Honda CR-V Maintenance and Repair

steve royal

vstrom,

You can rest (or drive) assured that I do not regularly drive without my hands on the wheel. If I did that, the vehicle would have been totaled the first day within the first fifty yards as it would have immediately driven off the road.

To prove the point to the technician that the vehicle pulls to the right, I had to take my hands temporarily off the steering wheel. (Don't fret, there was no one in close proximity that could have been affected in any way.) Otherwise, how can I drive the car and state it pulls to the right...is the technician supposed to measure the amount of arm strength I exhibit to maintain a straight line. Unless a driver is an invalid, the wheel can always be forced to the opposite direction that the car is pulling in order to maintain a straight line. When the Honda technician drove the car on the third attempt to address the pttr, this is exactly what he did as I watched closely.

FYI, vehicles are equipped to straighten out even with your hands off the wheel when coming out of a turn. This is a safety feature. If your vehicle does not have this feature, you should look into it as you may also be driving an unsafe vehicle.

To answer your question re: what I expect from CRV. It's simple. I do not expect my CRV to pull to the right when I accelerate to speed. I do not expect my vehicle to change lanes if I do not keep constant pressure on the wheel in the opposite direction. (I want my vehicle to change lanes when I decide to change lanes and not before.) Am I asking too much?

I have never expected a vehicle to pull to the right nor have I owned any vehicle that pulled to the right. I have owned over a dozen vehicles and driven many thousands more (I valet parked for over 10 years) since I began driving thirty years ago (without any accident attributed to me.) If your vehicle pulls to the right while accelerating to speed and continues to pull to the right as long as the gas pedal is depressed, that's for you to put up with if you choose... I refuse to. Steve

mikefm58

Could someone with a vehicle that has this symptom start a new forum?

hereinmycar

I believe all vehicles are aligned to pull slightly (not hard) to the right and away from on-coming traffic. Check out the alignment specs for your vehicle: are the left and right sides identical? Also, most newer roads slope to the right to help with water drainage. Hope this helps.

amit79

I'm debating between buying the CRV, the Highlander, and the Santa Fe. Does anyone have any advice or preference?

Thanks

jd27

I have'nt changed the fuel filter on my 2001 CRV EX, and was was interested in changing it (preventative maintainence). But I'm not sure it's location,I think it's between the engine block and the fuel injection. Can someone help me out. Thanks.

ecotrklvr

Torque steer is called torque steer because it's cause by torque. More torque means more steer. It's that simple. The effect is made more severe by the fact that acceleration forces cause one side of the vehicle to lift, and the other to squat, in response to engine torque against the road. Usually, it's the right side of the vehicle that lifts, and so the car gets tugged to the right (much safer than to the left, into oncoming traffic). You'd really have to drive several different vehicles to feel the difference that increased torque can make.

You're right that the length of the drive-shaft is a factor, because it affects the amount of peak torque delivered to the wheels - the side with shorter shaft gets more peak torque.

The old Taurus SHO (Yamaha engine) had some wicked torque steer - it was really tricky with the manual trans.

ecotrklvr

Changing the fuel filter is pretty easy, with the right tools. You'll need to get a tube wrench - it's like a 6-point box-end wrench with a slot so you can slide it over the fuel line, onto the fitting. They sell them in lots of places, including deal old Sears.

The fuel filter is easy to find, too. It's in the engine compartment, fairly high up on the firewall, just to the left of center when standing in front of the engine. It's the black thing with two metal lines connected to it.

joe249

I have a Type S RSX and it pulls to the right,but I figure,it's just a Honda thing.
My tires wear well. Do think it's just to much torque on front wheel drive?
Your dialogue here,makes me not to want a CRV.

bmgpe

I am a licensed professional mechanical engineer and car enthusiast for the past 33 years. I enjoy the beautiful mechanical engineering that goes into every Honda product. I have owned CRVs, Accords, Legends, MDXs, Honda Snowblowers, Honda Motorcycles, etc. I also enjoy doing the mechanical work myself.

