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Honda Civic Si / SiR 2005 and earlier
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Comments
Under my zipcode (in Detroit), I can buy a brand new model year clearance 02 Si (non side airbag model) w/ dest. included for $15,700.
Though I think in Chicago, you can buy them for like $14,500 or $15k (not sure w/ or w/o dest. included).
And some of us are guilty of making comparison to the GTI saying it cost $20k (the $4k difference as pointed out by a poster).
I'm sure some dealerships out there will be selling 02 GTI (maybe the VR6 model with 176HP or so) for well below invoice too. So, to be fair, let's us not try to take the absolute lowest price of the Si (maybe at $15k now) and compare it to what an uninformed GTi buyer will pay at a VW dealership.
If you take carsdirect.com prices, I'm seeing an 03 Si for $18k and 03 GTi 1.8T for $19k. For a $1k difference, the GTi offer a lot more content than the Si. But some people will say the realibility of VW is questionable and even resort to saying VW are junk.
From reading all your ever so exciting posts, I gather you are a primarily import car buyer (Honda/Acura) who has bought early 90s Acura Integras, Accords and Civics but never new. You even attempted to buy a used Golf or GTi (2001 model) but was turned off when you READ about all the horror stories online.
I guess any car compared to the old and used car you bought in the early 90s Honda/Acuras will definitely pale in comparison. But times have changed and though in the very important family sedan category, Accord and Camry are still the best selling family sedans, the VW Passat is the favorite choice among many reviewers. Often citing overall quality they feel in the Passat.
Hopefully when the euphoria of owning a new car for the first time in your life (forgive me if I'm wrong in accessing this) is over, you'll see the complains we have about the Si. We are not saying it is not a good car. But it can be better. All cars can be better. If only the Si has something else to brag about other than it is a Honda and all the assumed reliability that comes with it.
2338 miles on my 2002 Si and it is in the repair shop right now. Fuel system has a part being replaced. This is related to the CEL I reported earlier. Radio is defective and is being ordered. That should make the third trip to dealer for unscheduled repairs in less than 3 months. There is a problem with either the tires or suspension that is being investigated. At highway speeds there is a terrible vibration that has been getting worse.
Car has already sucked down a quart of oil. I have to check the oil every fill up.
I have more problems with this Honda Si in the first two months than I have had with any other car I have ever purchased new. And I have purchased 8 new vehicles prior to the Si. Two of them VW's which had extremely good reliability.
My experience is that Si is fun to drive but you would likely get better reliability from a Cavalier.
New car fever isn't my prob. LOL, I'm an old fart who's always driven new cars - 68 VW, 73 Nova, 77 Toy Truck, 84 Cavalier, 89 5.0 Stang, 99 Toy Truck, 99 SI - and before that, new motorcycles.
My point about all this is that, given the apparant reliability and the fun factor, I'd take an SI over a GTI if they cost the same. Due to a marketing flub, the SI costs a BUNCH less than the GTI. So, economics aside even though they weigh in for the SI, I haven't found anything in the real market in the same class that equals the SI. Could be just me, though - my tastes, my read, etc. The comments here seem to reinforce that impression, though, with the biggest gripes being the SI's defroster programing, the styling, and the fact that it costs several K more to get the equivalent to an SI with more HP, tranny, and styling. All in all, those are small gripes. Being very happy with an SI seems smart to me; and I'd bet it will look smart 5 years down the pike, too (but, that's speculation).
My experience is that Si is fun to drive but you would likely get better reliability from a Cavalier.
I'm waiting for some serious rebuttal from anony and gee35. You are adding fuel to fire with that statement
It is impossible for them to comprehend that some Si do have problems like any other car out there. Just coz' her 02 is perfect it doesn't mean everyone else's going to be too.
Moparbad no lemon law issues yet on your car. Looks like you are stuck with it. I'm sure glad we didn't get that one. By the way the radio is sourced from Alpine. Guess they suck too.
http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=571&CatID=1
No wait no they don't. You just got bad luck all the way around.
