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Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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Comments

  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Count again - there ARE 6 vehicles listed. ;-)

    I included the ECHO because it represented a significant part of the conversation, at least it used to. But we can certainly drop it if folks agree.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,687
    Then the sixth should be the Sentra or Spectra IMO.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    I say close the board. There seems to be little information exchange going on here, but a lot of disagreement as to which vehicles should be included. Pat, Im surprised that you've tolerated this as politely as you have. It seems though, that most of the more productive threads in the Comparisons board are between 2, 3, or 4 vehicles, with the notable expection of Malibu vs. others.

    In any case, this thread is hard to read, and unclear in its intent.

    ~alpha
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,687
    Three years and almost 2500 posts, and you say close it down because we're discussing how best to advertise the board to Town Hall members? How many comparison boards for low-end cars have gone this long, with so many posts? It's the only board on Town Hall that allows free exchange of info on all the low-end cars, which appeals to me as a fan of that class of car.

    If you don't want to contribute to it, that's certainly your perogative.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    The board has run its course. It really should be kept around just for historical value?

    I have no problem with people disagree-ing and if it stays, great. Its just become a bit unproductive, and repetitive. I'll stay out if you want me to, backy.

    :)

    ~alpha
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,687
    If your only reason for posting here is to suggest we kill the board, then I'd prefer you stay away. :-P
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Well...

    As long as folks are interested in the discussion, there's no reason to close it. If/when folks stop posting, it will archive itself. :-)

    Yes, we've been through some evolutions in determining what our parameters are as some members have gone and others have joined, shifting the interest. I do agree that the discussions of fewer vehicles tend to stay more focused, but we can have more broadly-based discussions as long as folks are interested in carrying on the conversation.

    And with that said, I should note that this particular conversation isn't appropriate here. Anyone who has comments about topic management should email me.

    Thanks.
  • lawman1967lawman1967 Posts: 314
    is probably not worth adding just because the car is so unpopular. The Aveo is likely to sell in far greater numbers.

    As for the others, I agree on the Elantra and Sentra staying where they are.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,687
    Aveo sales YTD through March were 7883. ION sells at a rate of over 100,000 per year in the U.S. In comparison, Mazda sold 16,689 3's YTD in the U.S. through March--considerably under the rate of the "unpopular" ION. Aveo shipments and sales may ramp up above current limits, but they'd have to come up quite a bit to catch the ION's.
  • 280hp280hp Posts: 36
    Of the cars under discussion which one has the most recalls ?

    im guessing it would be the Kia Rio or Hyundai Accent. But it could be the Focus, Aveo or Ion.

    My feeling is that the Echo will probably have had the least if any, because its japanese.

    would i b right in that ? has any1 got hard figures ?

    :)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,687
    By a landslide. There were 9 unique recalls in its first year (13 total actions but some are really the same problem), and 7 that affected 2001 models. But a good record after that. By contrast, Accent had 2 unique actions its first year, and one of those was for the 2001 models also. Rio had only one recall that I found, for 2001 models. Aveo is really too new to have had many recalls yet. If you want to see details on recalls for any model, you can get them at www.nhtsa.dot.gov.
  • lngtonge18lngtonge18 Posts: 2,228
    The Accent hasn't had a recall in 3 years and the 2 that were issued were relatively minor and only affected a small number of cars. Compared to the Focus, the Accent was designed right from the start.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,682
    that jacked Focus buyers around like Ford did. I thought I was interested in that car for a few months. After a short while the look faded into the sunset and my respect for it(and Ford)faded as well as that pup went back for one recall after another. Pitiful job by Ford Motor Company on the Focus. Why anybody would buy one absolutely floors me. Glad I never bought one!

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • 280hp280hp Posts: 36
    i had a quick look @ the jd powers 2003 figures and it seems these r the rankings by nameplate :

    Toyota 6th
    Saturn 17th
    Cheverolet 18th
    Ford 23rd
    Hyundai 31st
    Kia 37th

    But that doesnt help, since its the aggregate for the nameplates. Anyway to get the numbers on individual models ?

    This is useful @ the low end since some of the cars r rebadged and share platforms. eg ford focus, chevy aveo etc, and thier dependability probably varies quite a bit from what thier anmeplate would suggest...

    :)
  • 280hp280hp Posts: 36
    yup, i get very upset also if a car maker sells lemons.

    and actually im quite upset with not only ford (although never owned 1), but also gm.

    but it seems that their quality is improving. and if the report are to be believed, they're now not only better than the koreans, but also the germans, not that the germans sell any low end cars...

    :)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,687
    In the 2003 IQS awards, Prius was #1 in the Compact Car class, followed by Corolla and then (tie) Lancer and ECHO.

