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What is this thing worth?

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  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,676
    I occasionally see one of those on the road. They are tiny. They seemed pretty normal-sized back in the day, but now a Civc dwarfs it in every dimension.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,672
    Checking Ebay, the guys have it - about $2,000 max, if that. The real interest seems to be in the big wheel 4x4s.
  • xsaoxsao Posts: 2
    thanks for the replies guys, Im just going to keep this, and mod it up. Its not worth me selling it for 2000, this truck will last me a long time....

    thanks!
  • fintailfintail Posts: 34,191
    That's a good way to look at it, it is a very useful vehicle. It'll never be worth a fortune, but someday it will be kind of a 'special interest' car - give it another 10-20 years.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,317
    The February 25 issue of BARRON'S has an article entitled "4,000-Pound Weaklings", which suggests that "after years of boom, collectible-car prices are softening...No segment looks more vulnerable than baby boomers' beloved muscle cars."

    This isn't surprising, since prices of many asset classes have been declining. The exceptions are oil, precious metals and grains, but not classic cars.
  • burdawgburdawg Posts: 1,524
    It's the same for all big ticket non-essential items. At the recent boat show in LA, many of the vendors had 0 sales for the entire event, especially the high end custom builders.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,672
    Just like Florida condos...he's another piece from the Barron's article, about the gold standard in muscle cars, the Hemi 'Cuda:

    "For most of these big-engine Detroit machines from the 1960s and early 1970s, prices have fallen by 10% to 15% over the past two years, but for some, the damage has been far worse A 1971 Plymouth Barracuda, with a hemi engine, fetched $396,000 -- impressive, but about half of what one sold for in 2006."
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 30,594
    The bigger the bubble, the more damage done, when it pops...

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  • fintailfintail Posts: 34,191
    Serves the speculators right
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,718
    Well people woke up and finally said "Gee, it's a PLYMOUTH".

    Not like we are talking about a very rare Bentley Speed Six here.

    The rare old precious stuff that is eligible for historic events will maintain good value I think, but anything "modern", with rare exception, is going to take further hits for a while at least.

    It's still all about supply and demand, once you wipe out the speculators.

    I could see some cars never going down in value, because there will always be more people who want them then there are cars, no matter how bad the economy.

    Keep in mind that some people have so much money that the world could be besieged by plague, aliens, war and locusts and they'll still be all right. Then they will have everything and we will have nothing and then we'll have to eat them and start all over again. :P

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  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,108
    to the values of lesser cars that in recent years saw their values go up in value, as sort of a halo effect from their more desirable counterparts? For example, while the prices of '68-70 Mopar B-bodies with the Hemi and the 440-6 pack and such went through the roof, it also seemed like every clapped out 6-cyl Belevedere or Coronet 440 also went up, I guess partly with the hopes that someone might buy it to make a clone out of it.

    And then there were people who would have loved to have had a Hemi or 440 6-pack, but ended up settling for something more mundane. I'd imagine that as prices fall, the cars that rode on the coattails of these greats will end up falling even further.

    I wonder if there will be some really good deals as the Carlisle PA swap meets this year?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,718
    There's always a lag in a falling market because sellers don't want to face the facts as quickly as buyers who see what's happening.

    Sellers think it'll blow over and buyers hold out for even more of a drop---so it's a question of who blinks first.

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  • ljgbjgljgbjg Posts: 374
    Anyone have any idea about the rarity and worth of the following, or how I might find it out?

    All stock, all matching numbers
    1968 Camaro Convertible
    SS/RS
    TH400
    L34 396/350 HP
    12 bolt Posi.
    Tic Toc Tach
    Console Gauges
    AM Radio
    Remote controlled rear view mirrors
    Power steering/front disc brakes
    Tinted windshield
    Speed reminder - buzzes when you hit the pre set speed
    Butternut Yellow/black
    14" Rallye Wheels/7.75 x 14 red wall tires
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,718
    The value will fluctuate widely depending on condition and on the degree of solid documentation that comes with the car. So first you'd have to tell us the car's "rating" (#1 being stunning show car trailered to all events, better than new, # a very VERY sharp local show quality car that might be driven on rare occasion, #2 a clean driver, #4, a decent car with a few needs that are obvious, #5 is rough but complete, not rusted or stripped, #6 a junker.

    Then we'd need to know documentation---As for documentation, the best things are a) build sheet b)protect-o-plate c) dealer window sticker. Without those you can never assign the highest values to a car.

    Also, the VIN tags have to have no suspicion whatsoever about them and all the parts should date-code correctly for top dollar cars.

