess, I didn't really see or feel the benefit of Sport Steering and Sport Chassis(part of Prem Pkg). Finally, I am confused on the feel of the speed in this car, it feels slower that it is going.
    I was doing 45 or 50 but I felt like it needs to pick up some speed while driving in the city. I expected no turbo lag but there was on take off. For example, several times when I came to a complete stop and give it some gas to merge into traffic or highway, this car hesitates just a second or two before some power coming on, it give the car a rather weak feel on take off, once some RPM is build up there is a strong but abrupt surge of power coming on, and it
    left the traffic in rear view mirror. The whole experience has been brand new to me, yes it is quite(unless you step on the gas hard), yes it feels not so "sporty" but heavy at times, and yes it will go like a little rocket when turbo is coming on. I wanted to like the Saab 9-3 but I am rather de-puffed, are all of these feelings part of Saab's quirks to get use to??? So basically, after the test drive it didn't really sold me on it. Are there anyone who is brand new to buying a Saab and how was your first test drive? Sorry if I sounded somewhat negative that's not my intent, trying to be as honest as possible.
  • hppypaulhppypaul Posts: 43
    Spider6

    I knew immediately after my test drive that this was the car for me. I've always had VWs and like a european feel. the 9-3 does take getting used to, but now after 40k( with only some minor stuff) the car just gets more and more fun to drive and faster every day. My SE feels like a rocket with little to no noticeable lag and great handling. I find that it's extremely well balanced and a perfect compromise between all out sport and practicality. Try a BMW in the snow and you'll see what I mean.

    Does the auto in your title mean you only tried and automatic. If so, don't bother. you have to get a stick. no car is any fun without it. good luck with your shopping
  • spider6spider6 Posts: 35
    Hello everyone, just test drove a 9-3 this afternoon. To put into a single thought:
    I don't dislike the car but I didn't get swept off my feet either. I was eager to drive this car since everyone mentioned how true it is that "most people who drives one brought one". I really wanted to like it but here are some of my thoughts after a brief 20 minutes in the
    city and some on the highway. This car is very quite in city speed almost V6 like, at least muted , and I didn't noticed any major wind noises on the highway. Whoever mentioned wind noises must be going 90-100 per hour, then again how many of us are going risk a huge fine
    and safety for that. The steering wheel does not tilt and that kinda got to me, I am used to lower the wheel to get it out of my way, may be I am sitting to low. The car is fairly nimble but it is no BMW or Merc, my cousin owns a Bimmer 5 and it is extremely responsive to steering input and it was only a base model 528. My father's Merc C(new) is extremely sporty very linear and very nimble to say the least. The 9-3 is good but it has a different feel that I am not used to I guess, I didn't really see or feel the benefit of Sport Steering and Sport Chassis(part of Prem Pkg). Finally, I am confused on the feel of the speed in this car, it feels slower that it is going.
    I was doing 45 or 50 but I felt like it needs to pick up some speed while driving in the city. I expected no turbo lag but there was on take off. For example, several times when I came to a complete stop and give it some gas to merge into traffic or highway, this car hesitates just a second or two before some power coming on, it give the car a rather weak feel on take off, once some RPM is build up there is a strong but abrupt surge of power coming on, and it
    left the traffic in rear view mirror. The whole experience has been brand new to me, yes it is quite(unless you step on the gas hard), yes it feels not so "sporty" but heavy at times, and yes it will go like a little rocket when turbo is coming on. I wanted to like the Saab 9-3 but I am rather de-puffed, are all of these feelings part of Saab's quirks to get use to??? So basically, after the test drive it didn't really sold me on it. Are there anyone who is brand new to buying a Saab and how was your first test drive? Sorry if I sounded somewhat negative that's not my intent, trying to be as honest as possible.
  • huntzingerhuntzinger Posts: 350
    [URL]


    Be very, very careful when quoting statistics.


