Low End Sedans (under $16k)

backy

So Toyota picked up some of the share... but who else picked some up?

(Hint: next to Maserati, what company has the biggest percentage growth in U.S. light vehicle sales YTD in 2005?)

Honda has stated they would rather cut production on the Civic than pile on Honda-to-consumer incentives. Interesting strategy--but it does protect the resale values.

Besides, if you are a Honda dealer would you rather sell an Accord, or SUV, or red-hot Odyssey--all with bigger markups than the Civic?

Honda does really need an entry-level car though... especially if the rumors about the next Civic moving up-market are true.

backy

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe any car has passed the IIHS side impact test without side bags--maybe even side curtains? That makes the odds that Subaru will put side bags on the Impreza pretty high.

alpha01

No car has ever passed without side airbags. However, I believe the Honda CRV managed a Marginal without side airbags. This is due to the fact that the barrier hits SUVs at a different structural point than it does passenger cars (obvious).

Backy, the Accord's sales are down about 9% YTD vs last year as well, and I dont think many people considering the Civic are cross shopping Odys. (But I do understand your rationale that salespeople would rather emphasize the higher margin product).

~alpha

pusterracing

I consider "serious" injury...to be one that is life threatening, and a fractured pelvis is not that.

Not picking on you Alpha (I really enjoyed your review of the '05.5 Jetta), but "Serious Injury" needs to be looked at in the context that the NHTSA, IIHS and NTSB look at it, not just our personal definitions (my personal definition is any injury that might have lifelong affects)

NHTSA defines a serious injury as one that requires immediate hospitalization and may be life threatening.

So, in the senario, a fractured pelvis and fractured ribs are indeed serious injuries, and could cause lifelong changes. Such as the person that breaks both their Radius and Ulna during a car crash. It is not life threatening (though it happens very often), but can very well be life altering, considering that they may never regain the full use of the arm that was broken. And that injury would require immediate hospitalization, and more than likely surgery to pin the break.

Just thought I'd chime in with my $0.02.

BTW I drive one of those low end sedans.....

-PR-

03 Ford F350 SuperCrew KingRanch 6.0L Powerstroke
04 VW Jetta GLS TDI
05 VW Passat GLS TDI

alpha01

You know what? You're right- a term like "serious injury" should be viewed not on a personal type level but rather a standardized one. That said, I'd be interested to know if the IIHS, which actually conducted this test, uses the same definition.

I hear your point about such injuries being life altering, and that is not insignificant. However, I'd take a *possibly* life altering injury such as a fractured (not the same as broken) pelvis or broken ribs as opposed to death, which is virtually certain in this type of accident in every other car besides the side curtain equipped Cobalt and Corolla. This isnt really a debatable issue, because thats what the facts state. So yes, the Cobalt and Corolla are not vehicles from which you'd escape completely unharmed, but, at least you would not have suffered from severe brain injuries (Cobalt and Corolla, et al without head protection side airbags) or fatal blows to the thorax (Elantra, Forenza, Spectra).

~alpha

backy

Let's also remember that the IIHS runs its tests ONCE per model, unless there is an anomaly with the test (e.g. air bag fails to deploy). We know from experience with these tests that results can differ markedly from one run with the same model of car to another. This is not an exact science, and results are not exactly replicable. I think the best we can say about the tests is that they prove that the RISK of a more severe injury is greater on small cars like the Elantra, Focus, Spectra, Forenza, etc. etc. than with small cars like the Cobalt and Corolla.

I think we'll see more and more cars adopting standard side curtains, as Hyundai/Kia and Honda have been doing on all their new models, as a result of the IIHS test. The curtain helps keep the passengers' heads inside the car, which is a key factor in assessing injury.

alpha01

I'm not sure what you mean "We know from experience with these tests that results can differ markedly from one run with the same model of car to another".In fact, I can't even think of one example where there is a MARKED difference. No, the EXACT same results do not occur where multiple runs of the same model are made, BUT the differences are typically minimal, with physical deformation patterns remarkably similar.

Most of the differences, at least for the frontal offset, seem to lie in dummy kinematics as opposed to structural or injury measues. (For example, whether or not the dummy's head hits the B-pillar on rebound from the airbag). Check out the frontal offset of the Corolla. The second test was simply a redesign of padding in the footwell. The injury measures and structural deformation seem to be well within acceptable variation due to sampling. (Just one example, that I thought of off the top of my head).

~alpha

backy

Maybe the misunderstanding is from my poorly constructed sentence. Clearer is:

We know from experience with these tests that results can differ markedly from one run to the other, with the same model of car.

