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Honda Civic Si / SiR 2005 and earlier
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Comments
My thought is to first get clear what you want - whether it's a new car, cancel of sale, or a chunk of change and a warranty validation from Honda. I bet you'll need to work with the Zone Customer Relations guy (it's in your manual).
BUMMER. Ratfink dealer.
VERY COOL!
We stayed off the expressways and on the "steep slopes and winding road" roads (to quote a sign). We even found 20 miles of 3rd gear road - where 4th had not enough pull and sometimes you could crowd the redline in 3rd (80mph). Very, very cool! There wasn't quite the go-cart sensation of my '99 Si; but this engine is a torguey little sucker and the suspension really works. And, to top it off, I got 31 mpg. On another straighter stretch, my friend commented, "Not bad. Only twice the speed limit.", as we passed the 45 mph sign. She wasn't uneasy at all, which says a bunch about my friend and the Si.
Ya know those 'winding road' signs shaped like a snake and with an MPH figure beneath. I thought they were about 20 mph too conservative. That is, until we hit a one posted at 20 MPH. The 20's are only about 15 mph too conservative. BTW, the roads were dry; and the G was significant.
What a fine traveling car for two people! Personal stuff and groceries for 3 days packed low with the rear seats folded down.
If you've got a trip into the mountains in your future, you're in for a treat.
In the Civic's case, and discussed extensively, is there were several compromises made, especially the wheels and tires. This car seems to have been designed for 16" tires, judging from the space in the wheel wells. Also, they had to make it quiet, so they make the engine suck air through a resonator and less than optimum diameter piping. The resonator serves no other purpose, it's just a plastic box. The collector on the exhaust manifold has an inside diameter 1/2" smaller than the down pipe and exhaust pipe. Why? Maybe to make the Civic appear less powerful than the Integra. I don't have to settle for this.
I don't want a race or even a rally car. I just get some satisfaction knowing I've brought the car closer to its original design goal and still be within legal limits. Just like tossing out the most obvious cost savings, the skinny 15" tires, why does the customer have to settle for a marketing departments idea of how a car should perform? Look at the increase in sales Chrysler got by putting the funky PT Cruiser body on the Neon's chassis/powertrain. That's just marketing.
>#2050 of 2082 They are complimentary by >gee35coupe Mar 11, 2003 (4:31 pm)
>If you own them. And we do. So they are. Until >we get a TSX or a V6 Accord coupe or blah >blah.......
My point is that you just can't trust the dealer to do the 'right thing', and you have to check rigorously for anything the dealer can use to increase his/her margin without losing your cool. So, Dudka, I hope you stick to your guns and hold the dealer responsible for making this right. I bet dollars to doughnuts that he/she won't do it voluntarily.
2. I'd buy an Element is I had space in the garage.
3. The Mini is nice on the outside. Quality and interior are questionable.
4. The new Pontiac GTO seems like it's gonna be nice. I hope it's at the autoshow today.
5. Loved our Civic SI. Wouldn't buy a regular Civic though.
6 The Accord V6 Coupe 6speed (actually all Accords) is a nice ride. Saw one last weekend.
7. The TSX looks good in pictures. Hope it's at the show this weekend too.
8. All of Ford's SUV's are cool Escape, Explorer, Expedition, Navigator, Aviator. They got a nice selection.
9. Wouldn't mind a new 330Ci.
10.The C-coupe Benz is nice too.
Some of those i just admire but would not buy for one reason or another. But they are vehicles that catch my eye.
Also, for future reference: if someone asks you an off topic question in any of our vehicle discussions, you can always invite them to join you in a more appropriate discussion... or respond to their question by email.
And let's get back the subject of the Honda Civic Si/Sir. Thanks!
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
All of those are good, except the SUVs. (which I don't like in general) But I particularly agree with: G35 coupe, Mini, Element, Si. I was at a dealer this weekend, they said they sold the only V6/manual accord they were scheduled to get for $38,000!
Yesterday I was in a hurry. Parked and set the brake but failed to put it in gear.
An hour later it was down the ramp onto the sidewalk.
Don't take yours for granted.
On the upside...snow is melting...tire grip is returning:)
“To kauai, again you've been very very helpful. I did some extensive research on the SCCA and autocross.”
