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Low End Sedans (under $16k)



  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    Has anyone checked out the latest issue of Automobile magazine? They have computer mock-ups of the BMW 1-Series. They took the open roadster concept car and gave it various roof and door layouts. The coupe really caught my eye. If the actual car looks like that and the price is $15,000 or less (as expected), my next car might be a Bimmer.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    Lng, would you please show me where a large group of people have indicated that the Accent has better quality than the Echo?

    Backy, you made a statement sometime back that implied the 2002 Accent ranked higher in the JD Powers survey than did the 2002 Echo. If you have a source, would you please post a link?
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    I want to point out that I said the editors at Motor Trend were inconsistent. It was the other side that called their supporting source incompetent.

    If someone told me, "Hey, the guy is incompetent in certain areas, but you can still trust him," I would not feel very reassured.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    Much has been made about Motor Trend saying the Accent was a better car than the Echo in terms of quality.

    Well, what do actual owners say about the body and interior quality of the cars?

    According to the JD Powers consumer site (http:///, the Accent scored three out of five stars in this area. This means its body and interior quality did not really stand out.

    Hey, this must mean the Echo did really, really bad. Right? WRONG!

    The Echo scored five out of five stars in this area. This means its body and interior quality is among the best.
  • zigliflerziglifler Posts: 99
    lng & backy

    why bother people will think what they want . you can't measure reliability by what this mag says and what that survey said . it is all hit or miss . if jd powers sent surveys to ALL new car buyers then u could use the info . but they don't . they might at best send them out to 10% and i think thats alot . you can't get a real feel for that few . Major loves his echo , and he has a right to . you are just wasteing your time and efford
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    It's clear the MT review has struck a nerve. I suggest that you learn to live with other people not agreeing with you that the ECHO is the Greatest Car on the Planet, or you will bust an artery some day.

    In case you didn't read my earlier post, I did acknowledge the ECHO's top rating for predicted reliability in CR's Small Car class. I said "The ECHO's showing in CR's list for Small Cars is impressive,...". Based on CR's latest survey, the ECHO came out better in predicted reliability than the Elantra. That is a fact. I don't dispute facts. As you said, no one really knows if the Accent and Rio would have knocked the ECHO out of the top spot for Small Cars. Maybe next year those cars will be included in CR's ratings and then we'll know.

    I don't recall making a claim that J.D. Powers ranked an Accent above an ECHO. I remember doing some kind of post a long time ago regarding J.D. Powers' online comparator, and I think one of the cars was the ECHO but I don't remember what the other car was. It might have been the Elantra; I don't think it was the Accent. If you find my post maybe you can refresh my memory.

    Here is how I rank opinions:

    1) Opinions of people I personally know and respect.
    2) Opinions based on statistical evidence from a large sample; i.e., opinions backed by facts. Surveys that are based on subjective questions, e.g. J.D. Powers and CR's, are of some value but are tainted by the subjectivity of the questions.
    3) Opinions based on first-hand, everyday use over a long period of time, e.g. like the long-term tests from and other reviewers.

    Other opinions aren't really worth that much to me except for entertainment value and to start a discussion.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,675
    Opinions are like noses, everybody has one. Did anyone say that? Look at it this way-if no one EVER gave their opinion it would get REALLY boring in here. Car magazine editors and writers can say what they want but it seems that what they say means more to those who already buy into that particular idea. I take bits and pieces of what they say and learn more from large groups of people(Internet or in person, at work, at the dealers, etc.). If my friend who bought that 1999 Kia Sephia(white) had given me the big 'ole thumbs down to his purchase I MIGHT have thought twice about joining him in the Kia Remember, these writers have their pre-conceived notions and hard-to-knock-out-of-their-heads superstitions, etc. about particular cars BEFORE they ever test-drive these shiny new beauties. Take their reviews with a grain of sea salt.

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • lngtonge18lngtonge18 Posts: 2,228
    Why is it you want me and others to buckle and agree with your findings, but when something goes against the Echo it must be wrong and you never want to admit the Echo did in fact LOSE? I would be happy just to hear you admit that simple fact. It lost, was found to have issues and not to be perfect. ADMIT IT!!

