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Have You Ever Heard of a _________?!!

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Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You could be right, Ralph...funny, I remember the movie (1968) but not the main car star...it is an odd movie that has its moments, but it certainly is a car movie (not necessarily flattering portrait though).

    Facel-Vega is an odd car, too, so it would be appropriate. They were made 1954-64, first using Chrysler V-8s in very plush, custom-made bodies. In the late 50s I believe it was, they came out with a smaller model, the Facellia, with their own dohc engine that was so miserably bad it really sunk the company. They tried to substitute a Volvo B18 engine, which is a sturdy, simple but noisy little powerplant--too late, though...they went belly up in 1964.

    I've driven a couple of the V-8 Facels...they are definitely 50s in steering and brakes...more like American cars than European. They have a very small following today, but are collected by a few diehard Franco-philes. They typically are seen in pretty bad shape, since body parts are nearly impossible to find and must be made, but a decent one can sell in the $25K range.

    Boy, that was one weird movie.
  • badgerpaulbadgerpaul Member Posts: 219
    When I was in high school there was one of these that sat behind the local Toyota/Volvo dealer, as I recall it sat there for years, apparently waiting for parts.
  • vmanvman Member Posts: 103
    That's a place to start anyway. I'm not saying I'd be in pursuit of one, but the curiosity was eating at me pretty good. I'd settle for a good photo. That was indeed one weird flick but it had a certain magnetism that parallels the need for people to stop on the highway to 'check out' an accident scene. There was also another eyecatcher in there too. The main characters tried to steal it from another guy after their car was wrecked. It was a small red Porsche I'd dare say.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Here's a website that looks pretty interesting:

    http://www.facel.com/himain.htm

    Maybe even more than you ever wanted to know about them.......
  • vmanvman Member Posts: 103
    You Da Man! You beat me to a web search on the car in question. I can say that this is the one I was looking for. Thanks a bunch! Now, if I could only read French!
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    Rob Walker occasionally does articles in R&T about cars he's owned or driven or whatever. Most of them he's able to remember somewhat fondly; there are very few that he feels were just dumb, lousy turkeys. But the Facel Vega is one such turkey. I don't recall that he had anything good to say about it. Apparently it had all the worst qualities of American and European cars of the period. Cost a bundle too.
  • vmanvman Member Posts: 103
    From a cost to performance standpoint, that's probably true. I was simply struck by the outward beauty and roadster appeal of the car I saw in the movie. I have collected a bunch-o-pictures from the website that Mr_S. found and am satisfied with that. You also, however, have to consider rarity and collectibility, and apparently, there is quite a following for the car. Some things don't always make sense when you look at them in a pratical light, but I'd bet you or I wouldn't mind a cruise in one of those little coupes.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yes, it's interesting that a collectible car doesn't have to really be a "good" car--in fact, it seems that the more troublesome a car is, the more likely someone will think it worthy of preservation.

    I will say, though, that I think for a car to achieve a real "classic" status, it *does* have to be outstanding in some way, and here's where I think cars like the Facel, these "oddities", don't ever really get much beyond 'cult car' status. By cult car, I mean that there are more worshippers than people who'd actually pay anything for them. But some graet cars, the minute a really great example turns up, there are more buyers than you can count.

    That's a good comment ont the Facel...combines the worst traits of American and European cars...there was a perverse sort of genius to be able to do that!
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    Didn't mean to suggest that there's anything wrong with being interested in a car that's not one of the best of the best. I myself have a perverse interest in lots of oddball machines that will never be solid investments, fun, good transportation or anything.

    I tend to gravitate toward underappreciated things. In some possible hypotherical scenarios this could pay off, like if something catches on right after I get one. Generally though, this tendency has me looking at cars that nobody in their right mind would put money into.

    I'd like to drive a lot of the old bombers. I even think it would be great to own a Facel Vega that was first owned by some 3rd-rate movie star during his meteoric climb to the top and sold during his meteoric decline 2 yrs later. This after all was a company that somehow managed to convince princes and kings to buy them. Many of them must have been owned by such people, or by princes of exiled former royal families. They gotta at least have good leather and good chrome.

