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Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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  • Clay, my post was a joke. Nice of you not to get it.

    But to answer your questions, I do not think that Kias are junk. They are just not very good cars. Yes, I have driven some.

    But you don't necessarily have to drive a vehicle to form an opinion about the quality. Or do you think that checking out the operation of something like the glove box requires a test drive?
  • bill_1bill_1 Posts: 97
    Naturally. I long ago concluded that I am the only person in the world capable of making a truely objective observation and therefore all of my opinions are unbiased ; ).
  • bill_1bill_1 Posts: 97
    Actually my point was even stronger than that. Bombarded with enough information one way or the other, your opinions on a test drive or even after an extended period with a car can be influenced by the opinions of others. Granted it is not enough to overcome a genuine lemon, but it certainly might be enough to allow the driver to overlook small faults or to magnify small faults into major problems.

    Scientific Experimentation often requires ways of hiding information from the user that might be a source of bias: In clinical trials of drugs there is always a control given a placebo, Particle Physicists now use methods to hide the results of an experiment until after all the data has been processed, etc. Unfortunately such methods are pretty much impossible with cars. I know that Hyundai tried hiding the identity of their Sonata a few years back but that was only for short test drives, it would be impossible to hide the identity of a car over an extended period of time.

    Ultimately for Hyundai to overcome the perception of many, it is going to take many, many happy owners who have owned the cars for many years. Daewoo and Kia have even higher obstacles to climb since they enjoy far less recognition than Hyundai (and imho their products are less appealing (I know some people like the Optima, but I look at it and think Yuck, I like the Sonata much better in terms of styling).
  • That's what I've been trying to say. People are more likely to overlook small imperfections in an Accord, but magnify them in a Sonata (or Leganza, or whatever). We all know that Daewoo and Kia have much farther to go than Hyundai, but its only been in the last couple of years that they have HAD to step it up to compete with the big Japanese companies in this country. I think anyone would be hard pressed to look at 2002 Optimas and Sedonas and think they are no better than 1995 Sephias and Sportages. Kia releases a new 4Runner-size SUV next year and the improvements keep coming. Give them a little while and they'll be there.
  • shriqueshrique Posts: 338
    In case anyone wants to know Ford recalled it's Focus again. It's only about 279,000 of them though. (sigh) According to the article the 2000 focus has been recalled 7 times. It's almost funny that the good press on that car is just about weighted equally against the bad press. Oh well.

    Anyone else noticed the 80's like adds that Daewoo is running for it's Lanos? It's even got the ubiquitous panther-morphing-into-a-car routine. Oh an how about the car driving up the dam. (chuckle)

    "The Daewoo Lanos dominates the road with it's 109 ft/lbs of torque"
  • Did you notice the small print at the bottom of the screen during the "driving up the dam" thing? It said "Unsafe maneuver, do not attempt" or something to that effect. Too funny!
  • bill_1bill_1 Posts: 97
    While one can certainly argue that it might be a poor decision to choose a Korean Car over a Toyota or a Honda, I think that Ford had done alot to make the argument for Korean cars in recent years. How Ford could produce a car that is so good and bad at the same time I will never know. It is funny really, a couple of years ago many analysts thought that Ford might pass GM, I don't think that is likely to happen in the near future now.
  • shriqueshrique Posts: 338
    The really scary part about it is that GM makes "worse" cars than ford. GM has never been a personal favorite of mine. Their cars are just too cheap and lack attention to detail. Ford has attention to detail but they don't seem to be able to design a solid reliable product. (sigh) Oh well. maybe one day I'll buy American again. The best I can do now if I want to buy American is to buy a care Manufactuered here using our labor (ie Honda Accord).
  • Bill, you miss my point and that is you do not have to take a test drive to make a determination about the quality of a car, ANY car. I am not saying that glove boxes are a problem on a Korean car. I was just using that as an example of something that you can check without the car being in drive.
  • bill_1bill_1 Posts: 97
    I think you missed my point. Test Drive or no Test Drive, most people, maybe all people, simply cannot be objective in assesing the quality of a car. We are constantly bombarded by messages from the media, from friends, from past experiences that often lead us to prejudge a car without ever seeing it and seeing it will often do little or nothing to alter that initial perception.

    If people's perceptions of cars were purely logical, then I imagine that GM would have gone out of business years ago, or at least trimed their line down considerably. The Cavalier for example is on an (in automotive terms) ancient platform, was never very refined, has a number of niggling problems associated with it and yet it still remains a very strong selling sedan for GM, indeed I would bet many of its buyers are buying their second Cavalier. Further I would bet that many of those Cavalier Drivers would claim it is just as good as any Japanese Car.

