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Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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Comments

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,682
    Yeah, right. Like I'm supposed to bow down to somebody who overly praises a Toyota Echo. Major, I'm not going to memorize a bunch of stats from the automotive "experts" or copy them down from articles from all over the place to try to prove my point. No need. I've found a car manufacturer that makes a great looking, quality car at a low price. Oh, that's right. You're busy finding trash on Hyundai-ooops I suppose it's just Kia that you hate. Sorry to bother you. If that Echo ever gets that lasagne uncorked please have the decency to not dump it on public land. There's enough Honda and Toyota quality all over the place as it is. I'll let you borrow my sledgehammer for free, though. No charge-that's just the kind of guy I am.

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • badtoybadtoy Posts: 368
    the only thing you find to criticize about Toyotas and Hondas is the styling -- which is an entirely personal matter anyway. There's more to a car than the sheetmetal, guys -- and I'm perfectly willing to concede the point that the Echo is a homely little mutha. But if that's all you can say bad about it, I think the rest of us will stick to a proven quantity until time and experience prove us wrong.

    In the meantime, enjoy your cars -- just try not to be so defensive and shrill about them, because it gives us the distinct impression that you're just trying to convince yourselves. You certainly haven't convinced us.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    Where have I said that I hate any car company? I do not hate Kia, Hyundai, or Daewoo.

    The problem I have is that people are running around claiming that cars from these companies are so great and so much better than anything put out by the Japanese or anyone else.

    The facts, which you conveniently pooh pooh, show otherwise.

    Yes, the vehicles from these three makers cost less, but that does not mean they are a better overall value.

    A word of advice. If you are using your insults trying to get a negative reaction from me, save your fingers. It is a waste of time.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    My 2001 Echo has not had one recall. Not one. Iluv, can you say the same about your 1999 Sephia?
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,682
    and not hide them. I'm just stating a point that nothing in my Kia experience or my treatment from my dealer or Kia themselves has caused me alarm. I'm not saying Kia's or Hyundai's are the best cars in the world. What I am saying is that they've produced a nice solidly-built car for a very affordable price. The warranty ain't bad, either. The looks can't be beat. No kidding. I like the Sephia's looks over ANY car on the road. That includes the whole snotty circus you can find out there. I like that. I like the looks of my Sephia with it's Yokohama's and Konig's. I saw another one at the store tonight that's the same color but with another brand of wheel on it. Looked great. Across the way sat a Hyundai Santa Fe. Looked fantastic. What I'm saying is that all you "it's got to be Japanese or it don't shine" types are real dim-witted about Hyundai's and Kia's. Just because some stupid magazine like Car and Dribbler prints a bunch of paid-off drivel putting down Kia you believe it? Think for yourselves. Oh well, I'll just sit back, enjoy my Sephia and continue to enjoy Hyundai and Kia's sales success as it climbs up. Continue to dig your bland looking overpriced Japanese vehicles. It's your choice.

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    Would you care to give us proof as to what problems (that have been hidden) you are talking about? Are you talking about Mitsu? That is true that they hid problems, but my car is from Toyota. What problems do you say Toyota has hidden?

    I am not saying that the Japanese cars are the best in the world. I am just saying that Japanese cars in general are better than Daewoo, Hyundai, or Kia.

    You say, "they've produced a nice, solidly-built car for a very affordable price." You know what? That is the same way I feel about my Echo.

    You also say, "the warranty ain't bad, either." I believe you said that you bought your vehicle before the 10 year/100,000 mile power train went into effect. If so, you must agree with me that Toyota does not have a bad warranty either. I feel very confident that I will need to use my warranty less than you will. I also feel confident that I will have less non-routine work done out of warranty than Kia owners with a longer warranty will have done within the warranty.

    Here you go again with the insults. You say,"all you "it's got to be Japanese or it don't shine types" are real dim-witted about Hyundai's [sic] and Kia's [sic]. Just because some stupid magazine like Car and Dribbler prints a bunch of paid-off drivel putting down Kia you believe it. Think for yourselves."

    You might want to brush up on libel laws because you just libeled Car and Driver unless you can prove that they are paid off.

    I don't really trust Car and Driver's opinions about cars, but I use them as a source for performance data along with some other sources.

    I have two facts that prove Car and Driver is not paid off.

    For what is worth, they have not been that complementary toward the Echo. Not that I agree with them. If they had been paid off, they would have heaped praise on the Echo.

