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2013 and earlier-Honda Accord Prices Paid and Buying Experience



  • gmanusmcgmanusmc SoCalPosts: 495
    If the quote includes the 790 destination fee and any dealer doc fee, 27k plus TTL is a pretty good deal at 1300 below invoice.

    Yes, the deals should get better by end of Dec, so if you are not in a hurry, you might save a few bucks. But it may not be worth it - the current quote is pretty good if, as I said before, it includes destination and dealer doc fee.

    Bill G
  • brian125brian125 New york / S.C. myrtle beachPosts: 4,483
    edited November 2013
    From what you posted on the dealer quote. Its a good deal.

    800 below invoice for vehicle plus another 500 for flex=1300 below

    Minus dealers doc fee charge of 80 dollars and you have a deal for 720 below invoice price plus flex.

    End of Dec you will be able to save a few more dollars

    IN My area NY/ NJ you may get at best 500 below invoice price on a 2014 model with limited dealerships with flex cash.

    NY doc = 75
    NJ doc = 299 to 499

    Most people who buy the same vehicle in NJ will pay about 500 + more than you.

    2016 BMW X-5 35i, 2013 Genesis 5.0 R-spec, 2012 MB ML350

  • veersveers Posts: 79
    I've been able to get around $550 under invoice in NY/NJ plus another $500 flex with all doc fees waived, so $1,050 under invoice. His deal after doc fees is $1,190 under invoice, so the difference isn't so great at $140. Not sure if the market is softer in the bay area than in NY/NJ.
  • brian125brian125 New york / S.C. myrtle beachPosts: 4,483

    Your deal is better than most people are getting here in NY/ NJ. It may be close in price with the CA deal but most buyers in New Jersey are still paying a very high doc fee charge plus 140 to 200 more on the sale price of the vehicle. NJ Honda dealerships will not waive there doc fee charge. Some NY dealers will reduce doc's. Any Dealer that told you this is lying. Take that with a grain of salt.. If a doc fee charge is printed on that bill of sale it can not be removed.

    Going back to the CA deal .

    At 27k for that vehicle your numbers are correct on the CA deal. THE actual total is 1269 below invoice with a 80 doc fee. At $769 below for the EXL/w nav, is a good deal. I think the market is softer out there for sure. End of the month buying will see better pricing there.

    Since your shopping in the nyc area;

    Call New Rochelle on the 30/31 Try to get that 1k off plus flex. You may get a counter offer at 800 below plus flex. If thats the case decide or wait another month. This Dealership will not waive his doc fee. Unless Rochelle is looking for sales numbers that 1k will be tuff to get.

    2016 BMW X-5 35i, 2013 Genesis 5.0 R-spec, 2012 MB ML350

  • veersveers Posts: 79
    I never had a problem getting NY dealers to waive the doc fees, often they are $300 of pure profit. Not sure how NJ dealers operate, but obv it should just merge into the OTD price for comparison purposes. 30th this month is a Saturday, dealerships close early, not a great day to cut a deal. I will be out of town anyway, so I either need to close this now or wait until late December, and I'm guessing it is the latter.

    On a side note, if anyone is bored and looking for some entertainment, do what I did yesterday. Walk into a big name dealership pretending to be some poor uninformed sod who might be dim enough to pay sticker. The dealers pulled every trick in the book - lied about incentives, massively undervalued trade in to the tune of thousands of $$$, said it would be tough to do a price $1500 below MSRP and thousands above where vehicle is actually selling etc... Then panicked when I started showing that I wanted to leave, and tried to lower the price by thousands of $$$s. I feel bad for anyone who tries to buy a car by just walking into the dealer expecting to get a reasonable price. They really need to clean up this industry and head towards standardized prices on new cars.
  • Thanks all for your suggestions.

    that 27k includes destination fee but doc fee is not included, probably I can get them to waive doc fee. I am catching up with another dealer today and this one is through Costco Auto, will see how this goes. And this time I will try to get OTD price quote. I have asked couple of dealers to give me OTD price, but they are not willing unless I give them a Commitment. I feel thats ridiculous, how can I commit without knowing the final price.

    Anyways do you guys think its worth to wait till December, if its only matter of a hundred or two, doesnt make sense to wait till december. But if its anything over 500, worth a wait I guess.
  • gmanusmcgmanusmc SoCalPosts: 495
    You might be a really great person veers, but I'm not sure what would motivate you to do what you did. You must've been really, really, really bored. I can think of many better ways to be "entertained." This is all just food for thought but how can a shopper feel justified complaining about sellers being deceptive when the shopper himself is deceptive. Doesn't make sense to me. The standardized pricing stuff has been tried many times and apparently doesn't work well because they usually return to the "let's bargain" system. The Internet is available to almost everyone now so it's hard to blame sellers if buyers come in uninformed and agree to buy at a higher price without doing adequate research. Don't misunderstand, I'm all for getting the best price I can negotiate, but I don't want dealers wasting my time so I'm not gonna waste theirs either.