    But if you want ballpark #s, you have to at least assess the car's overall condition. Without documents, the authenticity is always in doubt of course.

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  • ljgbjgljgbjg Posts: 374
    I have the build sheet - found it under the front seat - bought the car used in April 1969 from Bresee Chevrolet, Syracuse, NY with 9800 miles on it - salesman's wife's car. I am the second owner. It is, I would say, #2/#3 local show quality/clean driver with 87,000 miles on it, although I have never shown it. Have kept it garaged and regularly maintained. Never in an accident. The usual Chevy repairs for a 1968 Camaro - new water pump, new alternator, new motor mounts with cable retainers, original paint always kept waxed and cleaned. All repairs done at dealer. Did regular maintenance myself - brake pads, oil changes, etc. No rust - I know - upstate NY? Always power washed the undercarriage and did not drive it in snow. Original convertible top and plastic rear window have been replaced.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,718
    Well it's always a wild guess without seeing the car, since how it looks is so vitally important, but I'd say ballpark maybe $45,000--$50,000.

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  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,881
    I didn't know they had to cable down the 396 engines?

    This soinds like one NICE car and it's certainly the right color too!
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Posts: 374
    Began getting leaks in the bottom of the upper radiator hose. Could not figure out why. The alternator fan was below it by about 3-4". Called the dealer - said it sounded like a broken engine mount - out it in gear and gently step on the gas with the brake on. OK - the engine practically leapt out of the engine compartment!

    Yeah, those Camaros were recalled for bad engine mounts and the "solution" was to install cables around the existing mounts - including the new one I had installed.
    Some cars had had the throttle cable stick open and the cars crash - thus the recall.

    It is a very nice car - has had its share of annoyances (cooling system and transmission) and today's cars are far superior in engineering, suspension, steering, etc. Despite the fact that Toyota Camry V6s are equal to it in acceleration, there is still something about that old big block roar, that Quadrajet sucking in through its secondaries, and the neck snapping downshifting of the TH that no Camry can ever duplicate. Plus its being a convertible and the wind whipping through the hair. The car stickered for $4451 in 1968. I paid $2700 for it in April 1969 with 9800 miles on it. Drove it through law school and then later on it became a weekend car only. Glad I kept it! I think it is pretty rare - SS/RS combo, TH400, 350HP engine, convertible, and documented second owner.
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Posts: 374
    I probably need to have it professionally appraised for insurance purposes and otherwise. I see rebuilds, ss clones, non-number matching big block convertibles going for the figure you mention. Nickey Chevrolet has a 1969 L78 4 speed SS with factory AM/FM Stereo Multiplex, but no RS and no rallye wheels for $200,000 with build sheet. Like I said - there are lots of clones out there with 396 engines, but not with 12 bolt posi., or not longer pure stock, so the cars never had the 396 originally. All 396 engined cars with posi came with 12 bolt rear axles. True 396 Super Sports had special hoods with the "vents" sectioned into 8 squares - 327 engined SS cars came with simple ribbed "vents".
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,718
    the numbers I gave you are pretty good. People can ask whatever they want---that's not the market value. Remember there is a BIG difference in price between a #3 car and a nut and bolt rotisserie restoration using all NOS parts. Also an L78 and a 4-speed and a 1969 model year all bring more money than your car, so there's an additional 30% add-on right there for those three things. Nickey Chevrolet has a constitutional right to ask double the car's value if they wish.

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  • texasestexases Posts: 5,672
    Has the market begun to soften on these, or is it in that 'good options' world of high prices?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,718
    A documented car that has low production numbers and good options will always at least retain value in this flat market (it may even drop in value if it was really overheated in price); but the clones and NOM cars and salvage cars and questionable vehicles will take a beating...are taking a beating. Also street rods, etc. are getting bloodied.

    Many of these cars are now going overseas in large numbers, as Europeans are bargain shopping and don't much care about authenticity, or don't care as much.