The problem of "torque steer" is due to the different strengths of the two different sized front drive shafts. Typically one shaft is longer than the other because the transmission is not centered in the engine bay. Torque, or the twisting force created by the engine, is applied to these drive shafts which then apply the torque to the front wheels. The shafts actually twist slightly under heavy torque application and act as rotary springs, or more commonly called torsion bars. A longer shaft will be less stiff in rotation than a shorter shaft, and thus will twist more than the shorter shaft. During heavy acceleration, the longer shaft will wind up slightly and actually turn its wheel slightly less than the shorter shaft. In this case, the longer shaft must be turning the right wheel. While it is winding up (twisting without turning its wheel) the left shaft is turning its wheel with the result of rotating the CRV to the right. Think of it as the right wheel being several degrees of rotation behind the left wheel. Common corrections for this problem is to make the longer shaft bigger in diameter and thus stronger.

However, these shafts are made from high strength heat treated steel. They are also supplied to Honda from several outside manufacturers. There are tolerances in steel quality, shaft diameter and heat treatments.

I'll bet the answer is by using different shaft manufacturers, Honda has assembled CRVs with shafts that are "unbalanced" in strength, that is, not torsionally matched pairs. It appears most CRVs are using matched pair shafts, but some may be using mixed pair shafts. The solution is to identify the properly matched specifications and tolerances, and replace shafts in matched pairs in the affected CRVs.

steve royal

bmgpe,

Thanks for the detailed info and possible solution. I hope someone from Honda is reading this detailed info you are providing them free of charge. Have you ever considered contacting Honda with this perspective and offering to help them out for a consultation fee? I will certainly use this info in my upcoming arbitration with Honda. You wouldn't happen to be qualified as an expert witness, would you? Steve

bmgpe

Steve:

Hope I helped. I am considering buying an 05 CRV for my son this summer, and so I drove one last week but did not notice any problems. But I was in a hurry and did not push it very hard.

Honda has probably already figured this out. The more I think about it, these problems are likely the result of one batch of drive shafts from one manufacturer. I'll bet the affected CRVs were built at the same factory at the same time period. Also, I'll bet, once the batch of shafts got used up in production, the problem will likely disappear. These should be the same shaft designs that they have been using since the model change in 2002. From what I've read, the pulling problem seems limited to early 2005 production, but virtually non-existant in 2004 and earlier.

If I'm right, the solution to your problem may be simple. If just the right drive shaft (long one) is too "soft" as in "soft spring/stiff spring" which is the probable cause of the pulling condition, simply replacing the right shaft with a new good one will cure the problem. If the problem is limited to a small production run of shafts, it is unlikely a "soft" shaft will be in the Honda repair parts inventory, since this inventory should be independent of the production facility inventory.

I have changed drive shafts myself in my 92 Accord, 90 Legend Coupe and 88 Legend Sedan. The rubber boots covering the joints crack after 10-15 years and the grease leaks out. It is about one to two hours work to do both shafts in my garage. Honda will charge you probably $500 -$600 for parts and labor. (The rebuilt shafts I used were $65 retail!)

Here's the good news: if you pay Honda to change the shaft, and you get a good shaft from their stock as I'm guessing you will, and the problem goes away, what can Honda say except "We'll reimburse you under warrantee"? Either try that, or wait until they finally offer to do it for you.

A lot of my work is as an expert witness. Let me know if I can help.

steve royal

Thanks bmpge,

It makes sense that the early '05 models were plagued as I got the first one to hit my state in November, 2004.

The fact that someone out there in cyberspace may actually have figured out the SOLUTION instead of just brushing the PROBLEM aside is very encouraging. As I mentioned a couple of times on this Board, I will keep you and the others following my saga informed. I sent in the Lemon Law Arbitration request last week and I am waiting for the arbitration date. (After the test drive with the Regional Honda Manufacturer technician, Honda will not return my phone calls...hence no choice but arbitration.) Once again, thanks for all your help and if I require an expert, you will be the first to know.

One last quick question, my alignment has been out of spec twice on both occasions that the alignment was checked and the necessary realignment was performed. Is it possible that the problem that you are describing would affect the alignment of the car also? Mahalo nui loa for your help. Steve

isellhondas

I thought your CRV pulled to the right while coasting?

This is different that "torque steer" which occurs during acceleration. ALL front wheel drive cars have ***some*** torque steer. Some are much worse than others!

ecotrklvr

Everything that's been written about unequal length driveshafts is true. But it still doesn't explain the whole problem. Consider that ALL front-drive vehicles have un-equal length drive shafts, due to the fact that the transmission output shaft is never directly in the center of any front-wheel drive vehicle. But not ALL front drive vehicles show this reported amount of torque steer.

