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Lexus LS 460/LS 460L: First Drives

landilandi Posts: 44
edited March 19 in Lexus
Is the SWB a good deal or the LWB is a rip-off? I compared the price and features of the two fully loaded versions. The following is the extra equipment the $85,947loaded LWB had over the $68,482 loaded SWB:
Pre-Collision and Dynamic Cruise $2,850
Advanced Parking System $700
Air Suspension and VGRS $2,120
Lexus Link $900
Upgraded Leather and headliner (not individually priced)
Rear Seat Upgrade $1,625
If you total all these extra features, you get $8,200 but the price difference between the two cars is $17,500. So for $9,300 I get extra leg room and upgraded leather. Am I missing something or did Lexus mess up the pricing?
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Comments

  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,675
    Your doing something wrong in your calculations if you have a $17K price differential. A fully loaded SWB car that is comparable to a fully loaded LWB car (excluding the $11K executive 4 seat pckge) will run you to near $77K, not $68K. You need to add that $8200 to the $68,482 to get the difference. The same $10K price difference at the base level continues to exist. In fact it may actually become a tad less, maybe that $9300 you've shown. Go to Edmunds and configure the cars rather than Lexus.com. The latter doesn't have all the features yet or at least it didn't last night when I checked. I haven't checked all that closely on standard features or nit for nit option packages so there is also a possibility that the LWB car has something not available or included on the SWB car.

    In the long run the value of the choice you make will matter more if you buy than if you lease - IMO. I think over time you will see Lexus make more and more LWB cars and less and less SWB cars. The market will move on you in the future. So if you buy, than the chance is greater that the LWB LS car will hold it's value as a percentage of MSRP at a higher percentage rate than a SWB car. If you lease then the risk is on Lexus or the bank so you don't care. If you are leasing you'll only pay about 40% of that $9300-10,000 difference over three years.

    Beyond all that it's a matter of taste. The LWB car will ride better and have the added space and a higher luxury feel than a SWB car. The car also looks better to my eyes in LWB trim.

    BTW - I would say the SWB car fully loaded is a great deal vs the expiring LS430 ultra. Add pre collision to that ultra and your near $75K vs $77K for this very updated car with 102 more horses + all the other goodies that it has over the LS430. The big difference is in reality though as that car would have been discounted a lot in the past two years and this one will not be discounted at all at first and then at a lot lower levels in the future.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,675
    How about renaming the other 2007 LS board as 2007 pre-release date discussuion and this one as just the 2007 LS 460 and 460L board now that the car is finally here. The board that is the current LS board probably should be renamed 2001-2006 LS so that whoever has that car can discuss it without dealing with the remodelled car. I think the names as they are now will be confusing to new folks and people will post all over the place rather than on one pre-defined board for the 2007 car. As this 2007 car goes to market this week there'll be lots of discussions and possibly new posters on it once people start to drive and experience the car.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,830
    OK - thanks for the info. I've re-titled existing discussions to make more sense. Feel free to start new '07 LS-related discussions that you think might be interesting!

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  • landilandi Posts: 44
    You are right, the Edmond.com pricing for the $68,500 car on the Lexus site is about $3,500 more. Why do you think the Lexus site is not correct? Also in my example, I shouldn’t have called the $68,500 SWB loaded but in my zip code it is as high as I could go on the Lexus site. My guess is the lease payment on the $86,000 car would be about $1,250 and for the $68,500 car would be about $1,000 so you are right might as well get the LWB. But how much more is the 600 at about $100,000 the lease payment would be about $1,450. I love leasing it makes poor guys look like rich guys! ;)
  • barrynsbarryns Posts: 13
    Lexus dealer called me today to tell me had had two cars that had just come off the truck. Were still not detailed and cleaned up but available to look at. Went out there and he had 460 and 460L both fully loaded except for the executive package. Needless to say they were very nice. But the reason I wrote this note was to give some hope that cars would be available. He told me he had 15 deposits and no definate known cars coming in except those that had been ordered for specfic customers. However these two were available because they didn't match the color combinations ordered. He said others could still come in that are not accounted for. Also felt a special order could be filled in 6-8 weeks. Unveiling at this shop will be on the 27th after which I'll be able to sign out the car and drive it.
  • barrynsbarryns Posts: 13
    I spent hours doing a direct comparison with the Lexus site and Edmunds. Even though they present the information differently, the prices came out exactly the same.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,675
    Barry - The only option packages on Lexus.com when you build the car are two lux package variants. I hope they fix that to include all the option choices soon as otherwise you need to go to the price and options tab and build the car manually on paper. Given the build site then links to payment estimator the whole process is so much better automated, People will be going there instead of the price and options tab and will miss all of the variations Lexus now allows. The payment estimator tab is good but it tends to be high vs prices I've gotten - even if you put in an estimated down payment to compensate for a discount you think you can negotiate.