Excellent.
And:
“I guess in new jersey it isn't that big among teenagers, cause no one I know competes in it.”
Right.
I’d be _surprised_ if your friends had ever heard of it. “Fast and Furious,” and the like, is probably what they “know” about. But it isn’t just teenagers who are unfamiliar with autocrossing. It’s a low-profile sport that doesn’t garner much attention. I’d guess that most people have no idea it exists.
Doortstopdriver wrote:
“People consider me a relatively good driver for my age ”
I thought that might be the case. You’d commented previously about taking things seriously and striving to be the best you can be, and that was one of the things that prompted me to think _you especially_ might appreciate the benefits of competing in autocross.
Doorstopdriver wrote:
“. . . this seems like a really good way to have fun and learn something useful.”
So, you’ll try it?
Outstanding!
All my writing wasn’t in vain. :-)
Doorstopdriver asked:
“Couple questions - Is it too late in the season to start autocrossing? Will there be other teenagers at solo II competition? How would I go about practicing for something like this? And what's the time factor on making this a part of my life?”
Season is just starting; I think NJ region just had its first event this past weekend. Find the contact person for the SCCA Solo II in your area and give him a call. Ask, too, while you’re talking to him, if they’ve got any autocross drivers schools scheduled. Could be well worth the money, even if you did nothing else. Locally, they’re $50 for a day of classroom instruction followed by on-track instruction the following weekend.
Other teens in attendance, or competing? Could be. I don’t know about your region. Classes are not determined by age, but by car and the mods and preparation of that car. If you’re quickest you win, regardless of age.
Practice? That’s difficult and dangerous to do on the public roads. See if there’s an SCCA drivers school session you could attend in your area. Call around to the contacts on the SCCA website. (Autocross courses are, in effect, mini-road-racing courses, and you drive them flat out. If you try to practice that on your community streets, you’re going to be phoning home --- from jail! ;-)
Ah been tryin’ to tell ya, boy --- it’s RACIN’! ;-) You can get in serious trouble for driving that hard on the street! You shouldn’t oughta do that. :-)
Seriously, come talk to me after your first competition. You’ll understand better, then.
I predict that you will also come away from the experience with a much better appreciation of your Si. You’ll quickly learn about evaluating a car’s performance, too, and the next time you test drive cars, you’ll be much better equipped to do so.
The “time” commitment is entirely up to you. You might try it once and decide it’s not for you. You might compete randomly whenever you have the time on a free weekend. Events are usually held on Saturday or Sunday. It’ll take most of one day.
You might love it, and decide to compete in every event in your area. Great! Have at it! Who knows? You might become the local, or regional champion. You might even go to the Nationals at the end of the summer and become the USA National Champion in your class. (Would that be cool, or what?! ;-)
It’s entirely up to you, and how much time you want to give it. You’re not obligated to do anything.
One final thought for today: If you get started, and then invite your dad along to try it, too, things could work out well for you. Consider the possibility that your dad gets into it like you have. Who knows what could develop?
Maybe he’ll start asking about how you two might make your Si faster and more competitive. “Maybe we should consider the STS class,” he says to you. “What do you think we should modify first?”
Before you know it, HE’S PAYING to buy the parts! He’s hooked, and wants to make your Si faster. Just think of it! ;-)
Of course, this means you’re going to have to let him drive your Si. ;-)
Revka, did you know that Tire Rack, one of the advertisers on Edmunds, is a major sponsor of the sport of autocrossing?
Have you ever competed, Revka? You’re an avid sportscar enthusiast, right? If you haven’t tried this, you’re missing out on something I’d bet you’d love. :-)
“And, to top it off, I got 31 mpg.”
I _knew_ you had it in you! ;-)
Seriously, that’s excellent fuel economy for the driving you’ve described, and in the mountains no less. I’d be glad to get 31 mpg in those conditions.
Looks like your Si is working just fine.
River wrote:
“[She said] ‘Not bad. Only twice the speed limit.’, as we passed the 45 mph sign. She wasn't uneasy at all, which says a bunch about my friend and the Si.”