    Here's how CR ranked the top makes for 2003 models in number of problems per 100 vehicles:

    Lexus 9
    Infiniti 10
    Honda 10
    Toyota 11
    Acura 13
    Mazda 13
    Buick 13
    Saturn 14
    Hyundai 14
    Nissan 14
    Pontiac 15
    Dodge 16
    Saab 16
    Kia 16
    Jeep 16
    Average model 17

    All others were at or below average. Ford was average, Chevrolet at 19 for other low-end car makers.
  • 280hp280hp Posts: 36
    yup. getting nameplate data doesnt seem that difficult.

    but i was wondering, do you have any model specific data ? or know where to get it ?

    :)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,687
    CR's Annual Auto Issue (April) has model-specific reliability data going back eight years (if the models have been around that long).
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Posts: 1,689
    <Im quite upset with Ford...>
      Before reaching for the alka seltzler think of this. The Ford Escort was the outstanding American made low end car. The reliability was right up there with the Japanese cars. As for the Focus, although it had early recall problems, it was very highly rated as a vehicle by CR...the highest in its class in fact. I know of two Focus's that are giving great service after some initial bugs. Plus you can get one for NO INTEREST for five years and itll be less than $15k. If I had to buy a new car today the Focus would probably be it because of that.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,687
    The reliability was right up there with the Japanese cars.

    I wonder if that was due at least in part because the design was based on the Mazda Protege.

    I think the Focus is a nice small car, with an uncomfortable driving position (for me) and a price that's more than some competing cars the only real drawbacks. But I think I'm poisoned on Ford because of my bad experience with reliability on my '95 Mistake (er, Mystique) and the early history on the Focus. Once burned, it's hard to go back again--I know Hyundai found out how past reliability problems are hard to overcome in the minds of buyers.
  • 280hp280hp Posts: 36
    which is why its really important that they keep prices low, and also, start delivering dependable cars, that dont fall apart after 3 to 5 years of abuse.

    if they do, then in a decade of so, we'll all be impressed by the number of old hyundais on our roads, and they can then sell on reputation, like the japanese now, and the germans 20 years ago.

    of course if they dont they'll b another daewoo or kia, run out of money 2 pay thier suppliers and technical partners, and eventually b taken over by them.

    say, didnt hyundai semiconducter/hynix fold up recently ? and r the 2 hyundais related ?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,687
    I don't know--but I know it has nothing to do with low-end cars. ;-)
  • lngtonge18lngtonge18 Posts: 2,228
    Hyundai is a huge conglomerate company with many different branches. Hyundai Motors is tied to the conglomerate but they are a separate entity. Ever heard of Hyundai in the shipping business? They have one of the largest shipbuilding facilities in the world. Hyundai is very similar to Subaru in that Subaru is simply a small portion of a large conglomerate called Fuji Industries.
  • 280hp280hp Posts: 36
    well, i guess my concern is spare parts and warranty.

    that is if the conglomorate/chaebol had 2 divest 1 division/subsidiary, will they do so with others ?

    i think daewoo is also a ship bulider. but since the divestment of thier motor division, what happened 2 those who bought daewoo ? i assume chevy stand by their warranties and stocks their spare parts.

    also, if im not mistaken, samsung also wanted 2 get into the car business. but their venture may have folded b4 it even started and their technical partner nissan, had 2 buy them out, after they failed 2 pay bills, like kia and daewoo.

    of course, nissan literally had 2 sell their hq and b saved by the french, after that.

    but iinm, samsung still have a truck division.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,687
    Oh good, some more "It's a Korean car company, it must be going under!" stuff. It's been a long time since I saw posts like these in Town Hall. But this is not "News & Views", it's about the cars. May I suggest if you want to talk about the future of Hyundai as a car company, you start up a board for that purpose? ("Hyundai: is it long for this world?" or something like that.) Meanwhile, Hyundai the car company is doing quite well, thank you. Its cars are improving in quality and reliability each year. Its sales are climbing. (GM just cut auto production; hmm, maybe they are going under!) Their U.S. factory is opening soon. IMO opinion these do not look like signs of a company that is going under.

    So, which of the low-end Hyundais do you like better, the Accent or Elantra?
  • dispencer1dispencer1 Posts: 489
    I've rented both of them. The Accent is perfectly adequate as a daily commuter. It is comfortable, fairly basic, has adequate headroom and legroom and gets good gas mileage. Seats are OK. It handles OK and the engine doesn't feel underpowered. The Elantra feels much different -like a fairly quiet, comfortable semi-luxury car. Lots more sound insulation and a nicer interior. Still comfortable with good head and legroom and nicer interior. Hyundai is getting better and better all the time. If there was a Hyundai dealer here (which there may be because the town is growing) I'd get it in a heartbeat over anything that GM builds for the same price. The warranty is great and the cars are far better than the Aveo/Cavalier lot being sold by GM.
  • 280hp280hp Posts: 36
    i still like the accent better. based on its simplicity and more austere style. its styling cues also seem more traditional, unlike cars like the echo or elantra, which takes some getting used 2.

    also, im only willing to pay bottom dollar for korean, since ive never owned korean yet.