Also, don't forget that all Rear Wheel Drive cars have equal-length driveshafts; and, while they don't have torque-steer, they do have a related problem that is illuminating. On a level road, in a vehicle with an open (non-limited slip) differential, if you have the power to induce wheelspin, it's ALWAYS the right wheel that spins. Why? The engine's torque, working against the chassis, lifts the right side of the vehicle sightly, unweighting it. So the lessened weight causes the left side to get better traction, and the right side to get the wheelspin. Translating this to front wheel drive vehicles, with the drive wheels also doing the steering, this same effect leads to torque steer. The drive shaft length contributes to this, as stated by bmgpe. But it ain't the only thing going on here.

That said, what's so different about the 2005 model CR-V? Well, one thing is a newly-redesigned AWD system. VSC is new this year as well.

While we're supposing about axle-shaft vendors, I'll suppose something else. That, to pre-bias VSC's response to get a safe response to applications of a single wheel's brake, Honda may well have found it necessary to make their wheel-alignment specs different this year to take the vehicle right rather than left, when RWD is kicked in, or a single wheel's brake is applied.

This sounds a little nuts to me as I write this, but let's not forget that VSC is still in its first generation. Manufacturers haven't perfected this new technology yet. Toyota owners are having fits with throttle response in scores of new vehicles with VSC (Lexus ES330, Camry V-6, and Highlander V-6's). Just take a look at those vehicle's "Problems and Solutions" forums. While Toyota doesn't have this PTTR problem, Honda doesn't have a throttle problem. Neither manufacturer had either problem, until VSC was made standard. The CR-V also doesn't have a newly-designed drivetrain that would call into question the axle-lengths.

I want VSC on my next car, so I hope Honda and Toyota get their issues ironed out before my next buying cycling.

bmgpe

Steve:

I don't believe any drive shaft condition will effect wheel alignment. However, I think I read in another forum something about a front suspension bolt being replaced with a larger bolt which cured a recurring alignment problem. This would be consistent with an early production run problem.

As I was thinking about any other possibilities, I read the latest input from ecotrklvr who correctly states that Vehicle Stability Assist (Honda'a VST) is new for 2005. So is the 5 speed auto trans. The VSA is capable of applying braking to any wheel independently if it senses the vehicle is entering a turn too fast or if you are correcting your steering angle too late. There is the possibility that the system malfunctions under strong acceleration and applies the right front brake. But a design problem should be more consistent in all production vehicles. I will check on the system function and noted problems in the next few days.

The other change is the 5 speed automatic transmission. Usually when Honda makes a change like this during a model run, they maintain the outter dimensions so that the unit will fit into place with the same connections. There is the possibility that a drive shaft change was made to accomodate the new 5 speed. But a design problem would not explain why some CRVs have pulling problems and some don't. A simple call to my Honda parts department tomorrow will confirm or deny this. I think we are looking for a manufacturing problem, not a design problem.

Many front wheel drive cars are sensitive to wheel alignment, resulting in drifting left or right with the crown of the road. Drifting is movement while coasting. I believe this is due to the wide track (distance between left and right wheels). The wide track is necessary to accomodate the engine and transmission sitting sideways in the engine bay rather than lengthwise as in rear wheel drive cars. I think it is a combination of this wide track on a relatively light car with relatively big tires.

Ecotrklvr is probably correct as to why one wheel usually spins in a rear wheel drive car. However, this idea does not translate to front wheel drive cars because the engine sits sideways and rocks forward and backward, not left and right.

bmgpe

A simple test for the Vehicle Stability Assist malfunction theory is to disable it by removing the fuse.

armand

So there is a theory that the pttr problem is only on the early '05s. Does anyone have one built (not purchased)later in'05 that has the problem? All of us considering buying one would like to know.

fras

I recently purchased a 2004 CRV LX with Manual Transmission and am trying to figure out my fuel efficiency. We have gone through about 3 tanks of gas and am averaging about 360km and filling up about 49 litres. This works out to about 13 litres per 100km for 17 mpg. From what I've read this is extremely low for a CRV. I live in Canada and it has been about -20 for the last two weeks. I read that can impact mpg, but what I've been getting still seems ridiculously low. The car has about 17,000km on it.