    The second fact is that they did a review of the Rio. If they had been paid off, as you allege, they would have savaged the car. They did point out the car's faults, but in the final analysis, the verdict was that the Rio was "a decent ride."

    I guess in your mind, good review for a Korean car means independent source and bad review for a Korean car means paid off hack?

    Yes, I think for myself. I take information from many different sources (including my own personal observations) before coming to a decision.

    Finally, you say, "the looks can't be beat." Well, that is the way I feel about my Echo. Yes, there are some styling points I would change about it, but overall I think it is the best looking car on the road today. Definitely not bland.

    One more thing. I challenge you to find any post of mine where I say that I hate the looks of any of the Korean offerings. You won't be able to do it. I stay away from things like style generally because they are subjective. My posts deal mainly with things like skid pad numbers, 0 to 60 times, initial quality surveys, and satisfaction surveys. I feel these are more objective. Yes, I do bring up issues of comfort and value, but I am trying to give a well rounded view. When I am posting in my comparison discussion about the Echo versus other cars and another car beats the Echo in some measure, I will let people know. It is just the kind of guy I am.

    Care to try to answer the fact that Sephia owners reported 250 initial quality problems in the most recent J.D. Powers survey?

    Care to try to answer the fact that Echo owners were more satisfied with their vehicle than Sephia owners were with their vehicle in the most recent Auto Pacific Vehicle Satisfaction Survey?

    Care to try to answer that without using insults or bringing up style?
  • jstandeferjstandefer Posts: 805
    Since I guess the Kia Sephia is SO much better than any Japanese car... would you care to enlighten me on how it bests my Protege ES?

    I'm sorry, but the Koreans are still attempting to catch up to the Japanese, not the other way around! It seems to me that in most comparison tests, the Korean cars fall way behind the Japanese vehicles. I'm not saying they're unreliable or have poor quality... I'm just saying that they still don't match the standards set by the Japanese and their refinement is still way off.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    I am sure that in the final analysis, Iluv will say that his Sephia is better than your Protege ES because your car is so bland and his is so stylish. ; )
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    A few posts ago, I asked Iluv to explain about the fact that the Sephia was reported to have 250 initial quality issues. I need to make a correction. The Rio is the one with 250 initial quality issues. The Sephia actually has 255 issues. This according to the most recent J.D. Powers survey.
  • jstandeferjstandefer Posts: 805
    Amen!

    That VW Passat is looking mighty nice! Drove one last year and came away absolutely impressed!! But you are right... That Passat I was looking at was only the GLS model (GLX being top) and it was already rapidly approaching $30k!!!
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    When I post about vehicles, I don't feel that I am criticizing a person's choice of cars. I am merely responding to posts where someone makes a claim. I am merely posting facts in most cases. In other cases where I use vehicle satisfaction surveys, I am pointing out the opinions of actual owners.

    To me criticizing someone's choice in cars is where you talk about how the car looks overall and that I leave to the other guy.
  • mpgmanmpgman Posts: 723
    I'd feel a lot better about magazines like C&D if just once they came out and said....Sorry...we are not impressed enough with anything....There in no Car of the Year this year. Of course, no one would buy the magazine then...and that is the point about magazines like C&D. Read them for fun, not for the absolute truths. Too much reliance on the advertising dollar and the like.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    A person also needs to understand that Car and Driver is more impressed with cost. A lot of times it seems like the high end cars get more respect from them.

