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Cummins or Navistar

bigfurbigfur Posts: 649
edited February 28 in Dodge
Ive decieded to buy a new one ton deisel x-cab
dually. I just can't decied between Ford and Dodge.
I would be getting a five speed Dodge or a six
speed Ford. Anhy help is much appreciated.
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Comments

  • mharde2mharde2 Posts: 278
    They are both great trucks...drive them both and go with the one you like the best. The dodge will have a 6 speed very shortly also.
  • DuckdogDuckdog Posts: 3
    Navistar is much more powerful from a pulling standpoint -- the cummins runs out of RPMs to quickly. Further with Ford putting an intercooler on the motor it will be even more of a monster.
  • cdeancdean Posts: 1,110
    the cummins are intercooled also, if i'm not mistaken. these two engines side by side on a dyno are practically identical, and it comes down to the individual gearing that ford or dodge does that makes the difference. only way to really tell is to go drive one.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,724
    It's interesting that Ford needs 2 more cylinders and 1400 cc more displacement to compete with the Cummins. That's not a slam against the Power Stroke, just an observation.
  • mharde2mharde2 Posts: 278
    The Cummins has a much longer stroke than the Navastar so it takes a little longer to wind up. Once it gets up some rpm it actually out performs the Navastar. The new 24V Cummins engine turns more RPM(3200) than the 12V(2700),and has a Peak torque of 460lbs from 1600 RPM and holds it through 2700 RPM. So at 2500 RPM you are getting maximum HP & torque.
    The two are very close over all, and when they both have a six speed behind them and the same rear end ratio, it will be a toss up. Both diesels are great, and its a tuff choice. Its a no loose situation.
    If you have never owned a diesel its will amaze you what awesome power they can deliver. Not tire smoking power, but pulling power. You have to experience it, it can't be explained.
  • cdeancdean Posts: 1,110
    you're right, but oh, at what price?
  • cdeancdean Posts: 1,110
    ooops,

    i was going to say, remember the diesels of old that were very cost effective to buy, and lasted forever, they just didn't have quite the horsepower they do now.
  • mharde2mharde2 Posts: 278
    If the power war continues, and GM can jump in there somewhere, its exciting to think how far they can go. They are already capable of enough power to twist a pick up into a pretzel.
  • cdeancdean Posts: 1,110
    thats what kinda of scares me as my truck hits about midlife, and i start thinking what i will do within the next 5 or 6 years. to make a truck with that much power costs money, and costs even more money to make the truck able to handle all the power. for those of us who don't want it all, it makes it very expensive. i'm sure everyone doesn't want all these airbags, and anti locks, and cd players and leather stuff, but those out there who do want it have sure made it expensive. the diesel market has done the same thing. everyone wants a powerstroke or cummins and is willingly to pay between 4 and 5 thousand for an engine alone, well they're going to make all the can, and make a new on even more powerful and more expensive.
  • BrutusBrutus Posts: 1,113
    Maybe we will see two types of diesels, a heavy duty and a light duty. Navistar is working on a diesel for the other Ford trucks, like the Explorer. That can't be the same diesel that goes into a full size F-Series. That might keep costs down some. On the options issue, you can still buy a basic F-Series without the CD, leather, power everything for thousands less than an XLT or Lariat model. I think the key for the manufacturers is to continue to offer as much of a selection as possible, so they don't price too many people out of the market.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,724
    cdean & brutus

    The dealers generally don't make it easy for those who want choice. True, those vehicles are available, but you probably will have to order it from the factory if you want specific items. I think most dealers (unless you go to a "truck only" dealer) stock vehicles with a lot of luxury items, hoping that the customer will (A) be seduced by that stuff, and (B) the customer finds it easier (and certainly quicker) to buy something right off the lot.

    Bob
  • BrutusBrutus Posts: 1,113
    Good point. "Why not finance this vehicle with all the options for one year longer and still get the same monthly payment, rather than order and wait a couple of months on a truck that won't be near as fun to drive." At the same time, I am surprised at how many two wheel drive F-150XL model trucks I see on the road here in the DFW metroplex.
  • BrutusBrutus Posts: 1,113
    I have to admit that I'm spoiled by all of the options available. I'm not even sure that I would remember how to manually roll a window up. It's, kind of, like I'm not sure I would know how to change the channel on my tv if I lost the remote control. Technology!
  • richflynnrichflynn Posts: 147
    I think that Brutus said it very well. As a creature that appreciates comfort, I don't mind the few extra bucks for the comfort.

    Besides, the goodies make the vehicle acceptable for quite a few years longer. Typically I would trade my stripped down vehicles every two to three years. Once I realized how little the goodies cost, my vehicles became comfortable and usable for much longer. Now I'm going 6 & 7 years between new vehicles.