Any thoughts on how much the mpg can change in cold weather or what I can do to increase it (will the dealership fix something)?

Thanks

crimdoc

Fras,

I wouldn't worry a whole lot.

The CRV engine seems to be very sensitive to temperature. I live in Michigan and bought my 2005 CRV LX in December. When we had a cold snap like the one you describe I was barely getting 20MPG on the highway and well under 20 in the city. However, when the weather warmed up (to +5/+10C or so) my highway MPG jumped up to about 26 - and that was while hauling a few hundred pounds of furniture.

I doubt the dealership will do anything right now ... if you're still getting this kind of fuel economy when the weather warms up I'd approach them with it then.

ecotrklvr

Nice thread here! Thanks for correcting me - it's VSA for Honda, not VSC (that's Toyota's name for it).

For the record, I'm not saying the PTTR is caused by the VSA causing brakes to be applied. I'm saying that, in adding VSA to a car, the design engineers may well have wanted to pre-dispose the vehicle to recover from a skid (when VSA IS applied) by going right, rather than left. They could easily do this with adjustments to the camber, caster, and toe specs for all 4 wheels. The alignment affect the vehicle whether VSA is activated or not. Can anyone verify if these alignment specs changed from '04 to '05?

Now I wonder if the CR-V's built for England have PTTL?

varmint

Okay, okay, okay...

It looks like I'm going to have to do an FAQ on this subject.

What is PTTR?

The problem with pulling to the right is when the vehicle tries to turn when you are holding the wheels steady and straight. It is most definitely a pull. It is not a drift.

If the vehicle is drifting off to the right only when your hands are off the wheel, you do not have PTTR. Maybe ADD, though. :-)

Torque steer is not the same thing as PTTR. As described in post #2537 (and many others), torque steer is a problem with many FWD vehicles with a transversely-mounted engine. PTTR will happen even when your foot is off the accelerator. Torque steer will not. If your car only pulls when you have your foot hard on the gas, you are causing torque steer. You do not have PTTR.

How long has PTTR been around?

Since the CR-V was introduced to North America in 1997. In other parts of the world, the CR-V was available as a 1996 model, but I'm English-only so I haven't been able to check for PTTR in non-english markets. Anyway, I read reports of PTTR back to 1998 when I first starting looking into the CR-V for purchase. Please note, the 1996-2001 CR-V has a completely different engine, chassis, and suspension (double wishbone vs Mac strut) versus the 2002-present models.

Can it be fixed?

Yes. But not it's not always easy. Some owners have solved PTTR by simply rotating their tires. Some have fixed it with a full four-wheel alignment. Some fixed it by changing their tires completely. Many have reduced the pull, but not fixed it completely with those methods. For others, none of these changes have fixed it.

What has Honda done about it?

The PTTR problem appears to have a variety of causes. So it is difficult to provide one fix for the issue. In January, 2003 Honda issued a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) on the subject. This is TSB# 03-004. Honda reported that a poorly aligned damper spring (or the bump stop flange) can cause the symptoms we know as PTTR.

That said, this TSB was published for a range of VIN numbers, restricted to 2002 and 2003 CR-Vs. As we know, the problem shows up in CR-Vs going back to 1997 and even now with 2005 models. So, it appears this change fixes one of the causes for PTTR, but not all.

Here's the VIN range.

2002 CR-V 4WD (auto) - All England produced (VIN begins with SHS)
2003 CR-V 4WD EX (auto) - From VIN SHSRD788.3U100001 thru SHSRD78X.3U108790
2003 CR-V 4WD LX (auto) - From VIN SHSRD788.3U100001 thru SHSRD78X.3U108913

What should I do if I have PTTR?