    Also of course different people have a different idea of what constitutes quality. To some it is a car with no squeaks and rattles and an impeccable finish, to others it is a car that will run without letting them down for 100K+ miles. To the first group a flimsy cupholder (Like VW is infamous for) might be a sign of poor quality, to the latter group a GM car might well qualify (since many of the old engines in GMs stable are essentially bullet proof at this point) as being high quality.
  • bill_1bill_1 Posts: 97
    I will agree that GM cars often have very poor initial build quality, at least when it comes to fit and finish, but I would certainly say that the number of recalls on the Focus indicates a lack of attention to detail. While I am not a huge fan of GM either, their cars, while unrefined and likely full of rattles and squeaks are actually usually pretty dependable. I had a 1989 Cavalier that I kept until 1998 (99 model year); It only stranded me once at 120,000 miles when the ignition module went on the car (at that many miles it could happen to any car), I did have to replace the spark plug wires a couple of times and the computer control chip twice (but then again it never stopped running either time) but other than that I have little to complain about in that car.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    at Ford... I shudder to think what Job Two is. A slew of recalls on my '95 Mystique, otherwise a good ride IMO, kept me from looking seriously at the Focus. And now SEVEN on the 2000 Focus?!? I think that breaks the record of my mom's baby blue '76 Plymouth Volare 2 door with the white vinyl opera roof, slant six, and wire wheels. (As you'll recall, the Volare/Aspen was Motor Trend's Car of the Year in '76.)
  • well let's go ahead! Did anybody else hear the story about Ford's Escape boo-boo? Something about the wrong tool/jig/assembly track set up was put into motion and the Escape went forward and several tires(yes, they must have been Firestone's 'cause Firestone denied wrongdoing for this foible!)were crushed and rims destroyed before they stopped the assembly line. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not going to sit here and key in that I think Ford employees are smoking crack on the job, but....well, uhhh, you know what I mean.

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • Ford's suck.
    Buy a Honda.
  • protegextwoprotegextwo Posts: 1,265
    1094 Quality? by 2001civicowner Nov 27, 2001 (10:31 pm)
    Ford's suck.
    Buy a Honda.


    Thank you for adding such valuable insight to this discussion! You are a very deep thinker and I hope you stick around to enrich this topic with more of your wisdom and illuminating information?
  • Iluv, I think that was the redesigned Explorer and not the Escape.
  • The attitude that you say people have is one I don't understand and do not share. I think all cars should be judged the same when it comes to fit and finish. Also judged the same when it comes to squeaks and rattles.

    I guess what I am saying is that a minor problem in a Hyundai or Kia would bother me just as much as if I were in a Honda or Toyota and visa versa. Also a major problem would bother me just as much whatever car had it.
  • tazerelitazereli Posts: 241
    #888 of 888 CIVIC by 2001civicowner Nov 27, 2001 (10:23 pm)
    I paid 16,300 for my EX civic back in august. Has everything, including a rear spolier.
    Honda's are better than Hundai's for many reasons, but here's one:

    Honda: put the key in: ding, ding, silence

    Hundai: put the key in: ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong

    never ends. and that would make you a ding dong for buying it.

    'nuff said

    MORE WORDS OF WISDOM WHY WE SHOULD ALL BUY A HONDA. AS SEVERAL OF YOU KNOW I'M MOVING ONWARD AND UPWARD TO A WRX WAGON BY SUBARU. BUT AS A CIVIC OWNER FOR AT LEAST A LITTLE LONGER I STILL QUALIFY TO SPEAK IN THIS FORUM. I CAN TELL YOU FIRST HAND THAT HONDA'S ARE GREAT LITTLE CARS BUT ARE HARDLY ALL THAT. BLAND AND WITHOUT CHARACTER IS HOW I WOULD DESCRIBE MY COMMUTING APPLIANCE. YES I DRIVE THE AUTOMOTIVE EQUIVILANT OF A TOASTER. MY FIRST AND FAVORITE CAR (84 SUBIE WAGON
    4X4) HAD ABOUT A GOOGLE MORE CHARACTER THAT MY CURRENT CAR. I NEEDED A CAR THAT HAD EXCELLENT GAS MILAGE AND AT THE TIME THE CIVIC WAS ONE OF THE BEST. NOW THAT I DONT COMMUTE AS MUCH, HIGH FUEL ECONOMYIS NOT AS MUCH OF A PRIORITY. I CAN SETTLE FOR SOMETHING IN THE LOW TO MID 20'S WHICH THE WRX SHOULD BE CAPABLE OF ACHIEVING IF I STAY OFF THE GO PEDAL MOST OF THE TIME. ANYWAY THATS MY .02 FOR THE DAY. HAVE A GOOD AFTERNOON.