    For example, in the URL provided, CR received nearly 34,000 surveys that canvassed 81 vehicles. If each vehicle was equally represented, that's only 419 surveys per automobile. Given the price range, the odds are very high that the niche and more expensive than average vehicles such as the 9-3 would have had statistically fewer respondents than other, more mainstream, vehicles.


    Nevertheless, if we assume a purely average sample of 419, the report of zero failures yields a Reliability of ~99.4% at a 90% Confidence (MTBF = ~181). This is not really all that far removed from the next few groups on the upper end of the list, and not really significant enough for a well-informed person to get strongly worked up about as supposedly being profound.


    And given that the severity of the repair (and thus, need) was not provided in this report summary, we proverbially don't know if the repair was for a dead battery or a blown engine, so more information is needed before we really try to draw any definitive conclusions.


    Resale can't be too bad if, as is the current wisdom, leaseholders are not getting breaks on the Saab Leasing option purchase price for returns. The leasing company is holding firm to the price they set when lessees leased their cars.


    Not necessarily. For example, the company could be strategically choosing to prop up used car prices.


    FWIW, what I found when I sold my Saab earlier this year is that it is a niche product which increases its marketplace value variability (generally down). If Saabs are "not hot", you can very easily lose a $K's in resale value in a soft market.


    I also found that my local Dealerships use the Galves Wholesale Guide as their cost reference, and this publication was consistently 20-30% lower than the lowest numbers that Kelley's or Edmunds' reports. FWIW, I see that Edmund's is still claiming a 15% higher value than what was in the Galves report from a third of a year ago (Jan 02), and if both are adjusted for condition, options and mileage, the discrepancy increases to 30%. The gap between my expectations for what I thought I could get for my car and what I was actually able to get ended up being significantly greater than what I was expecting.


    -hh

  • vigorousvigorous Posts: 15
    Thanks for the lesson.

    On another challenge to your statistical prowess, why is it that CarTalk rates Saab repurchase rates 6th overall and the second-listed EU car?

    Last time I looked, Porsche was #1 followed by some Japanese beauties, then Saab.

    Surely these are not the kind of figures that lie.
  • spider6spider6 Posts: 35
    Just found out that to insure the Saab 9-3 will cost about $100+ every six months, however when I asked for same insurance for 02 Passat I would save $150 every six months. Has
    anyone else noticed the "high" insurance rate for the Saab? I was very surprised to find the
    cost difference between two cars. I am single with good driving record and age 30.
  • huntzingerhuntzinger Posts: 350
    Short answer is to understand that corrolation does not mean causality.


    Surely these are not the kind of figures that lie.


    Figures don't. Its how their analysis is designed (approach) and then afterwords, how the information is interpreted that can be misleading. Often the case when something is quoted out of context.


    For example, what is 'repurchase'? Is it the rate of repeat buyers, the rate at which lemons are purchased back by the Manufacturer, or something else? You'll need to cite the source so that I can take a look at it. It may have been done well, or poorly. Insufficient information to say at this point.


    FWIW, this link on cartalk has some information on estimated Residual values of 2002 models for 2, 3, 4 and 5 years out. A quick sampling (below) seems to infer that the base 9-3 lags around 10% worse than its obvious European competitors:


    02 Model '04 '05 '06 '07

    Saab 5dr 53% 44% 37% 31%

    MB C230K 61% 52% 45% 39%

    A4 1.8tQ 60% 53% 46% 40%

    BMW 325i 63% 54% 46% 39%


    And BTW, I'm still waiting on you to provide the Saabnet board citation of who it is that considers the Mercedes C230K to be "dull".


    -hh

  • As I mentioned in a previous post, in my own experience with a 900, the insurance rates were higher not so much because of liability issues, but rather because of collision coverage. Saab parts cost a lot, therefore repairs cost a lot, and hence it will cost your insurance company a lot to repair the car if you should wind up in a collision. I'm sure, however, that the actuaries also tack on something extra to liability coverage since the car has a turbo (a turbo being synonymous with high rates of speed, of course).
  • bkswardbksward Posts: 93
    But are the residual values based on MSRP?

