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Best Hot Hatch - SVT, Civic Si, GTI, RSX, Mini, Beetle...

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  • revkarevka Posts: 1,750
    In accordance with our Town HallMember Agreement, let's please use civil/friendly debate to discuss our different opinions..., and please avoid name calling of any kind. Don't want to have to use that delete button. Okay?


    And now back to the subject of the Best Hot Hatch! Thanks for your participation.


    Revka

    Host

    Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards

  • About the same time of Jimmy Carter....there was a fuel shortage. Americans were all driving large four doors. A country called Japan introduced several fuel economical vehicles Civic, Celica stuff like that. They allowed someone to have a 2 door car with four seats but very little if any trunk. Instead a true trunk they would have a door that opened up more like a hatch and the seats would fold back to make a trunk out of the back seats. The HatchBack was born. Now every car does this exact same thing even many sedans unless they are just so gigantically big you could fit a house in the truck....and even some of them will have at least a well to stick skis through or something. But Hatchback back then meant cheap, inexpensive.... Essentially the hatchback idea has woven into general virtually every car in some form of another.

    The same is now true with the SUV truck hybrid. Are these SUV's with a small truck bed or are they "extended" cab trucks?

    I have no real problem with the idea of a hatchback but once the 4 door hatchback came and then the sport hatchback came...and then sedans took on some hatchback features, it sorta is a "worthless" term as this point....it means really virtually nothing.

    These vehicle classifications are soon to come to an end. Take the PT cruiser...what is it a van, a sedan, a hatchback....
  • I just think people should try something before they say its bad. Too many "across the stree" drivers were bashing the mini.

    I thought the Mini was stupid too. Yeh, I'm an older guy and a thought this is a kids car...maybe it is. And, who in the right mind would own such a small, potential dangerous car. I test drove based upon a friends recommendation based upon what I told them I was looking for.

    My mind was changed within my 5 minute test drive. The MINI is fast...in most cases at least as fast as most of the cars listed and in many cases faster. Its tight, stock out of the factory, the sport suspension and front and real anti-roll stabilizer balls, bull dog stance, ASC and DSC make this car literally stick to the corners like glue or to drive you out of trouble. I'm sorry, but these are advanced BMW computer electronics and basic physics about the design of the car that can only be duplicated by building a car of similar small square shape. The car is as wide as most cars just not nearly as long. And, then its got gobs and gobs of BMW standard things in there.

    It doesn't matter in the end, every person prefers a different car....that's why there are so many different cars. I'm either getting this car or a porsche.....I figure I would start with this one and then get a porsche when I get older. ;) If you don't want to draw attention to yourself, then this is not the car for you. And, there is nothing wrong with that and that's ok. But, you should just own up to that and say I want a car like everyone else and I want to stay away from fad cars cause I don't want to look foolish driving a car that's not a fad anymore. Who cares if the PT cruiser or VW bug II was a fad, I bet the people who own these cars still like their cars despite any fad ending anyway. You buy things that make you feel good and if buying a fad car makes you feel good for even one year....DO IT. We all do eventually die...
  • You seem to have a real burning desire to defend your decision here and you do so by taking veiled shots at the rest of the cars in this comparison (I think we all now know that the Mini is the only car here that has the engineering genius of Bavaria in its corner).

    What confuses me is your apparent need to belittle the other cars in this test in order to bolster your own decision. I test-drove three of the six mentioned here (Celica, Tibby and the RSX-S) and came away from all of those test-drives highly impressed. My decision ultimately came down to "which of these excellent cars has the edge?" rather than "which of these doesn't suck?"

    I liked the idea of the Mini S, but didn't want to buy one without first driving it, which seems to be the going arrangement for those cars around here.

    If you're happy with your decision, leave it at that. Otherwise we may start to think you have buyers remorse.

    BTW, don't challenge me at a stop sign, because I will blow your doors clean off...
  • huntzingerhuntzinger Posts: 350
    About the same time of Jimmy Carter....there was a fuel shortage.

    Bonus points if you know (or remember :-) what criteria was used for rationing what days you were allowed to take your car to the gas station.

    Americans were all driving large four doors. A country called Japan introduced several fuel economical vehicles...The HatchBack was born....But Hatchback back then meant cheap, inexpensive....