    You could probably get the funky electrical, cooling, etc problems worked out, and the Chrysler drivetrain must surely be fixable or replaceable.
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    Speaking of chrysler drivetrains, I wonder if Monteverdis are worth anything nowadays.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It seems that all the Italian "hybrid" cars suffer from a massive lack of recognition. Maybe the problem is that there were a) never enough made to have an impact and b) none have a racing history...so there was no time or inclination to stamp the image of the car upon the public's imagination.

    As for owning a Facel, I think one first would have to truly comprehend how difficult a car this would be to keep in running condition...the engine is the least of the problems, but the cooling, brakes steering, body integrity, electrical...these things could drive you nuts, each and every day, in a special, special way.
    Your passion would have to be so strong as to overpower reason, and, for me, at least, it is difficult to comprehend that level of passion for that type of car...but then, there are people who really like Wayne Newton, so what do I know for certain....
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    I remember a couple other hybrid Italians from the 60's. One was called the Appollo, and carried an aluminum Buick 215 V8. Anyone know how many of these were made, or how they performed at all? I only remember seeing one on a dealer's lot, and hearing the salesman explain the car. I don,t even remember what dealership carried the car-but it was an attractive body.
    The other hybrid I remember had a small block Chevy in it, and had more of a squarish, 2dr sedan bodystyle. I can't even remember the name, but the year was 1965. I remember the car as being very attractive. I want to say Cheetah, but I think that was the name of another hybrid. Anyone know?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The Apollo was a Milt Brown design and built by Intermeccanica of Italy. They made 88 Apollos, of which 11 were convertibles, plus after Apollo went under in 1964, Intermeccanica sold additional bodies to a Texas firm that called the car the Vetta Ventura.

    The Apollo was a really lovely car, but choosing the Buick engine was regrettable, as it was a troublesome unit (still giving trouble today in the Range Rover--the gift that keeps on giving).

    The Apollo GT was seen in the movie The Love Bug.

    I met Milt Brown a few years ago...still lives in Berkeley, I think, and still designing things.

    Cheetah--1963--amazing car built by Bill Thomas, famous California Chevy tuner...he wanted a car to match the Cobra, and he did that and better, with the Cheetah putting up much better performance numbers
    than the Cobra....400 hp and 6.1 liters...I'm reading here that the engine was set so far back in the frame (for weight distribution), that the transmission is connected to the differential only by a u-joint, not a prop shaft!

    16 of these gull-wing coupes were built, but Chevy did not wish to support homologation by helping Thomas build the required 100 of them to qualify them for racing. So they never got to race the Cobras, which was too bad, they probably would have succeeded in whittling down the Cobra legend a substantial number of notches.
  • vmanvman Member Posts: 103
    I hear you! My last 'project' car was a 67 Olds 98. Talk about old bombs! In all honesty, though, nothing went down the road like that one. There was more steel in that car than three new ones.

    I'm no professional mechanic, but have been lucky enough to work beside one in his home garage. One important lesson I learned along the way; they all look the same from underneath when they're puking oil and rust in your face!

    I appreciate your comments and always welcome diverse points of view. I'm happy just to have a free and open forum to do so.

    Carnut4: I vaguely remember the Cheetah too. We're going to have to find a picture of one of those!
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    The Chevy small block hybrid I was trying to remember was not the Cheetah. I remember that one now-the u-joint driveline, etc. The car I'm thinking of looked more like a Maserati 2dr sedan-very nice, well balanced lines, and a small block Corvette V8. I'll have to look in some back issues of Road&Track- I believe that's where I remember reading a road test around 1965.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Iso-Rivolta?
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    Ahh, the Iso's. Not that that's necessarily the car that carnut's thinking of, but they're an interesting make too, and a brief, shining (and rusting) moment in cold war, post-war history.