    Landi - If I were buying the LS460L I'd configure the car with pre collison, luxury, ML, air sus, lux rear , and the park assist sensors for $84,120. My guess is that's a $1350-1375 lease (zero down) now and about $100-125 cheaper 7-8 months from now. The other way I'd go is the touring package with ML, pre collision, and the park assist sensors and that's $80,580. Why you can't get rear lux with that is beyond me. I'd like the rear shades as I'd likely opt for a rear headrest DVD system for $1600 or so locally. Since Lexus doesn't change headrests you can put that DVD system in your next leased LS if you stay loyal. My guess on that car is $1250-1275 now and possibly $50-75 cheaper later as I have a feeling this car will stay at or vey close to MSRP for a long time to come. If you option out an LS460 to $72-73K my guess is you are at $1125 or so now and $1050 or so later. My thought is that Lexus and financial institutions will residualize the LWB car at better rates than the SWB car. Just a feeling.

    A fully optioned LS460L reaches $97K wuth the executive class limo package. But that's a special order car. At my dealership there are already a number of them spoken for though - so people aren't balking at mid 90K prices. I'd have to say that the LS600HL will likely top out in the $112K range with that option included and probably starts out at that $90K pricetag we were thinking earlier.

    Last issue is the $2850 pre-collision option. Will Lexus tend to ship cars pretty much with it or without it. I'd think that with the investment they put into it they'll tend to bring more cars with it than without it to dealer lots - particularly on LWB models. I'm also quite surprised that the self parking feature is only an added $700. So it may be more standardized into shipped cars also.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,271
    Yes Len. I was very much surprised that what seems to be a rather sophisticated option is only $700.

    By the way, it seems to me like this will now be the most popular board to discuss the new LS.
  • barrynsbarryns Posts: 13
    I think it is a mistake to split apart the forums related to the 2007 LS460 Series. I think that all those that are here are interested in any subject related including style, drive, defects, recalls, problems, How to's, etc. etc. The value of any one forum will decrease significantly. I doubt that anybody is here only to focus on one subect such as first drive, etc. That is too limited. In order to see what is going on with this car, everybody is going to have to jump from forum to forum to get all the information. And what about the posts that are put on the wrong forum. With such limited breadth of subject, the moderators will be kept increasingly busy switching posts from one forumn to another
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,675
    I also think there should be just one ongoing forum or maybe two if there's a need to keep the LS600 hybrid discussion apart. I was wondering what happened to the posts of landi and I the other day and then saw that new board created with the posts moved. I can see closure of the old 2007 LS board as a read only board but only because it was filled with speculation about prices and other things prior to release info and now we are in real time mode with the release info and the car arriving in dealer lots. That type of move differentiates better the pre release and post release LS news and opinions for new readers. But it's not a necessity.
  • barrynsbarryns Posts: 13
    Not a problem having too much information on the forum. Posts will always be current. Won't be any new posts on price speculation so subject will go away by itself. Users will read and search out what interests them.

    Just to reiterate, I think there should be one forum for the 2007- ? 460 until the model is updated. Concur that the LS 600H might need a separate forum as a lot of the info will not be useable by the 460 group.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,830
    This conversation has been ongoing in the Forums Software discussion. Instead of spreading it out, please take any organizational questions there. Thanks!