    As an enthusiast of low end cars, I think that is a shame.
  • bluffhousebluffhouse Posts: 33
    The little Echo probably cost almost what my Leganza cost. The Lexus RX300 cost almost twice the Santa Fe. Camry's reach past the price of the XG300. What happened to inexpensive transportion from Japan? I was personally screwed by Toyota on my Celica. I know their qualiy has improved, but their customer service lacks big time. Most likely, you will get excellent service from your toy. The problem occurs when you get the piece of bacon on the side that's all messed up. This happens to all cars. With Saturn they'll ofer you a new car, Daewoo will go BK helping you, Hyundai provides full coverage for 6/60 & pow/drive for 10/100. If you happen to be the one that got Celica they forgot to lube the tranny on, your screwed. If you crank trust bearing fails, they give you a short block and leave the damaged head suffering oil pressure loss to the timing chain tensioner. Your spun tranny bearing is called, "muffler noise". I hate to break it to you, but there is a lot of pissed off people at Toyota. My upgrade stereo that the cassette never worked was grand. Then my cracked brake drum sure ate the brakes up. Even my scratched windshield on Tercel never got changed, due to the wiper blade slipping on (at 3,000 mi).
    So here's what you get with Toyota, excessive price, marginal styling, and poor service. With the Korean lineup, you getred carpet service, durable cars, fresh styling, great value.
    To say the Japanese have some kind of quality edge is no longer real. The Korean factories are way newer, using state of the art robotics. You can complain about the limited selection. That's a real thing, but inferior quality, tha't what the Japanese makers want people to think.
    All I saying is to go at things with an open mind. Most of us has had a number of years to see the Japanese stuff. The Korean thing is too new to continue to write of as poor quality. All the things that meet the eyes indicate the Korean as the new quality leader. If the cars look better, they probably are.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,682
    hey, bluffhouse, thanks for the truth in reviewing I just read of yours above. You want to know how I can claim that what you and I are claiming is indeed true? Easy. The Korean cars LOOK WAY BETTER, cost way less, the service department wants you to be happy and all taken care of, your car won't cost you favorite things that you also like. Reading your post above is great testimony to car truth. There is WAY TOO MUCH CONTINUED HYPE FOR THE JAPANESE MODELS. I've driven Korean for 2 years and I only feel stronger towards the Korean cars as each week passes. A close look at their manufacturing processes at their website is very revealing. Everything is designed with the person in mind from the start. Sounds simple? I's rather have a car company try to please my driving needs than be so concerned about snapping up my hard-earned cash. If I start out paying less for a Korean car it stands to reason that I'm gonna get less in trade. Trade-in time is not a factor when I buy a car. My Sephia shows no signs of slowing down at 64,300 miles. Not at all. No need to trade in unless I want to. If I do it'll be on another Kia or a Hyundai. VW's? Sorry, they too feel like they have to stiff your pocketbook to justify their expense at making you one of their fancy-dancy "German-engineered cars". Not nearly enough going for it to look away from Kia or Hyundai. Apparently more and more Americans are pulling their heads out of their, uh, armpits and seeing the Kia or Hyundai solution to the nonsense that they see on sales lots in America.

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    Thanks for the laughs, guys. You talk about quality, but you conviently ignore the J.D. Powers' survey and the AutoPacific survey which are the views of actual owners.

    Bluff, you made some claims about the Leganza and I asked you to back them up. Someone else asked you to back them up sometime before that, but you never have.

    Care to back it up now?

    Again, thanks for the laughs.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    I am laughing so hard I can barely see straight.

    I hope you don't misunderstand, but I want to quote some of what you said and respond. I think there may be a language barrier so that is why I say I hope you don't misunderstand. Also, I am correcting one or two misspellings. I am not doing this to poke fun at you or anything like that. It will just make it easier for someone to follow the "conversation."

    You say, "to say the Japanese have some kind of quality edge is no longer real. [snip].... inferior quality, that's what the Japanese makers want people to think."

    Try telling that to actual owners of Hyundai, Kia, and Daewoo cars who participated in the J.D. Powers surveys. Try telling that to actual owners who participated in the AutoPacific survey.

    You say, "All I say is go at things with an open mind."

    Why don't you think I did? It was about a year and a half to two years between the time I thought about a new car before I bought one. During that time, I read a lot, talked to a lot of people who owned various cars, looked at a number of cars, and test drove quite a few.

    You say, "most of us have had a number of years to see the Japanese stuff."

    Just what age do you think I am? To paraphrase a popular song, "I got my license in the day, but it wasn't yester-day." I have been around long enough to see the Japanese stuff. And the Korean stuff.

    Finally, you say, "the Korean thing is too new to continue to write off as poor quality."

    Excuse me? I believe in giving people and companies the benefit of the doubt, but your statement is ridiculous. I think the newness (and the past track record) is a reason not to trust them entirely. Note I did not say to never trust them.

    They just need to earn the trust. It should not be blindly given to them.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    I want to explain further why I quoted from your post. It is a habit that I picked up from posting on AOL's message boards. Over there, it is considered polite to quote some from what you are responding so people who are lurking can follow along. I hope you understand.

    I did this quoting with a letter someone sent me so that they could see what I was responding to and they went ballistic. I think there was a language barrier and they did not understand my motivation. I was not trying to make fun of them either.

    I could have dealt with your misspellings in one of three ways. I could have used the editor's mark [sic] which basically means this is how something originally appeared, but I was worried you would not understand. I could have corrected the misspellings and not said anything. Or I could have corrected the misspellings and let you know what I had done. I thought the third way was the most honorable.

