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Cummins or Navistar

2

Comments

  • pat4pat4 Posts: 1
    I have had terrible experiences with my E4OD tranny while backing my rig ( ford f-250 diesel) into an uphill camping spot while hitched to my 5th wheel trailer. Since it does not lock up in reverse and the tranny ratio is about 2.3 in reverse the heat generated is great and immediate. I have installed the largest cooler I could find but have not tested it yet. I would appreciate any comments. As a result I am considering a manual tranny in the future. Ford's new 6 speed manual seems like it may be a good choice.
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985
    I don't see anyone bringing up that dog from GM. Hey guys! Wake up! Ford and Dodge knew where to get competent machines. Once again, the company with the most divisons shows the others that they need not envy anymore.
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    Roc,

    This goes back to the whole outsourcing thing. Chrysler and Ford went out and bought suitable engines from experienced diesel manufacturers. GM made the 6.2 in house - and don't let anyone lie and tell you the 6.2/6.5 is a Detroit Diesel. The engine was transferred to DD from Chevrolet during the mid-80s division reorganization, then the engine was returned when DD was sold to Penske.

    Had they wanted to, GM could have asked Detroit to make a good diesel - a lot of old C/K owners have plopped the 6V53 turbo in their trucks with great results.

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  • cdeancdean Posts: 1,110
    they only have problems with keeping front tires from wearing out because of the engine weight!
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985
    kcram,
    So Detroit is under Penske? I didn't know that. Right on about outsourcing; I just wish that the UAW would see it to. Gotta save the 20% that aren't worth a damn but lining the Bosses pockets. Sometimes I don't see too many differences between a cult and unions in the way their following behaves.
    Question about "being returned". Returned the engine back to Detroit or GM?
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    sorry - away this weekend (for a change...)

    When Penske bought Detroit Diesel from GM, the 6.5 V8 diesel was returned to GM, as Penske did not wish to build it. It is listed as a GM diesel now, not a Chevy diesel as the original 6.2 was.

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  • mharde2mharde2 Posts: 278
    Here is something to ponder. Why is it that Ford uses Cummins diesels in their medium duty trucks such as the Ford F800? Also most of the other medium duty haulers use the Cummins. I did see a medium duty GMC with a Caterpiller. Haven't seen anything above an F series pickup with a powerstroke in it....
  • cdeancdean Posts: 1,110
    powerstroke is basically about as big as it gets for International. they don't make anything really bigger, which would be needed for the medium duties. cummins, on the otherhand... their motor for dodge is about the smallest one they make.
  • BrutusBrutus Posts: 1,113
    I had heard a rumor several years ago that Ford had an ownership interest in Cummins. After Dodge redesigned their pickups a few years ago and became more competitive, I had heard a rumor that the Cummins/Dodge relationship would terminate sometime after the year 2000. However, I haven't heard anything recently about the rumor and Ford seems pretty content with the performance of their Powerstroke and their relationship with Navistar. I have no idea if the rumor was just idle chit-chat from someone who didn't have a clue, or if there was actually some basis for it in the past. If nobody else has heard anything about it, I doubt there was any truth to it.
  • stanfordstanford Posts: 606
    Ford does own Cummins, yes. Navistar, who makes the powerstroke, has engines up to 300 hp with 1050 lbft of torque. Not the 600hp 2000lb monsters that cummins has, but more than enough for medium-duty applications.

    Personally, I think that the Powerstroke drives nicer around town. I will admit that I'm getting jelous of the 22-24mpg statements from the Dodge owners though, with the new PSD numbers sounding more like 18-20 at best.

    Just as glad Dodge doesn't make a crew cab -- then I'd actually have to decide between them.
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    Here's what happened with that rumor and the whole Ford/Chrysler/Cummins relationship:

    Ford owned a small percentage (about 5-10%) of Cummins stock, because they use Cummins as their standard diesel engine in medium and heavy trucks (class 6-7-8), as do many other heavy truck builders. Chrysler has an exclusive contract with Cummins in the lower weight classes. Both Chrysler and Ford have a seat on the Cummins board of directors (as of last year - haven't seen the latest boardmember list).

    In 1996, Chrysler DID extend their agreement with Cummins into the next decade; use of the ISB was step one, and Cummins is already working on the next engine for the Ram, currently scheduled for summer of 2002 for the 2003 models. Ford then extended their agreement with Navistar after seeing the success of the factory turbocharged Powerstroke (and the 1999 version is the result of THAT agreement). Ford also sold their heavy truck line to Freightliner (Sterling) and paired the medium duty line to just the F800, knowing they would be making the 550 from the new SD chassis. Thus, Ford saw no need to maintain its stock holdings in Cummins, as they would not be using as many Cummins engines as before, and sold them all back in the spring of 1997.

    Ford still uses the Cummins ISB as the standard diesel offering in the F800, and it's simply a higher output version of what the Ram uses. You can also get the Cummins ISC (8.3 liter six) in the F800 as well if I recall correctly. They have also asked Navistar to develop a smaller diesel for the F150/F250LD/Expedition/Navigator chassis to compete wwith the GM 6.5 in the half-ton market.

    The rumor pretty much amounted to this: because Ford owned Cummins stock, there was the mistaken statement made that they owned the *company*. This led to what was believed to be an obvious conflict of interest for Cummins, leading to the incorrect speculation that Cummins would drop Chrysler and go with their new "parent". The truth was, Ford never had enough stock to be a controlling interest; they felt they were a large enough customer at the time they bought the stock, and saw it simply as protecting the relationship.

    End result:

    Ford has an extended contract with Navistar, and is looking for more product from them. Chrysler has an extended agreement with Cummins and is waiting for the next new engine. And Ford currently owns NO part of Cummins. That was made VERY clear in press releases by both Ford and Cummins last year when Ford sold the stock back.

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  • stanfordstanford Posts: 606
    Mea culpa -- what I get from trusting memory rather than checking.
  • cdeancdean Posts: 1,110
    you would not believe how many people out there think ford owns cummins. i get tired of explaining how they don't. that is one rumor that took off like wildfire.
  • mharde2mharde2 Posts: 278
    stanford, I hate to tell you but, Dodge will have a crew cab comming out in a few months I have heard. I'll check back and see for sure.
  • stanfordstanford Posts: 606
    I've heard the same rumor for a long time. Even saw a couple up north. Asked one of the big dallas dealerships about it, and even after I told them that I wouldn't buy a non-crewcab they said that Dodge had evaluated it and decided not to build one.
  • mharde2mharde2 Posts: 278
    Where is thier brain....I saw a F350 dullie with 6 doors this afternoon on hwy 121. That was a long one.
  • stanfordstanford Posts: 606
    The Ford 6-door models are custom. Huge, but custom.

    One of my favorite customs is the CC short bed with the rear of an extended cab clipped on. 4 full seats, and interior storage. That, I would probably buy.
  • glenn2glenn2 Posts: 39
    I have a 93 f-250 with a 7.3 with 96,000 on it. with the service I have gotten from the truck it will be hard not to replace it with a powerstroke, but I will test drive the dodge with the cummins. what I won't do is test the GM with the 6.5 as I have heard too many horror stories.
  • RoclesRocles Posts: 985
    Real shocker for everyone: Cummins isn't God's gift to engines. Needless to say there are others.
  • bigfurbigfur Posts: 649
    but do the others offer the power, gas milage, and engine life of the cummins?
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