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  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,271
    I had the same complaints yesterday but I was told it was no-no.
  • Well any new info? The TV teaser ads are airing now...
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,675
    Well the two things left to figure out are when AWD comes available and what that LS600HL will price at. I'm on it. Unfortunately I'm travelling on business and am missing the debut at my dealership this week.
  • Here's an apples-to-apples (well, almost) comparison between the SWB and LWB from the Lexus site:

    SWB base $61000
    Comfort Plus pkg $3620
    Nav system/ML audio pkg $5645
    Power door & trunk closers $395
    TOTAL $70660

    LWB base $71000
    ML audio $2530
    Luxury pkg $2780
    TOTAL $76310

    These two configurations are as close to the same car as you can get. The $5650 difference buys you 4.8 inches plus premium interior leather and headliner.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Of course, ALL the LS models can always be discussed on the HELM forum, and they can be compared to other vehicles as well. ;)

    TagMan
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,271
    Wouldn't you also get a better overall ride with the LWB as well?
  • "Wouldn't you also get a better overall ride with the LWB as well?"

    If you were to drive the cars one right after the other on certain road conditions you may be able to discern a slight ride difference. But I doubt it will be the main reason people will buy one over a SWB, just as the 1 MPG better fuel rating will not chase many people from the LWB to the SWB.

    We buy with our heart, but we justify with our head.
  • ..."We buy with our heart, but we justify with our head."

    and in that order.
  • barrynsbarryns Posts: 13
    What's not to like about driving in a brand new car with less than 10 miles. I put about 50 miles on a Mercury Metallic LS460L this afternoon. I'm not a professional evaluator but The car was extremely quiet, very responsive pickup. It seemed to be very stable on the road and took curves without difficulty or the feeling that I had to slow down. Definately much better than a prevous 2005 LS 430 I owned for short period of time. On the straightaway I was up to 90 for a short distance on a fairly busy highway but best I can say is that I didn't know I was going over 60. The Voice response system is very accurate compared to my current vehicle which understands me less than some of my relatives. The Brake Hold switch is a nice feature and prevents the car from creeping forward without having to keep foot on the brake. My aren't we getting lazy. I suppose it also would hold the car from going backwards on Lombard street in SF.......I'll wait for somebody else to try that. I guess I could go on and on.....but did end up putting a deposit on the car which will be available after the 'champagne inaugral'...Hope the car makes it thru the party.
  • pearlpearl Posts: 336
    Several people were waiting so I only spent about 20 minutes in the car, with a lot of traffic around, so couldn't really put it through its paces. Overall, my positive comments are similar to those reported by others: very quiet, turbine smooth, and reasonable handling (but not great). Steering felt a little light to me, but turning circle was good. Brakes were OK, not grabby, but did not seem overly "powerful". OK, here are a few negatives, or at least areas that this drive and examination brought to my attention: trunk - small for a car this size (seemingly no larger than my BMW 528)and this was the SWB without any rear A/C intrusions; back seat room - same comment as for the trunk; and, driver's side footwell room. I felt that the left side encroached on the driver's foot area, moreso than I would have expected for such a large car. Also, the left vertical side of the footwell is carpeted, protrudes into the foot area and seems guaranteed to get soiled quickly. None of these are show stoppers, and make no mistake, this is a nice car; however, the lack of overall room surprised me for such a big car.
  • jd14jd14 Posts: 128
    The legroom is supposed to be 1.8 inches more in the rear than on the previous LS. But since you have actually sat in the back, how would you say it compares to the 430 in terms of leg space? Also, since you seem concerned about the space in the car, you should probably opt for a LWB, if the extra $$$ isn't a problem.
  • pearlpearl Posts: 336
    I think the SWB has enough room - leg, head, hip, front, back, etc - just not as much as I expected. The trunk definitely is small for a car this size, no other way to describe it. I looked at a Merc E class right after this and its trunk was noticeably bigger - and has an optional fold down rear seat. My biggest "complaint" was the relatively small driver's side footwell - I doubt that the LWB is any different. It is not bad, but less than even my much smaller 528. Many won't care, but some won't buy it because of this, I predict. My 528 only has 153K on the clock, so I will keep it for awhile yet.
  • I drove both the LWB and the SWB on Friday, and sat in all the seats. I'm average height (5'8") and even in the SWB my knees were six inches from the back of the front seat, which was adjusted to accommodate a driver of my height. In the LWB, my knees were, well, 10.8" from the back of the front seat. (Not that I'll spend any time in my back seat anyway, but it's nice to know even tall passengers will be comfortable.) I've driven midsize MBs since 1981, and the SWB has much more legroom than any car I've ever owned. The LWB is downright cavernous, at least from my POV. Sure, if you're 6'6" and will be driven by a tall chauffeur, then by all means spring for the L. Keep in mind that the extra rear legroom also translates into extra long rear doors, which will require extra care exiting the back seat in parking lots and tight garages - something to think about if you have kids or clods for passengers. (BTW, the power door closers are really trick - the ultimate luxury you don't need but once you use them you wonder how you got along without them...)
  • jd14jd14 Posts: 128
    Much appreciated. I'm glad to know that you had tons of room to spare in both cars. However, do you think that it would still be overly roomy for someone at 6'5''? In other words, would someone over 6'3'' be able to recline a rear seat fully and still have another person at 6'3'' sit in front of them?
  • I honestly don't think that two six-plus footers would be cramped sitting one in front of the other in the SWB - certainly, if I was that tall and knew I had to have a tall person sitting behind me a lot, I would consider the L. Or if I was a realtor and did a lot of chauffeuring, the L would definitely be my choice. However, if you are considering all options and you have a short front passenger, put your occasional tall guy (or girl) in the #4 spot where the front seat will be pulled up a bit. I'm going to our local unveiling tomorrow night (Tuesday) and will see if I can get some tall people to test the room situation.