Take the vehicle to a dealer/mechanic and work with them on a solution. After 250 posts on the subject in various threads, I think we can safely assume that additional posting about it will not get us any closer to a solution.

bmgpe

As a follow-up, I checked with my local Honda dealership parts department, and they confirm the 05 CRV uses the identical drive shafts as used in the 04 - same part numbers. So no new drive shaft design exists for 05.

hamman1

Steve;
Since I have had the Honda dealer touch up the alignment it seems better but not perfect. I could live with it now but over the next few months I'm going to keep complaining.
What I meant about foot off the gas is, when this is done, there is no torque applied to the front tires so the PTTR will seem less pronounced. I'm told that the CRV has equal front drive shaft lengths so there should not be any torque pull under acceleration as in other vehicles with unequal length drive shafts.
Other than that the vehicle is great and 25MPG wow!
George

steve royal

George,

I'm glad to hear that the alignment helped on yours. I had mine aligned twice and tires rotated once. Unfortunately, neither helped. I'll keep trying all options until it's fixed. Like you say, it's a shame because other than the vehicle going right with a mind of its own, the CRV is everything else I had hoped for. Oh well... Steve

steve royal

isellhondas,

You wrote: I did ask the guys in service and they knew nothing about this "problem" you talk about. (referring to the problem of CRV pttr)

I trust you are providing the 'guys in service' with all of the valuable info varmint took alot of time to post. It's a shame that all of this info that people on this Board post (such as service bulletins) are not considered by the people servicing the CRVs (at least wherever you are at). BTW, which dealership is it where you asked the guys in service that replied they had never heard of the problem. I'd hate for all of the Honda dealers to be labeled as having responded that way. Steve

sek4mlk

Anyone know the torque spec for the lug nuts on an 02 CRV?

tntitan

I am 99% positive it is 80. Our 2002 CRV-EX has 60K and I always loosen and retighten the lug nuts to 80 every time the tires are rotated. I have never had any problems with brake pads or rotors to this point....all still operating well with original pads and rotors.

Just to throw in my $.02 on PTTR. We had a slight PTTR problem when the vehicle was new. I took it to the dealer and had them check the alignment. They rotated the tires (which helped some...but not enough) and said the alignment was within Honda parameters. I demanded that they realign to exact spec and not just "within Honda parameters". Rotating the tires and realignment eliminated about 70-80% of my PTTR problem. At 18K miles I replaced those horrible Dueler tires with some Michelin tires from Costco and now the V tracks perfectly down the highway with zero pull to either side. Of course I do have a small amount of torque steer if I tromp the accelerator but not much reason to be doing that driving a CRV.

rkira

Around the same time that this first occurred, my check engine light turned one. It consistently turns on for a while and turn off for a while. When I accelerate, the cars jitters, but a quick burst of acceleration seems to clear it temporarily though.

Someone suggested it could just be the spark plugs but I heard a whole list of problems from someone else. Any thoughts on what this could be? Thanks for your help.

varmint

Afraid it could be a lot of things. We can give you list of stuff that *might* fix that problem, but with so many possibilities I think this is one of those that requires popping the hood and futzing around. Take it to a mechanic you feel good about and ask them to check it over.

bmgpe

As a follow-up, I checked with my local Honda dealer for the wheel alignment specs for 04 (no VSA) and 05 (with VSA). The specs are identical as follows:

Camber Front: 0 degrees, 00 min. +/- 45 min.
Rear: -1 degree, 00 min. +/- 45 min.

Caster Front: 1 degree, 45 min. +/- 1 degree

Total Toe-in Front: 0 mm +/- 2 mm
Rear: 2 mm +2 mm/-1 mm

phuntsinger

Im not very happy with my 04 CRV I had bought an 01 and loved it and traded it in on a 04 with an extended 100,000 mile warranty. Last week it blew up! Honda Care wont cover the new engine because they say there is "sludge" build up in the engine, what the heck? My husband is a mechanic and we change oil every 5000 miles on ours CRV. My husband thinks the oil pump went out of it, but NO lights came on till after it blew up! IF you talk to Hondas so called expert mechanic its our fault for not changing the oil often enough! What a joke. Just a caution to all of you out there DONT buy the extended warranty they cover NOTHING! The cost of a used engine with 12,000 miles on it is going to be in the ball park of about $3500.00! Plus the labor for tearing it down and putting it back in, and the cost of towing it to the nearest dealer.

stevedebi

When you do your own maintenance, you have to keep receipts for all your oil and materials.

For those of us who use dealer service, it would not be a problem. Those using services like Jiffy Lube should keep their receipts. Honda care will pay if you can demonstrate that you actually performed all required maintenance.

Also, be sure to buy the recommended oil viscosity & etc.

mikefm58

The extended warranty doesn't apply on an '04 with 12K miles. That would fall under Honda's basic warranty. But you still need to have some kind of a receipt showing the oil was changed.