You mentioned a good example: whether a dummy's head hits the B-pillar or not. So what if on run #2 on one of the "poor" cars (a run that never happened of course) the dummy's head did not pop out the open window? Would the car still have received a "poor"? We've discussed wrt another car, the Spectra, how close the difference between "poor" and "marginal"/"acceptable" can be.

ericf1

I'm not so sure about that, at least not for '05. The '06 Impreza should be a new design. The '05 design is so old I don't see how they could stick side-curtains in there- at best they might add side-bumpers of some sort w/side-seat bags to score an "acceptable".
Even then I don't see how they'll manage it, being that no car with side-seat bags alone was enough to score "acceptable".

You can bet all new sub-compact designs will strive to pass with an "acceptable" or better. If the new low-end Kia, Hyundai and Civics don't all come with side-curtain as standard I'd be very suprised. They will all be offering updated '06 models.

Is the Sentra being redesigned any time soon?

backy

Automakers are beginning to pay attention... SABs and SACs are now standard on all new Kias and Hyundais; the '04 Spectra was the first model to be so equipped, but that's been followed by the new Tucson, Sportage, Sonata, Accent, Rio, and Azera. Honda has announced they will provide SABs and SACs standard in all models by the end of 2006--so that will include the new Civic and the Fit (if it ever gets over here...).

I don't see the Sentra being redesigned soon since it was totally revamped in mid-'04, and as I noted it already offers SABs and SACs standard.

alpha01

backy... Sentra... not Spectra.

Yes, the Sentra is due (more like RIPE) for a redesign. One should appear in early Spring 2006 as a 2007, if I recall correctly. I wouldnt buy a Sentra right now in anything other than SE-R trim. Nationwide, the rebate even for that model is $2500, so a loaded, $20,200 SE-R auto (with sunroof, Rockford Fosgate 230 watt CD, ABS, sport suspension, 16 inch alloys, trip computer, etc) can be had for invoice less that amount, around $15.8K. Score another $500 off if you finance through NMAC and are a recent college grad.

~alpha

backy

Or "Spectra--not Sentra"?

mletour

Hi.
I am new to this board. I am relocating to a new area of the country, and will need to be away from my family for the first month. I hadn't anticipated needing a second car this quickly, so I am scrambling to find a really cheap deal (0 down and less than $200/month), either leasing or buying. Does anybody know which buzz box manufacturer has the most motivated attitude when moving these cars? I have feelers out to the local Chevy, Hyundai, Saturn, Suzuki, Toyota and Nissan dealers. The current front runner is the Reno, with nothing down and a $185/month lease. The only option I require is AC (I am moving from upstate NY to Virginia).
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank,
Mike

randydriver

Hey you can get an Aveo with air /5speed for close to that, or I know the Accents down here are going cheap (Dallas,Tx) because the new 2006 will be out soon. The Rio is another option. Toyota and Nissan are like still proud of their name down here. The Reno is a good option but the mileage is kinda low. The salesman at the Suzuki dealership thought 30mpg on the hiway was great......he didn't know anything about cars.....one those kind of salespeople. My Aveo is now starting to get broken in and the mileage around town is 31. and 38-40 on the hiway but I also have a 5speed and I usually drive 60-65 mph on the hiway.

mletour

PS: Does anyone know if the $139/month Saturn lease is still happening?

csandste

Aveo, Accent and Rio. If you can get one for less money than those it would be worth it. Don't get upside down in a lease on a car with deep depreciation.

backy

Why stick to a lease? For example, Hyundai is offering 0% financing on Accents and Elantras for 60 months. You should be able to get an Accent for around $10k with a/c, or a base Elantra with a/c and much more for around $12k. That puts you at around $200 or less for payments (depending on tax/license fees), but at the end of 5 years you own the car and have some equity in it. There are even better deals available on '04 Accents and Elantras, if you can find one--the 0% plus a rebate.

Saturn may have a good lease on the ION 1, but it's one of the lowest-rated compacts out there. If you like how it drives though, it might be your best lease deal. Just call your local dealer to find out the current deal.

Another option for a really nice car is the Impreza. They have a $189/month lease with 0 down.

Honda has consistently offered the Civic VP for $159/month, but that's with some down. You might ask the dealer what they could do with 0 down--still would probably come in under $200/month.

Chevy is advertising Cobalts at $159/month with little down. Again, you might ask the Chevy dealer what they can do with you. Those things aren't exactly flying off the lots, so they might be willing to deal. For that matter, Civic sales are down this year too, so maybe you can do some dealing there.

mletour

Thanks to all for the input! You brought up some options I hadn't thought of. I'm going to let the dealers chew on my emails, and see what they come up with....