    KYLE
  • Perhaps I am dense, but I did not understand the thing about put the key in a Hyundai and it goes ding dong ding dong ad infinitum.
  • tazerelitazereli Posts: 241
    WHICH IS WHY I POSTED IT. IT IS JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF A CERTAIN HONDA FANATICS MISCELLANEOUS RAMBLINGS
  • Please get your caps lock fixed. My eyes would appreciate it. : )
  • He does not even know how to spell Hyundai. He got it wrong every time. What does that say about him? ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong. He paid $16,300? For $16,300 he could have bought an Elantra GT with even more stuff including a leather interior AND a big screen TV for the upcoming bowl games!
  • bill_1bill_1 Posts: 97
    Major, I think you are missing my point. I am not saying it is an attitude that people have, I am saying it is an unintentional bias, a bias that makes us incapable of fairly evaluating something like a car. If someone believes that Korean Cars are inferior (and from your earlier statements, I think it is fair to say you do) then when you get into a Korean Car, every squeak or every little problem is going to reinforce your opinion that Korean Cars are inferior. On the flip side in a Toyota we are likely to miss some squeaks because we all know that Toyota builds such a solid car.

    Essentially what I am saying is that there is a placebo effect when it comes to car evaluation. We have a tendancy to find what we previously believed about something. Its why Ford choose an advertising slogan like "Quality is Job 1", tell enough people that often enough and some of them will believe it enough to buy a Ford car.
  • Yes, it would be fair to say that I think Korean cars are inferior, but it comes from personal observation backed up by the surveys done among actual owners. It is not the other way around which was what you were implying.

    And you missed an important point in a previous post of mine. No matter the problem or the size of the problem, I would be equally disappointed if it was with a Hyundai, Kia, Daewoo, Toyota, Honda, Ford, etc.
  • bill_1bill_1 Posts: 97
    Unless you can honestly claim to have never heard from another person that the Koreans make an inferior car to everyone else, you will have a bias no matter how subtle. Even if rationally you went into an examination of a Korean car with an open mind, subconsiously the inferior reputation would be nagging you and each fault, no matter how minor you found would then reinforce that perception (and the perception you had of other Korean cars you observed later) and thus make it more likely to find further faults with the car. In contrast the reputation of Toyota will be such that you may not even notice flaws in it that you would have easily found in a Hyundai. The flip side of the equation is that even if you had not heard of Korean problems, you have definitely heard of Japanese quality and therefore the Korean would still be the vehicle that gets judged most sharply.

    The point is that our observations are always subjective and will tend to reinforce what we have heard from others unless substantial evidence is found to the contrary no matter how much we may strive to be open-minded. This is part of being human and that is why in science, efforts are always taken to remove observer bias whenever possible (again medicine is a good example; in a clinical trial for a drug, neither the patients participating nor the doctors administering the drugs know whether the drugs they are receiving/dispensing are real or a placebo).

    To make my point simple; yes I know you believe you are objective, yes I know you would view any perceived fault as an equal strike against any vehicle; my point is that without controls it is essentially impossible for humans to be objective and that that loss of objectivity will essentially make it impossible for you to perceive faults equally.
  • What you are saying is that all the people who respond to the JD Powers and Consumer Reports magnified the problems their Korean cars had (if they owned a Korean make) and downplayed the problems their non Korean cars had (if they owned a non Korean make).

    I think you sell people (especially me) short.
  • bill_1bill_1 Posts: 97
    I recognize the reality of Man. Any Historian, any Lawyer and especially any Scientist will tell you that humans are biased. Granted I can't be sure that the scenario I described above is true, it might be the opposite. The point is that all of us have biases, many of which we are not aware of. Indeed I will submit that the most important biases are the ones we are not aware we have.

    Again, I am not stating that Korean Cars have caught up with Honda and Toyota, but they might be much closer than many here want to admit.
  • Hey guys, I'm sorry that I didn't spell the name of your car company correctly. My mistake.
    I said what I said last night mostly because I was bored, but here is some detail for why I said what I said.
    "Ford's suck" Well, not ALL fords suck, but some older ones do. I have alot of friends who have had alot of horror stories with their fords and it makes me not want to buy one.
    "Buy a Honda" Well, I own one now, and I have to be partial to them! And, I've always heard great things about Hondas.

    And about the "ding dong" thing...If you dont understand what I'm talking about, then never mind--I just know that it has always bugged me hearing that dang repetitious noise that alot of cars make. Alot of cars continuously make noises like that, but I found Hyundai's to be the most annoying.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    For those who don't like car chimes, Hyundai took care of one of them at least with the Elantra, using an auto-off lights feature instead of a chime. I don't know if the Civic does that or not.

    For those who don't like the "ding dong" when the key is in the ignition and the door is open... closing the door or taking the key out of the ignition will solve that little problem.

    Just like the Fords that chime incessantly when the driver's seat belt is unbuckled (also very annoying), there is a simple solution: buckle the seatbelt.
  • So the only way that Major's vehicle reports of the Kias would be correct is if they were all positive? Once again your comments give me this certain urge...
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