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Honda Civic Si / SiR 2005 and earlier



  • ranaldranald Posts: 147
    OK, I've defended the new Civic's from what I see as unfair and unjustified criticism enough.

    I think the car is a letdown as well, for the following reasons: (the first 2 are concrete, the next 2 are personal taste)

    -the odd-behaving and sometimes unpleasant rear suspension

    -the failure to increase power. Non-Si Civics have been stuck at a max of 127hp for 10 years now. The world has moved on, the Civic has not. (what power the Civic does have seems to be smoother, cleaner, quieter than everyone else, but still)

    -unpleasant styling, on both the sedan and coupe. The 6th gen looked classy, the sedan was an attractive mini-Accord and the coupe looked more upscale than it was. The 7th gen is awkward, the sedan is unpleasant front, rear and sides while the unbalanced overhangs on the coupe make it look like a schoolbus.

    -tacky, pretentious interior. The interior of the 6th gen is plastic, but it's good quality plastic that fits well and looks nice, nicer even than Camry's, Maxima's and Pathfinder's I've had to sit in. The 7th gen commits the sin of trying to not look like plastic- it uses IMO the worst interior material in the world, chrome-colored hard plastic. (I pity folks who buy the "titanium-look trim" interior piece option for the Civic-derived RSX. They pay a large premium to make their car look cheap and tacky.)
  • C&D did mention poor fit and finish on the Civic. "We thought the panel gaps were rather wide, too, and certain details of the dash fit poorly," and "Way too many rattles, way too many shades of metallic in the paint." I tend to agree. I can tell on my Si that the doors are a slightly darker shade of silver than the rest of the car.

    I also had to have the dealer fix the driver door because it had a big gap between the top of the door and the roof of the car. Easily fixed, but still...
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    But the power is an iffy subject if you ask me. How much power is necessary? I think the hp war is getting out of hand. 127 hp is just fine for an econocar. Camrys had barely 10 hp more until last year and it was a family sedan. I mean a 4 cylinder Accord made due with 145, couldn't a car in the Civic's class make due with 125? It's all marketing. The car isn't a sports sedan.
  • ranaldranald Posts: 147
    The biggest problem is that each of the past 2 redesigns have added weight but the power has stayed the same.

    A lesser problem is that all the competition has added power. The lowest-trim Corolla now has more power (as well as torque and displacement) than the Civic EX. Where the Civic used to be one of the most powerful economy cars, now it is one of the least.

    Put the two together and it looks like Honda just isn't trying very hard, that they've given up on a significant part of what made the Civic the best economy car - the "fun to drive" element.

    I don't think you can ever safely say "that's as good as this segment will ever need". Engineering is always getting better, cars are getting better and if you stand still someone will sell a better, cheaper car than you and eat your lunch. You start thinking "an economy car doesn't need more than 127hp" and you've become mid-80's GM or mid-90's Nissan- "We don't need to improve our cars, we just need to make 'em cheaper" is *not* a viable strategy. Honda rose to prominance in the 80's by making *better* (with very competitive hp #'s) cars, not by making adequate cars, and the Civic is no longer trying to be better it's trying to be adequately good.

    That's why I think the lack of power in the Civic is a definite mistake.
  • The 01 Civic LX sedan gained 10 lbs over a 2000 if Edmunds is right. The EX coupe gained 90 lbs. Not a huge weight gain when you consider that the 01 LX gained almost 10HP and the EX Coupe gained 7 lb ft of torque. The Corolla only puts out 130HP, the Protege only puts out 130HP, the Elantra puts out 14...err I mean 134 or so, the Lancer puts out 120HP, the Focus has 130HP. I agree that cars are becoming a HP war and it's really unnecessary in this class.

    I agree the Civic could be alot more than what it is. But as it is it is still better than most economy cars in most of the areas that most shoppers want. It is a very safe, historically very reliable, very efficient car that will get you to work and back for years to come with barely a sniffle.
  • ranaldranald Posts: 147
    It's true, I also think the Civic is a good car. But it's still a disappointment. The current Civic doesn't compare to it's competition anywhere near as well as my Civic did when I bought it.

    As for those hp figures, it's worth remembering that the *best*, most expensive (non Si) Civic puts out 127hp. Other trim levels have less.

    And enough is what buyers decide is enough, not what some arbitrary outside observer says is enough. That smacks of Naderism. I'm sure there are people somewhere who think 80hp and a 3 speed auto (like my first car, *shudder*) is more than enough for cars.
  • himilerhimiler Posts: 1,209
    Without a doubt, the Si is the pick of the Civic litter. Unfortunately, the fact that it sells like sand at the beach is further indication of where Honda has taken the Civic in the marketplace, and who the typical Civic buyer is today.

    Honda needs to put the Si engine into the Civic sedan and go SE-R/MP3 hunting.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    Like Ranald said...The buyers decide. And right now the Civic has more of them than anyone. What I think happened is that the Civic used to be a nice commuter car that could be made much more. Now it's a good commuter car. Period. Time will tell if used Civics will be the hot commodity they have been in the past. I feel they are going to lose the "magic" over time. But who knows.
  • 204meca204meca Posts: 366
    I found a 2002 Si that was a dealer demo, it has 5000 miles on the odometer. Internet Salesgal offered it at $17,300. I countered saying she needs to do a lot better since people on Edmunds indicate they are getting brand new ones for that price.