Mike

backy

Couple of other things from today's paper: Spectra LX with A/C, $179/month with $139 down. Cobalt with A/C, $164/month, 0 down. Also I saw an Accent with A/C and power package for $10,500 before rebate and an Elantra for $12,500 before rebate, so my prices in prior post may be about $500 high--VA may have better deals though.

grandtotal

Here's another option - if you only need a car for the month that you will be separated from your family, then rent one. Of course if you were going to buy one anyway and are just looking for an excuse, then ignore this suggestion.

jojomonkeyboy

Stopped at a Kia dealership yesterday. They had a manual Rio with /no air conditioning.

That's right NO AIR CONDITIONING $8,000 after rebate

I'm in the Chicagoland area, maybe, maybe if I was in upper Michigan I might be able to get by without air conditioning, but definately not in Chicago. And to pay $8,000 for that ??? Ugh, blah, blech, Pthooohey !!!

I think there is a difference between low-end and "economical commuter" car.

A "must have" for me is good gas mileage, I have an ECHO with stick shift, and while it's no Insight, it gets good mileage, (33/39), I average 37 mpg.

I'm still surprised at the Rio's really mediocre gass mileage (25/32). Not impressed with the Aveo's gas mileage either (27/35) stick. I guess "low-end" means low gas mileage too.

newcar31

A friend just picked up a 2005 Focus ZX3 for $10K. It has the new Mazda 2.0L with AC and a CD player.

It drives exceptionally nice for a $10K car. I can't think of another brand new car that drives better for $10K. The ride and handling are really unbelievable for the price. It shifts nice and the new 2.0L engine is pretty smooth. Did I already say it was only $10K?

What else can you get for $10K? An Aveo? Low end Kia or Hyundai?

muffin_man

The amount of money you will save in gas between the Aveo and the Echo amounts to about $150 a year (assuming $2.50/gallon, and 15,000 miles a year). Depending how much you paid for the Echo, it may never make a difference.

That said, the Echo is reportedly much faster, and is a Toyota. However, I am willing to bet that the $8500 I paid for my 2004 Aveo Base (2005 LS) ends up being more economical than an Echo. However, I would love a 3-door Echo hatch, if it was available.

Interesting, while I did some reading on the Echo (here at Edmunds), I found:
"After scheduling a 2001 Echo Sedan weeks in advance, we arrived at Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A. Inc.'s Torrance, Calif., headquarters to pick up our test vehicle. At that time, we were informed that we would no longer be given access to Toyota press vehicles, because of the negative reviews of the Echo that appeared on our Web site. Immediately, we arranged to rent one instead, as well as a Prius gas-electric hybrid that had also been pulled from us at the last minute."

Interesting.

randydriver

Were the heck did he get a Ford Focus for $10k? By the way I get very good mileage out of my Aveo 29-40 mpg.

backy

You can get (in my town anyway) a new 2005 Elantra GLS with its usual power accessories, SABs, 8-way driver's seat, heated mirrors, etc. for under $10k. Handling wise the Focus will beat it, but the Elantra will beat it in driver's comfort, interior room (esp. rear head room), and creature comforts. Not to mention the famous warranty.

So there's some pretty good choices out there for only $10k. I have also recently seen Spectra LXes and Forenza S'es for about $10k. For the money I'd rather have the Elantra or Focus though.

jojomonkeyboy

In January they were advertising 2004 Aveo Special Value for $6300 I don't know how that equates to drive-away price, I guess that depends on how good or how bad you are at negotiating. But still, starting at $6300, I have to think you end up with a pretty cheap car in the end. And the SV has AC.

I paid $11,300 for my 2003 ECHO - that's my drive away price including 7 year / 75,000 Platinum warranty. Definately not cheap compared to the Aveo. But I have 30,000 miles on it now and the only problem I've had with it is windsheild wiper - which was kinda my fault anyway. I had ice on the windsheild and should have scraped it before using the wipers but i got lazy and used the wiper anyway and it created a little tear in the rubber - which eventually got worse so I had to replace the wiper - $11.87 for a new wiper.

I read an article about Chevy last Sunday in the Chicago Trib, the article was mostly about lower-end Chevy offerings, the article said that the Aveos were selling like hotcakes - something like 56,000 cars sold in 2004 ???

http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/automotive/columnists/chi-0504100325apr10,0,20029- 65.column

mbukukanyau

There is a new Aveo coming that will Blow you away, if GM can get the Gas mileage right, this together with Cobalt, might be the cars that save GM
From the Upcoming Shangai Autoshow
http://images5.theimagehosting.com/Aveo1.jpg
http://images5.theimagehosting.com/Aveo.1.jpg

If I were in the market, I would wait for these to hit our shores before I bought one. Unless, it was a case of I must have a ride now">link title

bigdaddycoats

That looks hot. When will it be available here?

jojomonkeyboy

Maybe there will be a fire sale on 2005 Aveos when the new Aveos get here.