Basically you have only 1 income since she buys her own car too. So, with 1 income and you buy a brand new car each and every year and in 2001 you even bought 2 new cars (Protege ES and Accord V6), enquiring minds want to know.
Btw, I noticed you listed her cars as well as yours in your list. She bought two 02 Si. Technically 1 since the first was totaled. If I'm not mistaken, other than the 02 Si, all the other cars are yours since she said she bought 2 Integras (early 90s), a used Accord, used 00 Si.
I believe the 02 Si is truly her first new car.
The cars are family car. For example my SI is in her name. Her first one was in her name but we couldn't wait for the insrance company to total her car so I went and bought her the one she drives now. And the 03 Accord will also be in her name. Whoever is in the position to get the better interest rate buys the car and whoever wanted it will pay for it. Works fine here.
We both drive the cars. There really is no my car. And I don't get the 1 income thing. We have 2.
I'll make sure I do not ask either of you about long term reliability!
FYI I never mentioned lemon law. I'm not stuck with the car. I expect all the issues to be repaired. The dealer service department is very good.
What difference does it make if Alpine or Fisher Price manufactured the radio? It is defective and is being relaced. If I give the radio a pep talk and tell it "you are made by Alpine" will it miraculously be healed?
Bad luck? There is no such thing as good luck or bad luck. Either the quality is there or it is not.
We do buy cars pretty regularly. We don't smoke, drink, or party so it frees up considerable income.
Hondas long term reliability is what made us start buying new ones when we became able. We never had issues with the older ones so we are pretty sure the new ones will be fine.
No that's bad luck to get two imperfect products from two different comapnies that have a reputation for quality. The quality is there for nearly everyone 'cept you.
We trade cars so often because we want to, we can, and we always seem to get deals we can't refuse. Ahhh ... the joys of dual income-no kids AND exceptional credit.
mopar: You have had what you consider to be a bad Honda so the quality is not there. We've had 15 and never had a problem but you expect us to say "the quality is not there with Honda" based on your experience? okay....
So many questions, but no one to answer them.
In anycase, here's my question. Which of the cars that both of you drive, do you consider is yours?
Investments are not a problem. We have Roth IRA's, stock, 401k, savings. Again we live well below our means so whatever money is left over after the above investments and after the bills are paid is ours to blow on whatever we choose.
I consider the 2002 SI to be mine (at least until the Accord Coupe gets here). But if Gee wants to drive it he has a key. That's how it ended up in the mailbox. But I'm also gonna get to drive his Accord. He better watch out though because how does that saying go ... whatever goes around comes around? Yeah ... mailboxes beware.
Hopefully I won't be making any woeful posts like moparbad. Right now, I am leaning toward a 02 fully loaded silver GTI, but hope to land it for less than the $17,300 the dealer is asking. Anony, is it true that I can get the best deal the last day of the year?
Anyway, the Si is one of 3 vehicles in our house. In my humble opinion it is a great car and great value - fun to drive, solid, tight, etc.. At the same time, there are things I don't like but that's pretty much a part of any vehicle I've ever owned. For example, I'm not completely thrilled with the silver dash - I wasn't before I bought it and I'm not warming up to it as quickly as I had hoped. I wish it has a center arm rest w/storage available as an accessory for those of us who want one, etc.. Far from major items and certainly not something that others may agree with or that make me regret my purchase - like I said, I think it's a great car. I do think it's reasonable to use this board to share opinions about enhancements we would like to see as well as problems we may (hopefully not) be having. If all we can do here is extoll it's virtues and shoot down the other then this site loses a lot of it's value and interest (for me).
The end of the month is the critical date - the 1st of the month is when the dealer has to pony up floor plans/finance charges for unsold inventory from the prior month + assortment of other incentives, quota, etc., etc. that are tied to month-end. Enjoy your new ride!
I hadn't thought about the armrest; but you're right - an armrest would be good, on long drives especially. I'd opt for a fold down, though, to preserve the open cabin for smooching.
Her SI has touches that I don't like too but all in all it's a great little car.