    Bill G
  • hogan773hogan773 Posts: 255
    I'm pretty sure you can get a match locally. I wouldn't waste a whole day going up to Boston to save a few hundred bucks.

    BE CAREFUL too...if you did go to Boston I'd ensure you have all the actual paperwork with the price details in hand through email. Recall that I had "agreed" the price with a salesman at the dealer. My wife dropped me off and all I had was my old plates and my checkbook in hand. That dealer ultimately tried to re-cut the deal by saying there was a "mistake" re the 790 destination fee. I stood my ground and amazingly they let me walk. I ended up buying at another dealer for my price later same day.

    I would hate for you to go all the way up to Boston and then have the same thing happen. It was crazy enough that I had to hold my head up high while I walked across their lot with my plates in hand and go sit at a restaurant across the street while my surprised wife had to come back and pick me up. Would be more of a pain to have to get oneself all the way back to NYC empty handed.....
  • veersveers Posts: 79
    I'd hardly call what I was doing deceptive. I was going in to see what kind of price you could expect from just walking in to the dealership and asking for a good deal. I have a lot of friends who want to do this, and ask me if they can get good value this way without "all that research stuff." I wanted to see if the deal offered would be at a reasonable value level, say with the dealer making $1,000 on the car and $1,000 on the trade, or if it would be the lamb to the slaughter level. Unfortunately it was the latter. In fact, the insistence that a clearly applicable factory incentive "does not apply" is very close to fraudulent. Had they offered me a good deal, I would have been very happy to buy the vehicle. The unfortunate takeaway is that informed buyers who shop for deals can expect to get a price a few hundred dollars over dealer cost. Uninformed buyers who listen to the dealer pitch of "come in and we will make you a great deal" (which virtually every dealer tells me, even when pitching me a deal I tell them is $600 above my current offers) are almost certainly going to get ripped off to tune of thousands of dollars, all the while being told what a great deal they are getting. It's a pretty sad system, and I think a ripe area for hidden shopper style stories showing some of the slimeball tactics.
  • veersveers Posts: 79

    That always makes me nervous, the chance of some unfortunate "error." Even with the paperwork and a deposit there are no guarantees. If I was going to spend 6+ hours travelling I would need a dealer with an A+ reputation.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 19,067
    Thank you. I had to bite my tongue.

    " If anyone is bored and seeking entertainment"

    Yeah, go to a local car dealer and find a salesperson who works on straight commission. Waste his/her time. Ask to drive four different cars that you have no intension of buying.

    Be sure to pick a busy Saturday too.

    We used to get a "stroke" like that once in awhile. It didn't take anyone with experience long to realize they had been "ambushed".

    Want a "standardized" price? Not a problem! Find one of those "No Dicker" stores and pay what they are asking.

    Oh...wait....they stores that tried that failed at that program.

    Thanks, gmanusmc!
  • hogan773hogan773 Posts: 255
    Haha I agree. Baiting dealers just for the sport of it! An interesting way to pass an afternoon.

    In some respects I like the fact that the system is still in place, and that there are many people who will pay more. That sort of "subsidizes" those of us who like to go for a real skinny deal!
  • hogan773hogan773 Posts: 255
    Isell, you gotta admit that the industry still suffers from a shady reputation.

    On a related topic, there was an article in last week's Wall St Journal talking about the pressure dealers are under with the internet, and how many are taking away commission or changing it. Also how many more resources are being put into the internet salespeople rather than the guy roaming the floor looking for walk-ins. Says that most customers are much more informed today, and most have already selected their car, model, color etc. The days of a customer walking in and saying "so what kinda cars do you have today?" are long gone.
  • veersveers Posts: 79

    It was actually a quiet store with no other business going on. Salesman claimed he was getting paid flat no commission (right...). Told me tires need to be replaced and are dead (they have 50% tread left), needs new brakes (90% left), when asked about perfect mechanical condition said dealers only care about outside of car not inside (lol). Then quoted a price $2,000 above price they would give if you would call or e-mail the store, and tried to stick to it. This isn't selling cars, this is rip off city.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 19,067
    No question, the car business has changed and will continue to do so.

    The top salespeople anywhere are those on commission no matter what the business is. Going to salary (which could happen) would reduce the quality of the people selling the cars.

    As a long time retail manager I always tried to hire the best people I could find and in order to do that, I had to pay them well and treat them like pros.

    Sadly, the average store and the average salesperson deserves the bad rap they have going. I didn't work in an "average" store but there are LOTS out there. They turn over their sales staff constantly and treat them like garbage.