    Good points all. In fairness, the early Japanese cars WERE cheap and inexpensive. They had thin sheet metal, often not galvanized, that would rust out quickly. They had vinyl covered seats that would get brittle & crack in the winter. A few, such as the 1971 Subaru FF-1G, even came with (gasp) tubed - not tubeless - tires.

    Since those days, things have changed a lot. The quality and reliability of Japanese cars are but one example. But for some reason, the hatchback as a design type has retained a stigma of being ugly and cheap, instead of as a really pretty smart (perhaps elegant?) design of efficiency of form.

    The "Hot Hatch" subclass started with the VW Rabbit GTI (1981?). One thing that does seem to be synonymous with the class is that they tend to be FWD, for otherwise, we technically need to include GM's F-Body twins - Firebird & Camaro.

    For those reading here and considering something in this class, the question to ask is - why aren't the F-Bodies really considered part of this class? What is the defining difference?

    -hh
  • For some reason never make the comparisions when they are usually the FASTEST cars (Brute force fast albeit) in the class....

    I travel constantly and get to drive tons of cars and have driven virtually every make (not every model though). I have also owned Mitsubishi, Hyundai, Toyota, Honda and Mazda and of this list I would vote for the order as follows based upon my preferences:

    (1) Mini (I like if for so many reasons)
    (2) Celica ( Toyota cars last forever, there is Toyota and then there is everyone else..you'll never go wrong with a Toyota)
    (3) RSX (This car looks nice)
    (4) GTI (VW gives you a solid, comfy well designed feel)
    (5) CIVIC (I just hate Hondas...I think they pale compared to Toyota...Every Honda I have had parts have fallen off)
    (6) Tiburon (Well Hyundai has little resale value. They are a good value if you buy new. I don't like the look of this car though)
    SVT..I don't know this car....
  • As if you needed another cause for additional squabbling, here it is. Problem is that the author drove 3 different Focii and all 3 had different-feeling gearboxes. Granted, it's a custom SVT model and not really comparable with the factory-spec hatches talked about here ... but quality is definitely not its highpoint.

    Personally, I hate the Focus because of its looks and quality, but it does target this segment.

    I've seen the Mini a lot on Manhattan streets, and it's eye-catching (now, anyway), but it is SMALL! How are its crash test ratings?

    I've seen a few Civic Si's too - tight car! Eye-catching as well, in the Honda idiom.
  • That's funny...


    I'm done squabbling...I done made my point.

    However, I was thinking about the cars huntzinger listed, Firebird, Camaro which Edmunds list as a sports hatchback....They also list the corvette but I think the price puts it way out of this class.


    Crash Tests....who buys a sports coupe based on a crash test? Sounds like getting married with a "Pre-Nump" I think BWM is known for safety though, the mini has 6 air bags you know. US NHST must buy the vehicle "stock" from a dealer as a blind purchase and because of the backorder, I think they are still waiting.... ;) But in European crash tests, it did OK/Fair, it got 4/5 stars on the listing See here. http://www.euroncap.com/ratings.php3?id=superminis&order=1

    But you can never be too safe....

  • gotenks243gotenks243 Posts: 116
    "Instead a true trunk they would have a door that opened up more like a hatch and the seats would fold back to make a trunk out of the back seats. The HatchBack was born. Now every car does this exact same thing even many sedans unless they are just so gigantically big you could fit a house in the truck....and even some of them will have at least a well to stick skis through or something"

    Folding rear seats does not a hatch make. Sure "every car" (almost) may have folding seats nowadays, but are you seriously trying to say that a (2003) Camry is a hatchback? If it has a trunk it isn't a hatch.

    "(3) RSX (This car looks nice)
    5) CIVIC (I just hate Hondas...I think they pale compared to Toyota...Every Honda I have had parts have fallen off)"

    You do that Acura is merely a Honda sold at a different dealership (outside-of-Japan only), don't you? There isn't that much difference between an RSX and a Civic Si except for exterior/interior design.

    Mike
  • Yeh I was thinking of the NSX...hehehe...sorry


    Folding rear seats does not a hatch make. Sure "every car" (almost) may have folding seats nowadays, but are you seriously trying to say that a (2003) Camry is a hatchback? If it has a trunk it isn't a hatch.


    I'm not saying anything...