Answer is Electronic Power Steering. Si is the first car I've owned with EPS and I like it.
Try that link and it should get you there.
Back to my 2000 SI I see ... I paid $11,000 for it and the Honda dealer gave me $12,200, if you add in the sales tax I saved ($854) when I traded it I did make about $2000. When I bought the 2000 SI I didn't pay sales tax because I traded a 2001 Protege that was worth $11,500. When I bought the 2000 SI I had negative equity from the Mazda (even 0.0% couldn't offset the Mazda's depreciation) so when I traded the 2000 SI for the 2002 I was $2500 upside down.
I assume you bought the 01 Protege in at the end of 2000 or in 2001. Not sure if you bought it or lease it but it doesn't matter.
Let me ask you this. What do you expect when you buy/lease a brand new car for less than a year or even 1 year and TRADE IN to the dealership?? For someone who has a bf (gee35coupe) who bought a house 4 or 6 years ago and the house that has appreciated 40+ percent, one who invest in 401k, savings etc. I thought you would at least understand that cars are not, I repeat, are not assets. They depreciate the minute you sign your name on the paper. Even your beloved Si if you try to trade it in now, I can safely bet you a shiny penny the dealerships will not give you anything more than $12k. Even that amount depends on what you are buying from them. If you just wanna sell it to them, you'll get wholesale value IF they want to buy it even from you. At best, you'll get $10k on your 02 Si w/ an MSRP of $19k! Talk about depreciation. Honda has to give them away now! Sure you bought it for $16,700. Still it is a lot of money to loose in just a couple of months.
Now, I know how you got the 00 Si for $11k. Even that amount is questionably high. Sure, some dealerships are selling them for $14k, $16k etc. But there are always some fools that will buy it for that much if they are desperate enough. The problem is when you boasted about the $2k you made on the 00 Si by trading in the car, you got my attention. That's the reason why I'm paying so much attention to you
Here's how I see it. You trade in an almost new 01 Protege in 2000/2001 to get the 00 Si. Maybe you are buddies with the dealerships but where I live if you trade in a car that new, you'll get wholesale price on the tradein. You are probably taking a $4k hit just like that. But of course the dealership figures they'll make a couple of grand out of that trade and you bought the 00 Si from them. Bam. More profit to them. But fortunately, you manage to trade in the 00 Si for $1200 more (let's not count the tax credit that you got in Alabama since not all states give that) BUT like you said you were upside down on the Protege trade which you obviously rolled into the 00 Si before ($2500 worth). So when you said they gave you $12,200, you didn't make any money at all. They basically wipe out your first trade in, the Protege.
I don't know about you but if I buy a car and I continously pay the monthly payment, say for a 3 year loan, and if I do sell the car before the 3 years is up, I EXPECT to sell the car for more than what I owe! But in your case, you could be leasing the Protege before. But it is still the same. You were suppose to be paying for the depreciation of the vehicle BUT you end up paying $2500 more coz' you decided to terminate the lease early, OR if you actually bought the Protege, serves you right for selling a car less than a year of ownership. If anything, you should be taking an even bigger hit. That's why I said earlier the $11k on the Si is questionnable.
Now, you said you bought your 02 Si for $16,700 or so. Did you buy it or lease it based on that purchase price?? Now when you trade in the 00 Si for $12,200, you should still owe about $1,300. You made $1,200 for the 00 Si sale but you owe $2500 from the 01 Protege. So, that's $1300 in my calculation.
W/o knowing all the finer details of your sales/purchases (and please don't feel obligated to post them all coz' I no longer care now that you finally post the Protege trade in which you failed to mention before and who knows what other details you left out), you still lost a lot of money changing cars as often as you do each year.
I can go through our whole car-buying history and all of the "magic" deals we've gotten .. but what's the point? It all goes back to buying cars well below our means. We can buy, sell, trade, whatever we want to do and still come out ahead 9 times out of 10.
I find it so funny reading this. Magic deals! It's all in your mind. I would get an accountant if I were you. I've a piece of land in heaven to sell if you are interested. Now, that's a good investment.