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  • ljgbjgljgbjg Posts: 374
    Oh - I clearly recognize that a 1969 L78 HI-Perf 4 speed SS with build sheet and the other options would be "worth" more to someone looking for a prime example of 1960's Camaro Hi Performance than my TH400 street cruiser. Other than the Yenko 427s and the Nickey 427s and the COPO Camaros, that is the zenith of Camaro big block performance - AND in a convertible to boot. As they say, everything is for sale for the right price. The question is - what is the right price, and that may very from one to another in the free market. While some of these reproductions and clones may be immaculate, they are still not original factory cars, and in that sense. to my way of thinking, almost a kit car. It has seemed to me that cars with pedigrees are accorded some kind of premium in the market place. I suspect my car is "worth" in the $50-75,000 range - to the right person. ?Does not really matter other than for insurance - I am not selling! I proposed to my wife in that car, graduated law school, won pure stock E class drag races against 440 GTXs, 340 Dusters, other 396 Camaros in "grudge" matches and have just simply had a blast with it. Too many memories on top of its rarity. Would love to know the production numbers though - 1968 Camaro Convertibles with SS/RS, 396/350, TH400, let alone the color. Would any one know where to find them? I saw one other car like it about 4 years ago on ebay for $35,000. It was LOADED - including those fiber optic light things on the front fenders. Forgot to mention that mine also has the bumble bee stripe. Thanks for the responses and the advice.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 34,191
    You should post some pics of it here, sounds like a lovely old beast.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,718
    You can find production numbers for # of convertibles, # of L34s, # of RSs, # of TH400s, but you won't find numbers for each possible combination. Most people use a form of estimation to arrive at an accurate guess.

    For instance, you know that they made 16,927 V8 convertibles, and you know that they made 167, 251 V8 coupes. So you have roughly a 1 to 10 ratio of convertibles to coupes.

    Then you know that they made 2, 579 L34 SSs, so you could guessimate that about 10% of those were convertibles.

    RSs they made tons of, so no help there (although you'll see claims of "knowing"). One could presume that not all convertible SS were RS. I'd guess maybe 1/4th of them were.

    As for the TH400 M40, they made 5,466 of those and over 46,000 4-speeds. Here's a case of where rarity works against you---the 4 speeds, though more common, are worth more than the TH400. So I guess you could estimate total # of Camaros built and divide by 5, 466 and then extrapolate rarity of your car from these ratios.

    As for color, I don' think there are any records on # of cars done in each color.

    You have to be careful about "rarity of options". Sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't matter at all.

    Supply and demand dictates market, not rarity of options by themselves.

    There are tons of good books and lots of internet info on production numbers. With some effort you could probably find out a great deal about your car.

    As for value, here again, one has to see the car to really know. Personally I can't see a #3 car selling for $75K.

    The appraiser doesn't work on one sale one time. The appraiser's job is to find the real market, and discount the "steals" who got one cheap from the widow, and the drunks who might have overbid at Barrett Jackson.

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  • ljgbjgljgbjg Posts: 374
    Will take some shots and do so when I next get out to the country where it is garaged.
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Posts: 374
    No arggument with your opinion - I would say it is a #2/#3 in condition, but that is for the appraiser to say. But I will say this - it is a documented two owner rust free bondo free accident free car with an original 87,000 miles driven on weekends only after 1973, pure stock, all matching numbers. I dare say you don't see too many of those in Camaros - many cars are cobbled up, replacement engines, clones, not true SS's or RS's - there are so many visual tell tales - I see "SS/RS combinations" for sale all the time without the proper rear taillight arrangement - full tail light and back up lights below the bumper - improper gauges, 10 bolt rear ends with big block engines, the wrong "vents" on the hood, wrong tach for the engine supposedly in the car with the wrong redline, etc.. The value I would think would be in part because of its original immaculate condition versus a pristine clone, or for that matter even one with no numbers matching but otherwise a #2 car - and there are MANY of these out there. I will do some homework and see what I can find. Thanks again.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,718
    Yes the originality of the car will be a big factor in value---that's why it's necessary to get some eyeballs on the car to make any kind of intelligent decision about value.

    My attitude about old cars is the same as Carl Sagan's, that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", so, without seeing a car, I tend to be conservative in value estimates since it is so difficult for the owner to be impartial and objective (nor am I about my own cars--LOL!).

    Even an appraisal isn't the fair market value sometimes---some appraisers get rather carried away....the soundness of their value is built upon the soundness of the evidence they include in the appraisal. What they "think" isn't the point.

    But really original cars are fairly tasty meat for buyers---the only downside of buying an original car is that you can't compete in shows with restored cars and you don't want to mess up the originality with a restoration.

    This is being addressed to some extent by car shows that now have a separate "survivor" class for judging.

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  • ljgbjgljgbjg Posts: 374
    Thanks for the tip may just look into that - it might be fun. Certainly get enough thumbs up and heads turning when I drive it.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,881
    I like the "survivor" cars that haven't been over restored.

    The little scratches, imperfect chrome, interiors that show wear and engine compartments that look like the did when I was a kid in high school etc.

    They are only original once.
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