So, you touched 90 mph on a winding, mountain road, eh? We live for those “snakes” signs, right? ;-) Time to change down to third, get your boot in it, and, “have a bit of a go!” That’s what these machines were made for. <LOL!>
I’m pleased to see you post this endorsement, River. The Si body style, coupled with the “anemic-looking” wheels and tires, is misleading. I’ve suspected many readers have dismissed my similar assertions about how competent this new Si really is. This Si’s appearance belies its remarkable performance.
This is a fine stealth-mobile, far more capable than it appears. This has many benefits, not least of which is that even young fellows such as doorstopdriver can get reasonable insurance rates on it.
River, would it be fair to say that you were surprised by how good this is Si is, following your adventure in the mountains? I know you always appreciated this car, but I’m wondering if perhaps your appreciation has grown substantially?
It’s often difficult to find a test-drive environment that allows a potential buyer to explore the limits of a new car when out car shopping --- not too many “snakes” roads around car dealerships.
For those of you reading in this discussion group for the purposes of making a purchase decision, I urge you to give serious weight to River’s words. I heartily second his assessment.
For what it’s worth, we find the new Si to be a wonderful, fun, driver’s machine. We like it even more today than when we first bought it, and we would absolutely buy it again.
This Si is a wonderful sports/GT car that will reward the “serious driver.”
Join us tonight, 6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET for another round of automotive trivia and member-to-member chat. Test your skills (or multiple choice guessing ability) against other Town Hall members.
http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/townhallchat.html
Hope to see you there!
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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Share your vehicle reviews
In the interest of truth, I gotta say it wasn't 90mph on a winding stretch. I'm not all that much of an adrenaline junkie, and what gets me about this Si is the absense of the fright factor. More than anything else, this Si reminds me of a quieter version of that 5.0 Stang - with it's wiiiide, sticky, and expensive tires and it's bottomless torque.
Surprised about the Si? Hard to describe my reaction. On test driving it, I missed the VTEC surge when hitting the upper rpm's; but something about it seemed 'strong and right'. Based on the write-ups whining about the 'changed Si', I wasn't expecting the mountain machine I found last week, though. I guess I expected to hit suspension limits that I just never found. Ya know how you expect a little tire noise going into one of those 30mph snake signed stretches at 50? There just ain't no tire noise. It's surreal. Move and GO with no fuss and bother. Kinda like sky diving on valium, I'd guess. Your rear's SEATED in that bucket, and your side's pressing that bolster; and yet there's just no sense of being on the edge and your gal utters nary a peep nor gasp, in spite of her purse flopping from side to side in the footwell in the corner of your eye. This is one weird little car.
I agree, the looks make for 'stealth'. Mine's white, and more than once I've come past a law enforcement officer uneventfully where I'm sure it would have been a case of bluelight sunburn in that red 5.0 ticketmobile or the blue '99 Si. I imagine the cop saying to himself, "Naahh, that mini-minivan can't be going that fast."
I've about concluded mpg variation is partly due to gas tank shape, though I've no idea what the shape is. LOL, the last fill-up (to the point of a tiny spill over) figured out to 45+ mpg. I'll see what I can do about finding a pump where parking is slightly nose down.
BTW, I've used 3/4 quart of oil in 2.5K miles.
Second, I am hoping to do some autocrossing this summer. I don't know how much but all of the discussion here really got me excited about trying it. I picked up the "secrets of solo racing" and started reading it yesterday. Very good and informative. Now I have to do some research and figure out what I have to do to enter some local events. I have a Focus ZX3 and think it would be pretty fun to take autocrossing. Thanks for all of your input.
By the way I noticed something verrry peculiar today. With the wipers on, the brake pedel....well...pulsates...yeah I guess that's a good word for it. I was stopped at a light and noticed my foot was pulsating. I'm thinking, I don't have the music _that_ loud. So I turn it off and the pedal's still throbbing like its alive or something. Then I turn off the wipers and it goes away. Viola. Don't think its a problem, but that's kinda strange if you ask me.
“. . .I do not comfortably fit [the Si] with the sunroof.”
And if it doesn’t fit very well right now, it sure won’t fit with a helmet on! ;-)
As you say, the Si is a great car. But it’s hardly the only one; your Focus is another great car. Maybe in three years or so we’ll buy the latest iteration of the SVT Focus.
And you wrote:
“Second, I am hoping to do some autocrossing this summer. I don't know how much but all of the discussion here really got me excited about trying it.”