    If so, say you have a C230K and a Saab 9-3 that both list for about $28k (with some options on the C230K)... You end up paying about $27.9k for the MB w/C5 package but about $24.5k for the Saab (Cars Direct prices here in San Diego).

    Take the '05 percentages in the listing of 44% and 52%. Residual values of $14.5k for the MB, $12.3k for the Saab... So the total cost of deprecitation would be $1200 less on the Saab...

    A lot of times people cite the dirt-cheap resale values of cars as something against it but fail to account for the fact that the car sells for less than MSRP.
  • huntzingerhuntzinger Posts: 350
    ...are the residual values based on MSRP?

    It sounds like a reasonable assumption, but the source needs to be checked to see if it explains their basis of evaluation (FWIW, I haven't looked).

    Take the '05 percentages in the listing of 44% and 52%. Residual values of $14.5k for the MB, $12.3k for the Saab... So the total cost of depreciation would be $1200 less on the Saab...

    I think you tripped up slightly on your math. For the Saab, 44% of $24.5K is $10.8K, not $12.3K.

    $24.5K minus $10.8K means we've lost $13.7K. For the MB, 52% of $28K is $14.6K, and a loss of $13.4K. So the MB comes out slightly ahead.

    A lot of times people cite the dirt-cheap resale values of cars as something against it but fail to account for the fact that the car sells for less than MSRP.

    Perhaps its utility is to serve as a warning sign that a buyer should expect a steep discount from the listed MSRP?

    -hh
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,468
    I lease my Saab through Saab credit, but my Dad leases his 2001 Infiniti QX4 through Chase. I remember when we picked my dad's car up, there was a clause in the Chase lease that stated that Chase will cover up to $1500 in damages for needed repairs to the vehicle at lease end. The dealer cited that's one of the reasons they use chase as opposed to Nissan as their leasing company.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,468
    I'm going to pick up my 2001 Honda Prelude Type SH on Saturday. The Prelude will eventually replace my 2000 Saab 9-3 either when the lease is up in December or I hit the magical 36,000 mile mark (At which point my Saab will sit in the driveway until December).

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • vigorousvigorous Posts: 15
    Well, you took a grilling on the MSRP vs resid. Frankly, I don't care about resids because I bought the (discounted) Saab 9-3 after thorough research - as a keeper and not as a trader.

    This is my second Saab. I will be buying more of them, consistent with CarTalk's brand loyalty analysis which ranks Saab 2nd among EU cars.

    The other statistic I failed to mention was Saab's supremacy in the "purchase after test drive" statistic, where Saab also leads. Since Saab uses this in advertising, then I would assume Ford or Daimler would jump all over GM were the information incorrect or stated in a misleading fashion.

    As well, I'm not going to bother citing who, at Saabnet.com, said what about the Merc. The topic came up - it was discussed - some people with experience driving that Merc weighed in - and the Saab owners left the topic quite some time ago concluding that the Merc, although a fine car, was just plain dull. Considerable discussion was given the lowball price/sales scheme Merc aimed directly at recent grads.

    Saabnet.com has a great search engine. If you want, you can look it up for all the time it takes. I don't accept the onus you put on me to look stuff up for you online. My research is done.

    Saabers have the highest internet use rate of any vehicle owners and we know our way around chat protocols too. Often, Merc (and many other car type) owners come by weekly looking for a quality ownerboard like we have there.

    I have presented two (2) surveys. Each of which is some proof that Saab is a demonstrably exceptional car. If you want to quibble, quibble with someone else.

    And for those owners switching off Saab for some other car like Prelude; goodbye and happy motoring. Chances are, you don't live close to the mountains like I do. Chances are, you don't care if your car fails to breath properly (like a Saab Turbo does) at high altitude. See you at Pike's Peak or like altitudes maybe.