If you're husband is a mechanic and he changes the oil himself at work and just pays his place of work for the oil & filter, then I think you're SOL.

I'm a do-it-yourselfer too, but until the warranty runs out, I have the dealer do the oil & filter changes, very cheap insurance.

Why doesn't your husband the mechanic do the work himself since you're warranty is void now?

kyfdx

There has to be more to this....

The service interval on the CR-V is 10K miles.. If the car had 75K miles, and they said you only changed the oil every 15K miles, thereby skipping 2-3 oil changes, that would be one thing... But, even if they claim you never changed the oil, you are only 2K over the first change interval..

Unless they are claiming you never checked the oil and ran it two quarts low for the entire time.. I don't see how they could refuse a repair....

But, then... I'm not there looking at the car either... Maybe it shows some sort of major abuse.. (though, I'm not sure what that would be).

kyfdx

Now that I re-read the original post... she doesn't say her CR-V has 12K on it... The 12K is on the used engine they are looking to put in it....

I'm guessing they are over the 36K warranty..

So, just forget everything I said.....lol.

mikefm58

" So, just forget everything I said.....lol "

Ditto for me too......

coudiebug

I hope that you're right and there is more to this story. I'm about to plunk down about $1,000 on an extended warranty to my '03 CRV and cringe at the thought of having a story like this one.

I tend to agree that if you have the dealer do all the maintenace work and have records, it's awfully difficult for Honda to argue negligence, etc. Nonetheless, not very re-assuring to hear.

isellhondas

Very unusual...

kyfdx

Well... I would never bother with a Hondacare extended warranty, if the dealer wasn't doing the service..

I know it isn't required, but if you want the most out of that warranty, then that is the way to go...

02crvsanjose

I have a 02 CRV that i just filled with gas, but the fuel gauge is not moving from E -> Full... has anyone seen this?

mikefm58

My gas gauge on my '99 CRV moves REALLY slow when I fill up, it always has. Takes 2-3 minutes to move all the way to full.

kinko

The TSB is to replace the motor-mount and the strut on the right side where the noise was from when my 02 makes a left turn. Hope this could help those with the same problem.

armand

It is not clear to me if the PTTR and Fire problems are just with the early '05's or do they continue with the more recently built ones? For those of us who are considering buying one this is an important question.

varmint

Both extend well before the '05 models.

PTTR has been around since 1998 (at least).

The fires started with the 2003 models and seem to have stopped or, at least slowed way down, with the 2005s.

armand

Thanks for your reply but my question really is do the newer '05's have these problems? i guess you answered my question for the "fire problem" but how about the PTTR?

varmint

What's newer than 2005?

Below is a link with the condensed story. Take a look. Running changes to the production line are not made overnight. If there were such a change, another TSB would have been announced. I have not found any such thing.

varmint, "Honda CR-V Owners: Problems & Solutions" #2549, 14 Mar 2005 2:08 pm

ejw

Hi,

When I'm on a steep hill and the 4 wheel drive engages, my CR-V makes a loud whine. It only lets up if the steepness decreases. Does anyone have any ideas about this? It only happens on a steep hil.

isellhondas

Depends on who you listen to. Our shop has changed the oil in, literally, hundreds of CRVS and we have never had a fire. Others in these forums rag on this issue.

But then, I've never felt one pull to the right either. The numbers of cars affected are very, very small compared to the numbers of cars sold. Forums like these will attract those with troubles. This applies to any make or model.

crvforme

Has anyone try Osram Silverstar (european version and US version) or Phillips Vision Plus or GE Nighthawk in 2002 CRV? Do they in real life put out 50% more than stock as advertised? My goal is to have more light (lumens) output. Color temperature change such as whiter light is of no use for me. Thanks.

theracoon

Has anyone try Osram Silverstar (european version and US version) or Phillips Vision Plus or GE Nighthawk in 2002 CRV? Do they in real life put out 50% more than stock as advertised? My goal is to have more light (lumens) output.

I've had Osram Silverstars (which I bought from an online store in the UK) in my '99 CR-V for over two (2) years. Are they significantly brighter than the original bulbs? No, but they are brighter. They light the road well without me having to worry about blinding on coming traffic.

JM2C