    Ok, now that I got that out of my system, let's move on. Whether you want to believe a professional over your own views is your right. However, keep in mind these people do this for a living. They drive cars that cost thousands more then the Echo and Accent and thus have access to much nicer, higher quality cars. They know quality when they see it and they know when a car has bad handling traits. The fact they were impressed with the Accent's quality means something, so does the fact they found the Echo's suspension unsettled. This wasn't the only test that found problems with the Echo's build quality either. If it was, it would give me pause. However, Car and Driver complained of much lower build quality then what they expected from Toyota. Two tests with similar findings leads to a common theme.
    I never said there was a large group of owners who claim the Accent is higher quality then the Echo. What I did say is that a lot more people are turning to the Accent and finding a car worthy of buying. In 2001, the Accent outsold the Echo by a wide margin. Sales mean something. People wouldn't buy it if it was junk. I put no stock whatsoever in what jdpowers says or CR. They simply don't poll enough owners to mean anything. I never got a JD power quality survey for my Accent nor my Lancer. I did get a JD power survey on the sales experience and service experience for the Lancer, but that's it. Out of curiousity, are you referring to the initial quality survey, or the one after a few years of ownership? If the latter, they most likely are referring to the pre-2000 Accent, which did have lower build quality. Last time I looked on there (about a year ago, before they started charging to see stuff), they had no new info on the 00-01 Accent because too few people responded to the polls. That tells you something right there about their validity. Anywho, this debate could go on endlessly. You like your Echo and hate the Accent. I hate the Echo and like my Accent. We will just have to leave it at that.
  • lngtonge18lngtonge18 Posts: 2,228
    You make a good point and bring something to light. You are correct in that magazine writers often do have pre-conceived notions about cars. That's what made it so surprising to see them place a Hyundai over a Toyota. It's heresy almost.
  • lngtonge18lngtonge18 Posts: 2,228
    What I was trying to point out was that majorthomecho was touting a "predicted" reliability rating. This means it is predicted to be a good car, but it's not known to be an absolute fact. Whether it holds up to it is anyone's guess. More then likely it will. Hyundai is still playing catch up, but the chances of getting a bad one is becoming smaller and smaller. There isn't much difference between them anymore. About the only place where I foresee Toyota doing better is after the 150k mark. I personally don't keep a car in this class that long so I don't worry about it. Would I suggest an Echo over an Accent? Only if the person cared only about long term reliability and nothing else and was the type who was scared to take a risk. I'm one that is willing to take a gamble and it has always proven to go against common knowledge. For instance, the worst used car I ever bought was a Honda Civic. My VW Fox and Mitsubishi Diamante were way better cars, but most people would say those cars were crap, especially the Fox (which happened to be the most rock solid, rattle free late 80s European car I have ever been in, surpassing even some Japanese cars and it was built in, gasssppp, Brazil!). I currently own an 84 U.S. built VW Rabbit GTI with over 200k. Most people say the Rabbit, especially the US built one, is among some of the worst cars on the road. I have owned the car for over 7 years and it has been very reliable (more reliable then my mom's 86 and 92 Accords) and continues to show no signs of conking out. It also survived me through 3 accidents, 2 of which could have been severe. I also owned an 84 Mazda RX7. Most people say the rotary engine is unreliable and a nightmare because they are afraid of anything that is different. My experience was the complete opposite. That engine was superbly reliable and completely bulletproof. I wish I still had it. Most people claim first year cars are nightmares. My 00 Accent has had no recalls and only 2 dealer repairs in 2 years of ownership. My 02 Lancer has been completely trouble free and has had no recalls. Compare that to recent 01 Civics, the 01 Sentras, and the 03 Corollas. All of them have had recalls and some sort of first year quality issues. When something like that is mentioned, the naysayers immediately defend the cars by saying "oh, well, it only affected a few and its to be expected because it was a first year model". Well, I'll be damned if I expected any problems with either of my first year cars. My experience is why I no longer believe what the "masses" say. It's gotten to the point where I think a lot of people are simply blinded to everything that doesn't have Toyota or Honda on it and are missing out on good cars in the process. But, its all good, because it keeps the prices down on the good cars that they pass up. I for one am perfectly capable of deciding on my own what constitutes a good car. I don't need a large group to tell me that. If listening to the "masses" is what makes you feel better about a purchase, that's fine, but it doesn't mean they are automatically right (and in my experience they have been dead wrong) . Anyway, hope my ranting made some sense.
  • zigliflerziglifler Posts: 99
    all i gotta say is WELL PUT.....
  • protegextwoprotegextwo Posts: 1,265
    "The 2002 J.D. Power Initial Quality Survey is out, and it's no surprise that Toyota once again is ranked as the top automaker, followed closely by Honda."
    News: Regular News: Articles
  • shriqueshrique Posts: 338
    cool, basically you agreed with what I said. The Echo has been a proven car and the Accent is at this point unproven as far as STATISTICAL sources say about reliability.