    I wonder if there's a club for bizzaro Italian hybrids? I wonder if there's a club for cars that nobody in his right mind wants?

    Somebody could write a book about that odd, brief period in history where Chevy, Ford and Chrysler all had, or were had by, Italian mistresses; when Pininfarina toyed with fins, even on Ferraris, and produced designs for Nash, Cadillac and maybe others.

    If you want to do it Shift, I promise I won't sue you later for using the idea. All i ask is a small editorial credit and a coach-class ticket to Torino to gather info.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah, right, now there's a labor of love...okay, you must be thinking of the Bizzarini Strada?
    That and Iso are the only Chevy-block Italian hybrids I can think of right off....unless you're thinking of a Devin SS, which was an Italian design of sorts with Chevy power, but really American-made all the way...great car, too, very successful in sports car racing in America.
  • jeffsjeffs Member Posts: 23
    The Buick Reatta was assembled in Flint MI.
  • dranoeldranoel Member Posts: 79
    OK Mr_S you seem to know your cars/trucks--When I was a mere child (during WW II), I recall seeing an Indiana truck (hard rubber tires) and a Grant roadster, what can you tell me about them ?
    dranoel
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    That's it-the Iso-Rivolta. Last night I remembered -either Iso Rivolta or Iso Rivera. How many were made, and how many still around? Anyone know? [not that I would want one-just curious].
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    ISO-RIVOLTA was a 2 door, 4-seat coupe designed by Bizzarrini, with a 5.4 liter Chevrolet V-8. Production was 797, from 1962-70...then they built a 4-door version of the car called a Fidia, designed by Ghia (so you know it's probably ugly), and 192 of those were built, some with Ford V-8s.

    GRANT---there were actually three different Grants...one a very early car that isn't the one you're thinking of, then the Grant Motor Company of Detroit, michigan, and they made cars from 1913 to 1922 in both Detroit and Cleveland. There was also the Grant Six out of Cleveland (no relation) built in 1912-13...Grant was a good little car, say the historians, but never made more than 3-4,000 cars a year, and died in the post World War I depression of the early 1920s (not the Great Depression of 1929, which killed off lots more car companies).

    INDIANA--this company has a convoluted history from 1911-1939, and was absorbed by the White Truck Company.
  • dranoeldranoel Member Posts: 79
    Thanks for the Indiana/Grant info--I knew you'd be up to it.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    i've never seen a Grant...it would be a rare car if one survived, but probably not worth a whole heck of a lot, unless perhaps it was the ONLY one.
  • diazodoktor2diazodoktor2 Member Posts: 23
    Gee, all this nostalgia about the good ole' 60,s.Kinda brings a tear to my eyes. How about a German Ford Taunus?? Ever seen one of those? DKW, NSU Prinz, Borgward Isabella (beautiful little coupe, poor man's mercedes) Simca Aronde had a flat head Ford V-8 60 HP. derivitive engine. Hillman Minx convertable (had one) Singer convertable? Where have all these cars gone. I sure would like to see some in restored condition.Triumph Hearld convertable and how about the Messersmidt mini car , looked like a airplane fuselage without wings,tandem seating. Whar great fun in those days and remember most of these cars sold for less than $2500.00 and the build quality for the time was pretty arn good. Mr. Shiftright your knoweldge of cars is amazing what is your background?
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    I remember the Taunus. Ford has had some interesting cars produced in Europe and Great Britain. I remember all those imports from the fifties. Remember the Renault 4CV and the Citroen 2CV? The Citroen is still produced, I think. I saw what must have been a fairly recent version driving around here several months ago. Actually, I see some modern cars that seem to take a styling que or two from this car. And what did the CV mean? Why the 2 and 4 for the Citroen and Renault?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    CV means Cheval or "horse"...so 2CV is two horses...but really, I think the horsepower was more like 16 and later on upwards of a mighty 30 or so...not quite sure of those numbers but something like that...