Aha!
I’m glad to hear that. All of my writing wasn’t directed exclusively to our young driver, doorstopdriver; I was hoping I’d reach others as well. But nobody said anything, and I was beginning to think I was just boring everyone and being a nuisance. :-)
And you wrote:
“I picked up the "secrets of solo racing" and started reading it yesterday. Very good and informative.”
I’m glad you like the book. I was impressed with it, too; it’s well worth the mere $15 it costs.
Your first event: There’s a lot of stuff on the ‘Net to read, especially for the beginner. Basically, though, all you need to do is pump up your tires, and show up as early as possible to get registered, and walk the course as many times as you can. Take pencil and pad so you can draw the course --- and work on memorizing it. You’ll discover, by the way, that the course suddenly looks very different at speed than it did on foot. Things are happening really fast in the car!
Take a flashlight out to your car, and search along the tire sidewall for the information on the maximum permissible pressure. If Ford suggests you have a front/rear balance of say 33/30, and the tire manufacturer specs 43 psi as the max, then I’d pump them up (cold pressures) to 43/40, maintaining the 3 psi difference front to rear. Now this may prove to be more than you need, but you can always bleed them down a bit. Fiddling your tire pressures, and the front to rear balance, is one of the few ways you can tweak the handling of your stock car. The main thing is to have the pressures up high enough that the tire isn’t trying to roll off the rim under the cornering forces experienced in an autocross.
Take your checkbook and cash. Fuel the car. (Geeze, I forgot that at our first ever event last year! Went racing off at the last minute in search of a gas station in a strange neighborhood, moments before the event started. Oh, my goodness. . .) Take your helmet, if you have access to one that meets the requirements. Loaner helmets are often available, but may not be the best fit, among other things. . . And take a roll of white or black electrical tape (or something like it, that contrasts with your car color) and scissors, so you can make the numbers for your car. You might want to wash the sides of your car where you’ll be applying the numbers.
For an SCCA event, your car will probably fall into either the G-Stock or H-Stock class. If your region has a “Front wheel drive street tire” class, that’s probably your best bet. This class will have you competing against a slew of other cars, many of which may be modified. However, your times will be multiplied by an index factor that’s designed to put everyone on an even playing field. (You’ll need to figure out if you’re G- or H-Stock for your index factor, assuming you haven’t modified your car in a way that takes you out of stock class.)
Be sure to get there early and tell the folks that this is your first event. They’ll help you. After you get all set up, you might ask if an experienced driver, one of the Pro class drivers, if available, could accompany you to offer some beginning advice.
And please don’t forget to come back here to “report on the Si’s at the event.” Inquiring Minds will be eager to hear how the Si’s faired against their competition --- especially the Fords!
You’re our on-the-scene reporter, okay? ;-) If you should happen to tell us how you liked it, too, well. . . that’ll be a bonus for us, and will enliven your report. <LOL>
Right, Revka? ;-)
And you closed with:
“Thanks for all of your input.”
You’re very welcome. And thank you for graciously taking the time of your day to let me know that you found my writing useful and helpful. I’m always grateful for acknowledgement of my efforts. :-)
Y’r H’mble S’rv’nt,
Kauai
“. . . what gets me about this Si is the absense of the fright factor.”
Yep, I agree. Just another way of saying how competent, how capable, this Si is. It inspires confidence at speed, doesn’t it?
This Si gives me a genuine sense of security at speed. In my view, this ’02 Si is clearly superior to our ’99 Si, and the ’99 was no slouch. This is a much stiffer platform paired with a remarkably effective suspension that gets the job done exceedingly well despite the 15” wheels and relatively narrow tires. Word is that this Si is the “most European” handling of any Honda sold in America.
I suspect a lot of folks don’t appreciate just how good this Si is until they really start driving it hard in demanding conditions like you did, River, on your mountain roads adventure. That’s why I asked you about your experience; I figured you’d discovered a greater potential than you’d initially realized was there. It’s a deceptively capable machine.
Your oil consumption corresponds with ours.
These new Si’s all seem to burn extra oil in the first 3000 miles or so as the engine breaks in and the parts smooth out and mate together. (I know you know this, River. I’m just elaborating for the newcomers.)