    I was going my Edmunds list of what is a hatchback...http://edmunds.com/new/type/hatchback/all.html


    Now, I think you are starting to understand what I'm saying. Go here....


    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2002/chevrolet/camaro/z282drhatchback57l8cyl4a/prices.html


    Its in the hatchback category and called a hatchback. I think the hatchback category was extended a long time ago to include cars with tiny trunks that look more like a hatch. You can virtually put all sports cars in the hatchback category especially once camaro, corvette, and others are sitting in there.

  • rickroverrickrover Posts: 602
    I leave for a couple of days and miss all the fun.

    I don't consider a Camaro a hatchback class of car. Sure it has a hatch, but in the classic sense of the term a hatchback is a small car with a rear hatch. I'd say the term hatchback started back in the early 70's (Pinto, Civic, various Toyotas) and the Hot Hatch term started with the first GTI in 83 and included various Toyota's and Honda's of the day. I've also heard this class of car refered to as pocket rockets. When I hear the term hatchback I and I believe most people think of a small car with a rear hatch. Hot Hatch most definately refers to the GTI, Civic, RSX, Tiburon, MINI class of car. No one I know of would refer to a Saab or Camaro as hatchback even if it has one.
  • You did check out those hyperlinks and see this right?


    2002 Chevrolet Camaro Sport Hatchback

    Z28 2dr Hatchback (5.7L 8cyl 4A)


    Also, their trunk is a hatch (although the exact definition of that eludes me)

    http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/159741.jpg


    How come a Camaro listed as a hatchback by Edmunds and the manufacturer and with a hatchback is not a hatchback but the Mini is? The Camero is "not" a big car, its a 2 door, mainly 2 seater with a fold back rear seat and a hatch. How do you justify kicking it out of the Hatchback category?

  • What about notchbacks?!?! The Saab "5-Door" is a notchback, but technically a hatchback in function, a notchback in look.
  • If you drive a two-door car and your rear windshield moves with your trunk lid, congratulations, you own a hatchback.
  • If you drive a two-door car and your rear windshield moves with your trunk lid, congratulations, you own a hatchback.
    ---
    I like that simple definition. That makes the Camaro a Hatchback. Of course, my Mitsubishi Montero Sport SUV is also a Hatchback. ;)
  • I like that simple definition. That makes the Camaro a Hatchback. Of course, my Mitsubishi Montero Sport SUV is also a Hatchback. ;)
    --
    Oh wait, that has 4 doors so it is disqualified from the hatchback class....but the Camaro is clearly a hatchback then.
  • I like that simple definition. That makes the Camaro a Hatchback. Of course, my Mitsubishi Montero Sport SUV is also a Hatchback. ;)
    --
    Oh wait, that has 4 doors so it is disqualified from the hatchback class....but the Camaro is clearly a hatchback then.


    What about the Explorer Sport with the two doors then? Is that a hatchback?
  • I think my definition holds more water:

    If the hatch door is at more than a 45 degree angle from the horizontal, it is a hatchback.

    If less than 45 degress, it is a fastback.

    If the car has ground clearance over 6", it is a cross-over or SUV.

    If the thing has a hatch and is intentionally made to look like a sedan, it is a notchback.

    Then:

    The Camaro is a fastback.

    The Civic Si and Mini are hatchbacks.

    The Explorer Sport is an SUV.

    The Saab 9-5 is a notchback.

    Haha. Problem solved.

    Except with the Beetle or AMC Pacer. I think it is at a 45 degree angle or close to it. Like i before e except after c, always an exception.
  • Until the next car comes out....

    I think I'm going to have to go find my protractor and check some of these angles. ;)
  • bpraxisbpraxis Posts: 292
    Hello everyone and I hope that you are having a great day. As an owner of a Celica for almost three years let me sumerize the reasons to buy this car:

    1. Toyota Quality

    2. Toyota Resale Value

    3. Most fun to drive according to all the car mags.

    4. Exotic car styling at a bargain price.

    5. Great gas milage, 36 MPG on the highway.

    6. Design by Calty Design Studio

    7. 60,000 mile powertrain warranty

    Honorable metion to the

    RSX: Honda quality with a great warranty, nice interior.

    Hundai: nice styling but the resale value is poor.

    Mini. Fun retro style but it is a foot shorter that the Miata.

    Cheers
This discussion has been closed.