    Most of those funny little cars from the 50s just didn't last because a) they were built of very rustable steel and b)compared to their sexy counterparts, like MGs and Jaguars and the like, no one thought them worth preserving. Even today there is not a great deal of collector interest, but occasionally you'll see someone preserving a Hillman or a Simca out of love...certainly not for profit. The general rule of thumb is that some car that was not particularly popular then will not be popular now.

    The only exceptions would be the little Messerschmidts and the 2CVs...the "bubble car" and micro-car craze is pretty strong right now, and you can get decent money for a restored mini-car...but these two cars were always well-thought of and loved, even when they were new--so that probably explains their popularity and preservation today.

    I come from a car and motorcycle-crazed family...my dad worked for Packard...we've all had hundreds of cars among us at one time or another. I have a nephew who likes '59 Cadillacs, which mortifies me, but hey, to each his own...he does a good job restoring them.
  • kurokuro Member Posts: 8
    My uncle had a Taunus. He tried to teach me how to drive a manual transmission in that car. I recall that it had what he called an "electric clutch." There was no clutch pedal, but the clutch disengaged when you touched the shift lever(mounted on the steering column, of course). Does anyone remember how that worked?
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    Earlier in this conference we were talking about Renaults, which had a similar electric clutch, except the shifter was on the floor. Mr. Shiftright explained how that worked in post#121. I don't know if the Taunus worked the same way or not. Mr.Shiftright?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No, I don't think the GErmans would have come up with such a strange system as a magnetic clutch...I'd expect it was a electric clutch worked by big relays, similar to the "Hydrak" found in late 50s Mercedes. These were invented as inexpensive alternatives to a fully automatic transmission, which was difficult to design into a small car...at least until the Japanese did it with the 1973 Civic...but even they were initially forced to design an automatic that had to be shifted manually from Low to High range because they couldn't fit the whole system in there.

    Now, of course, you can tuck a 4-speed automatic transmission under your arm...well, almost.

    Ford almost produced a little German-designed Ford car here in the US in the late 40s, called a Cardinal, but once they realized Americans wanted huge cars in vast numbers and that fuel economy was not important, they abandoned this car to obscurity.

    It took foreign manufacturers a long time to figure out how to make a car that was actually suited to US driving conditions. The first Japanese cars to come here in the 1950s were disasterous on US roads....ditto Simcas and Heralds and the like...they didn't have the power, stamina and strength to hang in on the freeways. It was really BMW, with the 1602 and 2002 that figured out how to please Americans, in the late 1960s.
  • diazodoktor2diazodoktor2 Member Posts: 23
    Shiftright you amaze me!! How about a Sunbeam Imp, little rear engine thing about the size of a BMC Mini with a really maxed -out tiny OHC engine,Coventry Climax mabe. Never saw one on this side of the pond but in Morocco of all places. They were overrun with Citroen 2cv,s, even used them as taxis. What a ride dodging the donkeys and camels on the road to Rabat!! Another Brit car, the Berkley, was around about that time, think it had a motorcycle engine rear mounted. Also what Brit car had a wooden unibody? No, not a Morgan bodywork only. Ha! I guess the Brits lost the race as to how fast these various cars would rust out. Does Fiat hold the record on self destruction vehicles? Too bad too because they had some of the most beautyful coachwork around. Remember the Siata that used a Crosley engine in Class "H"?
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    The Berkley wouldn't have rusted out as it had a fibreglass body, unusual for the time. They were mostly three wheelers (one at the back, two at the front), but the last of them had four. The engine in the one that I owned, many years ago, was a 700cc Royal Enfield twin with four forward speeds and no reverse. From the front it looked like a scaled down Jaguar E Type, the rear view is best forgotten. Were they imported here?
  • diazodoktor2diazodoktor2 Member Posts: 23
    Shiftright: Don't think they were imported here in any great quantity. The one I saw was near Lakenheath AFB, England about 1962 or 1963. Recently toured the Morgan plant, what a hoot! They are still makin' em pretty much as they did 40 years ago. VERY sweet people, treat you like family when you go there.