    BTW: for the other shopper who thought Saab insurance was higher, the other Detroit car we compared when making a decision bore a higher insurance rate than the Saab. I suggest if it comes down to the fine points like that one, each prospective acquirer do his/her own insuance comparison.

    Saab is General Motors' only world car. Sales are way up over last year. The 9-5 has distinguished itself by walking away with the JD Power "best" in category.

    The latest info is, since the 9-3 is at the end of the model run and no more are being made, it is becoming very difficult to find a 9-3 with a standard shifter and the hatch is being dropped for a time.

    I also bought the Saab because I have a dog. Another statistic you may wish to consider is a higher percentage of Saabers have dogs than any other kind of car.

    I lead a healthy, active, family lifestyle and I need a car that can, inter alia, pack a wheelbarrow in the boot while closing the trunk and stow 9 garbage bags full of uncompacted leaves for the trip to the compost gathering area in our city. I have a teenager who drives this car. I want my kids protected in a collision. Check out the crash tests - the EU or Aussie crash tests please - not the lower standard US crash tests.

    Arf! Arf! 140 miles per hour+ top end (ungoverned) if you want and one of the fastest-accelerating cars from a running 30mph through 70mph reasonable money can buy.
  • smu1976smu1976 Posts: 110
    Forbes April 29th issue, page 58

    Sticker price for a 9-3 $27,995.00
    Invoice price $26,339.00

    Holdback $859.00

    Factory to Dealer Cash $4000.00

    Dealer Cost $21,480

    These numbers make sense, for some of the post paying in the 24-25K range are still giving the dealer 2000-3500 profit on a unit.
    Of course the dealers never tell the consumer about the factory to dealer incentives. Saab is giving the Dealers a big plus on this unit now, in about 4-5 months when the new 9-3 starts popping up, thats when the customer will get some good breaks.
  • spider6spider6 Posts: 35
    Just to your price doesn't include $625 shipping charge, any package(options $1900 up to $2400+), automatic transmission $1200 ,$475 metallic paint, or any dealer fees...
    otherwise the number is correct but only to the extend of base only. I think it would be
    next to impossible for anyone to walk into a luxury label car dealer to find a Saab with no option. $24K-$25K is probably more like it with options after dealer heavy discount.
  • bkswardbksward Posts: 93
    Take the '05 percentages in the listing of 44% and 52%. Residual values of $14.5k for the MB, $12.3k for the Saab... So the total cost of depreciation would be $1200 less on the Saab...

    I think you tripped up slightly on your math. For the Saab, 44% of $24.5K is $10.8K, not $12.3K.

    $24.5K minus $10.8K means we've lost $13.7K. For the MB, 52% of $28K is $14.6K, and a loss of $13.4K. So the MB comes out slightly ahead.


    Nope, read my post again. 44% of $28k is $12.3... The $24.5k is the selling price on Cars Direct not MSRP. Therefore, my math is correct if the residuals are are based on MSRP...

    -Brian
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,468
    "And for those owners switching off Saab for some other car like Prelude; goodbye and happy motoring. Chances are, you don't live close to the mountains like I do. Chances are, you don't care if your car fails to breath properly (like a Saab Turbo does) at high altitude. See you at Pike's Peak or like altitudes maybe."

    I can't help but take that remark as somewhat of a personal attack. If you've followed this board, you'll see that I have had nothing but positive things to say about my Saab. I did buy my Saab because of the test drive I went on. I was also treated respectfully by the salesman. I love the versatility of the hatchback. The exhaust has a great note under hard acceleration. I love how the Turbo is so well engineered into the engine that it produces pretty much zero lag. My Base 9-3 never runs out of breath and always seems to be able to go faster. It is a rock solid highway cruiser. The seats are comfortable. The leather is very high quality. The steering is well weighted and communicative. The car handles well (except those damn stock tires pitch and howl way before the limits of the chassis). The heated seats are great. The AC Blows real cold and the car heats up relatively quick in the winter.