Following break-in, the oil consumption rate diminishes and soon becomes more like most cars. It may remain just a little higher than on some engines, but I’d guess this is by design. I suspect Honda has deliberately built a “loose” engine to reduce friction and improve performance.
Friction is hugely significant. It’s my understanding, for example, that in Formula One racing, the epitome of high-tech (if not always interesting) racing, they favor V-10 engines, because the friction of a V-12 is too much! Reducing frictional losses is important in achieving maximum performance.
My uninformed “guess,” thus, is that Honda has made our engines like this on purpose, and for good reasons.
It’s not a problem --- it’s a FEATURE! <LOL> (So, you spend a dollar a year extra topping up the oil level. I believe I’ll take it, anyway; I think I can afford that.)
Doorstopdriver, if you’re reading this: Go out and check your oil. Repeat at regular intervals; Honda recommends checking it at every refueling.
It’s good advice; you never know when something might spring a leak, right? :-) And the consequences of running out of oil are catastrophic, so. . .
“Anyway, still considering trying autocrossing. This is something I'm going to have to convince the parents of too, they might not like the fact that I'm using the car I bought to race.”
Of course. You’re absolutely right.
You’re a dutiful son, a responsible young man, and you don’t wish to jeopardize the goodwill you’ve earned with your parents --- the very goodwill that got you this fine new Si in the first place --- by engaging in something they would disapprove of.
Perhaps the best thing would be for you to first go to watch an event, not compete. Just watch. If your parents wish to attend, so much the better. Then you can discuss it with your parents with a better understanding of what’s involved.
With respect to the issue of “racing” and the wear-and-tear issue, too, autocrossing is “vigorous,” but not brutal, if that makes any sense, and unlikely to put any more wear on your fine new machine, or compromise its longevity, than the sort of driving engaged in by the average American in his daily commute. Truly.
On the typical autocross course, the times are right around 60 seconds or less. You probably won’t do more than six runs. So, that’s six minutes of driving. You’re accelerating, braking, and steering. Since you’re not shifting, the risk of over-revving your engine is eliminated. The wear on your car is inconsequential.
But you need to go and watch an event so that you might see and judge for yourself.
You wrote:
“The tires I know will wear out faster, but I'm more concerned about the engine. You said these races pretty much keep you in second gear near redline for most of the time. That has got to have some malicious effects on the engine. Granted, "its a Honda" as everyone says, but could you possibly set my mind at ease?”
Noooo --- not near redline most of the time. It’s not an oval, for heaven’s sake, it’s a road course. Lots of up and down through the rev range. Lots of braking, too. Rather like the daily commute, but easier on the machinery since there’s no shifting involved.
Let me tell you a story. You --- and your parents, especially --- might find this interesting.
There is a family in the Central Division of the SCCA who competes in autocrossing. They are so enamored of the experience that they head up a separate autocross club to provide local enthusiasts, and themselves, with even more track time opportunity. They use SCCA rules, and have large turnouts. Mom and dad are good. . . very quick. They are both SCCA National Championship trophy winners.
You should see their car. It’s a CP Mustang. It’s trailered in, of course; not street legal. It is shod with racing slicks, and goes around corners like a freakin’ slot car! It’s a beast. And it’s an automatic, too.
M. and I were talking to the mom, a gracious host of the SCCA event we attended last year, and she was telling us that she and her husband will not ALLOW their children to drive on the street unless they race. The kids gotta race! Or else!
That’s how safe it is.
And that’s how IMPORTANT it is.
Driver education in America is a pathetic joke.
But where CAN you learn to handle a car safely? The venue must be safe for others, for you, and for your expensive car. The streets are NOT the answer.
It’s a problem.
The answer is: autocross racing.
I share the aforementioned parents’ views about “requiring” their kids to autocross.
I contend that, not only will autocross experience not encourage reckless street driving, it will actively discourage it.
Young drivers such as yourself, Door, will quickly come to realize where the limits are; how long it can take to “gather it all back up again” having once lost it; how hard it can be to regain control at all once you’ve lost it; and how to “catch it” and regain control smoothly. It will teach you where the line is. And it will teach you to respect that line, and not cross over it.
You will learn to respect both the limits of the machine, as well as your own limits.