    Unfortunately I can't seem to find a price for a used 2002 yet. What is appropriate for this one?I am thinking is should go for less than $16K. Of course then I might have trouble getting top dollar trade in for my 97 Del Sol.
  • Not sure where you are located. But the price they offered you was absurd. I would be willing to bet you could get it from them for $15,000 or less.

    Do not pay that much unless you _must_ have the car and have truly exhuasted all other options.
  • hamproofhamproof Posts: 241
    Definitely $15k or less. They'll have a hard time moving the car. New 02 SIs are selling for $16k. Now one with 5000 miles, forget it. They'll have to do better than that.

    W/ the trade in, chances are you'll be screwed. They'll give you thousands less than what you'll get if you sell the Del Sol privately. That's expected since you forgo the trouble of selling the car yourself. But how many thousands are you willing to loose for that convenience? I suggest you check the trade in value (yes trade-in not private or retail) for your car on Edmunds. The prepare to loose about 20% more on the trade. Less is better. Anything more than that you are getting screwed.
  • hamproofhamproof Posts: 241
    *someone said*

    The Corolla only puts out 130HP, the Protege only puts out 130HP, the Elantra puts out 14...err I mean 134 or so, the Lancer puts out 120HP, the Focus has 130HP.


    If this doesn't show someone is bias towards Honda, I don't know what does. If Corolla, Protege, Elantra and Focus ONLY (emphasis on ONLY) puts put 130HP, I wonder what would be categorize the LX Honda putting out a whopping 115HP and the EX putting out another biggie size me whopping 127HP. Mind you, that's 13% gain the competitors have over the LX. How much money do we spend to get even a 10% gain? Not to mention w/ the exception of the Corolla, the other cars are cheaper than the LX and far cheaper than the EX.

    All Honda are good for is their long time reputation for quality. Whether that's the case now, we won't know till the time comes for 02/03 owners selling their car in 05/06??

    It is shocking to see what a used 98/99/00 Civic sells for at dealership. Some even asking for close to brand new car prices. Will this be true 4 years down the line? Only time can tell. If the Proteges, Sentras, Elantras, Focis hold up good, it'll be the end of Honda high resale value.
  • crikeycrikey Posts: 1,038
    I found a 2002 Si that was a dealer demo, it has 5000 miles on the odometer. Internet Salesgal offered it at $17,300.

    And I thought my dealer was trying to screw me by offering a brand-new one with less than 10 miles for $16,999. I know I could get better, though.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    In the Honda Si room...God forbid. Really 115 HP is fine. Older DX's had 96-106 HP. They sold like hotcakes. Everyone isn't out to do 0-60 runs. Many people care more about starting every morning and humming to work at 55 mph. Heck the Insight has less than 90 hp and Edmunds kept getting tickets. Camrys had 115 hp up til 1991 and the 626 4 cyl only made 125 hp until recently. It's just a advertising numbers game. A majority of actual consumers don't even know what grade oil goes in their car let alone how many hp, torque, or even number of valves thier car has. That's why the 5 speed xmission is dying in this country cause no one cares.
  • I bought one two month today. Been at the dealer 3 times and, the problem is not fix yet yes, the eng. is loud lot of road noise and when it rain louder. It is a very elegant good looking car but I do not think the car is worth 17,000 it should be around or between 13,500 and 16,500. oh did i mention it came with a tape player (cd is an option).
    Greetings from sunny Miami.
  • Thanks for the A\C tip, I'll try it out tomorrow. Been away for a while, girl friend keeps me on the road. Tried my Si out (alone this time) on the autobahn between Darmstadt & Frankfurt. It does 130 MPH (210 KM) right before redline. Went 2-3 miles at this speed, was enough (I'm 45, not 25). Didn't really notice the VTEC coming in.
    Yeah, the 5 yr old slides his feet over the plastic getting into the back, with gravel imbeded in his shoes. Thinking about tying him on the top. At least there's no more barfing...
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    Doesn't slam like the older ones. Here's a Dyno run

    It's pretty level compared to other vtec engines.

    I hope you didn't pay 17000 for an LX coupe. Wow.

  • No way, I paid 16,200 out-the-door including the mug guard,carpet $200 in fuel cards and the rear wind.
    Greetings from sunny Miami.
  • $16,200 out the door is far from $17,000.

    I'll admit I am biased towards Honda. Every Honda I have owned (knock on wood) has been trouble-free, fun-to-drive, and has gotten great gas mileage compared to comparable offerings. And I'm sure this SI will do the same .. at least until I can get my hands on one of those EX V6 6-speed Accord Coupes :)
  • hamproofhamproof Posts: 241
    I'm actually close to selling my A4. Found a buyer. How easy is it to hardwire a V1 to the 02 SI? On the A4, there was an unused fuse that I connected the V1 to.

    Anyway, a few months ago I actually *fake* a post saying I bought a urine yellow SI to replace a POS Escort I drove. Well, for kicks anyway since I was very annoyed at *someone*. Someone claimed she sold her 00 SI for more money than she paid for and she actually got her 02 SI for like $14k.

    So, I'm in the market for real now this time looking to buy an 02 SI. Just got to decide on white or silver :) Maybe 03 if it is the same price.

    Oh.. btw, I claimed I sold the Escort and made $4k profit. So, the supposedly 02 SI I bought cost me ony $12k.

    Yeah, very juvenile for a 30year old guy with way too much time on hand.
This discussion has been closed.