    How about a Gogomobile? Little German? car made late 50's or so ? Vauxhall Victor ? Siata Spring ? Based on a Fiat 600 platform I believe with coachwork that looked like a MG TD on steroids! My brother in law has one in his barn up in Ohio. Worth restoring Shiftright? I really long for those days when you could, in 1954, get a MG TF 1500 out the door for about $2100.00. If we had only known. But, who had $2100.00 just out of highschool!
  • sbarersbarer Member Posts: 35
    How's this for obscure: The car of the month in the Texas Triumph Register is a Triumph GTR-4 Dove.

    So what is that, you are probably asking? It is a hatchback/GT version of the TR-4.(From the TTR:) "Very few Doves were built - reportedly between 55 and 100; approximately 33 still exist. They were given full warranty and the official designation of GTR-4 by Triumph, a reflection on the quality work of the Sussex coachbuilding firm Thomas Harrington which re-bodied TR-4s for then Wimbledon Triumph dealer L.F. Dove - from which the Dove derived its name. The Dove provided a 2+2 option for Triumph enthusiasts with small families, albeit with premia of 30% in price and 400 pounds in weight. It pre-dated the MBG GT by two years."

    to look at a fine example at this very rare auto: http://freeweb.pdq.net/txtr/carmonth.html
  • vmanvman Member Posts: 103
    Looks like something Maxwell Smart would drive!
  • reBMWreBMW Member Posts: 26
    Simon Templar perhaps, but Maxwell Smart never!
  • jucalerajucalera Member Posts: 1
    I come in here to learn about automobiles, and learning I'm; it's amazing the amount of knowledge out-there. By no means a foreign or classic cars expert, I'd the chance to drive many of the smaller cars everyone has mentioned...used to live in South America many years ago, where cars like the Renault series 4, 6, 12, 17 were the "affordable" average person cars; Simca's were the younger people car. Down there there were multi-uses for the smaller sizes, from public transportation (taxi), to street legal racers, couldn't afford to own an American car! The one I remember the most was the Renault 4 with the dashboard stick shift....
  • spokanespokane Member Posts: 514
    I have never seen one of the dashboard-shift Renaults outside Europe but I suppose there could be a few here in the USA.

    In theory, this seems like the ideal place for the shift; easy to reach and operate. I never drove one but as a passenger it appeared that shifting gears was rather like trying to open a balky umbrella......

    Were they all awkward to shift or was that unique to the car I rode in?
  • SpangSpang Member Posts: 6
    I owned a Simca 1000 and a Seat 1500 when I was living in Spain back in 1980.