    As far as subjective things like how it rides and whether the seating position is good or not, i can't say because I'm not you but I don't like the Accent. Then again I'm overweight I have short legs and a tall spine. If I say a car isn't comfortable then it doesn't matter much to the rest of the world because my demographic is so small (GRIN)

    I know personally if I were to buy a Korean car Hundai is top on my list.

    On a side note does anyone know which Korean car has a tall roofed hatchback with pivoting front seats? I saw this at a car show and for the life of me I can't remember what car it was. I can't find any site that lists that as being an option. It wasn't a figment of my imagination it was at the autoshow in MPLS and it has to be either a Daewoo or Kia because they were in the same room together. (along with the conversion vans) Did I actually see this or am I nuts?
  • lngtonge18lngtonge18 Posts: 2,228
    I think what you saw was a Daewoo Tacuma (also called Rezzo). It was supposed to come to the US but now I guess that won't happen. A pity because it looked like a neat little wagon. By the way, what did you think of it after seeing it in person?
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    Where have I said that I hate the Accent? I just don't think that it is as good of a car as my Echo.

    And I admitted that Motor Trend chose the Accent over the Echo. AGAIN, that does not mean I agree with them.

    Lng, you seem to be arguing so strongly that professional auto reviewers know what they are talking about than I guess that means you agree the Suzuki Aerio deserved the last place finish that Car And Driver gave it in its recent comparo?
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    I don't remember which mag it was but someone did a study of ad space as it related to this mag's car of the year award. The researcher found the car of the year award went to the buyer of the most ad space. And auto magazines say they are objective.
  • shriqueshrique Posts: 338
    Thank god I thought I was crazy. The seats had a very cheap feeling to them. I think they must have made them lighter so that they would be easier to pivot. It was very tall and had gads of headroom the hatch area wasn't very large (a little less floor space than a Forester but taller) but the back seats were pretty roomy. It gave me the overall impression of "budget" but not unusually so. I didn't like the seating position (see above post for why that doesn't matter). Overall it seemed ok, it felt like it had lots of room and you could pivot the front seats to look at the rear. (I was trying to figure out if the seatbelts would work with the seats backwards and couldn't figure out how they would) sitting on the passenger side of a car looking backwards is realy odd. Obviously I didn't get a chance to drive it so I couldn't tell all. From what I remember I'll give you a list of Pro's and Con's

    Excellent headroom
    Lots of Features
    Cool Swiveling seats
    useful folding backseats (35/30/35
    Good legroom in back seats

    Front seats felt cheap (real squishy)
    driving position was low in a tall car
    Plastic felt "cheap"
    Doors made "poing" noise when closing (door metal vibrated like a drum)

    Anyway take it with a grain of salt. This was in Feb and it was one of the last things I looked at. Not that it matters anyway us guys in the USA will never see it now.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    I am still waiting to hear how people know that Motor Trend mentioning ABS in relation to the Rio was an editing mistake.

    Again, did you write Motor Trend? Did they make a correction? Or are you employed by Miss Cleo?
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    Yes, I agree that everyone makes mistakes and that includes me. But then again, I am not in the business of publishing an auto magazine.

    BTW, if I made as many mistakes as Motor Trend, I would be very quickly out the door at my job.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Posts: 1,331
    Even if I highly respected someone, I would put their opinion below those of a larger group of people IN CERTAIN MATTERS. It is because the opinion of my respected friend would be just one opinion.

    As far as how much all this talk is affecting me, the answer is very little to not at all. I am extremely, extremely difficult to upset offline and even more so online.

    The findings of Motor Trend, Consumer Reports, Edmunds, etc., are all just grist for the mill.

    Sorry guys, but you [people who post in this thread] are just entertainment to me.
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