You will KNOW, unequivocally, where those limits are. And you will know how perilous it can be to dance on the edge.
And, I contend, you will stay away from that edge, well away, when pushing it a bit on the streets. We all push it a bit on the public roads. Especially youngsters.
The truly skilled driver “sees” clearly where that edge is, and steers clear of it. The unskilled are driving “blindfolded,” if you will, with no idea, not a clue, where the edge is, or how close they are.
Am I making any sense here, Door?
I contend that the majority of youngsters who “delete themselves” on the roads, had no idea they were that close to the edge. No idea at all. It was just fun to them and their friends in the car.
They just wanted to have fun. . . right up until they died.
Suddenly.
Unexpectedly.
I'll bet every last one of them died with a look of stunned surprise and disbelief on their faces.
The knowledge and skills gained in autocrossing will make EVERYONE a far more skilled and safer road driver.
What you learn in autocrossing could save your life someday, or better still --- save someone else’s life.
It’s the cheapest driving school you can attend.
It’s the best thing any Si driver can do to experience the best his Honda has to offer, at movie-ticket prices, and it’s entirely legal. And it’s not at all hard on your fine new machine.
Might be hard on your ego, though! <LOL!>
Like Nike says: Just do it. ;-)
But go watch first. . . to set your mind at ease. There’s no charge to watch, although you’ll probably be requested to sign a release form for insurance purposes while you're on the premises during the event.
Autocrossing is a responsible, respectable sport that I heartily endorse, and I encourage everyone to take their fine Honda Si’s (or any car) and take a shot at this fun and instructive challenge.
Question: Does anyone know how to reverse this procedure?
"With the wipers on, the brake pedel....well...pulsates...yeah I guess that's a good word for it."
I haven't had a chance to drive our Si in the rain since you posted this, but I did try running the wipers briefly with the washer. I didn't notice anything unusual with the brake pedal on ours. I'll try to remember to check it in the rain first chance I get.
Hey, this reminds me: Have you tried Rain-X? Remarkable product.
Door wrote:
"Then I turn off the wipers and it goes away. Viola."
Viola? You play the viola, too? I thought you played drums. ;-)
Sorry. . . <looking sheepish>
Does anyone know how to avoid this mess?
Or use a rag to collect the excess. Tuff to get all as filter is attached horizontal.
P.S thanks for asking the question with out writing a book:)
I haven't done the job on my Si yet. How is the chnage on the new one? And, where'd you get your filter?
P.S. I see your posts as gifts. TY.
Is there a dedicated web forum for the new Si?
Btw, have you tried using the Shopping Tools in our New Vehicle Pricing Guide? Select your model and trim level, then click on "continue" for a list of dealerships in your area. From there, you can use one form to let them know exactly what you're looking for.... Good luck, and Happy shopping!
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
We appreciate your shared information, however please be aware that our policy forbids promoting (or linking to) other auto websites that also provide message boards or chats.
For informational purposes, we do allow links to auto forums that do not provide message boards or chats. Okay?
I realize that some of you may not agree with this policy; please do not debate this issue with me here. I do not set policy here, nor can I change it. I am responsible for enforcing it, which is why I point this out.
Feel free to email me if you have any questions regarding this matter. You can also read what our Town Hall manager (Sylvia) has to say about this policy in our Ask the Town Hall Hosts discussion, (From Post #1383), and post your question/comments there.
And let's get back to the subject of this discussion. Thanks for your participation!
Revka
Host/Hatchbacks & Wagons
Also, please note: TMV pricing does not take into account Manufacturer-to-Consumer rebates. So be sure to check Edmunds' Incentives and Rebates section to see if there are any consumer discounts available in your area. You'll want to subtract that amount (if any) from the TMV value.
Others here may have more feedback to offer on current Civic Si pricing....
Now once you've done your research and determined how much you'd like to pay..., use our Shopping Tools to contact dealers in your area. And see who comes back with the best price. Hope this is helpful.
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
P.S. Still loving this car
If you remove the filler cap and drain the oil FIRST, then remove the filter, the spillage will be minimized.
These days I have it done by Oil Can Henry's for about $25.00. I have _never_ had an incident of the oil vacating the engine from an oil change. Having a piece of granite punch through the oil pan from crashing down a mountain road, however, DID relieve the engine of lubricant, and consequently killed the car (a 1960 Corvair).