Investments are not a problem. We have Roth IRA's, stock, 401k, savings. Again we live well below our means so whatever money is left over after the above investments and after the bills are paid is ours to blow on whatever we choose.
Even the really rich do not buy/lease a few cars a year. They buy cars they really like, ie. luxury cars in the $100k. Not commuter cars like the Proteges or Civics. And certainly not 4 banger family sedan like the Accord. Ok.. I forgot you decided to spend a little more and went for the V6 Accord. Maybe that came with gold trim. It is an Accord for christ sake! No matter how you look at it, it is still an Accord. Cheap family hauler.
I consider the 2002 SI to be mine (at least until the Accord Coupe gets here). But if Gee wants to drive it he has a key. That's how it ended up in the mailbox. But I'm also gonna get to drive his Accord.
Maybe I'm partially right. The Protege was probably your first truly new car. With the extra oomph in the Si, I know why you said 160HP is enough for the Si (compared to the Protege, it is monumental!). Maybe you can trade in the 02 Si when the 6 speed Accord EX Coupe hits the street. I'm sure you can buy that for $20k (even if realistic price is about $25k) since you are known to get magic deals
I'm anxiously waiting for the next episode.
The fact that the Si gets spanked by every other car in its segment doesn't mean it's a bad car: it's just not what is expected from a Honda wearing the Si badge.
I've said it before: drop the Si badging, lower the spring rates, offer an auto tranny and call it the Civic EX Three-Door and they'd actually sell like Honda expected.
Or just give us the Type-R, already.
Anyway, workload is light. So, I've plenty of time till this Friday then it is Christmas holiday will the 2nd! Not sure if I'm going to be as *obsessive* as I am now
No, we don't say Si is a bad car coz' we actually bought it afterall. What gets to us is whenever we (all others except for anony and gee35) say anything remotely bad about the Si, they'll tell us things like the Si has never been offered w/ 17" rims, so why should Honda offer it, or 160HP is more than enough for a little hatchback and if we ever bring out what the competitors are offering, GTi and SVT Focus, they will inevitably say those cars are junkyard worthy and they rather have their presumably safe and reliable Si over the competitors.
That's what get me. Them telling us what is good enough for us.
Most of the folks who own the Si have never owned a previous Si, or have little experience with Honda DOHC VTEC engines to compare the current low-revving Si mill with. Poor thing builds revs like it has a 50lb. flywheel.
The Civic Si is a fine Honda, but it's not an Si (in the classic sense of what makes an "Si") by any stretch of the marketing team's imagination.
I do remember the post to which you refer. All I can say is this: the flavor of TH improves if you take it with a grain or two of salt. ;^)
Btw, I'm a salt loving man, but I think it'll take more than a grain or two if you know what I mean
FWIW, my take is that the new SI's are not the blast that the '99 - '00 ones were. The way the market's actually working these days, though, I don't see another little, fun car in the 15-16K range that comes close. Even in '99, you couldn't buy a '99 SI for 15-16K.
Got a real world alternative to the '02 - '03 SI? In the real world, we can actually have a Type R - for about 10-12K more, plus whatever it costs to import. And, we can apparently have Type R performance and equipment (excepting tranny) - at an SI MSRP by putting 3-4K into a discounted SI or by putting an extra 6-7K into an RSX-S.
"What is, is. What oughta be is a dirty lie." - Lenny Bruce. "If wishes were horses, beggers would ride." - my Dad. "If a frog had longer legs, he wouldn't bump his [non-permissible content removed] every time he hopped." - Dunno Who. "If's and but's, soups and nuts." - Dunno Who.
So, Ham, if you were buying fresh, what would you actually buy in the real world?
Did you mean close to the bottom?
There are at least 7 "other little, fun cars" on the market that scored higher than the Si in the FUN category.
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0301scc_under20gs/
Hamproof, your "obsessive" posts look very logical and well thought-out to me.
Look what happened next:
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=357271
I think what he(or she?) was saying that in the real world you can't procure any of the other seven cars on that list for under 16k. The Focus SVT and the Spec V may come close if you find a deal, but I doubt it.