    When I bought my Saab, I needed a FWD (or AWD) car with a slushbox. I was trying (In late 1999) to decide between a Passat V6 or Accord EX-V6. I saw the nationally advertised lease deal for the Base 9-3s at the time and went for a test drive. It was a much better car to drive than the other 2, it was more expensive, and much cheaper to lease.

    I'm 26, live in New York City (read: not near the mountains like yourself) and don't need a 4 door car, so I opted to go for a Prelude which has been a car that I've wanted to own ever since 1992.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • vigorousvigorous Posts: 15
    No worries. You have indeed spoken highly of your experience with the 9-3 and I'm glad for that. Edmunds too often acts as a trash board so I'm fighting back. If I sound surly, that's why. No personal offence intended.

    By the time you tire of the Prelude, wich is a spiffy, reputedly reliable car, the 9X or the 9-3X may be just what your needs then say you should have and you will return to Saab.

    These new 9s are exciting concept cars and Saab's announced five new entries in the ensuing five years should stir the autowriters, who on the whole have not been kind to the 900s or the 9-3s.

    I'm not a great fan of _ANY_ SUVs (except for large family or industrial use) so Saab can skip that entry as far as I'm concerned.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,468
    I actually plan to keep the Prelude until I need another can and then keep it as a 3rd car. I'll definitely consider whatever the replacement is of the 9-3. I'm not a Saab Die Hard Fan, I haven't found a car to become brand loyal to. I'd definitely consider the 9-5 Wagon (Hopefully an Aero with a Stick) when the time comes that I need a Wagon. I'd rather have a sport Wagon than a minivan or SUV. No offense taken. Way too often people use the Edmunds boards for bashing. In the case of Jas28 & Huntzinger...they both have legitimate beefs with their respective Saabs.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • huntzingerhuntzinger Posts: 350
    Saabnet.com has a great search engine. If you want, you can look it up for all the time it takes.

    Already done. Saabnet does not substantiate your claim. Now what?

    I don't accept the onus you put on me to look stuff up for you online.

    In other words, you're suggesting I do my homework first. I don't want to be rude and confrontational, but had you followed your own advice, you would have found that as I had mentioned, I had already done these archive searches posted the results in direct response to your post on the "9-3 vs. C230" ... a week ago.

    Now to resolve the actual question instead of arguing, what you said isn't archived on Saabnet. As such, could it be that you had mis-recalled the source and that it was something other than Saabnet?

    ------------

    Frankly, I don't care about resids because I bought the (discounted) Saab 9-3 after thorough research - as a keeper and not as a trader.

    That was my original intent too. Things change.

    -hh
  • huntzingerhuntzinger Posts: 350
    Nope, read my post again. 44% of $28k is $12.3... The $24.5k is the selling price on Cars Direct not MSRP.

    Ah, you're right - I missed your part stating that the Saab's MSRP was also $28K. Sorry about that.

    Therefore, my math is correct if the residuals are are based on MSRP...

    Agreed. Now the only question is how the source actually did _their_ math! :-)

    -hh
  • huntzingerhuntzinger Posts: 350
    I'm 26, live in New York City (read: not near the mountains like yourself)

    Oh, come on now! Its only a 40 hour drive out to Powder Creek Pass (the closest 8,000+ mt pass in the USA from where you live).

    -Hugh
  • vigorousvigorous Posts: 15
    ..hunter......and to pick up on something you said about there not being any data on the C230
    at Saabnet tending to confirm my one-word
    description - dull -, I went to the Saabnet
    board and entered "C230".

    There at least a dozen posts discussing this car.

    The most amusing one I found compared it to
    a Cimarron.

    Anyway, it isn't a hatch so it's out of order
    to discuss it here.
This discussion has been closed.