    Rich
  • bigfurbigfur Posts: 649
    one other question, this is a biggy. Do i get the auto or the six-speed?
  • stanfordstanford Posts: 606
    Do you do any city driving? During the week, my 350 is used for daily commutes between Dallas and Plano (25 miles each way). With the 5 speed (and never using 1st unless towing) the limited rev band of the diesel really gets annoying (especially with the 4.10s). I'm opting for the automatic and 3.73s next time.
  • BrutusBrutus Posts: 1,113
    I swear by stick shifts. I like the ability to select when I shift and not to have to worry about the truck hunting for a gear, especially in climbs. However, having spent the past five years in Southern CA and now in Dallas traffic, I have to admit the auto is the way to go. A stick in stop and go traffic is no fun on a regular basis. I went with the auto on my new truck. I'm still concerned about it hunting for gears in the mountains under the load of the new 3000+ pound camper I will be putting on it.
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    Brutus,

    if the new 4R100 lives up to its billing, you should be able to hand-shift that as well as the E4OD. Ford, to their credit, still uses a "2 only" position on the HD automatics, instead of the "2" being 1-2. I hand-shift my 47RE in my Ram quite a bit, and it works pretty well against the diesel.
  • cdeancdean Posts: 1,110
    these folks have got there stuff together, at least on transmission performance, if not yet longevity. almost all of today's new trannies don't do the "searching" for gears you fear. the only time you may get an unusual shift is when maybe you do something to the throttle at the same time the load changes or something out of the ordinary. i think you made a good choice, Brutus.
  • paul4paul4 Posts: 1
    has anyone heard any reliable fuel mileage comparisons between the cummins and powerstroke in normal everyday driving without a heavy load?
  • pat4pat4 Posts: 1
    I have had terrible experiences with my E4OD tranny while backing my rig ( ford f-250 diesel) into an uphill camping spot while hitched to my 5th wheel trailer. Since it does not lock up in reverse and the tranny ratio is about 2.3 in reverse the heat generated is great and immediate. I have installed the largest cooler I could find but have not tested it yet. I would appreciate any comments. As a result I am considering a manual tranny in the future. Ford's new 6 speed manual seems like it may be a good choice.
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985
    I don't see anyone bringing up that dog from GM. Hey guys! Wake up! Ford and Dodge knew where to get competent machines. Once again, the company with the most divisons shows the others that they need not envy anymore.
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    Roc,

    This goes back to the whole outsourcing thing. Chrysler and Ford went out and bought suitable engines from experienced diesel manufacturers. GM made the 6.2 in house - and don't let anyone lie and tell you the 6.2/6.5 is a Detroit Diesel. The engine was transferred to DD from Chevrolet during the mid-80s division reorganization, then the engine was returned when DD was sold to Penske.

    Had they wanted to, GM could have asked Detroit to make a good diesel - a lot of old C/K owners have plopped the 6V53 turbo in their trucks with great results.
  • cdeancdean Posts: 1,110
    they only have problems with keeping front tires from wearing out because of the engine weight!
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985
    kcram,
    So Detroit is under Penske? I didn't know that. Right on about outsourcing; I just wish that the UAW would see it to. Gotta save the 20% that aren't worth a damn but lining the Bosses pockets. Sometimes I don't see too many differences between a cult and unions in the way their following behaves.
    Question about "being returned". Returned the engine back to Detroit or GM?
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    sorry - away this weekend (for a change...)

    When Penske bought Detroit Diesel from GM, the 6.5 V8 diesel was returned to GM, as Penske did not wish to build it. It is listed as a GM diesel now, not a Chevy diesel as the original 6.2 was.
  • mharde2mharde2 Posts: 278
    Here is something to ponder. Why is it that Ford uses Cummins diesels in their medium duty trucks such as the Ford F800? Also most of the other medium duty haulers use the Cummins. I did see a medium duty GMC with a Caterpiller. Haven't seen anything above an F series pickup with a powerstroke in it....
  • cdeancdean Posts: 1,110
    powerstroke is basically about as big as it gets for International. they don't make anything really bigger, which would be needed for the medium duties. cummins, on the otherhand... their motor for dodge is about the smallest one they make.
  • BrutusBrutus Posts: 1,113
    I had heard a rumor several years ago that Ford had an ownership interest in Cummins. After Dodge redesigned their pickups a few years ago and became more competitive, I had heard a rumor that the Cummins/Dodge relationship would terminate sometime after the year 2000. However, I haven't heard anything recently about the rumor and Ford seems pretty content with the performance of their Powerstroke and their relationship with Navistar. I have no idea if the rumor was just idle chit-chat from someone who didn't have a clue, or if there was actually some basis for it in the past. If nobody else has heard anything about it, I doubt there was any truth to it.
  • stanfordstanford Posts: 606
    Ford does own Cummins, yes. Navistar, who makes the powerstroke, has engines up to 300 hp with 1050 lbft of torque. Not the 600hp 2000lb monsters that cummins has, but more than enough for medium-duty applications.

    Personally, I think that the Powerstroke drives nicer around town. I will admit that I'm getting jelous of the 22-24mpg statements from the Dodge owners though, with the new PSD numbers sounding more like 18-20 at best.

    Just as glad Dodge doesn't make a crew cab -- then I'd actually have to decide between them.
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