    I am sorry that you did not have good luck with your Toyotas and the dealerships that worked on them. You want us to give Hyundai, Kia, and Daewoo a chance, but it seems that you want us to write off the Japanese simply because of your bad experience.

    Well, having talked to a number of actual Toyota (and Japanese car) owners as well as reading a lot and talking to a number of actual Korean made car owners as well as reading a lot, this led me to the conclusion that there are more unhappy Korean car owners than Toyota and other Japanese car owners. Note that I said owners. I am not talking about auto publication editors or the perceptions of the general public, but owners of the vehicles.

    Also, Toyota and most of the other Japanese makers have a track record for quality and reliability while Kia and Hyundai (at least) have track records for low quality and non reliability. According to the J.D. Powers surveys I have seen bandied about, Daewoo does better on initial quality. The big drawbacks with them are that they are financially weak, small dealer network, safety issues, and an uncertain future here in the United States.

    And just because you had bad luck with the dealership does not mean I will. Granted, I have only been to my dealership for one oil change, but I felt very well treated. I brought in my Echo (the most inexpensive currently produced Toyota Passenger car) and got the same level of great attention as the guy who brought in his Avalon (the most expensive Toyota passenger car currently produced) for work.

    I have had one complaint about "my" dealer and that was they were suggesting the oil changes be done at 3,500 miles, but having talked to many owners of many different makes, this seems to be standard. Even if your owner manual says 5,000 or 7,500 miles between oil changes, the dealer is going to suggest that 3,000 mile interval.

    My apologies for the long post.

    Happy motoring.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    For lack of something cheaper to do (driving my Echo would be better, but not cheaper since gas still costs money no matter how little I use), I have been doing a lot of reading.

    It seems like you owned a lot of older Toyotas and it seems like it has been some time ago. I was just wondering what the model year of newest Toyota you owned was. Also, did you buy any of these Toyotas new or were they all used? If used, that might be your problem right there. No matter how good a car starts out if it is abused, it is bound to have problems later on.

    Also, when was the last time you took a look at a Toyota and examined things like fit and finish?

    In case you are wondering, I examined Daewoo, Hyundai, and Kia (among others) for fit and finish back in March of this year so it is not like my personal information is that old.

    Can you say the same?
  • carleton1carleton1 Posts: 560
    We do not yet own a Toyota and never have. However, of all vehicles owned by all the people I know, the Toyota has the fewest problems...all types of Toyota. We were VERY impressed with the ECHO when we test drove one almost 2 years ago. It had good seating position, outstanding fuel economy, good performance, great ride and very roomy for a small car. It is far superior to the many small cars we have owned and purchased NEW: 1971 Chevy Vega, 1971 VW Super Beetle, 1972 Volvo 145S, 1975 VW Rabbit, and 1980 Chevy Citation.
    However, now that we are 63 years old, we like a nicer quality seat covering, padded armrests on doors, fold down armrests for front seats, Cruise Control, padded and carpeted door panels and other niceties found on all Siennas. The Odyssey is nice but lacks padded arm rests on doors, Dual Zone Temp, Overhead console of our Grand Caravan. MPV is underpowered and felt much smaller than the Sienna. The Sienna is THE MOST comfortable vehicle for us and we would have purchased one in 1999 if we had looked more closely. I believed the drivel in car magazines that Sienna was nice but too small and too expensive. We did NOT even look at Sienna for that reason.
    Friends have had major problems with Hondas, Nissans, Mazdas, Hyundais, all European brands,all American brands,etc...BUT not one has had any problems with a Toyota. Truly remarkable...and that is why I feel Toyota is THE most reliable brand.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,682
    Mr. major, you can rant on and on and on and on and on and on and on about your love for Toyota's and you know what it teaches me? You're either unemployed or underemployed or for some reason you've got a lot of free time. I don't hate Honda or Nissan or Toyota I just feel that they're overpriced, boring automobiles. Kia's and Hyundai's are good looking, well-designed cars with great warranty's and low prices. Again, I drive one and it's a very painless experience. No need to try a Japanese car. I'm constantly having to see them on the clogged up roads. Honda Sticker boys with whiny-butted annoying sounding engines that really don't inspire confidence by their sound. Sound like angry hornets. Boring looks. New Civic is looking worse than old. The only Toyota worth looking at is the new Celica. It's overpriced and, yes, it's stuck with the Toyota label. High prices, bland looks=winning formula for Americans lacking in luster. Good for profit margin though. Keep throwing the mindless information from American car magazines who've made their minds up BEFORE driving a Hyundai or Kia. You're entertaining, Mr.major.