When you put the Civic SI in the 15-16k range the competition is the likes of the VW Golf, Hyundai Elantra GT, and Focus ZX3 which it does much better against.
Second point, and I think I am speaking for a number of people who have been looking at SIs and GTIs, is that we really don't have the same priorities as Sport Compact Car. The demographics for that magazine are not quite in line with what we have here. They and Car and Driver are a bit numbers obsessed with all of their instrumeted testing on race tracks.
I would take reviews from edmunds.com and Automobile magazine as more valid to me because we share the same point of view.
Does Car and Driver or SCC care that I cannot put my mountain bike in the back of one of the above 8 cars? Don't think so.
Car and Driver and SCC do not factor in things like:
- ownership costs(insurance, gas, maintenance, depreciation)
- warranty coverage
- real world prices
- interior/exterior aesthetics(I really wouldn't care what they thought anyway)
- road conditions outside racetracks
- safety equipment/ratings
- dealer network/service
- comfort/ride quality
SCC couldn't care less about amenities/features like climate control, sunroof, fold down rear seats, traction control/ESP(only as a negative if they aren't defeatable), and rear passenger room.
Also SCC does look at tunability, but I do not think C&D factors this in.
So in closing I found the best way to research automobiles is to find publications with the same priorities as me(and that I trust) and to follow up any of their reviews with first hand experience at the dealership.
Actually to tell you the truth, I didn't shop around for any other make or model. From the time I decided to sell the A4, I knew I was getting the Si because of the deals I read about here.
Then it's all up to selling the A4 and buying the Si.
I sold a 97 Civic EX Coupe in 2000 to buy what I consider the ultimate car to drive in the Michigan inclement weather conditions - turbo 1.8T, AWD, 5 speed and arguable the best interior in the business. I would have gotten an Avant (Audi speak for wagon) but it cost a few thousands more and I decided to spend less than $30k with taxes included (and all the options that I absolutely need).
Unfortunately I bought a house at the same time and my commute went up to 60miles a day. So, when I sold the car, it has 36k miles on it in 2 years. It's a bit too much to put on the car, esp. a German car that is bound to have its quirks. And I was having little electrical problems w/ the car in the 2 years and each time the dealership I have to deal with wasn't too accomodating with my needs for a rental or loaner.
And I also know to upkeep a German car is going to be costly. I don't fancy paying $60 for an oil change once my free 4y/50k maintenance is over.
So, I bought the Si coz' it is cheap. It is a hatchback (I love wagons) and it has reasonable power.
I won't get the GTi coz' then I'll be going back to a German car (VW/Audi) and worse, it will be the same dealership since they well VW/Audi/Porsche/Nissan/Mazda. I might as well stay w/ the A4. At least I get AWD and Xenon and the prestige if you call driving an A4 prestigious. They are just the same as the thousands of 3 series, X-Type, C classes that you see on the road. No where near luxury or prestige. Getting an S class for example, would be luxury in my mind. 3-series and C classes are like Accords and Camrys to me.
Anyway, if I've to do it again, I'll still buy the Si coz' it was cheap. Even if the rattling and buzzing is annoying the heck out of me, and the lack of HIDs, auto-dimming mirrors, auto-climate control, AWD are missing, I'll still buy it coz' I don't want to deal w/ the VW or Ford dealerships (the obvious competitors to the Civic Si). Not to say the Honda dealerships are excellent in service. But at least they are not as obnoxious as the VW/Audi/Porsche/Nissan/Mazda dealership that I've been going to the last 2 years.
My ideal car will be a wagon. AWD, HIDs, 250HP (NA - do not want forced induction), auto climate control, navigation, auto-dimming mirrors (rear and sides), moonroof, room for 5 comfortable (head, knee, shoulder and all), leather, lighted switches, reliable for 4-5 years, good service dept etc. All that for no more than $30k.
Sadly, it doesn't exist now.