    In the end, it's your $5650, so you'll have to decide whether your back seat passengers are worth it ;-)
  • pearlpearl Posts: 336
    My issue is NOT with overall leg room. While I think that the LS460 SWB has less room than most people would think by looking at its overall size, I was able to find a comfortable driving position and then get into the back seat with enough room (I am 6'0"). It is not cavernous, but adequate - just a little surprising that it is not larger for such a big car. My main concern was the relatively small driver's footwell area. Again, it is not a huge issue, but was instantly noticeable for me (and my car is a 97 BMW 528 - a much smaller car but with a much better room to move my feet around - a useful feature on a long drive. I am glad that you had plenty of room, but as others have noted, they did not. Not everyone wants, or can, buy the L model, and it seems ridiculous to spend close to 70K and not have enough interior room when you can buy any number of econoboxes that do.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,675
    I think everyone who thinks of the 460L as just a few inches of rear seat space is missing the point of what that car is all about. It's really the driving force of this new LS design and is the "made to perfection" car. The SWB was made to fit that cars engineering and to hold onto the existing customer base and lower prices. The L was made for conquest sales and holding customers that Lexus would/could have lost.

    Watch the reviews - they will be a lot stronger for the LS460L than for the LS460. The ones I've read to date are already indicative of that. I'd expect that everyone that reviews this car will prefer the LS460L, and some by miles over the LS460. Over time the LS460L will become the car that becomes dominant for Lexus in the category.

    I'm anxious to drive both cars later this week.

    BTW - the LS430 had plenty of space for 6 foot plus folks in the rear and I drive with my seat all the way back. I'm a hair under 6' and have plenty of space with the seat pushed fully back. I'd have a hard time believing Lexus would make the LS460 SWB model cramped when they've gone out of their way to maximize interior space on past models.
  • I believe the front seat dimensions for the LS460 and the LS 460L are identical. BTW, the LS 460 WB is 1.7" longer than the LS 430. I assume that extra length goes in the back seat leg room, which is tight for my family in the LS 430.
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