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • jstandeferjstandefer Posts: 805
    I recall an extremely recent "American car magazine" that just rated the Hyundai XG300 over the Honda Accord and Dodge Stratus. It was a value comparison, with most editors picking the Accord as the car they would actually own, but the Hyundai gave the most bang-for-the-buck in creature comforts, but placed dead last in acceleration, handling, and braking.

    And it's funny how I've read some very good reviews of the Hyundai Tiburon, with the editors calling it entertaining and a good value. But, since this is all "mindless information", I guess we should just discard all of this praise for Hyundai.

    But, once compared to other vehicles in it's class, the Koreans have their work cut out for them. Car and Driver did an excellent comparison of 13 small sedans. These "American car magazines" have a distinct habit of hating "American" cars, but they still scored higher than the Koreans...

    Here's sections of the article:

    "Thirteenth Place: Kia Sephia LS"

    "Kia is a relatively new player in the U.S. market, although not quite the tenderfoot it might seem; Ford Festivas and Aspires of the '80s and '90s came from Korea's Kia. But the Ford deal has ended, and now Kia is following the path of so many hopeful importers who came to this country with no reputation and little experience, intent on grabbing a piece of our 17-million annual car market."

    "The Sephia's last-place rating in this test, by a clear margin, suggests that Kia still has plenty of upgrading to do. That's if you're gauging this car as we do, holding it up to the levels of sophistication achieved by Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and Mazda. The Sephia makes enough thrumming noises and quivering branggs as it shuttles down the highway, makes enough big deals out of small bumps, and loses enough parts as it passes (the rubber windshield molding blew off in the top-speed test) to constantly remind us that it's still a work in progress."

    "On the other hand, for the rock-bottom price of $13,324 as tested, lowest of the group, you get a brand-new car with a list of features that's about average for this group, including power locks, windows, and mirrors; cruise control; a CD player; and more. On the inside, Kia has made more effort toward color coordination and pleasing materials than many of the others here, including Saturn, the spendiest car of the bunch.
    The Sephia's performance is mostly on the low side of average, although top-gear acceleration is midpack. Top speed, at 119 mph, tied the gutsy Hyundai while outrunning all the others."

    "In the rear, footroom is generous under the front buckets, but the seat itself leans back like a La-Z-Boy, drawing complaints from all. Space back there is about average for the group, comfort is below average."

    "Value shoppers will be reassured by the three-year/36,000-mile vehicle warranty and five-year/60,000-mile powertrain warranty."

    "Highs: Best price in town, smart color coordination inside, did we mention "low price"?
    Lows: Enough vibrations to start your own garage band, weak braking, yesterday's styling.
    The Verdict: In price and behavior, sorta like a brand-new used car."

    First place went to (surprise!) a Japanese car.

    "First Place: Mazda Protege ES"

    "This Mazda tops the charts for driving fun. Its chassis muscles are athletic, its engine is sweet and strong, its controls are precise and direct, and the look is classy inside and out. This is a car that does everything well. And it has spirit. BMW verve for less than half the price. What's not to like?"

    "The quality of this car starts with body structure, as solid as the vault at Wells Fargo. No rattles and buzzes. No quivers and thrums. And there's room for very tall drivers. The seat knows exactly how the orthopedist told you to sit. It's easy to find a good driving position in this car. There's a wonderful leanness all about you, with imaginative shapes to please the eye, but no fat, no froufrou. Just pure car flavor delivered without distraction."

    "This is a disciplined machine with quick, sure suspension responses starting right down where the low-profile 195/55VR-15 Bridgestones meet the pavement. So you can hurry without worry. Path control is excellent, whether you're bending through the twisties or cruising the interstate. Acceleration numbers trail the Dodge Neon's by a nose, until the Protege, with its songful 1840cc, pulls ahead to finish the quarter in 16.8 seconds at 82 mph. A glimpse of the handling prowess appears in the results of the emergency-lane-change test, where the Mazda outruns all but the big-tired Hyundai, which squeaks through 0.1 mph faster."

    "Although most of the fun happens in the driver's seat, this four-door also takes exceptionally good care of its passengers. For both two and three occupants in the rear seat, the Mazda ranked just behind the Focus. Both of these sedans have high, firm rear benches with good thigh support and excellent footroom under the front buckets."

    "There aren't many sedans at any price that can match the dynamic balance of this Mazda, that possess the quick, confident moves and the carved-from-billet integrity of structure. At a sticker of $15,570, this Protege ES seems an easy choice."