- ownership costs(insurance, gas, maintenance, depreciation)
I believe the Si insurance will be higher coz' of the high theft rate of Hondas in general. If you are talking about gas mileage from say 22MPG to 28MPG, they are so miniscule that over the, say 4 years of ownership, it doesn't sway a potential buyer to another make or model. The hybrid Civic costing about $5k more than the regular Civic LX/EX will take more than 10 years to make up the better MPG. Depreciation? I've never seen a car MSRP at $19k dropped to $15k in less than a year since it came out. Esp. since this is not a strippo model for Honda. It was suppose to be a niche market that youngsters bet. 18-25 will clamour for. Unfortunately, that's not the case here.
- warranty coverage
I believe Hyundai has the best warranty among the 9 cars in SCC comparison followed by VW. In fact I think the Mazda warranty is better as well. VW might have the free maintenance too during the warranty period. So, overall if you keep the cars for 3 years, it'll make no difference since all the cars will be covered.
- real world prices
Sis are selling for $15k now. Keep in mind these are for the 02 models. The 03 Si are not selling at this price. Year end clearance benefited us late buyers on top of a slow selling car.
- interior/exterior aesthetics(I really wouldn't care what they thought anyway)
Personally, I like the interior of the Si. So, I'm with you here, but this is fairly subjective.
- road conditions outside racetracks
Any car that I drive in Detroit will pretty much suck. Other than the super isolated Camry or LS430 for example where you can't even feel the road.
- safety equipment/ratings
All the cars have to pass the NHTSA standards. Sure the Si got 4/5 stars compared to competitors. But AFAIK, most consumers look at this last. Mustangs and Camaros are not safe in any type of collision but their buyers just look at the HP and looks first.
- dealer network/service
This varies from city to city and state to state.
I hear Saturn dealerships are a joy to work with. Too bad they are not in the comparison test.
- comfort/ride quality
I like a firm ride. I guess in general auto reviewers like a firm sporty ride too. I haven't driven any of the other cars. But I like the Si firm ride but at times in the pot hole ridden roads in Detroits, it shakes and rattles the whole cabin of the Si.
I only wish they'll update the front grill look of the new Accords. Rear of the coupe looks really nice but the front kinda foils the look. But styling is subjective. Enjoy your car.
Long warranty isn't necessary when it has been shown Hondas require fewer repairs. I've never had a failure in any Honda that a warranty would cover.
03's are around $17K. Still a bargain.
I like the 02 SI too.
Civic are safer than most of the competition. Priceless.
That's why we leased my Accord. At the end of the three years, the Accord will have just had the mid-run refresh. If we need a 6 speed we'll buy it then. Already said that though.
That is if you want an Accord coupe. I don't think at $17k it is a bargain for the Si. Maybe $14k it is a bargain. It won't take long before the 03 Si comes down in price.
Oh yeah, the prices are found on carsdirect.com w/ my zip code.
That's good enough for me!
All the cars in the comparison article match the under 20K MSRP requirement!!!
And the most of them can be had for 15-16K or lower in the current buyer's market!
For the record my Mazda was my 4th new car.
The Accord is going to be $325 p/ month with 15,000 miles per year with $1,000 down. That price includes rear wing, fog lights, mud guards, etc.
rivertown: There are alot of cars that might beat the Civic in one area or another but the SI is the best all-around car you can get right now for their selling price. I can't think of another car you can get for $16,000 that has more than 160HP, 4 wheel discs/ABS with EBD, sunroof, cruise, keyless, alloys, a fully-independent rear suspension and Honda's reputation for efficiency and quality. I say go for the SI .. test drive it and make sure you like it first though.
Yes, the SI is MY FIRST NEW CAR! but like the SI or not, your all posting to talk about the civic not you financial stature.
So, what do you know about the after market scene? I would love some kind of short through, I saw a reduced through bracket and a kit to change the shifters pivoit point, but i dont know what else is out there for this crazy however, comfterble shifter.
Have any of you gotten around to any aftermarket switch-overs yet?
Here's proof of an SI at 15K:
http://www.communityhonda.com/advertised_specials.htm