The Aveos have been out for a while, I wonder what the maintenance record on them is?

newcar31

I did not know that you could get an Elantra with all of those options for $10K. That's a pretty good deal. I think the area where the Focus excels is in driving dynamics, the ride/handling/steering are top notch and are better than some cars that cost twice as much.

About the warranty---Ford has a 100,000 mile powertrain warranty too, I'm not sure how it compares to Hyundai's.

backy

All the features I mentioned for the Elantra GLS come standard, at least in the U.S. So yes, you can get all that stuff even on a "base" model Elantra, and they are selling for under $10k--in some cities significantly below that.

Hyundai's bumper-to-bumper warranty is 5/60 and the powertrain warranty is 10/100--I think the Focus' b-to-b is a lot shorter, and the powertrain warranty is only for 5 years, correct? So if you don't put many miles on a car each year, which I don't, the Hyundai warranty is a good deal. If you put 20k on a car every year anyway, then it doesn't matter if it's only a 5-year powertrain warranty.

randydriver

It looks just like my 2004 Aveo with some restyle to the front ....but it is nice and I see it has chrome door handles as well. Is that suppose to be the 2006?

csandste

chrome on the front clip has come in for constant complaint. Everyone was looking forward to the SS setting the style for a less busy front end, and yet Chevy goes the other direction with the Aveo-- funny. (I do realize the present car has front end chrome).

FWIW-- I don't like the present Aveo sedan but do like the 5-door. The new car is an improvement for the 4-door.

mbukukanyau

I do not know when it goes on sale, though GM is saying it will launch the car world wide.. 102 countries.. Chevy seems as Global as Toyota now...

I hope to see the hatch before I decide what to get.. But this thing is hot!

ericf1

Oooh. I was going to get a Cobalt, but the new Aveo looks pretty interesting, especially with my GM discount. Side-curtain airbags available in this thing? How about a hatchback?

micweb

I partially agree. CR gave Civic and Impreza "get out of jail" tickets by not testing them now, when they would fail, on the excuse that a new model, or updates to the existing model, are coming shortly. I think they would have been better to take them off their recommended list until the real results are in. Meanwhile, the Cobalt which surprised me by passing is not recommended because it is too new for reliability stats. Personally, given the general high quality of all cars today (relative to the '70s and '80s), I'd rather buy a Cobalt passing the crash test than a Civic with a question mark....

CR's unstated bias is towards defects and resale value. That overweighs safety, features, rebates. Once you understand their bias, it is no worse (which is why I only partially agree with you) than an enthusiast magazine like Car and Driver loving a Miata despite the obvious lack of a roof and resulting safety concerns (and lack of luggage space etc.).

micweb

You said:

CR also still recommends the Civic and Inpreza because the IIHS didn't perform the new test on these models; their "ignorance is bliss" policy that gets me so angry. These two models are so old they would probably do quite poorly on this test. CR needs to be consistent and withdraw their recommendation until and unless they score "acceptable" on the new crash test, same as the Corolla (with side air bags only, mind you...).

Couldn't agree more.

alpha01

I just recently answered the Annual Survery that CR sends out to subscribers, in order to make reliability calculations on everything ranging from cars to crockpots, it would seem.

In the comments section, I went into detail about just how misleading I thought this practice is, and stated that I didnt feel it fair that the Civic and Impreza are still on the recommended list, despite NOT having been tested in the side impact, and the fact that the Civic, in all likelihood would FAIL BOTH with and without its optional (and fairly useless) chest only side impact airbags, and the Impreza would likely fail in non-WRX trim.

(The Annual Survey I am speaking of is the one that was sent via email to subscribers of CR.org, which is my subscription. I think the regular snail mail one is to be sent later on, for subscribers of the hard mag.)

~alpha

jpryba

Consumer Reports should also start basing its recommendations on another test the IIHS has been performing as of late -- rear crash protection. There are plenty of head restraints that the IIHS has rated acceptable or good, but then would get a marginal or poor rating during the 20 mph rear crash test. (If a head restraint was marginal or poor to begin with, they wouldn't bother with the other part of the test and just give it a poor overall rating.)