    "Highs: Classy looks inside and out, quality feel, sports-sedan power and handling.
    Lows: Compared with the others, no complaints.
    The Verdict: A small car that makes us feel rich."

    You can read the full article at http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/comparisontests/2000/Jun/200006_comparisontest_littl.xml?&page=1
  • bluffhousebluffhouse Posts: 33
    Owns a '96 Camry 4. Better read up on the bad seals. They smoke like old faithful when they start. Not good for a company of such great praise. Even the late eighties Toyotas had some real problems. Many of which I laugh about because the same Toyota BS existed back then as now. I laugh everytime I see an old Toyota pass with one dim headlight, a problem I outgrew.
  • badtoybadtoy Posts: 368
    but you guys said it all...."Wishful thinkin don't make it so."

    Amen.

    (Speakin of time....iluvmysephia seems to have a lot of time on his hands too. Maybe that's why he can only afford a -- what is it? -- oh yeah -- a Kia??) =O)
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,682
    If Toyota or even masterful Mazda are the benchmark car producers for the rest of the world to bow down to we're in real trouble. When is Mazda going to actually STYLE A SUBCOMPACT OR COMPACT CAR? They're very bland looking. And notice that price $15,000 and plenty of change. Oh, they deserve it right? They've been at this a long time and those chubby older guys in the offices are getting closer to retirement, so let's just jack it to those silly Americans! Well, I don't bite that easily. Boring, mundane looking Japanese vehicles. Toyota's Celica has promise, but, yes, they've overpriced it. It doesn't hold the same grace as Sephia anyway. Toyota's WiLL concept car looked kinda cool. Watch what happens now. If it goes to production they'll "have" to charge $21,000 before options "because it's a Thai-o-ta" and "we've been at this a long time!" We're getting chubby and complacent on you dumb Americans and you keep giving us your cash! We love you Americans! I'm not biting! It's Kia or Hyundai from here on out baby!

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • liljonsonliljonson Posts: 109
    i agree with sephia guy. celicas are WAY too overpriced. the gt gets outrunned by the tiburon and elantra (i've done it with ease) and costs less. so wat are you paying that extra money for in a "sports car"? hyundai and kia sell their cars not for poor people or people without lots of money, they sell it to smart people who know the value of a car and who wont spend an extra 5-10K on the badge of the car. my friend owns a civic ex, those things are pieces of crap and he admits it. slow and expensive. same with celica gt (i'm not talking about the celica gts because WOW) he says he paid too much for the gt. sephia is a great car right now and will be 10x better when the sehpia II comes out and that goes for all hyundais and kias they redesign like crazy and always improve on power and goodies. i'm not saying that the other cars like honda and toyotas are junk, i just think they aren't worth it since they cost too much for wat they give you.
    anybody who owns a hyundai/kia knows the secret the non-owners don't know. we get ALOT more than we pay for. with the other makers you get what you pay for sometimes.
  • liljonsonliljonson Posts: 109
    oh yea i don't care what people say about the echo, they aren't pretty but sure are quick for the hp/torque you got in that car. i'm gonna have to say VERY nicely done.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    Did the Celicas that you say you have outraced know you were racing them? That might be another explanation. Or it could be that the person driving the Celica did not know what they were doing.

    Not saying you have not outraced a Celica in an Elantra, but there may be another explanation besides the car.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    Two of the main reasons that I bought a Toyota over a Hyundai, Kia, or Daewoo were little things called initial quality and long term reliability.

    I did look at the Korean makes and models, but I liked what I saw in the Toyota better.

    The initial quality is not as good in a Korean make as it is in the Toyota, but don't take my word for it. Look at the J.D. Powers initial quality survey. This is a survey of ACTUAL OWNERS.

    Daewoo does not have a long enough track record in this country to really talk about whether or not they are reliable in the long haul, but that lack of a track record counted against them.

    Kia has a somewhat longer track record and it did not inspire confidence in me. I especially did not like all the brake problems I saw reported in the 1999 Kia Sephias.

    Hyundai has the longest track record here and it scared me the most. I remember all the early models. I also talked to actual owners of more recent Hyundai models and while Hyundai has improved from those early days, they have not improved enough to suit me.

    Hope that you continue to enjoy your vehicle.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    You have made claims about cars in the past and I have asked for proof and another person asked for proof before me. Strangely you shut up whenever this happens.

    Are you going to provide documentation or is it all a bluff?
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