    :)

    ps - daewoo and kia were both also improving, with increasing sales, when they went under. it may have something to do with their corporate structure, rather than their cars. the gm structure used 2 look very good, but is slowly beginning 2 unravel. u could b right, after absorbing so many brands and failing 2 consolidate, they may also b on the way out. but the effects r unthinkable. sort of like a dolar crash.
  • lngtonge18lngtonge18 Posts: 2,228
    One correction to your relevance post. The Korean company you meant to say was Syangyong (I believe that is the correct spelling), not Samsung. Samsung is an electronics giant and is a well known name for quality and value. Syangyong was the SUV company that was bought out by Renault/Nissan.

    Kia was having problems, but since Hyundai bought a controlling interest, they have been doing much better. The fact Hyundai had the money to buy into Kia shows they are doing pretty well.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,682
    The reason I ask is that I can't believe your town doesn't have a Hyundai dealer. Actually, come to think of it, the town I live in doesn't have one either! I have to go 105 miles SW to Springfield, MO or 100 miles NE to St.Louis, MO to find a Hyundai dealer. I'm in little 'ole college-town Rolla, MO. I may not be aware of ALL of the Missouri Hyundai dealers, though. I'm still getting used to this state after living in Washington state for my first 43 years(!!)
       A few comments on the above posts. I was surprised to see 15 posts since I last visited-but not that surprised because I think "low-end" is only going to grow in popularity for Americans. Give it time-I think low-end cars are going to become more and more of a necessity for American consumers as the war in Iraq looms to be a long-term affair. Sad but looking kind of true.
       I want to add that I don't totally disrespect Ford. I have owned a '66 Ford Fairlane that was a good car that I could work on. I owned a '65 Ford Mustang that I could work on and I loved. It was NOT perfect mechanically and I didn't like it completely because of that. Always something going wrong with it. I also owned a new '94 Ford Escort wagon that had one problem...an exhaust manifold blew on it. That was fixed under warranty at no cost to me except my time. I owned a 1986 Mercury Lynx station wagon that actually caught on fire! No kidding-the steering column enclosed a faulty wiring harness that sparked on key-turn...eventually the Lynx and Escort were recalled to fix this problem. Ford needed to fix mine BEFORE the recall hit, though! BTW, my insurance forced me to pay for the wiring harness as my policy stated that the insured MUST PAY for the part that caused the problem(in this case a fire). Kinda expensive but everything got put back together all right. I did not hate the Lynx although it also blew a headgasket on me. Not perfect mechanically, either. Lastly, for Fords that I 've owned, I traded the '94 Ford Escort wagon in on a 1997 Ford Escort sedan. As I recall, not a single mechanical problem with this little sedan. Purple in color and ran like a top. I traded it in on a 1999 Kia Sephia sedan and I've been digging Kia and Hyundai's ever since.
      The only other two cars I've owned were a 1973 Plymouth Gold Duster and a 1970 Chevy Suburban SUV. One of the first large SUV's and built like a tank! I've turned my attention to the South Korean imports totally since May of 1999.
       backy-your post #1605 above is very notable in that for Hyundai and Kia is points up their big improvements of late. Funny thing is, it hit me in about the late summer of 1999 cruising in the Sephia WHAT A FUN AND ENTERTAINING CAR THIS IS TO DRIVE! I loved it and I didn't trade it out of necessity for my '01 Kia Sportage 4x4, I traded it becasue I loved it and wanted to try a new and different Kia model. My wife and I decided to sit up higher in the Sportage mini-ute and I think it's gonna be little SUV's for the next few rigs for us. The Sportage has been a wonderful SUV.
         BTW, host, I don't think this one's in danger of being put on "READ ONLY" but I just wanna put my single vote in to keep this pup around. It's a regular stop for me and always interesting.

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • 280hp280hp Posts: 36
    no. i meant to say samsung. in hindsight its silly for a company with no motor experience to go into the business, but thats how ill adviced the koreans were.

    iinm, Syangyong is owned by daimlerchrysler, or they will b when they stop paying their bills...

    s 2 kia, hyundai, its a shame that kia had 2 b saved s it drains scarce financial resources from developing new platforms and improving production quality.

    for example, daimlerchrysler seems 2 b worst off post merger...

    but backy is right, we're not talking cars anymore. perhaps we can move the discussion 2 a more appropriate part of the forums...

    :)
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