    Mike
  • theremintheremin Member Posts: 26
    When I was in high school in the mid seventies, there was one somewhat oddball family who owned & drove a DAF. It was a strange little boxy-ish car with a weird, slightly downward curve to it's front-to-back lines. I'd never seen one before, and haven't seen one since.
  • kpkpkpkp Member Posts: 1
    Talking about DAF's, I remember back in England the DAF's were belt driven. I mean the power from the crankshaft was tranmitted to the wheels via a belt/chain.
  • diazodoktor2diazodoktor2 Member Posts: 23
    Re DAF: This was, as far I know, the first variable speed auto tranny production car. I bet SHIFTRIGHT would know. Am I right? So Honda with their VS Transmission is nothing new.
  • diazodoktor2diazodoktor2 Member Posts: 23
    Re Renault dashboard shift: The later model Corvairs had their auto tranny shifter on the dashboard as well. Does anyone know what a Issigonis Tranverse Triplane was? Shiftright do you know?
  • diazodoktor2diazodoktor2 Member Posts: 23
    Re Renault dashboard shift: The later model Corvairs had their auto tranny shifter on the dashboard as well. Does anyone know what a Issigonis Tranverse Triplane was? Shiftright do you know?
  • spokanespokane Member Posts: 514
    Theremin, kpkp, and diazodoktor2... you may be interested in more DAF trivia in posts 122 through 132 of this topic.
  • cooksterdogcooksterdog Member Posts: 9
    does any one remember the renault caravelle? it was a hardtop/soft top. you could take off the hard top and it was a roadster, put the soft top up when it got cold or drizzly. had one in 1965 it had come here,calif,by way of an airman at march airbase bringing it back from germany. mine had a gordini/abarth special high comp head and hand made headers. my folks had a cabin in greenvally lake and the trips to the cabin could get down right HAIRY!! back then almost no cars were using disk breaks and we could make the poor renaults gloww red hot on the trip back down the mountin!! that means noooo brakes!!! and a set of shoes lasted about 3 months. I traded it in on a black with red racing stripped Babararacucudada with a 383 hipo kit and proceeded to get lots and lots of exhibition of power and speed tickets [soon found out the judge took a verry dim view of that!] spent 2 months of weekends in the riverside county jail1 and had my license REVOKED!! I did not like the jail and bought a vw bus. only 1 ticket in 33 years since! now, 5 kids and a divorce later I have a new Dodge Dakota with all the bels and whistles. But, I wonder--- with a set of headers a nox bottle and some wide profile soft compond tires hmmmmm.
  • diazodoktor2diazodoktor2 Member Posts: 23
    cooksterdog: Yes, I remember the Renault Caravelle. I had the bad luck of owning a Renault Dauphine ( French for "little princes") ha, what a junker. Anyway, when the Caravelle came out I really wanted one the worst way. Was trying to deal on one while in the Air Force but got shipped out overseas. Have seen several in Hemmings from time to time, not real expensive and pretty rare. I guess not too many survived due to the Renault platform.
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    It's the wrong topic, I know, but there's no right one.

    I saw a wonderful Alfa spyder today, parked on a shady side street. 1600 Veloce. Black lacquer. Looked very much like original paint except on the hood. Very clean bodywork. If the rocker panels had any rust it was very well-hidden.

    The interior was over-restored, unfortunately: red vinyl of pretty much the right type, but the color seemed off - a little too pinkish, and it was shiny, the way some people go nuts with the Armorall. It might even have been leather, but not *nice* leather; rather, the kind that's easily mistaken for vinyl. Very nice dash, instruments and wheel though.

    The top was off and I was impressed to see how expansive the cockpit was. A Miata, for example, is much tighter.

    I'd forgotten how nice this machine looks.
  • reBMWreBMW Member Posts: 26
    the vinyl in the alfa could have been very close to original. alfa has historically had rather poor interior materials in the bulk of its cars.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Those Alfa 1600s are swell little cars, and a whole lot better than their Fiat cousins. You can run them up to 7,500 rpm no problem, evn 8000 rpm if you're willing to risk a broken valve spring now and then.

    But to the more obscure issues----

    I know of a whole garageful of Berkeleys in, of all places...Berkeley (California, that is).The later B90 models (3 cylinder, 492cc) was pretty quick, too, but really the Sprite killed it, because the A-H offered a much more civilized car with about the same performance...and not made of plastic, either. The earlier Berkeleys used either Anzani or Excelsior engines, again with air-cooling and chain drive (two-stroke, by the way)....last models (B 105) used the Royal Enfield 692cc "Constellation" parallel twin four stroke engine...this car was definitely faster than the Sprite, but again, kind of primitive for its time.. Fun and interesting car.

    Are they worth restoring? No, not in dollar terms, but I find them worthy of preservation just because they were interesting, competent enough and certainly fun to drive...more than you can say for a Caravelle!

    Oh, the Goggomobile...made by Glas of Germany...they started with a two stroke engine of a mighty 250 cc, then four-strokes of 600 and 700 cc. There was this guy also named Bill Buckle, who built lots of different cars on Goggomoile chassis, including an attractive little sports car called the Dart.

    Again, the Sprite and the Mini killed off all these weird little fun cars.

    I heard of a guy who raced some sort of Goggomobile in SCCA...the article said acceleration was "kind of leisurely and it would be best to bring a magazine along to read while driving".
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