From what the local Audi dealer told me, the Internet service managers upload the TMV pricing to Edmunds, so the TMV prices are whatever these guys feel like uploading. As far as I know, they do not reflect *actual* sales of vehicles, but rather what these dealers would like the public to think the cars sell for.
Invoice pricing: great. TMV: worthless.
“P.S. I see your posts as gifts. TY.”
And Door wrote:
“. . .I second rivers post script. Your posts are gifts: unique, informative, and caring. Thanks so much.”
--------------------------------
You guys. . .
I wanted to get a beer, but I couldn’t get out of the room to get to the kitchen. My head wouldn’t fit through the doorway!
Guess I’ll just sit a while and wait. . . until my head deflates.
With this generous and kind encouragement I’m moved to _really_ write something --- not these short missives I’ve contributed so far.
<Horrendous screech>
What was that awful noise?
Is that “Greenguy” lying on the floor over there?
What happened?
You say he’s not breathing?!
:-)
[ Mental Note: Send free, autographed, first-edition copies of the soon-to-be-published “Collected Essays of Kauai215” to River and Door with special inscriptions of gratitude to each! ]
“I would like the moderator to clarify that it is up to the dealer to upload the pricing. What motivation could they have not to inflate the figures?”
Muffin?
What are you doing here?
Are you going after our gracious host, Revka?
I think that this young lady, Revka, is doing a splendid job, making this a fine place for civilized people to converse in peace and harmony about their Honda Si’s.
Don’t you think so, too, Muffin? :-)
What was that awful noise?
Is that “Greenguy” lying on the floor over there?
What happened?
You say he’s not breathing?!
:-)
__________________________________________________
No, I'm O.K, It's just a flesh wound. as long as you dont back up and try again;>
Back on topic:
I will change my own oil on my next due date. I had the dealer do the last 4 changes. I have 12.5k mi and have had the oil changed every 3k.
I will put mobil-1 0w-20 in when it gets released and use honda filters. Then my change intervol<-(sp?) will be every 5-6k.
Car has been running very well.
Installed my AEM CAI last weekend. The butt dyno definatley shows an improvement. Sound get knarley at 5000rpm. Wife likes it also.
To kauai215- Thanks for the kind words. Only problem is if you keep talking like that..., people will think I hired you to hang out here. ;-) Btw, just curious how many miles are on your Civic Si now?
To muffin_man- Regarding TMV- Edmunds uses a number of checks/balances to help maintain the integrity of their True Market Value pricing. Not to mention, many of the inputs are also from buyers.
Also, as I mentioned above, TMV is not the lowest price paid; it's an average (regional) cost over a given period of time. Pricing will vary from city to city... depending on local market availability and demand.
This is one of the reasons, I usually recommend aiming below the TMV value. My own approach: if I see the dealer has a lot of vehicles on his lot, I'll aim for invoice minus any incentives. Now if the dealer/s won't budge beyond a certain point, then knowing the TMV... helps me to understand what's going on.
Others here may have more to add on negotiating for a Civic Si....
To 944 - Post #2115 Civic Si pricing & TMV. No offense taken. I've also come across a number of members here that say our TMV is right on target, as well as some comments that the TMV pricing is too low. For example, read this post Post #7867 from another discussion. (Another Seattle resident, btw)
To get back to the subject: I plugged in a 2003 Civic Si, along with a Seattle zip code, into Edmunds' TMV pricing tools and the quote was $17, 808, before the 460 destination fee. Seems pretty close to the $17,822 quote you were recently offered (post #2015.)
In closing, perhaps people here can offer muffin_man feedback regarding Civic Si's pricing in their area. Thanks for your participation!
PS: I just edited this post for price corrections.
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
On my A4 I was able to get close to double the TMV discount listed.
The TMV information is OK as a starting point, and for lazy people that don't want to research and haggle I suppose it's better than nothing, but it certainly doesn't represent the bottom line on what any particular dealer will sell a car for when push comes to shove.
Actually, I think it's the dealers that evidently like TMV because they can point to it and say, "See, this car should sell for this amount here."