    A lot of veterans will tell you..." the internet ruined the car business". In some respects that is true along with a lot of other businesses.

    So, adapt or get out! Only the strong will survive and the shoppers need to know that a business HAS to be profitable to survive.
  • hogan773hogan773 Posts: 255
    You shouldn't be surprised that dealers will low-ball a trade in. That is standard, and I don't know that it is "shady" - it is just business.

    This whole thing is just business by the way. Caveat Emptor! If customers are too lazy to do the work, then they deserve to pay more. And by the way, what do you say about the customer who pays $1500 below MSRP, and takes home the car that they want, and they are happy with the price that they paid? You think the dealer owes it to everyone to give them the rock-bottom price immediately? When I check into a hotel, do they just check me in based on the rate that I reserved of $250 a night, or do they "OWE IT TO ME" to disclose that they were just selling a few extra rooms through Priceline for $99 a night, and they are voluntarily cutting my price just to be nice? Or is it MY responsibility to check those things and cancel the old res and switch to the lower price a few days ahead of my trip?

    Believe me, I hate dealer shenanigans, but I think some of the things you claim are not "shady", they are just normal business. When you go to BestBuy does the salesman "OWE IT TO YOU" to tell you that there is a 10% off promo code that you can use on their website?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 19,067
    Quiet store? On a Sunday?....ah....OK.

    Still, you went in to entertain yourself with no intension of buying a car...right?

    The Michelins on my 2003 CRV have 50% or more tread life remaining...6/32nds yet I am about to replace them. They have lost most of their wet weather traction and are becoming a hazard.

    I'm not saying that was a sleazy store. Plenty of them out there along with customers looking for something to do on a Sunday afternoon.
  • veersveers Posts: 79
    It's not just the low balling. It's the repeated lies about car condition, and the overwhelming pressure to close a deal TODAY without thinking it over or getting more information. And then they look so morose when you leave, saying "well we have a lot of competition, once customers leave they don't come back (gee I wonder why, might have something to do with the price...) I don't think the dealer owes everyone the same price, but I do think that the initial price should be the same. Whether you call in, send an e-mail, or show up and browse, they should start from the same baseline. Then negotiate from there. Don't price discriminate because you think walk ins are a captive audience that you can fleece.

    If the hotel lied to you and said "this is the best price you are going to get," or "we are making you a great deal," and would put a huge amount of pressure on you to not walk out and look for better deals, then yes, that would also be unethical. But guess what? Hotels don't do that! The Ritz-Carlton doesn't hound you with salesmen to get you to sign at a terrible price. They could care less and just give you the price and don't negotiate. Same for Best Buy. They don't profile you on race/gender/clothing, give you a terrible price, and then negotiate down. They just put up the price and say take it or leave it, and don't pressure you into taking it. It's an informed arms length transaction, that's the way a legitimate business operates.

    Don't want to derail this thread, but my final takeaway was never let your friends go in and find the car they like and buy on the same day. Always go in first to test drive and pick a model, get the heck out of the dealership, get informed, and negotiate through e-mail/phone from a position of strength, showing a lot of patience, and not expressing too much excitement for the car.
  • veersveers Posts: 79
    Ya, I was surprised too. Big glitzy store and showroom, but completely dead. I think dealerships are seeing a lot less foot traffic and a lot more internet traffic. I certainly would have bought a car for the right price. Had they been honest in assessing my trade in, given a reasonable starting price and been responsive to counteroffers, I would have let them know my price point, and given them a chance to beat it. Of course, they would make $300 on the deal instead of $3,000, and that didn't look like the modus operandi. Then again, why should dealerships make $3,000 on a deal? Dealerships are selling a fungible commodity in a competitive market, they should earn a standard return on capital, $300 seems about right. Tires had just been checked during maintenance, and were in fine shape, easily good for another 20,000 miles. It wasn't the sleaze that bothered me, it was the casual nature of the lies and the excessive fleecing at what is considered a reputable dealership. I just feel bad for all the people who get victimized by this, it really hurts the name of what could be a great and valuable industry.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 19,067
    So, you think a store should sell a 30,000 car and make 300.00?

    Is that right? a ONE PERCENT profit?

    Have you ever owned your own business? I'm guessing not.

    Overhead is a killer along with taxes and everything else.

    I think (right or wrong) that they sized you up as a non serious buyer and treated you accordingly.

    Of course, in a perfect world every customer has to be looked at as a buyer.