From the IIHS site:

"The overall ratings are based on a two-step evaluation. In the first step the geometry (distance behind and below the head of a seated average-size man) is rated good, acceptable, marginal, or poor. Seats with good or acceptable geometry then are subjected to a dynamic test simulating the forces in a stationary vehicle that's rear-ended by another vehicle of the same weight going 20 mph. Seat/head restraints with marginal or poor geometry aren't tested dynamically because they cannot protect taller people in rear-end crashes. These seats are rated poor overall."

So if CR really does care about recommending the safest car, I don't see why they shouldn't be including the results from this IIHS test as well. Then again, they may not be able to recommend much as a result, at least for now...

At the same time, though, wouldn't this pressure automakers into making their cars even safer? I would think a CR recommendation is something any automaker would be thrilled to have, and they would do what they can to make this happen.

backy

Maybe CR figures the rear impact test is not as critical as the frontal and side tests because people don't die from whiplash--which is what the rear test measures the risk of. But the rear test is easier to pass than the front and (especially) side tests--all it takes is a properly-designed seat, harness, and head restraint. Active head restraints are becoming more common now. I noticed the Korean-market Elantra (Avante) has them, for example.

alpha01

"Maybe CR figures the rear impact test is not as critical as the frontal and side tests because people don't die from whiplash--which is what the rear test measures the risk of."

A great point, and one that I completely agree with. Backy, any more info on the next Elantra?

~alpha

backy

No, I haven't seen anything new on the Elantra, except I ran into this web site the other day that confirms that the next Elantra won't be out until at least next year:

http://www.twincitiesautoshow.com/models/hyundai.shtml

One thought: since the Accent has moved into the compact class based on interior room, and the Sonata has moved into the large-car class (also based on interior room), does that mean the next Elantra will be in the mid-sized category--at least in interior room? It wouldn't take much of a bump to get it there. The Prius, for example, isn't much bigger inside than the current Elantra but is classified as a mid-sized car based on interior room. And the rumors in the press are that the next Elantra will be bigger than the current model.

alpha01

In today's Wall Street Journal, there is an article stating that CR has revised its vehicle rating scale to provide better clarity and overall information regarding whether a vehicle has scored well in its testing, reliability surveys, and in crash tests. The new ratings system is fully explained in the June issue of CR, which should be hitting newsstands by next week.

This is a good thing, as CR has recognized the deficiency of the old system that would penalize vehicles that tested poorly in crash tests but treat untested vehicles indifferently. It will be interesting to learn the details.

Unfortunately, I cant link to the WSJ article since its a pay-for site, but if anyone reads about it in another publication, please do hook us up!!

~alpha

alpha01

http://www.consumerreports.org/main/detailv4.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=592305&FOLDER%3C%3Efo- lder_id=113261&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=333137&bmUID=1115215769056

~alpha

backy

Maybe they should have used a bent/broken check mark for the first level (on this order: :sick: ), and a solid check mark for the second level?

theman123

Hello :shades:
I'm new to this forum. But I found out something very interesting yesterday while I was surfing the net. The Strategic Vision's 2005 Total Quality Index. The study surveyed 40,793 buyers who bought 2005 models in October and November of 2004 and assesses the "complete ownership experience, from buying and owning to driving new vehicles,". Much to my surprise the Ford Focus ranked very very high in the small car segment of the survey. Pay close attention to the Small car segment. I have to admit, I've always loved the Ford Focus, but since all i've heard about the car was how terribly unreliable the car was and the cost cutting so-called upgrades done for 05 it sorta turned me off to the car. Now, it might show up on my radar screen as a car I would seriously consider buying.

Your Thoughts please
Strategic Vision's 2005 Total Quality index

backy

The Focus is also rated highly by Consumer Reports, and its reliability has steadily improved over the years. So worries about major reliability issues shouldn't keep you from buying the car. If you like how it drives and like the price, why not?

Note that the Focus tied (virtually) with the Accent and Mazda3 at the top of the Small car category. Personally I prefer the Mazda3 to the Focus, and the Accent isn't comparable to either one (but it's a solid little car for the money). However, the Accent has been redesigned for '06 and looks like a great value with outstanding safety equipment for its class. But I doubt it will ride and handle as well as the Focus or Mazda3.

npaladin2000

Actually, the Accent isn't too bad of a handler...probably even better in GT trim (I borrowed my mother's base model for a day a while back).

Though with Kia doing all the sporty stuff, the new Rio will probably be the Mazda3 to the Accent's Focus.

alpha01

felt fairly clumsy in handling with artificially heavy and noticeably vague handling. But it wasnt a GT.

In any case, the Strat Vision ratings are odd because they use the word Quality in the title but factor in many measurements that have little to with workmanship/reliability... such as dealership experience and customer service.

Food for thought.

~alpha

backy

Vehicle quality, dealership quality, customer service quality.