Edmunds has great car information for potential buyers so don't think I'm bashing Edmunds on this. Their TMVs are only as good as the information they receive.
Beyond necessity lies desire, however, and you may want to upgrade. But here, as I’ve suggested, you then need to consider what class you’re going to go into. We can talk more about that if you decide to pursue that. Actually, I was hoping you might learn just what might be optimal and share it with the rest of us.
Your friend’s auto tranny Mustang should be just fine. Remember the C Prepared Mustang I was describing? Theirs is an automatic, too, so I wouldn’t think your friend would be at any disadvantage.
I’m looking forward to hearing about the event you go to watch and what you think about it all.
“I used to do all my own oil changes on my Hondas until just recently. I think one of the influences to stop was getting AARP mail.”
<LOL!>
Ain’t it the truth, though? ;-)
Despite draining the system as you’ve described, my Honda’s oil filters always seem to retain just enough oil to make a good mess when I unscrew them. This new engine has the filter even more recessed than previous ones. Maybe I’ll try packing a ton of paper towels underneath it next time.
Thanks for the tips.
A Corvair, huh? I’ll bet that taught you to handle oversteer! :-)
“I haven't done the job on my Si yet. How is the chnage on the new one? And, where'd you get your filter?”
The filter position is even more remote than on previous Civics. You can reach it (obviously), but it’s the most awkward one to change yet.
I recently purchased a filter cap wrench, one of the ones that fit completely around the base of the filter like a cup. In the center is a square fitting for a 3/8” drive wrench. I’m not sure it would be possible to remove this filter with a conventional strap-type filter wrench. I bought my cap-type removal tool at Wal-Mart for a few bucks.
If you don’t have a flex-head ratchet to attach to the filter wrench, you might encounter a problem. My setup just fit; I was lucky here. One of these days I may get a flex-head ratchet, but I work on fewer and fewer things these days. The cars just don’t need much of anything, fortunately.
I could not find any filters that would fit this car initially, so I bought five Honda filters at my dealer when they had a sale. Final cost, as I recall, was $4 apiece. Since the Frams are just about as much these days, I’d rather go with the Honda filters.
“To kauai215- Thanks for the kind words. Only problem is if you keep talking like that..., people will think I hired you to hang out here. ;-)”
Well, since you brought it up . . . how does a fellow get a raise around here? Our original agreement was that I was to be paid by the word for my posts at 7.5 cents per word.
I think I’ve done an excellent job so far, don’t you? So, whaddaya say to 10 cents per word, Revka? ;-)
And you wrote:
“Btw, just curious how many miles are on your Civic Si now?”
We’ve got a little over 11,000 miles on our ’02 Si now. We’ve averaged 26.77 mpg so far. This is our fifth Civic, and it is proving to be every bit as reliable as it’s predecessors. Hopefully, it will keep up the sterling record of the others.
Some thoughts on TMV values: I would think it would be better if these numbers were a bit too high, rather than too low. If the numbers are too low, there might be a lot of angry buyers out there grimly trying to get what cannot be had. That would not help anyone, buyers or sellers.
I would expect that the readers and contributors in groups such as this one are not at all representative of the car-buying population as a whole. This group is almost certainly far more savvy and skilled, and able to negotiate significantly better deals when purchasing a new car than the average buyer.
It’s all the unskilled buyers out there who are “dragging” the averages upwards. In the end, that’s probably good for _us_.
When we bought our ’02 Si shortly after its release in the USA, we were told by the sales manager that the guy who just picked up his new Si as we were arriving had paid full MSRP. We didn’t, but I can believe the other guy did. It was still very early in the game yet, and the Si hadn’t become the sales “problem” that it now appears to be. Thank goodness I spotted some subtle signs, though, and was able to negotiate a good deal. Absent my alertness, I might have heedlessly paid full MSRP myself, mistakenly thinking that this new Si would be just as much in demand as the ’99 when it first arrived. In ’99 one had to look far and wide to find any dealer to sell an Si at mere MSRP. They were all “packed” and expensive --- far over original MSRP. One dealer had one for something around $23K! It was nuts.
Revka, if it isn’t too intrusive to ask, what are you driving these days?
And Revka, thanks again for the fine job you do here of maintaining Law & Order. Yours are agreeable groups to read and participate in. ;-)