    It's a numbers game. Maybe the next "up" will be here to actually buy a car.
  • gmanusmcgmanusmc SoCalPosts: 495
    I just can't see doing stuff like this - people complain about game playing and then invent their own game to play. Everyone has a right to earn a living in a respectful way. The Internet has really provided buyers with an advantage but some dealers are adapting and making it work for them too. When I need to buy a vehicle, the way I look at it is that I don't have to accept their selling price and they don't have to accept what I am offering. But usually between negotiating and getting up to speed on market conditions through sites like Edmunds, you'll arrive at something agreeable to all. I don't think it's all that complicated.

  • gmanusmcgmanusmc SoCalPosts: 495
    Now veers - I agree completely with everything you said in your last paragraph of this post.

  • veersveers Posts: 79
    Well... if you want my perfect world... here goes.

    Dealers would make 0% profit, that's right - nothing t'all.

    Dealerships would be abolished and manufacturers would sell cars directly through their websites. You could also go to their retail stores for test drives, etc... (like going to an Apple store). Used cars would be handled through private companies like carmax, not dealers. Dealers would just be paid employees of the manufacturers, i.e. Honda employees. All cars would be sold for the MSRP, unless manufacturer had a published discount in effect. Basically, buying a car would be like buying laptop.
  • gmanusmcgmanusmc SoCalPosts: 495
    You are so right Isell - many people seeking the skinny deals have no idea of what it takes to stay in business. Many moons ago when I managed a Goodyear store, if we didn't maintain at least a 20-25% gross profit, it was difficult to pay the bills. Most folks have no idea of what it takes to successfully operate a business.

  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 19,067
    OK, your perfect world!

    This very well could happen.

    You walk in, no need for a test drive is there? I didn't test drive my 2013 CRV when I bought it...waste of time.

    Pick out your car, pick a color and pay MSRP!

    CarMax is a dealer BTW!

    I agree about Apple. They don't discount anything! Want an IPad or an IPhone, you WILL pay full sticker!

    Look at how well their stock is doing. Must drive the mooches nuts!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 19,067
    When I was in my early 20's I was A Division Manager for the largest Sears store on the West Coast. We HAD to maintain our profit margins and I did just that.

    Sadly, Sears went down the drain thanks to other stores giving their product away. The Big Box stores and the Internet have ruined some formally great companies.

    Not to say they brought much of this on themselves trying to be everything to everybody.

    Even Costco makes between 5-15% on what they sell.

    When I was in the tool business we made at least a 30% markup and still, it was tough.
  • MichaellMichaell ColoradoPosts: 37,537
    While it may seem like a perfect world to buy your cars direct from the manufacturer, let me ask you a couple of questions:

    1) What do you do with your trade in? The manufacturer certainly doesn't want it.
    2) Where do you go to get warranty work done?

    Dealers are a necessary part of the selling chain .. and, they provide jobs to local citizens and contribute to the economy. Many are involved in charitable giving and foundations.

    Ford, a number of years ago, tried to set up 'factory owned stores' in both Utah and Oklahoma, where dealer laws were weak. Did not succeed.

    Want to buy direct from the factory? Get a Tesla - they don't have 'dealers' in the traditional sense.

    Now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion about Accord pricing.


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  • veersveers Posts: 79
    Car dealing is different in other retail businesses. Sears for example - manufacturer sets a price on the product and charges Sears that price, call it invoice. Sears tacks on 20% can puts a "for sale" sign next to it. Customer pays 20% for the convenience of Sears. Today, when he can just order it from the manufacturer directly in many cases, or from Amazon, and manufacturer is happy to sell it for invoice, Sears goes Busto.

    Take Honda. It sells cars to dealer xyz and charges dealer the invoice price on the car (the real one, not the sham number on Edmunds). Dealer tacks on 20%, calls it MSRP and tries to keep as much of the 20% as possible. Customer would love to go directly to Honda and buy the car at invoice. So we would then expect the same result, customer buys direct, dealer goes busto. But wait, dealers rig the laws so that it is virtually impossible for Honda to sell direct, and you HAVE to go through a dealer. This creates an artificial middleman looking for his piece of the pie, and consumers suffer.

    If car buying becomes like Apple, it will be a non-negotiable price, but it will be the TRUE INVOICE price, not MSRP. There is no need to negotiate, you are already getting the rock bottom price Honda was charging the dealer. Viola!
  • veersveers Posts: 79
    ok my last post on this subject...

    First - I would get rid of dealer laws and let the free market allocate resources.

    1. Let Carmax and used dealerships handle this. I don't have an easy way to get rid of used car dealerships. Used cars are unique and non-fungible.

    2. Manufacturers could run service shops. Or private sector could handle. No reason to commingle with new car sales.

    Ok, that's it for me on reworking the car dealership economy!
  • MichaellMichaell ColoradoPosts: 37,537
    Ok, that's it for me on reworking the car dealership economy!

    Perfect .. thanks!


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